You can have a transponder that does nothing to control the vehicle - it just transmits an ID. Seems like that is the way to go. Here is my info, but "Suck It" for hacking my actual controls. *shrug*

People can't even be bothered to use two accounts for surfing and installing software, and you think different functions in cars would be airgapped?

Sad but true.

But the harsh truth is that if all you need is a transponder to transmit metadata, you do NOT need that same device to be enabled for vehicle control. And if you ARE enabling it to control a vehicle, you are really, really dumb. Implementation of Wireless in SR5 is asinine.

So had my first session last night and we all had a ball! I brought up my questions before we started and this is what the GM decided. (She had a lot of these questions answered already. Apparently she's not at all happy with the Rigger section in the book. Her exact words "It is barren and missing vital information.")

If I want to be direct connected to a Rigged Vehicle via VCR-Vehicle, I would resist biofeedback damage with Wil+Vehicle Device Rating(Firewall)+VCR Rating. (Which is 10 dice for the Rover.) This system basically scales to the Vehicle and is impossible to hack since it is a closed system.

But, I can go VCR-RCC-Vehicle with a cable and get better results with firewall and added programs on the RCC and decide to turn off wireless if I'm being hacked and we need to beat feet out of there. (Which Happened btw. Our Decker had a couple glitches and failed me.... )

Basically what she decided was that if I'm using VCR-RCC-Vehicle while Jumped in via Cold/HotVR I can simply switch off the Wireless on my Vehicle and RCC to cut off the Decker.

Reaction is always used for my Pilot(Whatever) Skills. Even in VR, just easier that way.

I can spoof a wireless signal from my Van with one of my Micro Drones using my electronic warfare skill for tests if someone is curious.

Gunnery was figured out before I arrived, thanks for that everyone! I had to scribble corrections in my book but oh well!

Also when I arrived she crossed of my Vulcan Leiglord RCC and wrote in Lonestar Remote Commander so, Ok, Cool! & gave me 3 more skill points to put wherever.

Apparently the others have been playing for over a year now and had a lot of Karma and Nuyen put into their Characters.

The chip transmitting license information, the audio system, tire manometers, and the ignition are just pieces of a whole interconnected system. Or in SR terms, a node. You could argue that the truly vital stuff like steering is boxed in another system or has an extra layer of redundancy, but the rest is ripe for picking once you have gotten past the firewall

Only if you allow it to be.

Sure, but why wouldn't I?
It's not unrealistic to have everything connected, an increasing number of people even have their heating and other appliances available over the internet (and not always secured). Arbitrarily declaring "nah, that is separate" is like an insurmountable waist-high wall or an indestructible door: you are showing players a carrot of freedom and then tell them they can't do anything you don't like. It may be okay when needed for the storyline, but in general it's just annoying.

Also, what you can do your players can do, too. Enemy hacker wants to shut down my drone? I'm sorry, shutting down and general control are two different chips in the same device, and he only hacked the general control one...

it would limit actions, true, but as you note it limits things for both sides and seeing as how one of those sides has the resources to sick hacker armies on the other, and that side is not the players, they shouldn't be complaining too much...

and in any event, i'll take limited actions resulting from people making reasonable decisions over people connecting their gun's trigger or their spinal cord to the internet any day.

I have no issues with a Player saying "that is just stupid, why would I ever allow that to be done to me" and then fix it. Yes, there are a lot of ignorant people who have absolutely no idea about security. That does not mean that those who DO have an idea about it should just sit on their hands and allow themselves to be vulnerable. That is the height of stupidity. If you can easily increase your security by 1000%, why would you not? In 5th Edition I am sure that the hackers are furious with my characters, because they do not put ANYTHING on the Matrix except the throw away Commlink (When they have to) with no data on it other than SIN. NOTHNING is wireless enabled, because it is beyond stupid. IF you don't give a gateway, you CANNOT BE HACKED WHATSOEVER.

Your example is perfectly fine with me. I just shoot down drones... tends to be faster.

see, this makes sense to me. irl, i'm not anybody special. i probably won't have anyone try to break into my house, i most likely won't have anyone try to steal my car, and it's fairly unlikely that anyone will steal my debit card.

nevertheless, i still try to lock my house doors, lock the car door, and protect my PIN.

if i was a successful professional criminal who routinely attracts the attention of angry people with lots of guns and few reservations about using them (most of those reservations amounting to "make sure you don't hit the prototype he's carrying, we want that intact"), i cannot help but feel that i would take measures somewhat beyond those to protect myself and my property. if i was a professional soldier or security company employee responsible for dealing with such people, i would likewise be inclined to take extra measures. more to the point, if i was a person in charge of minimizing risk for a company or military organization that could routinely expect to face all kinds of combat, i would expect to take preventative measures there as well.

in most areas, there is pretty good verisimilitude there. people in those groups tend to wear armour and carry guns, they tend to keep an eye out for dangerous situations and threatening individuals... but according to the books, apparently are complete idiots when it comes to matrix security. if this was 1970, sure, fine, no problem. but it isn't. this is 2070. computers have been around for a long time. the internet (or matrix) has been around for a long time. during that time, there have been multiple occasions of the entire thing going up in flames and burning much of the world down with it. the most recent was a few years ago, and the second most recent was only a few years before that.

the average schmuck on the streets should be mildly concerned that his commlink may come alive in the night and try to smother him to death with his own pillow. people in security related fields should probably be paranoid enough to have an EMP killswitch in every electronic device they own by this point, and should probably be secretly convinced that the matrix is actually a portal to hell that exists solely for the purpose of tormenting humanity.

Looks like we tend to think a lot alike in this instance, Jaid. Too bad the developers can't see the sheer ignorance that their choices have created. *sigh*

I really think it stems from the desire to give Hackers something to do in combat... sad, really, because my hackers have NEVER had a shortage of things to do in Combat, and combat hacking of cyberware to take it off line has NEVER been on that list. It is just stupid, especially when I can far more easily just shoot the fragger instead.

I still have a hard time believing that a hacker can get access to someones cyberware. That makes not one bit of sense to me. Why does cyberware have wireless access to begin with? Isn't it wired INTO your body? If it needs diagnostics hook a computer up to it with a damn cable!

Exactly...
But the exalted Line Developer has decreed it, So... Let it be Written, Let it be Done.

i'm not *that* bothered by diagnostics... i mean, if we presume that there are basically RFID tags in there which check temperature, monitor the flow of electricity, test the blood for possible leaks, etc, i got no problem with those being wireless (albeit very short range) personally. if by "diagnostics" you mean "the ability to make a cyberlimb move through a series of motions to test how well it is functioning", then i agree that diagnostics being wireless at all is silly.

what bothers me is that the controls are hooked up, as well as for some unfathomable reason apparently the power supply, including for some even more unfathomable reason a system to make the whole thing get a short circuit or something.

but then, this discussion has been done dozens of times already. i doubt there are too many people who want to have it again

apparently it makes perfect sense to some people, and to others it's acceptable game design even though it doesn't make sense to them either. they're welcome to play how they like, of course, i just find it breaks immersion for me =S

It has indeed...

We were talking about vehicles, not wireless reflexes or magic batons. Cars already a huge gestalt of interconnected electronic systems, some of them wireless (keyless ignition, pressure sensors, bluetooth radio) and all of them connected via bus systems like CAN, which were not designed with security in mind.

As a hypothetical but not unrealistic example: Your radio has Bluetooth to connect to your phone. It's also running on the same computer as the car's navigation system, which is connected to the wheel sensors (for better positioning), which again supply data to the ABS, ESC, or airbags. By exploiting a flaw in the radio software, which is accessible bluetooth, an attacker can tell the ABS that all wheels are locking and it needs to release the brakes.

None of MY Cars have any of that crap in them... Seriously.

No Bluetooth Radio and NO Cell Phone. No Navigation System (I use an actual MAP when I needs to find a location - Imagine that), and the Computer is not wireless. No Wheel Sensors or ABS. Not sure what an ESC is. But good luck trying to tell those non-existent Wheel Sensors that they are locked through my non-existent Bluetooth connection in a radio that could care less.

Nice for you...or maybe not, if you indeed have a car without ABS or airbags. But anyway, cars manufactured after Shadowrun 1 was released generally have a bunch of electronic controllers, and the first proof-of-concepts for hacking cars over Bluetooth were around the time SR4 was released if memory serves. For a more current perspective, since the 1st of this very month all new cars sold in the EU are required to have tire pressure sensors. Want to guess how (moving) wheels talk to the dashboard?

PS: ESC = Electronic Stability Control, the thing Mercedes' A class didn't have...

PPS: From what I've been told, one of the reasons said new regulation caused little to no concern among manufacturers was that the same system has already been mandatory for trucks in the US for some time. So I can still hack the truck behind you

@TJ:

There's only so long that you can get away with having a flip-phone; lots of technology (and I think a theme of SR in general) is that the increased connectivity of things in the world has tangible benefits, but you basically have to be a luddite if you want to remove them from your life completely. It would be the norm for 99% of vehicles on the road to have that vulnerability. Why on earth would a corp invest extra nuyen into protecting a product from a "hacker", of which there are maybe 10,000 in the world capable of getting past it's inherent firewall? It doesn't make financial sense.

"But Dr. Z", you say, "I would never allow myself that level of vulnerability!" Well, unless you are capable of manufacturing a car by yourself, or getting something 90+ years old running, I think it's going to be tough sledding to make that argument. "Always On / No Opt Out" is something that is happening *today*; it's only a matter of time before it becomes ubiquitous. Having a desire to keep your privacy is difficult when it's expected that you are basically broadcasting your SSN at all times while traveling through any neighborhood nicer than East Cleveland.

At your game table, it's completely plausible that this level of dystopia isn't in effect yet; however I think the setting in general has been going in that direction, so to argue some loophole feels like tilting at windmills at this point.

to be clear, i have no problem with some random guy's car broadcasting all kinds of information, or even having sensors and such able to connect wirelessly (constantly broadcasting to the matrix seems a bit sketchy, but whatever).

it's when the security professionals have their steering wheel and gas pedal connected to the matrix (supposedly) that it starts smelling fishy...

What is a Flip Phone?

It has nothing to do with being a Luddite... It DOES have a lot to do with not believing that I need to be connected 24/7/365. If I want news, I watch the News or go online to get a feed. If I want to listen to music, I turn on a radio or CD player or Media Player. If I want to take pictures, I use my $2000 camera (that was designed for such things) rather than a POS I-Phone. If I want to watch TV, I turn on a TV. My Cars have very few of the electronics bells and whistles because I have 3 perfectly fine cars that do not need replacing and are old enough to not have any of the Electronic BS (Theuy have Cassette Decks, after all, and only one has an after market CD player - Which is still not Wireless/Bluetooth enabled). I Do have Impact Bags, but good luck tripping those wirelessly, since they are not connected to anything that would allow it. They are Impact triggered.

I think that you sorely underestimate the number of people who can bypass the firewall of a simple car in SR3+ (SR5 makes it more difficult, to be sure with its ludicrous buy in to Hacking). But it is trivial to protect against, so why would you NOT do so? Or would you just leave your stuff unsecured and transmitting so any schlub could use whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted? Yes, some people do that, and they are ignorant for doing so (I am not one of those people). Those who understand the concept of security tend to take far more precautions. Those whose lives depend upon secure equipment are paranoid about it. As for transmitting an ID in required areas? That does not require that you hook the transponder to your control interface. That is so completely ignorant that I have a hard time even contemplating such a stupid thing. *shrug*

Point is that you can Mod your vehicle in SR4 to remove those vulnerabilities and it is pretty trivial for Shadowrunners to do so. Likely to be able to do so in SR5. So the argument is really not all that valid. Anyone who is a career criminal would be criminal (heh) to leave those vulnerabilities open. Especially a professional like a Shadowrunner, Corporate/Governmental Security and/or Military operatives. It just begs for you to be killed. So, when you can eliminate said vulnerabilities (and usually with little to no difficulty), you do so because it is a survival mechanism.

Yes, the Dystoipia is there, but you can work around it if you care to do so. Most people won't because why should they bother... the man has beaten them down to the point of casual acceptance at best and hopeless abandonment at worst. Does not mean that those who require tighter security to survive won't take steps to protect themselves.

Yes, THIS... Thank You.
It. Just. Won't. Happen.

How do you two imagine GridGuide works?
-DrZ

Can't you use Grid Guide through your Commlink as an AR overlay? I still have a hard time accepting that a professional criminal would be so accepting of a huge flaw in their security. Especially a criminal that has their core focus on vehicles and driving.

Your Shadowrunners drive on Gridguide? Wow, Why?
Probably works well for the drone with no clue or care. For professional Criminals, they either use it to fit in (and thus hope that the masses cover their indiscretions) or they don't. AS a Shadowrunner, I tend to favor the Don't when it comes to a run.

Hah, on our last run we had a problem just like that Tried to find a stolen truck that had some RFIDs on board. We even got as far as the car node, but it was almost useless, just a transceiver. Radio was off, no connectivity to any microphone within the cab, even the pressure sensors in the wheels were gone (I couldn't even check whether the load was still there...). Bugger, really. Then we hacked another car right behind the truck to at least get visual feed. Also, the gunbunny got en route with her motorcycle.
That reminds me... next session, I've got to check whether the truck is just modified down or actually a suped-up throwback. A throwback would open those guys up to an EMP attack

Yes, some people are still security conscious. All things considered, to me, it's mostly measuring the benefits to the dangers. I sure like my smartphone. I still don't do banking business with it.

My favorite character, though... he's all about wireless communication. Helps to fill his overall support role.

There's some disconnect here that I'm not getting my point across. Right now, your GPS tells you when to turn. In 5 years, your car will stay in a lane while you drive down the highway. In 10 years, it will likely be able to drive itself. In 60 years, do you think that an OEM is not going to hardcode self-navigation into it's vehicles for "convenience"? My point (my original point, which has somehow gotten lost) is that cars are going to be have wireless connectivity, and that connectivity is going to attach to every important feature of the car.

For the purposes of creating a game (which this is) the writers have simplified that into one overall "wireless on/ wireless off" functionality. If that is not discrete enough for you that's fine; I happen to disagree that gameplay is improved by arguing the intricacies of how difficult it is to hack your powertrain through your car's bluetooth when a hacker is able to navigate in virtual reality through a 3D representation of your car's electronics like Johhny Mnemonic.

They have also simplified it with a Modification called "Manual Controls and Grid Guide Override" and the ability to turn wireless off. So, if you choose to have a life of crime, and you do not opt for Wireless Off and Manual Controls, you deserve to be screwed with wirelessly.

That is one of the ways that Shadowrunners screw with their unwary targets. They should not be surprised when it happens to them if they don't take precautions (and turning Wireless functionality OFF is the easiest and fastest way to secure a device). There are even rules for disabling wireless right in the book, and it isn't all that difficult. Those who choose not to do that deserve what they get. Not sure why you have such an issue with that.

- gridguide is not a requirement. most cars have it, but none are required to have it.
- most cars will have that stuff. army vehicles almost definitely won't by default. security stuff sometimes will, and sometimes won't (with the ones that do have that stuff likely being little more than regular vehicles with guns bolted to them).

i mean, i expect turning wireless off to mean that my car can't communicate with the matrix to get navigation information. that's not a problem. it just bothers me when gear, especially gear designed for use by security-conscious people, relies on the matrix for basic functions when not necessary.

like i said, it doesn't bother me that stuff made for the average person uses the matrix more than is necessary. it *does* bother me when my shadowrunner can't find gear that you would only need for shadowrunning or similar activities that has basic functionality depend on being connected to the matrix, and that they can't find gear modified to function at full capacity without the matrix even if the basic model was originally designed to be sold to the average joe.

so, for example, it doesn't bother me too much that a smartgun system is designed to take advantage of the matrix. it does bother me somewhat that the most basic functionality (helping you hit your target) is dependant on the matrix, and it bothers me even more that nobody has designed and started selling smartgun systems that help you aim without the use of the matrix at all - not criminals, not government organizations, not corporate special assets, nobody. it just doesn't even exist. nobody in the world has apparently thought to take the time to make the smartgun system self-sufficient. and that just seems silly.

Because Joe Average does it. And even when playing it low key is no longer an option, the GridGuide stuff still sits inside the vehicle.

That's my point. Even if there was a large enough market to remove it (which there isn't, really); OEMs would still have it installed by default, even in security-grade vehicles.

The chance of a hacker (again, someone who is skilled enough to get past a security vehicle's firewall is rare, especially if there's a rigger involved) hacking the car is far outweighed by the ability to smartly and quickly dispatch vehicles to a location, remotely control them, track them, etc. etc. etc. Shadowrunners are what- 1 in 100,000 people? 1 in a million? Whatever population number you use, 99% of what security responds to are normal mooks found under the "mouth breather" section of the handbook. Just because you're paranoid (which is a completely reasonable position, btw) doesn't mean that vehicles in the setting work exactly like you want. I'd like my car to be able to scramble cop's radar, but that doesn't mean it comes factory default, or is even possible to get it aftermarket.

why do security forces need to remotely control cars to a location, when they can just send route information to the commlink of the officer driving the car?

i mean, do they frequently have a need to send empty cars to a crisis location or something? i can't imagine why they would.

furthermore, the skills aren't likely that rare. the equipment is relatively speaking rare over all, but that doesn't mean it's rare within a specific field; anti-tank weapons are rare too, but that doesn't mean a military organization never has to worry about them because they're so rare, rather it means that the military organizations are the only ones who *do* have to worry about them most of the time.

same thing with security forces. sure, the schmucks you call to scare off the kids spraying AR paint all over your building don't need hacker-proof gear. but the SWAT teams? they need it. corporate HTR teams? they need it. military? they probably need it most of all. anyone who ever expects to face opponents that have hackers? they have a need for it, too.

in the specific example of general-purpose vehicles, it's not too bad. however, in the example of, say, smartgun systems installed into vehicles, it's very odd. if we step away from rigger-related stuff for a second and discuss wired reflexes and reaction enhancers, it's *extremely* odd, because the only people who have those sorts of things are the sort of people who are expected to do something about those with the resources to hack stuff. which leads to the conclusion that some vehicles should be designed to cope with that; for example, a security vehicle designed for a rigger to pilot it from the inside should have a jack that lets a rigger connect directly from themselves to the vehicle without any RCC in between, with no need whatsoever for an external wireless connection of any sort (although depending on the level of security and paranoia of the organization or individual owning the vehicle, it may very well be fully *capable* of having wireless enabled as well, potentially up to and including remote control if the vehicle is intended to ever be useful as a drone as well).

1. Because security specialists don't pay the bills; the accounting department does.

2. A lesson from real life: everyone who drives 'knows' that manual transmissions are significantly better for control and maneuverability, and you've got to have four wheel drive for the rough roads. Yet if you look in most law enforcement vehicles you will discover they're using automatic transmissions and two wheel drive. Why? Because an automatic requires one hand on the wheel and one foot for gas/brake and can be driven easily even when you're injured and trying to do other things, and four wheel drive is rarely needed. So letting the pilot plus maneuver autosoft drive means the officer riding can be doing a lot of other things in preparation for the upcoming contact. It means I can hire officers with other skills and put them on the street. And if it's a swat team/HRT I can fill a vehicle with a team plus one person who just stays with the vehicle, or I can replace that driver with another out-of-vehicle response specialist.

3. About driving your own vehicle, here's the way I play it as a GM in my world. The grid knows where your vehicle is. It knows from self-reporting. It knows from roadside sensors. And it knows from reports from nearby vehicles. When you tell the system you're going manual the grid assumes 'normal' human reactions. You get more space as every vehicle around assumes you need human reactions instead of machine to things going wrong, and that you'll do stupid and random (but not shadowrun stupid and random) actions that require vehicles to avoid you. Which means, by the way, that you are no longer in the shadows on the road but are wearing a big "I am different" sign as far as the traffic control grid is concerned.

If you really want attention, turn off the self-reporting so the only reports are from the grid sensors and other vehicles, or have the system reporting it's on auto while you drive your own route and watch the error correction systems up to and including "pull over, let your passenger get in a 'safe' vehicle, and wait to be taken to a repair point" start engaging (and failing).

But that's my view of the shadows.

about 99% of what you described can be done with a dog brain that is not connected to the matrix, for security vehicles.

also, your SWAT team probably neither relies on a pilot program, nor leaves the driver behind (unless there's a need to have someone there to secure the vehicle in the first place, in which case you're leaving someone behind either way). most likely, the driver is a perfectly competent SWAT team member in terms of firearms skill, dodging, grenades, etc, and the high vehicle skill they have is their area of specialty. in much the same way you might have other members specialized in sniping, hacking, demolitions, infiltration, negotiation, etc. just because you're the guy who drives the vehicle, doesn't mean you aren't good with a pistol.

For security vehicles, and about 2/3. Of course, the unconnected dog brain can't know when the situation changes (moving target), and isn't getting feed of intervening traffic or other officer reactions. That last is really critical, by the way, because the danger of law enforcement is the coordinated numbers they can bring.

SWAT teams are special, but I'm not convinced a driver on the team is critical. No, I put my drivers in pursuit vehicles, and let the Roadmasters be driven by smart dogbrains. Why? Because the missions and designs are completely separate, and as an LEO department I can afford to have my SWAT and my pursuit separate but coordinated. Unlike the runners.

Again, however, that's the shape of the shadows I run. Yours may, and will, vary.

[edit to add]
Something I failed to point out: as a hacker I don't care if I hack the dog brain or hack the driver's AR, by the way. Sure, the driver can take off the AR, but for a short period of time the hacker can send false directions to the driver who then has to make a test to recognize the falsehood.

If a Target has their Systems wifi-enabled so that "The Man" (whoever that may be) can screw with him, then he deserves what he gets.

feeding the driver bad directions is better than you being able to feed it an order to ram the officer, or to ram another vehicle.

but in any event, like i said: i'm not arguing that *nothing* should be vulnerable to wireless hacks. the average consumer has no need for better security, and the convenience is nice.

the guy who professional drives a truckload of professional HTR specialists to deal with opponents that will almost always have the ability to subvert a vehicle with a vulnerability to wireless hacking, on the other hand, *does* need better security. as do the professional HTR specialists for their guns, their smartlinks, their combat 'ware, their cybereyes, and so forth.

the problem is that they don't have an option for a smartgun system that doesn't rely on wireless for basic functionality. they don't have an option for security-grade cybereyes that have the proper image enhancement software installed internally rather than in the cloud. but there should be one. there should be vehicles that are designed to be impervious to hackers. they shouldn't necessarily be common, but they should exist, because even if the average joe doesn't need or want that level of security, the primary market for certain types of vehicles (or other things) *do* need it. like the military, or HTR teams, or mercenaries, or security companies, or armoured cars, or professional couriers, and so forth.

unofficially, the market also includes go-gangers, shadowrunners, smugglers, major crime organizations, and others as well, of course.

and so, because there is a market big enough to support those kinds of products (if there weren't such a market, there'd be no such thing as security vehicles or combat 'ware at all), they should exist. they should be more expensive, they should be higher availability, and ownership may be regulated, but they should be out there.

The SWAT team would include a rigger, who stays behind anyway and is naturally suited to drive the van.

Plus you gotta figure they are not just driving up in a van like nowadays, which can range from an unarmoured van up to armoured models.

Instead they would roll up in a CityMaster or similar so the vehicle itself is a special weapon dancing to their rigger's tune.

he might stay behind, he might not. most likely, he is fully capable both inside and outside his vehicle (albeit perhaps slightly less augmented, depending on how good of a VCR the rigger has, and how much essence worth of augmentations other SWAT team members have).

but none of this presents a compelling argument for why security vehicles would not be designed to function at full capacity without wireless. certainly, i'm not suggesting they won't be wireless capable... i'm simply stating that it will be designed so that you *can* completely shut off wireless without difficulty.

or, in other words (taking it back to the original question this got started by), the citymaster will have a port to connect a datajack or VCR into with a cable. it will most likely be *capable* of being remotely rigged, controlled by the automated traffic control system, driven by the pilot program, or even remotely controlled via the matrix... but it will also be perfectly able to function with a rigger inside directly connected with a cable.

Ah. See, I thought you were holding the position that it would only run with a rigger inside directly controlling.

no. my position is that it shouldn't need wireless. i have no problem with it having the hardware to be used wirelessly also. i *do* have problems where gear made specifically for situations where wireless security *is* an issue is incapable of functioning wirelessly. that's just silly. also, canon for fifth edition. but no less silly for being canon.

Well, it wasn't intended to do that

I was merely pointing out that in Shadowrun, it makes very much sense to have a designated driver. After all, DGIF...