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Smash
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Feb 10 2015, 08:34 AM) *
THings I hated in 5th:
The dropping of the difference between impact/ballitic armor


Seriously? What possible reason makes getting rid of this bookeeping a bad thing?
Smash
QUOTE (Bogert @ Feb 10 2015, 10:37 AM) *
I have no idea what "today's aim assist" systems can do. Could you describe the kinds of systems you're talking about? Would you say they give the equivalent of +2 Limit, or +2 Dice, or what?

I suppose I could see an argument that smartgun systems in Shadowrun just aren't good enough, and never have been, if that's what you're saying?


But why does anyone need to know about this to accept a mechanic in a game? All you need to know is that it's technology designed to increase accuracy. That's it. In fact, it's probably assumed that most gamers would only have a modern pop-culture knowledge of almost all this stuff. It reminds me of going to conventions and having nerds explain their preferred style of swordsmanship, for you know, that medieval combat that they never do.

Minor point. Smartlinks were beyond ridiculous in 3rd Ed. 4th Ed bought them back to earth but for 5th Ed you can argue that the benefits aren't enough to encourage 'wireless on' mechanics. This is the actual issue I think that needs discussion. If we want wireless bonusses to work they have to be desirable and I think the d6 system can't really support bonuses of say 6 dice.

QUOTE (Bogert @ Feb 10 2015, 10:37 AM) *
I mean, if you think it made the game better as a game, that's totally fine, but I think you have to agree that it's nonsensical to argue that every change to the game mechanics has to reflect some kind of in-setting change as well.


I'd support that and it has such large precedence. Every edition of DnD has escaped this sort of scrutiny. Even 4th Ed?! Sure the mechanics get argued based on their merits but there was no grass roots movement to allow halflings to continue to wield daggers as shortswords from 3 to 3.5 (I think) based on versimilitude.............
binarywraith
You don't often get those arguments because D&D is a mechanics system, not a setting-driven system. It makes generic high fantasy. The 'because it's always been this way' arguments come out in the stuff like campaign-world specific prestige classes in Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms settings.
sk8bcn
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Feb 9 2015, 11:18 PM) *
CODE
Which was the edition shift where they changed the way Wired Reflexes worked, so that street sams no longer got to act 3-4 times before ordinary people were able to act once?

that was the third edition.
and the wired streetsam still had 3 IPs when joe normalo had only 1, its just the sequence that got changed (and it was accepted by the players because it was A) a good change) and B) not a real change at all !!)


it .did.not.change. at. all !!

with still the same Dance
Medicineman


It did change and on the specific point, Bogert is right.

It makes a hell of a difference to act 3 times before the mage than 1 before him and 2 after.

And on this point I agree with him. It's a rule mechanism effect and has nothing to do with having a better or worser technologie.

It would be like saying:
"Oh in 2072, people get harder skins because you soak more in 4th ed. [mechanism point: having a game less lethal.]"

Some stuff get changed in a edition. You cannot compare fluff depending on mechanism. Let's say you created an overpowered armor in on edition and nerf it afterwards. It's rules. Not fluff or background.

(ps: yet, so far I find to wireless bonuses totally stupid and making so sense at all)

sk8bcn
QUOTE (Bogert @ Feb 10 2015, 12:37 AM) *
I have no idea what "today's aim assist" systems can do. Could you describe the kinds of systems you're talking about? Would you say they give the equivalent of +2 Limit, or +2 Dice, or what?

I suppose I could see an argument that smartgun systems in Shadowrun just aren't good enough, and never have been, if that's what you're saying?

But, if that's not what you're saying, arguing about how much processing power they'll require in 2075, and how easy that processing power will be carry around with you, that seems like a much more uncertain proposition.


Going from being able to act 3-4 times before the opposition can respond, to only being able to act once before they respond, that's a huge nerf. Way bigger than going from dice adders to limit boosters.

I mean, if you think it made the game better as a game, that's totally fine, but I think you have to agree that it's nonsensical to argue that every change to the game mechanics has to reflect some kind of in-setting change as well.


(I'm gonna leave off the throwing knife stuff for now, I think my existing posts explain my position about as well as I can hope to. I'm sorry if I misstated your position.)



While I agree with your rule retconing argument, this is where I just disagree.

To me, every genre has codes.

If I play a star trek kind of games, I can accept non-sensical technology close to magic. It's within the genre.

In a cyberpunk game, you have to have arguments and a well-thought technology, believable. It should't be magical.

I'm sorry but at mid range, if your laser point is on your opponents chest, if you shoot, you hit, no matter what wind or whatsoever could happen. I can imagine that those factors makes a little difference, maybe, but still infinitely less than the laser sight itself.

I could buy an automatic weapon wireless that would avoid collateral damage by stopping firing between two targets in full auto.

I acn't buy an exploding bricked gun. What's that idiocy? The gun has a build in exploding charge that you can trigger by hacking or what?



The point is fairly simple: To me, in cyberpunk, you have to have a credible explanation to introduce a technology.
Sengir
QUOTE (Bogert @ Feb 9 2015, 05:06 PM) *
Is there anything wrong with handling things this way?

Yes: "These benefits only apply when the itemís wireless mode is on" (p. 421).

No wireless (and thus exposure to Neo tricks), no bonus. That's the entire point of this idea, and the reason why it can't be fixed.


@Medicineman:
QUOTE
If an Item that moves with the Speed of a throwing Knife gets a Bonus and an Item that moves at the Speed of Light

OK, let me get this straight: You believe that that laser sight gets a bonus because the photons it emits report back in-flight telemetry like the throwing knives do?
nezumi
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Feb 10 2015, 05:05 AM) *
And on this point I agree with him. It's a rule mechanism effect and has nothing to do with having a better or worser technologie.


I agree; this one is strictly mechanics. Bear in mind, even the rules say multiple actions are 'happening simultaneously'. It's pretty clear the mechanics are just there so we have a way to resolve them. Wired reflexes are considered to work exactly the same between 2nd and 3rd, and that particular change is only one of how we tell the story.

However, there are pieces of ware and setting that changed substantially. In SR1, you couldn't astrally move through living materials, so buildings would be covered in ivy as a form of protection. That went away (with I think SR2, but I could be misremembering). That's a *huge* setting difference. The tactical computer changed hugely between SR2 and SR3. All of its functionality shifted. Those are definite setting changes (I don't remember how people dealt with the plant thing--I was too new to the game back then. The Tactical Computer fortunately was a pretty minor piece of ware, so it generally got forgotten about. But people still complain about losing things like Turn to Goo.)
sk8bcn
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 10 2015, 02:02 PM) *
However, there are pieces of ware and setting that changed substantially. In SR1, you couldn't astrally move through living materials, so buildings would be covered in ivy as a form of protection. That went away (with I think SR2, but I could be misremembering). That's a *huge* setting difference.


What??? really???

I still say to my mage that they can't pass through living things.

Did they remove the part? Or did they explicitely tells otherwise?

And why removing that by the way?

(ok that has nothing to do with the subject, I admit)
Draco18s
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 10 2015, 08:02 AM) *
Yes: "These benefits only apply when the itemís wireless mode is on" (p. 421).

No wireless (and thus exposure to Neo tricks), no bonus. That's the entire point of this idea, and the reason why it can't be fixed.


To be fair, the guy who wrote the bonuses thought that the item only needed to be connected to your PAN (i.e. your comlink, even if it wasn't broadcasting to the cloud) which starts making a whole lot more sense.
Tycho
So things I don't like about SR5:

General:
There is no Concept or Design Philossophy in the Rules, several things were changed regardless of the consequences or implications. I have the feeling nobody "did the math", things were just changed for the sake of it.
Also the Core Rules don't explain the Setting for new beginners, several times prior knowledge of the Shadowrun Setting and History is required.

There is still (1.5years after release) no Setting book for SR5, literally the most importent part of a functioning System is missing. We have the Crunch in the Core Rules, but Fluff of the Setting of the game is missing. Something like the Seattle Sourcebook or Runner's haven is just missing. Consider being a new player, you have no books or knowledge of Shadowrun other than SR5 Print Products. There is no way you can run a SR5 campaign with the available informations. You pretty much have to know Shadowrun allready to play SR5.

Worst Chargen Ever: Prio with "Fake-Karma" is a minmaxers wet dream. Also having 2 different Resources both named Karma (the FakeKarma for Chargen has double the buying power for qualities, can be used to buy Powerpoints for cheap. So it is no Karma) is stupid as hell. How can you write "Qualities cost 2x the Karma cost in Karma" in you book and not realise, maybe there are some things you neet to change. Karmagen should be the one and only option, otherwise you get a Karma difference of 500Karma and more in starting Characters.

Matrix Rules are not thought thru at all: Everytime you try to answer a more complex Matrix Question you end up without any information about the topic. You can say what you will about SR4 Matrix Rules (there definitly weren't perfect), but at least they worked.

Mega Inflation: Prizes ar up by a factor of 5. Why for Gods Sake? Now we have the problem that you could retire in your permanent High Lifestyle or but some fancy deck... great. Also everything Mage related is more or less on the old SR4 prize level, because Mages clearly needed the boost.

Stupid Wifi-Bonus: There are only better solutions to keep PCs online...

SINs:The Rules were Shitty in SR4 and needed improvement. The SIN System still does not work, if you try to bring logic to the table. Just accepting that it works and ignoring the whole matter works.

Surveillance: was bad in SR4, Copy&Paste Job, including Errors from the First Printing of the SR4 Core Rules (not SR4A). These are Areas were improvement would have made sense and were needed. But they were mostly left untouched.

GM Advice: is a setback to the 80ies, I think we are past the "punish you Players for misbehaiving etc." Also stupig Run Rewards Calculation "Let's kill some Devil Rats on the way home, we get 10% more $ this way..."

Proofreading it a joke: you are selling books at a premium prize range and there is no professionel (aka paid) proofreading...

CGL seem to live in a world where North America is surrounded by Oceans, which extend to the "End of the World": Everything is totally America fokussed, like the Life Path Generation for example, there in no regard for other settings in Europe or Asia.

and that is just off the top of my head...
Medicineman
QUOTE
It makes a hell of a difference to act 3 times before the mage than 1 before him and 2 after.


and next IP once more .
so its still acting 3 Times before the next Action of Joe normalo. Its just the Sequence thats got changed
(instead of S/S/S/Joe/S/S/S/Joe/S/S/S
its been S/Joe /S/S/S/Joe/S/S/S/Joe/S/S .... thats what I menat with
QUOTE
it .did.not.change. at. all !!
wink.gif )
and since its not only been slightly better for Joe Normalo NPC but also for any non-combatitive Player Char its been well received (at least from the Players I've known and talked to, even some Streetsam players were OK with that new sequence )
but I think this is a subject for a whole different discussion .

QUOTE
OK, let me get this straight: You believe that that laser sight gets a bonus because the photons it emits report back in-flight telemetry like the throwing knives do?

No ,
I believe that the Laser Pointer gets a Bonus because CGL wants it that way
(and since it makes no sense to me, and the Throwing Dirk Bonus makes no sense to me either....wink.gif )

As I wrote before:
You have to draw a Line with WiFi Bonuses , and this line is either BEFORE the Throwing Dirk or AFTER the Laserpointer
and If You draw the Line AFTER the laser pointer you also have to accept a Bonus to each item inbetween
(its like presuming every car gets a windshieldwiper (= every Item in SR5 gets a WiFi Bonus),so a SMART
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rggV7dDmbt0/UgFk..._56366eb5d1.jpg
gets a wiper and a big Cadillac Limousine gets a Wiper too.That also means that every other car is also supposed to have a wiper too !

I'm NOT trying to make up any ingame Reason (since CGL's WiFi Bonuses don't either) I'm simply regarding this Issue from a Metagaming Point of View and following the Rules as they're already written down.
just to make it clear : I've drawn the line before the Throwing Dirk ! wink.gif

QUOTE
No wireless (and thus exposure to Neo tricks), no bonus. That's the entire point of this idea, and the reason why it can't be fixed.

smile.gif there is quite an easy fix, give the Bonus no matter if its wired or not,or give no Bonus at all
a Laserpointer helps aiming , so the User gets +1 to hit and +1 Limit.
A Smartlink helps aiming even better , +2 to hit, +2 Limit .
A throwing Knife is just a peace of Metal so no Bonus at all,
Diving Gears WiFi Bonus make no sense and WiFi doesn't work underwater so no Bonus at all, etc.



@Nezumi

QUOTE
However, there are pieces of ware and setting that changed substantially. In SR1, you couldn't astrally move through living materials, so buildings would be covered in ivy as a form of protection. That went away (with I think SR2, but I could be misremembering). That's a *huge* setting difference.

the big Astral Change was from Ed 2 -->3
(IIRC you could attack Spells like living beeings in the Astral Space in SR2 that changed too in SR3)
and I too consider this a Main event change !
But I was a Young then and I didn't mind so much

with a dance at the Line in the Sand
Medicneman
Bogert
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Feb 10 2015, 04:17 AM) *
I acn't buy an exploding bricked gun. What's that idiocy? The gun has a build in exploding charge that you can trigger by hacking or what?

Exploding? The way I read that passage (in the Matrix chapter), I think they're just saying that you can't brick things silently. You'll always get some kind of manifestation in the real world that something's wrong, be that visual, auditory, olfactory, whatever.

QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 10 2015, 07:02 AM) *
Yes: "These benefits only apply when the itemís wireless mode is on" (p. 421).

Well, in the section immediately following that statement, they give the reasons for this. And the reasons given seem to be purely related to Matrix connectively. So, personally, it doesn't seem strange at all to me to say, "Yes, if you connect your gun to the Matrix by plugging it into your Wireless enabled commlink, you can get your Wireless bonuses."

Of course, I would also say that that opens your gun up to hacking.
Medicineman
QUOTE
To be fair, the guy who wrote the bonuses thought that the item only needed to be connected to your PAN (i.e. your comlink, even if it wasn't broadcasting to the cloud) which starts making a whole lot more sense.

this might have been an Idea to ....ponder and might've worked aout....
but (Alas you say, don't you) its not that way

With a Dance that might 've been a good one
Medicineman
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Smash @ Feb 9 2015, 08:52 PM) *
Seriously? What possible reason makes getting rid of this bookeeping a bad thing?



It was one of those things that added a bit more variety/flavor in the game, and some interesting choices. Some rounds are designed for maximum damage (like frangible rounds) but pretty much splat against any stiff armors (which is what impact is), whereas ballistic represents soft armor like kevlar that has different properties.

In the end it was just one extra number and the weapon/ammo type determined if it went off ballistic or impact. Yes, it was a minor book keeping issue. But to me the additional variety to weapons selection was well worth it.
Sengir
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Feb 10 2015, 04:44 PM) *
As I wrote before:
You have to draw a Line with WiFi Bonuses , and this line is either BEFORE the Throwing Dirk or AFTER the Laserpointer

And for that statement to even begin making any sense, the mechanisms of throwing knives and laser sights would have to be comparable. Throwing knives report back telemetry in flight, but what makes you think laser sights use the same mechanism?

@Bogert
QUOTE (Bogert @ Feb 10 2015, 04:44 PM) *
Well, in the section immediately following that statement, they give the reasons for this. And the reasons given seem to be purely related to Matrix connectively.

No surprise, given that the writers themselves were unsure what the criteria were.

But the final rules are clear, enabled Wifi is a necessary condition to get the bonus ("These benefits only apply when..."). And since this effect fits squarely into the meta reason for these bonuses, I don't think this is unintentional.


QUOTE
Of course, I would also say that that opens your gun up to hacking.

Not directly, since an attacker can could only see the commlink. He'd first need to hack the link, then disable the gun.
Medicineman
QUOTE
Throwing knives report back telemetry in flight, but what makes you think laser sights use the same mechanism?


??
I don't !

QUOTE
I'm NOT trying to make up any ingame Reason (since CGL's WiFi Bonuses don't either) I'm simply regarding this Issue from a Metagaming Point of View and following the Rules as they're already written down.


my Argument is purely out of game, there is no Ingame Reason. And I can't give an explanation to a "fact" that makes no sense to me
(just like the WiFi Bonus itself)

Hough!
Medicineman
Sengir
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Feb 10 2015, 07:59 PM) *
my Argument is purely out of game, there is no Ingame Reason.

And for your comparison to make any sense, the two items need to be comparable
Medicineman
You're right, but thats not the Point smile.gif
I'm not aiming for a comparision !
I'm just following a chain of thought (an out-of-Game chain of thought)
and even though it makes no sense ingame it is a valid chain of thought out-of-Game
(that's why I drew the "line" BEFORE the throwing Knife's Bonus)

but I think we're running round in circles smile.gif

With a Dance in a circle
Medicineman

Sengir
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Feb 10 2015, 08:16 PM) *
and even though it makes no sense ingame it is a valid chain of thought out-of-Game

Not even close to it, because flying knives have nothing to do with flying photons. You could compare the smartgun bonus to the laser sight, but I guess that would be too logical...
Bogert
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 10 2015, 12:54 PM) *
No surprise, given that the writers themselves were unsure what the criteria were.

But the final rules are clear, enabled Wifi is a necessary condition to get the bonus ("These benefits only apply when..."). And since this effect fits squarely into the meta reason for these bonuses, I don't think this is unintentional.

I agree with the first part, but that leads me to disagree with your assertion in the second. Given what we know about the process, I don't think we can usefully refer to designer intent on this stuff.

We have to stick with what's in the book and what makes sense to us. My read on that section you quoted from is as follows:
1. You only get Wireless bonuses if Wireless is turned on
2. Because, the added functionality modeled by Wireless bonuses relies on Matrix connectivity

Given that, it's not a leap for me to say that something connected to the Matrix, however it gets connected, should get its Wireless bonus.

Suppose I'm in range of a powerful jammer, and as a result, the Wireless antenna on my microtransceiver won't work. Now, I plug my microtransceiver into a terminal to connect it to the Matrix. Can I use my microtransceiver to communicate with people worldwide?

I would say so, even though this is listed as a "Wireless" bonus in the Gear entry for microtransceivers.

QUOTE
Not directly, since an attacker can could only see the commlink. He'd first need to hack the link, then disable the gun.

I'm not sure. The book doesn't really spend a lot of time explaining how devices work when they're connected to the Matrix, but not using their own wireless connection.

But, I think, if a device is connected to the Matrix, it should have an icon in the Matrix, right?
Medicineman
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 10 2015, 02:41 PM) *
Not even close to it, because flying knives have nothing to do with flying photons. You could compare the smartgun bonus to the laser sight, but I guess that would be too logical...


You are totally right smile.gif
Flying knives really have nothing to do with flying photons.
I completely agree with You .
But your argument is an INGAME Argument

QUOTE
my Argument is purely out of game, there is no Ingame Reason.


QUOTE
You could compare the smartgun bonus to the laser sight, but I guess that would be too logical

THIS is a complete different Can of Worms
Namely :
Why is the Smart Dice bonus (if used with Glasses or conrtact Lenses) the same as a Laserpointer Dice Bonus ?
Why is the Dicebonus +2 if you connet smart with your Cybereyes but only +1 if You use the same Smart with Contactlenses.

with a Dance on the top of the Can of Worms
Medicineman
Glyph
QUOTE (Bogert @ Feb 10 2015, 11:48 AM) *
But, I think, if a device is connected to the Matrix, it should have an icon in the Matrix, right?

Slaving devices to your commlink is different in SR5 than it was in SR4. In SR4, your commlink could act as a kind of choke point - you had to access the commlink to access the slaved devices. In SR5, slaved devices can be directly attacked, although they can still use the (usually beefier) stats of the commlink to defend themselves. So that is where the other poster was getting "He'd first need to hack the link, then disable the gun" from. I do that, too - SR5 resembles SR4 so much, sometimes, that you can find yourself assuming the SR4 rules and missing the changes.
Bertramn
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Feb 10 2015, 02:18 PM) *
What??? really???

I still say to my mage that they can't pass through living things.

Did they remove the part? Or did they explicitely tells otherwise?

And why removing that by the way?

(ok that has nothing to do with the subject, I admit)


I seem to remember something in the Magic Supplement in SR4...

It mentioned some kind of awakened shrubbery that could be put on walls for security.
Also, there were rules for how fast you could go through solid ground, since you were entering the astral form of Gaya.

On the Wireless Thing, I have some possible fixes.
Make it involve less bookkeeping!
Make it easier!

1. Everything is online all the time. -> less bookkeeping
2. Wireless hacking (as well as AR-Hacking) is extremely difficult, because of technical restrictions, and thus less effective.
(A deck and a direct link is required to fully translate the raw computing powere required for modern decking,
doing it wireless severely hampers your abilities. With this blanket treatment, Noise can be done away with -> less bookkeeping, more Cyberspace)
3. (Re-)Introduce TacNets (-> an alternative role for Deckers, as opposed to Tech-Wizards)

This does away with some logical inconsistencies by just giving it a blanket treatment, and letting it be taken care of by suspension of disbelief.

On that note, wasn't there some kind of TacNet in 3rd Edition?
Blade
I don't think my main problem with SR5 is that it has big rules problems. SR4 has some as well, not necessarily the same but probably as many.
My main problem is that it doesn't solve many of the problem I had with SR4, and when it tries to do, it doesn't do it the way I'd have wanted or done.

So to me, it's just easier and better to skip it and just focus on making my own ruleset (which I'm currently doing, and it's fantastic wink.gif )
Sendaz
QUOTE (Bertramn @ Feb 11 2015, 05:36 AM) *
2. Wireless hacking (as well as AR-Hacking) is extremely difficult, because of technical restrictions, and thus less effective.
(A deck and a direct link is required to fully translate the raw computing powere required for modern decking,
doing it wireless severely hampers your abilities. With this blanket treatment, Noise can be done away with -> less bookkeeping, more Cyberspace)

This is ... interesting.

But doesn't the dice penalties for operating across assorted grids already do some of this?

Or are you looking to add some sort of more restrictive limit placed on their dice while going across the wireless grids?

So going in via the public grid is -2 dice and applying a penalty to the dice limit as well?

just trying to see how this could be worked.

Bertramn
The dice penalties are extreme book-keeping though.
It takes a while to calculate stuff like that, stuff like Noise and such, which is why I am of the opinion that dropping that stuff would be wise.
The Matrix should not be too simulationist.
It was a good thing that ECM and ECCM got dropped for the most part in 4th Edition, for example.

How about we say that all matrix attribtues of your cyber-deck are halved if you hack via Wireless?
That keeps it nice and easy, while using the Limit Mechanic.
Hacking all the stuff is still possible, but a lot more difficult.
Sengir
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Feb 10 2015, 09:23 PM) *
But your argument is an INGAME Argument


And this isn't?

QUOTE (Medicineman @ Feb 6 2015, 09:35 PM) *
No, not at all, because it does not make any sense at all !
The WiFi makes the Laser more effective (adds a +1 Bonus ) so it makes somthing that works at the Speed of Light better
Sengir
QUOTE (Bogert @ Feb 10 2015, 08:48 PM) *
But, I think, if a device is connected to the Matrix, it should have an icon in the Matrix, right?

The way I read the section on matrix perception, you only listen for wireless traffic from devices around you. So the commlink shows up, stuff that is wired to it does not.

The rules are a bit unclear though, for example we have this on page 234: "A device in the Matrix is any wireless device"
Draco18s
QUOTE (Blade @ Feb 11 2015, 05:49 AM) *
I don't think my main problem with SR5 is that it has big rules problems. SR4 has some as well, not necessarily the same but probably as many.
My main problem is that it doesn't solve many of the problem I had with SR4, and when it tries to do, it doesn't do it the way I'd have wanted or done.


Quite. Reminds me of how I felt about D&D 4E: all this hype about how things that sounded really good ("you can crit zombies and other undead now" "zombie dogs that latch onto you and debuff you, even after they're dead" "no more 'save or die' effects: you'll get multiple saves and failing causing incremental status effects") but which ultimately was a rotting pile of garbage (there was a rogue power that was better if it missed: guaranteed 1 round of combat advantage, because it wore off at the end of the rogue's next turn. If it hit, it was "save to end" which meant it could go away at the beginning of the creature's turn 55% of the time!).

SR5 does a lot of the same stuff. "Hackers now have to be frontline" (unless they connect to the host from China, and now have a noise penalty of 0 due to "same host" rules: switching hosts is an action that requires no marks). Gear encourages you to enable the wireless, making you vulnerable to hackers (bullshit bonuses that few people would bother with). Limits that cap how well you can perform (never makes a difference, except when it does, at which point its a devastating limitation*).

*I was under the impression that gear would have lower limits than natural ability. Sure, you've got all of the muscle control in the world and can pinpoint snipe a fly at 100 yards from the hip. You still using a Saturday night special. But no, even the shittiest accuracy guns have limits that are higher than most runners' natural, and the things that didn't need limits to hamper ability (because generally they were generally hard to "do well at", cough charisma cough, unless you hyperspecialized anyway) have the harshest ones.
Bogert
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 11 2015, 08:12 AM) *
The way I read the section on matrix perception, you only listen for wireless traffic from devices around you. So the commlink shows up, stuff that is wired to it does not.

I don't think so. Looking at "Virtual Visions" on 217, we've got stuff like:

"This virtual plain is lit with the glow of the icon of your commlink (or deck) and other icons around you, one for each device and persona connected to the Matrix." and later, "Additionally, the farther away devices are from you in the real world, the dimmer their icons are in the Matrix; this is partly because your commlink figures the farther ones arenít as interesting to you, but mostly because the connection is a bit slower due to the distance."

My read on this is that you're not just monitoring local wireless traffic.

Then, in "Matrix Perception" on 235, they say:

"The Matrix has a lot of stuff in it. Cars, blenders, light switches, advertising RFIDs, hosts, and everything wireless and/or electronic."

That "and/or" there, to me that suggests that electronic stuff that isn't wireless can be on the Matrix, and have an icon.

QUOTE
The rules are a bit unclear though, for example we have this on page 234: "A device in the Matrix is any wireless device"

Yep, it's definitely ambiguous. But, from what we have seen, I'm comfortable that my interpretation is reasonably well supported by the text.

So, to get back to the initial point of disagreement, I'm personally happy saying that "Wireless" bonuses are really Matrix connection bonuses.

Well, except for the ones that are basically just restatements of the benefits of having a DNI. (Extendable baton, forearm snap blades, eject clip, etc.) Huh, actually, the air tank makes sense under this latter framework, the stuff described under "Wireless" is perfectly reasonable as just a DNI benefit.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bogert @ Feb 11 2015, 11:53 AM) *
Well, except for the ones that are basically just restatements of the benefits of having a DNI. (Extendable baton, forearm snap blades, eject clip, etc.) Huh, actually, the air tank makes sense under this latter framework, the stuff described under "Wireless" is perfectly reasonable as just a DNI benefit.


I would really like an explanation on how an Air Tank used for Diving is going to be accessing the Matrix... Like at all? And why do you need it on the Matrix to tell you what levels the tank capacity is currently at. What ever happened to the attached dial that shows such information? It goes back to the Bonuses being crap. *shrug*

The problem is that it is NOT a DNI bonus but a Matrix Access Penalty, meant to somehow induce you to put your stuff at risk for absolutely no reason whatsoever. This is the crux of the issues that most have with them.
Bogert
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 11 2015, 02:28 PM) *
I would really like an explanation on how an Air Tank used for Diving is going to be accessing the Matrix... Like at all?

Ah, sorry about the confusion. What I was trying to say is that the Internal Air Tank wireless bonus makes sense as a DNI bonus.

See, I think Neurosis got confused partway through writing the Wireless bonuses. So, while most of them are Matrix connectivity bonuses (as they are described in other parts of the book), a few of them are really just describing the benefits of connecting to the device using a DNI (by whatever means).

I think the Internal Air Tank is best understood using the latter framework. It shouldn't require any kind of Matrix connection at all, but if you connect to it using a DNI of any kind, you should get the listed benefit.

QUOTE
And why do you need it on the Matrix to tell you what levels the tank capacity is currently at. What ever happened to the attached dial that shows such information?

Well, if you read the description, here's what it says:
"Wireless: Activating or de-activating the tank is a Free Action. You’re always aware of the tank’s exact air level and purity."

That doesn't suggest to me you need to have the bonus in order to check the contents of the tank. It seems pretty clear that they're just describing a DNI benefit, that's what that 'always aware' is about.

(Also, side point, since this is an Internal Air Tank, I'm not sure how an "attached dial" would be visible.)

QUOTE
It goes back to the Bonuses being crap. *shrug*

Yeah, Neurosis really fucked up on the whole Wireless vs. DNI thing, very disappointing.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bogert @ Feb 11 2015, 01:51 PM) *
(Also, side point, since this is an Internal Air Tank, I'm not sure how an "attached dial" would be visible.)


Good Point... They have always been accessible via DNI... smile.gif
I was obviously thinking Scuba Diving Tank. cyber.gif cyber.gif
carmachu
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 10 2015, 08:02 AM) *
Yes: "These benefits only apply when the itemís wireless mode is on" (p. 421).

No wireless (and thus exposure to Neo tricks), no bonus. That's the entire point of this idea, and the reason why it can't be fixed.


And thats generally the problem people have after serveral editions of bonues without wireless. And its one of the reasons more then a few people hate it.
Glyph
QUOTE (Bogert @ Feb 11 2015, 10:53 AM) *
Well, except for the ones that are basically just restatements of the benefits of having a DNI. (Extendable baton, forearm snap blades, eject clip, etc.) Huh, actually, the air tank makes sense under this latter framework, the stuff described under "Wireless" is perfectly reasonable as just a DNI benefit.

Those are pretty much the ones that people have the problems with. Wireless bonuses would be fine if they were limited to communications and things that would logically benefit from being connected to the database of the Matrix (such as the autopicker being able to access lock blueprints). Although for the smartlink, I would prefer for users to be able to get the full base functionality (a bonus to hit and to your gun's accuracy), and have the wired bonuses be things like lower penalties for medium or higher range, or the ability to use indirect fire or trigger a gun remotely.


The dual trouble with bricking is that it is actually pretty difficult to do, but the consequences can be crippling and devastating to street samurai. That is a lot of potential resentment on both sides. The decker feels that his job has been made tougher (overwatch score, etc.) and not really ameliorated by a barely-effective "attack", while he is now stuck babysitting the other characters against Matrix attacks. The street samurai, on the other hand, feels like he is stuck between gimped gear and leaving himself open to potential attacks that could cripple his 'ware - it is like he has to carry the idiot ball, or be penalized. The adept, meanwhile, is laughing - until he runs into background count, and suddenly goes from superhuman, to powerless.

That is the most frustrating thing about SR5. They gave a lot of things an overall power boost, but then nerfed things in unfun and tedious ways. And these tend to be flat penalties, so they only encourage powergaming. If you are going to have 3 less dice most of the time, you will feel it a lot more if your starting dice pool is 10 instead of 17.
nezumi
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Feb 10 2015, 08:18 AM) *
What??? really???

I still say to my mage that they can't pass through living things.

Did they remove the part? Or did they explicitely tells otherwise?

And why removing that by the way?

(ok that has nothing to do with the subject, I admit)


I don't think it was explicit, except that in SR1, it explicitly says you can't move through living things, and in SR3 it doesn't say anything about that at all. That's also why they introduced the new dual-natured ivy in one of the books (can't remember which) that would block astral critters, or the other ones that would scream when something passed through them.

They probably changed it because of the sheer amoutn of life that normally floats around just in the air. All of a sudden a cloud of thrips is an impenetrable barrier, not to mention that bacteria and such are literally everywhere, alive, and would freeze you permanently in place.
Draco18s
Personally I think the stuff like the awakened algae that glows when an astral form passes through it is brilliant. I don't know if that's canon or something my GM made up, but it is really flavorful and makes a neat kind of security. Sure: they can't stop someone from astrally projecting through the wall, but they'll know about it.
Cochise
QUOTE (nezumi)
I don't think it was explicit, except that in SR1, it explicitly says you can't move through living things, and in SR3 it doesn't say anything about that at all.


The core rules of SR3 certainly had something to say on that. There are explicit rules how an astrally inactive being is able to notice that the astral body of a projecting magician just passed through the former. Not much denying there that living matter is being passed through. By implication the previous restrictions of SR1 and SR2 where astral bodies were not able to pass through living matter like wood was removed with the exception of Earth itself ... which had different but explicit rules as well.

sk8bcn
QUOTE (Cochise @ Feb 12 2015, 04:46 PM) *
The core rules of SR3 certainly had something to say on that. There are explicit rules how an astrally inactive being is able to notice that the astral body of a projecting magician just passed through the former. Not much denying there that living matter is being passed through. By implication the previous restrictions of SR1 and SR2 where astral bodies were not able to pass through living matter like wood was removed with the exception of Earth itself ... which had different but explicit rules as well.


So Earth is actually astrally active and that makes them impossible to pass through. Ok. Nezumi's point is crystal clear like yours.
Medicineman
QUOTE
So Earth is actually astrally active and that makes them impossible to pass through. Ok. Nezumi's point is crystal clear like yours.

that was explicitely in SR2
the Change came in SR3 when mages could astarally go into the Earth (albeit very slowly and there was a big chance of loosing Orientation)
Since SR3 people could notice Astral beeings passing through them ( well, If I were an astral mage I wouldn't be so stupid though because if I would spy on people astrally I wouldn't want them to notice me ! )

with an unnoticed astral Dance
Medicineman
Shev
QUOTE (Bogert @ Feb 6 2015, 03:06 PM) *
Hm? What are you saying exactly?


I'm saying that if I'm comparing the numbers 1, 6, and 30, it is incorrect to say that 6 is closer to 30 than to 1, even though 1 to 6 is a sixfold increase and 6 to 30 is "only" a fivefold increase.


The difference between the arrow and knife is 75 m/s. The difference between the arrow and the bullet is a whopping 250m/s. The speeds of the arrow and the knife are much closer to each other than the arrow and the bullet.
Bogert
QUOTE (Shev @ Feb 12 2015, 02:04 PM) *
I'm saying that if I'm comparing the numbers 1, 6, and 30, it is incorrect to say that 6 is closer to 30 than to 1, even though 1 to 6 is a sixfold increase and 6 to 30 is "only" a fivefold increase.


The difference between the arrow and knife is 75 m/s. The difference between the arrow and the bullet is a whopping 250m/s. The speeds of the arrow and the knife are much closer to each other than the arrow and the bullet.

When reasoning by analogy, you tend to use multiples, not arithmetic differences.

Here's the kind of statement that makes sense under your proposed framework:
"NASCAR is for chumps. Comparing Formula 1 to stock car racing is like comparing the Kentucky Derby to a Sunday stroll."

See, Formula 1 cars top out at about 240 mph, while stock cars top out at 200 mph. A 40 mph arithmetic difference is about the same as the arithmetic difference between a thoroughbred's racing speed (~45 mph) and a walk (3-4 mph). So, that comparison is kosher, right?
Sendaz
Horse is not Kosher.

Tasty, but not Kosher.

Sorry couldn't resist. biggrin.gif
Shev
QUOTE (Bogert @ Feb 12 2015, 04:23 PM) *
When reasoning by analogy, you tend to use multiples, not arithmetic differences.

Here's the kind of statement that makes sense under your proposed framework:
"NASCAR is for chumps. Comparing Formula 1 to stock car racing is like comparing horse races to a Sunday stroll."

See, Formula 1 cars top out at about 240 mph, while stock cars top out at 200 mph. A 40 mph arithmetic difference is about the same as the arithmetic difference between a thoroughbred's top speed and a walk. So, that comparison is kosher, right?



No, because now you're comparing 4 things split into 2 groups of 2.

Basically, you said that a horse race is comparable to Formula 1 racing because a sunday stroll at 4 mph is 10 times slower than a horse race, while the horse race is "only" 6 times slower than Forumula 1. Obviously this is wrong: horses at any speed are much closer to each other than to race cars. The horse at full gallop and at sunday stroll have more in common than the horse at full gallop and a racecar.
Bogert
QUOTE (Shev @ Feb 12 2015, 02:32 PM) *
Obviously this is wrong...

Obviously? We're arguing about whether arithmetic differences or multiples are more common when reasoning by analogy, I don't think there's anything obvious about it.

But, as a practical matter, I think people don't tend to use analogies the way you think they do. They generally act as ratios.

A is to B as B is to C.

That suggests that A, B, and C form a geometric sequence, not an arithmetic one. So, 1, 3, 9; not 1, 3, 5.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bogert @ Feb 12 2015, 01:47 PM) *
Obviously? We're arguing about whether arithmetic differences or multiples are more common when reasoning by analogy, I don't think there's anything obvious about it.

But, as a practical matter, I think people don't tend to use analogies the way you think they do. They generally act as ratios.

A is to B as B is to C.

That suggests that A, B, and C form a geometric sequence, not an arithmetic one. So, 1, 3, 9; not 1, 3, 5.


Who is "People?"
Bogert
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 12 2015, 03:47 PM) *
Who is "People?"

I guess, English speakers that have written analogies that I've read? I mean, I could be wrong on this, but analogizing by multiples does look like the more common version. Even the nomenclature looks like ratios.

A:B -> Can be read as the ratio of A to B, or it can be read as "A is to B"

Like, people say that 4k is to HD as HD was to standard definition. They don't mean that the arithmetic difference is the same, they mean that in each case you've got essentially a doubling of the vertical and horizontal resolution.
Cochise
QUOTE (sk8bcn)
So Earth is actually astrally active and that makes them impossible to pass through.


As usual it's a matter of detail. Earth in SR3 is a special form of dual natured entity. Unlike other astrally active entities it can be passed through

QUOTE (sk8bcn)
Ok. Nezumi's point is crystal clear like yours.


Nezumi's assessment as far as the "why" behind the change for SR3 is concerned certainly isn't totally incorrect but he was incorrect about SR3 not stating anything on the matter.

There's even more to it than what he explained: SR3 also tried to solidify the separated planes concept. The SR1 and SR2 rules on "living matter" not being passable for pure astral entities didn't mesh to well with that idea because the living matter wasn't required to actually be astrally active to cause it stopping effect. Baseline was that Earth itself, its natural surface structures and any form of organic matter that wasn't heavily processed created that effect. That even lead to discussions whether or not it was possible to trap a projecting mage in a natural stone cave by closing a handcrafted, wooden door attached to the cave's entrance.

SR3 did away with that ...
Link
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 12 2015, 09:47 PM) *
Who is "People?"

Soylent Green of course.
Link
QUOTE (Bertramn @ Feb 11 2015, 10:36 AM) *
On that note, wasn't there some kind of TacNet in 3rd Edition?

Fields of Fire in second ed introduced Battle-Tac and Small unit tactics skill which was revised in Cannon Companion with additional material in Matrix.
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