And what part of "cloud computing" is required to make a baton get bigger?

The extremely responsive DNI part, which might be expensive in terms of processing power.

Assumptions 1 and 2: In reality, you can do both at once. SR5 can allow it, if you allow quick drawing to be done with weapons other than pistols.

Assumption 2.2: Batons don't actually get tangled on anything. You need protrusions for that, and a baton is a smooth tube. Anyone can draw and snap a baton with zero training, it's easier than drawing a pistol. And in any event, a DNI won't help you draw a baton, only open it-- if you fumble and drop the baton, DNI won't save you. Really, batons snap open very easily. Something like that might help them retract, they're a pain to re-holster, but it wouldn't snap it open.

Corollary: Right now, batons snap open without any powered assistance. If you want them to snap open via DNI, you need to add some sort of solid state mechanical device, like a solenoid. (Three, actually: most batons have three sections, and ideally you'd need one for each.) Even allowing for 2070 technology, it'd just add weight. On top of that, solenoids require power, so you'd have to include a battery pack of some sort. It can be small, but it'd also add more weight and be more cumbersome. So, even if the wifi and computer controls have negligible weight, the system itself will be much heavier than one without.

It's a lot like saying a sword can be aided by adding wifi. It doesn't make sense, it doesn't add any real benefit to the game, it just forces a poorly done vulnerability onto the game.


I'm not against deckers having more to do in the world. I'm more against trying to poorly and artificially force equality in combat for deckers. Even D&D 4e didn't go this far-- while they emphasized everyone having something to do in a fight, they didn't try and make everyone do everything equally. Deckers are support characters in a fight, but these silly rules are trying to make them just as dangerous as front line combatants.

What part of "send my brainwave data to the cloud" is more "responsive" than "using my nervous system to move my thumb a quarter of an inch"?

Also, this is totally rehash at this point.

I'm not saying the conventional method isn't fast, just that it requires a certain amount of effort/focus, enough to make the difference between a Free action and a Simple action. (In other words, enough of a difference that the DNI augmented user has time/mental space to take an Observe In Detail action or similar.)

And while I've never tried to whip out anything that was growing while I was drawing it, I imagine that if I did, 'tangling' might be a concern. (Sorry if this was unclear, in my example I was imagining the DNI baton extending even as it's being drawn.)

With regards to the additional weight, is that a big concern with something that you're going to be clubbing someone with? Even if it is, people in setting might consider it worth it, especially when you consider additional possible features of the electronic version, like quick/easy retraction and being able to guarantee that it won't be taken from you and used against you.


Travel time for a nerve impulse to propagate from your brain to your hand is on the order of 20 milliseconds I think.

Assuming you're generally using computational resources within about 1 mile or so, lightspeed lag to your computational resources will be measured in microseconds.

It's easy for me to imagine that a super-responsive DNI that uses Cloud resources could be faster than actually having a finger push a button. Also, you could get much better control.

Video example for Readying an extendable Baton.

Wireless could have been implemented in an interesting way. I would have liked to see tacnets, sensors, and drone warfare expanded more. But the wireless bonuses don't make any sense. Sure, you can come up with some technobabble and handwaving to try to justify it, and say your extendable baton extends faster because the wireless emits the photons through the main deflector array, but why bother shining up a turd?

But can you imagine a situation where pushing a button is more complex than dropping prone, kneeling, or making one of a multitude of different communicative gestures (silence, stop, go that way, flip an enemy the bird)?

If anything, I think using a smart link to extend a baton is far more dangerous and impractical than a push button. A person could easily train muscle memory to draw the baton into "loaded position" as shown in the video and then push the button. It would be far trickier to control your thoughts so you don't think "extend" as you reach for the baton, causing it to extend prematurely and creating a danger to yourself.

I think the same !!
It would've been great if using the Matrix WiFi would give You some Bonuses (like in Tac Net, Additional Infos ,etc) this would've been a "True Carrot" but what we've got now is a "Disguised Stick" which often doesn't make much sense at all
(Laserpointer, Throwing Knives, Silencer (!) and many more) all this just for the Sake of " so that a Decker is usefull in Combat" (Which he was in SR4A already, the Player just had to be a little imaginative. a remote controlled Car or Motorcycle is deadly in 4A ( Search for the Headless Murdercycle), remote closed or opened Doors can help or hinder tremendously in a Fight.
and (by the way) I'm playing SR5 now for a Year in one Homeround and on different Cons in Germany.
I've never (not even once) had a scene where a Decker tries to Brick something (I asked a player once why he didn't . he said he doesn't like it and it takes too long).
So for me it looks like CGL invented stupid Rules which everybody (or at least the mayority) hates and which no one uses ingame
(and I wonder if they could be named Moot rules is this the right expression ? )

He who would rather dance with a Carrot than with a Stick
Medicineman

Given that computer games that're designed to "not work quite right" if not always online are generally hacked to be fully functional offline within a week of release, I feel it's pretty optimistic to assume some enterprising decker isn't going to figure out a way around it and sell cracked gear that acts as if it's wired, but isn't.



Any processing power the system actually needs can fit. And if it doesn't need it, again, say hello to Mr. Enterprising Decker.



This...is no way explains why I need my baton to be online in order for it to extend faster. It doesn't take processing power for that simple a command. Unless it's been deliberately modified to NEED more processing power, in which case...you get the idea.

Essentially, the entire idea of wireless bonuses revolve around the entire shadow community lying down and taking it. W don't see that today, with things as trivial as entertainment software. I think freelance black ops types are going to be willing to put in the effort to unfrag their gear so they don't HAVE to expose themselves to cyberattack just to get the most out of their stuff.

It's actually less complicated than drawing a pistol. A baton literally requires a snap of the wrist to deploy, which happens to closely match the movement needed to draw it. To draw a pistol, you not only need to clear the holster without snagging on something, but then disengage the safety and bring it on line and aim. In both cases, DNI won't help you, because it involves motor coordination.



Very much so. A baton weighs about a pound, which makes it a light, easily carried weapon. It's also very concealable, and not very cumbersome. When you add extra weight, you throw off the balance of the weapon, and make it harder to use. Think of it this way: a longsword might only weigh 2 lbs. But, if more weight is really more effective, why didn't they use 6 lb swords? 10 lbs? 20+? Well, that's because heavier weapons are harder to use.

As far as being taken from you? Sorry, but the rules say it takes a free action to extend or retract, not that you can't extend it manually-- or, that if it's taken from you, it'll automatically retract. So, that's rather pointless.


The bulk of the time involved in drawing any weapon is clearing the holster and bringing it on line. DNI won't help with that, and if the move to draw is combined with the move to deploy, there will be no time differential at all.

So you don't like the way 5e handles Simple vs. Free actions generally? That seems like a somewhat different complaint.


Well, we don't really know how an actual DNI system would work. According to RAW, it's simpler and easier than manually pushing a button. Is that idea fundamentally plausible? I think so.

Motor control, even though it feels to us very instinctive and often effortless, actually involves a great deal of careful coordination and precise timing. Your brain gets information from proprioception nerves that tell it about the orientation and position of your body, but there's a lag. It never actually knows where you are, only where you were. (In practice, when trying to move quickly your brain does a lot of guesswork, it simply can't afford to wait for these signals.)

Similarly, there's a lag between activating motor neurons and actually getting muscle movement. So, your brain doesn't send signals about what it wants your muscles to do now, it has to send signals about what it's going to want your muscles to do, taking into account the various differing lag times for different nerve fibers and muscle groups. It's like planning and running a fireworks show; you've got to set all the different rockets with their different fuses in just the right way to get the nicely coordinated series of explosions you're hoping for.

Now, for certain specific tasks, we can get pretty good at this, especially with training. But in general, it seems that we expend a great deal of (unconscious) mental work just trying to compensate for the fact that nerve impulses propagate very slowly, and certain problems are simply unavoidable.

In theory, I/O systems that could bypass our sluggish peripheral nervous system could be very nice indeed. The baton could tell you, instantly, with no lag¹, "Ok, your hand is on me, feels like a good grip. Ok, I'm clear of the holster." And you could tell it, instantly, with no lag¹, "Ok, deploy now."


Those games are generally artificially bound to be online, as a kind of DRM scheme. In 2015, we're not very good at DRM, so these systems are cracked very quickly.

I'm thinking more of actual limitations based on processing power. Like, that OnLive vaporware that was going to let you play the most demanding modern desktop games on your smartphone, by actually running the game on the Cloud. The economics of it don't seem to have worked out for OnLive, but in a world where bandwidth is cheap and abundant², the basic idea seems sound.


I'm not sure how you know this to be true? How much processing power is needed to run an extremely responsive DNI?


So, drawing and deploying a traditional retractable baton should be only 1 Simple action, not 2, because it takes about the same amount of time as drawing and readying a pistol? That strikes me as a reasonable sounding complaint, I know very little about the relative time involved in drawing and readying various weapons in the real world. Regardless, I don't think it's crazy to say that a DNI augmented one could be better than a traditional one.


By default, remote control has priority over manual control. I certainly would allow someone to send a message to their electronic baton to retract and stay retracted. (This would be a Free action, so, you could do it when it wasn't your turn, or even in an initiative pass where you don't get a turn.)

Other possible advantages: you can use it in very close quarters, just point it at the other guy, activate it, and it'll push him away, giving you distance; you could use it to poke at people, which I understand isn't generally advisable with traditional retractable batons; it's basically like a version of Sun Wukong's Compliant Staff, which is just cool. Even taking as given that it's heavier than a non-electronic one, that might be a tradeoff that people in setting are willing to make.


It's not just time, the difference between Free and Simple is a combination of time and mental effort. Wireless + DNIs are a pretty wonderful combination, they're just noticeably better and easier than even pushing a button.

Drawing, deploying, and getting into striking position are all separate noticeable stages in that video posted upthread. Now, visualizing the guy in the video just pulling the baton out and getting straight into striking position, with it deploying itself on the way; I can imagine that being slightly faster/easier. Oh, or imagine if you store it in a holster pointing downwards. Then, even as you're reaching for it, it starts extending slightly, so you can easily get a good initial grip with your whole hand, instead of first having to pull it out with a couple fingers and then solidifying your grip afterwards. Hm, if the DNI gives it good info on your hand's position and velocity, it could almost leap into your hand as you go for it.


--------------------------------
1. Well, if you're communicating with Cloud servers you'll get some lag, but measured in microseconds rather than milliseconds.

2. 2075 looks like a world with cheap and abundant bandwidth, I assume OAM or something similar panned out

Wait. DRM and encryption get better by 2070? I find this hard to believe, given everything about the setting. A novice hacker with $10,000 worth of gear* (or about as much as I paid for my used car or one SIXTH as much as my sister spent on her new horse) can hack into the systems of triple-A multinational trillion-dollar-bottom-line businesses in under a MINUTE.

*This is ignoring the total-bull of the hacking deck 5th introduced, prior to that you could use any old cell phone. But it's still only as expensive as last-year's model brand-new car.
I do respect that it should take more dough to be any good, there's just no good explanation for the change other than as a complete retcon because it was recognized as being bad before. Except it wasn't a retcon because ShadowRun never retcons anything.

Project bloat?

I am going with wireless access to all the porn in said cloud.

Teasing aside, quite a few items and their bonuses really didn't jive.

Look at the internal air tank with a wifi bonus to tell you what level of air is left.
Really? because that would have been right on top of my list of things that shouldn't be wireless.
Especially when you consider that if you try using this underwater at even fairly shallow depths, the water wrecks any signal rating so good luck guessing how full that tank is.

I'm agnostic on whether DRM is better or worse in 2075 (though, there is a lot of talk about buying music). If you continue reading the part of my post directly below the bit you quoted, you'll see that I'm actually talking about something different.


That makes no sense at all and is, I think, completely unjustifiable.

As are the vast majority of Wireless Bonuses in SR5. *shrug*

I honestly see where they were trying to go with this, the last few years technology went for wifi bonii in a few silly things
(Pace makers for one !!! )

and I guess it just didn't pan out the way they thought it would go, the same way any 1950's -1990s Sci-Fi attempted to predict mobile phones and flying cars ..

had it taken off, our suspense of utter disbelief may have been muted.

I can actually work my head around a few things and let it slide, and I guess I'm open to more houserules than most
especially the
"if it works better wired than wireless in hour head, then have the bonus"

Trying to make repercussions for tech heads the same as background count for mages .. is a tad silly.

I just can't get away from 3rd edition WIRES for everything after Matrix crash .... it's nicely dystopian enough for me ...

Made me laugh out loud.

It's not a concept without merit. In some cases you could totally justify some gear needing intense amount of processing power. In those cases, the gear would work on its own, but could work faster if you have access to the cloud. That fits in with the wireless bonus actually being a bonus.

The problem is that the implementation was sloppy and downright insulting to people's intelligence. Items and actions that should require NO processing power (let alone large quantities of it) require you to be online just to get basic use out of them. The bonuses didn't feel like bonuses, they left like essential parts of the systems that was only accessible if you made yourself vulnerable. Instead, it should have felt that you had the choice to squeeze more out of the gear in exchange for a little risk.

You're still thinking it happens sequentially. In real life, it happens simultaneously.

Let me use pistols as an example. You're thinking that the sequence goes a bit like this: Unstrap --> Clear Pistol --> Disengage Safety --> Bring on line --> Aim, etc. In reality, a lot of those steps will be happening parallel to each other, so it's a bit more like this:



I think the term for this is "critical path"-- since these things happen side by side, it's the time of the chains that matter. In this example, if the time to disengage the safety and aim is less than the time to clear the holster and bring online, it doesn't make any difference at all. So, even if it provided a significant time savings (which is still highly debatable), it'd make no difference overall.

Also, the rest of what you're describing-- the gun and DNI helping you with the position of the gun-- isn't part of DNI at all. Those abilities are part of a smartlink and/or skillwire system. There used to be smartlinks-a-la-carte rules, where you could buy the components of a smartlink separately. That's long gone, but the breakdown of what goes into a smartlink is still valid-- in this case, it's not the gun that reads your body position, but the limited simrig that connects to the smartlink processor. So, what you're talking about does exist, but it's not part of DNI-- they're part of other pieces of gear/cyber.


The problem is that it takes an action. So, the other guy has a chance to take your baton and beat you repeatedly about the head before you can tell it to retract. It's not like a biometric safety (which is an added extra), if someone steals your gun, they can shoot you before you can make it disengage.


Batons are actually ideal for use in close quarters, the arc required to deploy one is identical to the arc required to use it, so if you have enough room to effectively attack, you have room to extend the baton. This isn't like a longsword, which requires a fair amount of room to draw. You most certainly *can* poke at people with an extended baton; their locking mechanism is very sturdy. In fact, retracting one can be kind of difficult.

As far as the extendable staff idea goes, that's simply not practical with a baton. Batons tend to be about 20-22 inches when extended (about 53cm), which simply isn't far enough to give an effective push. If I remember my mythology right, the Monkey King's staff could shoot out infinitely, so he could do stunts like push people over cliffs, trip people across the room, etc. 20 inches just won't cut it.


They did break it down for the layman, but in reality, they're not distinct steps. They happen in parallel. You don't need it pointing downwards, either; the simple act of drawing and getting the baton into position coincides with the arc required to extend the baton. So, the critical path analysis says the important time is the longest one-- how long it takes to draw and get into position. DNI can't help with that.

The critical path analysis is very interesting, but keep in mind, the difference between Simple and Free is not just timing, it's also a question of mental effort/focus/coordination. DNIs are so easy to use, you can control things linked to them significantly more easily than you could push a button or flick a switch.

This makes sense to me, since you're able to bypass slow sensory neurons giving you information about what your hand is doing, and bypass slow motor neurons giving the hand further instructions, which will generally need to be queued up and fired off well in advance to do things in a reasonably timely manner¹.


I'm a little confused by the gun talk, can we stick to batons for now? As to what exactly Wireless + DNI gets you, I'd say that's pretty up in the air. In general, a DNI has the potential to be a very valuable high speed two-way street, getting you information from the device as well as allowing you to send commands.


You can take your Free action whenever you want, it doesn't have to be on your turn. You even get one on initiative passes where you aren't allowed to otherwise act. If you already used your Free action for this initiative pass, you're out of luck until the next initiative pass starts, but, how's the guy getting the baton away from you and hitting you with it all on the same initiative pass?


The bit of text you quoted there actually includes me speculating about ways DNI could help you draw your baton more quickly and easily…


--------------------------------------
1. Cool little story: In order to hit an MLB fastball, batters need to make all the decisions about how they'll swing, and queue up all the relevant nerve impulses, shortly after the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. (To be a good batter you have to become very good at reading pitches very quickly.) This, despite the fact that it takes more than 400 milliseconds for a 95 mph fastball to travel from the mound to home plate. There is a lot of room here to trim fat.

No, that isn't my complaint. My point was that your analysis of Free Actions being based on the mental effort/focus/coordination breaks down when you compare the mental effort/focus/coordination of extending a baton as a simple action to the effort of many of the other free actions. It doesn't mean the system of how Free Actions are selected is bad, it just means I disagree with your explanation.

Further, even if suspension of disbelief can be used to make wireless extension an improvement over a button push, there are still other technologies that exist today that would be more useful then a mental command. For example, my camera has a sensor next to the electronic viewfinder that causes it to automatically activate when something (usually your face) is near the sensor and to deactivate, preserving battery, when there isn't. If you are going to install electronic controls for the extension of a baton a sensor like that would be superior to any mental activation. Simply put a sensor and the end of the baton that causes it to automatically extend when it is no longer blocked by the holster. That removes any possiblity of human error from thinking the "extend" command at the wrong time. A simple switch could be added, which can be switched on/off to prevent the baton from unextending after it is drawn. Since it doesn't take an action to switch off the safety of a gun, it shouldn't take an action to switch off the safety of a baton.

The ability to make the baton unextend if taken by an enemy might be a real benefit if a wireless interface, but it has no bearing whatsoever on the Free/Simple action analysis.ic



Weren't you arguing that quick and easy aren't the grounds for a free action? Perfectly timing an early extend so you catch it in your hand without dropping it might make the action ever so slightly faster, but it also increases the effort/coordination required to make sure you don't drop it or hit yourself with the extending baton.

That's actually more complex, because DNI would involve giving multiple commands. When you draw a baton, you do it in one smooth action, drawing and deploying all at once. The way you describe, you'd have to get the right movements and mental commands in the right order, or your baton will deploy at the wrong time.

Let me try a martial arts analogy. When you're a beginner-- or explaining things to a beginner, as in the video above-- it's helpful to list things in sequence. But when you actually make a kick, you don't think about the sequence, you think of it as one fluid motion. Thinking sequentially actually slows you down, makes the movement less effective, even if you have a bit of assistance.


Well, we can be reasonably sure it doesn't trespass on what other pieces of gear do. The level of assistance you describe is closer to skillwires in function.


There's lots of different ways. If you deploy your baton at the wrong time via DNI, you could drop it (note that this isn't really possible with a manual swing). Then, they take a simple action to pick it up, and then beat you with it.


The problem is that a lot of that is muscle memory, training-based. DNI can't help there. Skillwires could, that's their job, but DNI alone won't make a difference.

My complaint with 5e can come from a single example because it's the same problem over and over again. 4e had a stupid way of resisting mental spells, they were simply too powerful because it was attribute+skill vs attribute which means the non mage always looses without mage friends to help just due to the mage is spending his karma there where as the other guy may have no reason to raise his willpower other than pesky mind control resistance. 5e "fixes" it by using attribute + attribute wait but doesn't that break the consistency much like the complaint of the default 4e matrix rules? This is the fundamental problem with 4e and 5e, anyone else remember how pre 4eA 4e had the karma costs for attributes lower? But the build pt cost was the same? Until fans pointed it out that there was no reason to buy attributes at character creation because they were cheaper to buy with karma no one seemed to notice. It like there is no understanding of the way the rules impact the game by the persons writing the rules. I know this is not the case but that's the book I keep getting. If in the above case had gone with willpower+counterspelling but anyone can take counterspelling then we see npcs like the company man with counterspelling 4 on his stat sheet, I'd have wished it was a different skill but at least the mechanic would be consistent. That's my problem with 5e in a nutshell I expected it to improve on these consistency issues with 4e and what I got was new inconsistencies.

But, aren't you arguing that pushing a button should be a Free action? I'm a little confused here.

The idea that Simple vs. Free is a combination of time and effort/focus/coordination makes a lot of sense to me, especially with things like Running. (Because you have to focus on running, right?) Do you disagree? You think some other criterion divides Simple and Free actions?


Interesting argument. But, it doesn't strike me as implausible that leveraging the metahuman mind will get you better results than relying on the baton to make it's own decisions. Maybe you don't want it to extend as soon as it clears the holster, maybe you want to point it at the other guy first, then extend, push him away. Maybe you want it to start extending while still in the holster, to make it easier to grab. Maybe you're trying to pull it out and drop it on the ground very carefully, without making any sudden movements, and having it shoot out suddenly could be very very bad for you.

Some of these cases can be handled with the incorporation of a safety switch, as you suggest, but, RAW suggests that systems using a DNI are simply quicker and easier to use than ones that require pushing buttons and flicking switches, and I think that idea is fundamentally plausible.


Since they don't exist in the real world, we don't really know how super-responsive DNIs will function in 2075. But, I, at least, can imagine that a system that can bypass our (slow, buggy) peripheral nervous system could be not just faster/easier, but more reliable as well.

Once you've made the decision that you want to push a button (or turn off the safety) and extend the baton, you're looking at a minimum delay of about 70 milliseconds before the button is actually depressed. (20 milliseconds of nerve conduction time, 50 milliseconds between when the muscles get the nerve impulse and when you actually get perceptible contraction.) In addition, if you're relying on your sense of touch to tell you when you've got a good grip on the baton, and your proprioception nerves to tell you how your hand/arm are oriented, you'll have to wait a good bit before you actually know that everything is set up for deployment.

In practice, your brain will probably just send the commands (many overlapping or in parallel), "Get into position, grab the baton, move it this way, then push the deploy button" and hope that everything goes right. But, lots of room for error there, and lots of (unconscious) mental effort to set up the sequence just right.


For the most part, I agree. I'm afraid I'm trying to conduct two separate arguments at the same time, there may have been some confusing crossover.

Cain objects to the idea of an electronic baton in the first place, so, I'm trying to present him with reasons why one might be preferable to a traditional mechanical baton. At the same time, others seem to be arguing that an electronic baton would be better controlled by a button rather than a DNI, so I'm also presenting reasons why, given that you're carrying an electronic baton, a DNI might be the preferred way to interface with it.

The ability to collapse your baton after it's grabbed by someone else is an advantage for any electronic baton. The only thing the DNI specifically gets you is that it makes it somewhat faster and/or easier for you to collapse the baton after it's been grabbed. (It makes it a Free action rather than Simple)


Depends how much work the DNI does for you. (Which feeds into another disagreement I seem to have with many posters, over how much processing power you'd actually need to set up an extremely responsive/helpful DNI system.) Tossing something from my left hand to my right hand is harder than just reaching and grabbing something with my right hand. But, a big part of why that kind of coordination is difficult comes down to synchronization while dealing with different lags. It's like the fireworks show example (where you've got to deal with variable lags from fuses and flight time etc.) only now we're trying to run two fireworks shows at once, and we need to make sure that the finales sync up nicely.

Imagine if we could cut out the lags; we've got some kind of magic fireworks. They instantaneously teleport to the correct position and explode, all at the push of a button. Now, it should be a lot easier to get the sync right.

So, if your DNI baton wants to help you grab it, can give you instantaneous updates on how you've gripped it, can instantaneously move to help you grab it, I can imagine that being both faster and easier than just pulling out a dumb piece of metal from a holster.


Right, I don't disagree, but keep in mind that any martial arts training you've ever done or witnessed has been for humans with human peripheral nervous systems, with no way of bypassing those systems. The best way to deal with the limitations of the nervous system is to queue up and send lots of commands, many of them overlapping or in parallel, as you say, in just the right way so that the right muscle groups will hopefully activate in just the right order.

But, if we start removing some of the limitations of the peripheral nervous system? I think all bets are off.


As I understand it, skillwires bypass your ordinary nervous system, sending overriding commands to your various muscle groups, controlling how they move. I'm not talking about that here, I don't think. You still have to control the hand that grabs and swings the baton.


Are Simple melee attacks a thing from one of the expansion books? I've only read the core. As far as I know, in core 5e, there's no way to attack in melee with a Simple action. If he picks the baton up with a Simple, he'll have to wait until the next initiative pass to swing at you, and by then you'll have a Free action you can use to retract it before he swings.


Hm, perhaps you missed the second part of that quote of mine? Here's the second half of the quote that you responded to by saying, "...the important time is the longest one-- how long it takes to draw and get into position. DNI can't help with that."

That doesn't seem to have anything to do with skillwires?

Not necessarily, I just think DNI extension and pushing a button should be treated as the same type of action.



The idea might make sense, but in analysis of the actions chosen as Free Actions, it isn't the idea that was actually used. Probably for gameplay reasons, the designers decided to make movement, communication and self-disarming actions (drop object, stop sustaining spell) to be free actions, while making actions that prepare for combat, e.g., drawing weapons, aiming, simple actions. Then, in 5th edition, they decide to break this philosophy by providing a wireless bonus for extending a baton to try to force players to make an in-game decision to use wireless features.



I'd like to point out this kind of thinking isn't relevant to the wireless bonus chosen. The game rules don't require you to combine drawing the baton and extending the baton in order to get the bonus. You can draw the baton and decide to extend it 20 round later and the wireless bonus still makes the extension a free action.



This is the part that is relevant, and it brings us back to my original point. If such a minimal benefit between wireless v. pushing a button justifies a Free v. Simple action. Then the fact that pushing a button is substantially faster than gesticulating or running should make pushing a button a Free action v. a Simple action for running. The rules don't provide for this in comparing pushing a button to running, so the rules also should not provide for this in comparing DNI extension v. pushing a button.



You can't possibly be relying upon your sense of touch because, again, you can draw the baton, twirl it around, throw it at someone, pick it up, twirl it around some more, take a nap, and then decide to wireless extend it and still get a bonus compared to pushing a button.



Perhaps the opponent has higher initiative and chose to act after you in the first pass. They use a simple action to pick up the baton after you drop it in the first pass and a Complex action to attack you in the second pass before it is your action.

Not quite correct. They had "broken" that alleged philosophy in previous editions as well, where DNI (either specialiced forms like Smartlink or more general DNI- adaptations for gear) itself altered some of those "preparing" actions from "single" to "free". The change for 5th Ed. is that now you not only need DNI but must have an operational / hackable online connection as well in order to gain that previously established benefit.

Well, I disagree, for reasons I've discussed upthread, but if you didn't find my reasons convincing before I don't suppose you will now.


Also, in 5e, Calling a Shot and Multi-target Attacks use up your Free Action, so, not just movement, communication, and self-disarming. I think the main mechanical things about Free actions are that they can be combined with other things, and can be done when it isn't your turn, both of which suggest to me some combination of speed and ease/parallelism. Here's how they're described in the corebook: "Free Actions are relatively simple, nearly automatic actions that require little effort to accomplish."


True, but that can be understood as a simplifying abstraction. "Ok, we agree that a DNI baton should be slightly quicker and easier to both draw and ready than a traditional baton. How can we reflect that using our ruleset? Well, normally, drawing and readying a baton costs 2 Simple actions, let's change it so DNI batons instead require 1 Simple and 1 Free? Cool, sounds good enough to me."


Nah, you can use your Free before your Action Phase if you want. It doesn't refresh on your Action Phase, it refreshes at the top of the initiative pass.

Didn't 3rd Edition have way more Free Actions?

Like you got one Free Action for everyone acting after your first Action that round?

Pretty much. In detail:

You had a Free Action during any actually existing Combat Phase beginning with your first own Combat Phase during the first Initiative Pass. So the number of free actions depended upon how many people participated in the encounter under combat rules. Free actions during your own Combat Phase could be used at any point of said Combat Phase and you were allowed to use further Free Actions in place of Single Actions. Free Actions during Combat Phases by other characters always occured after whatever that other character did.

Adepts could get an additional Free Action via the Multitasking power during their own Combat Phases.

I understand we will likely disagree on whether the "wireless v. push button" justifies a "simple v. free action" change, I thought there was still some value in debating that is the only potential basis for the benefit based on the rules.



You can push a button while swinging a baton.



Right, but actions speak louder than words, so making an action like flicking your wrist to extend a button, (or even pulling a trigger to be perfectly honest) a simple action, while making an action like dropping to the ground without hurting yourself a free action, suggests that purported explanation of how they selected Free Actions isn't really true. Again, I'm not necessarily criticizing the choice of what is a free v. simple action, just pointing out the choices don't conform to the stated reason.



Well, they could have made the wireless bonus a "quick draw" in which you both draw the weapon and extend it in a single simple action (or a simple + free action), but making it cost a full simple if you extend the baton in a subsequent turn/pass. That would account for your other beneficial theories by tying the extension bonus in with the draw. They didn't do that, so by game rules those other theories as to how the DNI makes drawing the baton easier can't be true.



Oh, I didn't realize they changed that from 4A.

Well, not necessarily without hurting yourself, more like, without giving yourself a box of damage. If someone is jogging along, and then they throw themselves down to avoid a spray of machine gun fire, I imagine they might get scraped up, but not to such an extent that it's worth tracking. Certainly not if we're going to have to try to write up some kind of check to avoid taking damage from dropping, with a threshold based on how rough/hard the surface we're standing on is...

In any case, hitting the dirt feels like something people might do reflexively/automatically. So, I think it makes sense as a Free Action under the framework the designers claim they used.


Oh yeah, that would work too, I didn't think of that. Little bit more complicated, but it would also fit. So, if you don't like the idea that the DNI baton is also easier to draw, you can just say it's purely, "manual control -> Simple; use DNI -> Free".

Who extends the Baton ?
is it the Charackter himself or is it the DNI / the Matrix ?
If the Char extends the baton himself then how can he extend the Baton faster when he is doing it with DNI & manually than when he is doing it manually alone ???
and if the DNI or the Matrix extends the Baton how does the matrix do that physical "task" ???

with a Dance with a lot of ?
Medicineman

The character uses the DNI to extend the baton. The baton is electronic, so it can be controlled electronically. Using a DNI is easier than using manual controls.

Which part of that do you have a problem with?

There is nothing in the text (neither Fluff nor Crush) that says that there are any electronical or mechanichal mechanisms inside the telescopic Baton.and for 100 ¥ this would be a rather cheap baton.
how much is a telescopic Baton without any mechanisms, a plain old standard baton (like one from today) ?
and if its controlled via DNI and the matrix what is the range of the remote control extending ?

the same questions for a throwing knifes or Shuriken.
What kind of Mechanisms are inside a throwing Knive or Shuriken, that lets them change the Course in midflight
how much is a Throwing Knife or Shuriken WITHOUT these mechanisms ?

HokaHey
Medicineman

Without the Mechanisms it would be considered a Throwback, and there is no cost difference between Wifi Items and Throwbacks,

I didn't ever think it would be electronic, it would be silly to go backwards to require a battery when these exist,
Automatic telescoping baton
I can see DNI making the safety de-activation and triggering a much quicker action

Nano-bots .... little ones !
yes sarcasm, just in case anyone is wondering ... no, the book doesn't always make sense.
Shuriken can change vector ? ... oh cripes ... I'm keeping my players on 3rd edition ... Troll Bows are the worst I need to contend with, makes me happy

Easy Answer, but the questions do bear thinking about.
I too would like to know what mechanisms exist in a Shuriken or Throwing Knife that allows them to alter course mid-flight.

The easy answer is that the bonus is handwavium to force you onto the matrix to create vulnerabilities that the Hacker can now exploit. Even the Designer of the abilities says that. They were grounded in the rule of cool only. I think his rule of cool is far different than MY rule of cool is.

okay ... I need to get off youtube

in the first few seconds of the above clip the guy says he got something else from the same place as the Baton .

WTF! Shock Gloves exist ???

Stop the planet I wanna get off..

No .. I REALLY need to stop ... 8.8 million Volts Ninja sword

Shocking I know.

Booooooo...
I'm just curious which Nuclear Power Plant is powering the Ninja Sword. And are they using Tesla's work to do so?

is it a throwback because it has no WiFi mechanism ?
are all Items without a WiFi Mechanism a throwback?
than an ordinary Knife is also a throwback ? or a Combat knife ?
and You say that an Item with a mechanical & eledtronical Mechanism costs the same as one without ?
OK, than how much is a Combat Knife WITH this electronical ane Mechanical Mechanism and what is the WiFi Bonus.
(or why is it without any Bonus?)
Why does a Throwing knife have a WiFi Bonus but an Arrow does not ???

JahtaHow
Medicineman

Well, they specifically say it can be extended with a wireless signal. I'm not sure what you think they meant by that? As for the pricing, you can get a cheap commlink for 100¥, so, low end electronics look to be pretty affordable in 2075.


The range is basically arbitrary long if you have Wireless on the baton enabled. Though, that's not really terribly useful most of the time.


Maybe something like what they're putting into experimental .50 sniper rifle rounds nowadays. As for why the mechanisms only exist in throwing knives, maybe they require a certain amount of space? Or they take a certain amount of time to deploy?

Honestly, I'm more surprised that guided ammunition isn't more widespread in sci-fi, it's a pretty commonsense incremental improvement over what we have now. (Though, I think Vinge did include it in his Peace War books at some point.)

Actually, wait, looking at the entry for these myself, the bonus only applies if you have a smartlink enabled. So I'd say it's just the knives talking to your smartlink that provides the bonus, not some kind of in-flight course correction. "Hey, FYI, bit of a breeze blowing, looks like I'm going to end up going a bit wide as a result, next time throw a bit more to the right." That sort of thing. Since thrown knives move a good bit more slowly than arrows or bullets, it makes sense that their on-board sensors could gather more useful information.


By RAW, they cost the same. I'd probably give a player a discount though if they wanted dumb throwing weapons.

OK, but If you have a WiFi Bonus for one Kind of Items you must apply it to other similar or same Items too !
( since (according to Shaiidar) the Price for amn Item with or without WiFi Bonus is the same you can and MUST fit every Item with a WiFi Bonus in order to balance things out)

If Throwing Knives have this WiFi Bonus, other Items like Arrows must have that Bonus too.
The telescopic Baton's WiFi Bonus must also be used for the Urban Tomahawk f.E. that means reading the Weapon turns from simple Action into a free Action !
or a fast Draw Holster that means the act of fast Drawing turns from simple Action to free Action.
And not only for Weapons.
opening an old fashioned Door should be a complex Action (this is my guess, i didn't find any crunch about ist) with a WiFi bonus (and those electronic and mechanicall mechanisms that work for the Telscopic Baton or the telsccpic Staff )
opening Doors becomes a simple Action.
Yes.
You can't apply the WiFi just to a few Items.
Because it makes absolutely NO sense and would kick the Ass of Reason if you do NOT apply the WiFi Bonus to other Items too.
(the only problem is, that the developer forgot to write down what exactly the WiFi Bonus is, but most often it gives a Dice Pool Bonus (like with the Laserpointer or the Throwing Knife) it lowers the Speed of an Action by one "degree" (Simple Action become free Action) or it gives a complete independant Bonus because it adds a functionality which is WiFi Exclusive (like the Silencer which has a WiFi Software only )
Yes .You have to apply a WiFi Bonus to all Items that have a WiFi connection !

with a WiFi connected Dance
Medicineman

I'm sorry, I don't really understand the nature of your complaint. Are you discussing (1) game balance, (2) setting verisimilitude, or (3) ruleset completeness?

I would happily discuss any of these with you, but, reading your post, I'm not quite clear on what you find upsetting exactly.

I'm not complaining anything
I'm just trying to understand.... where You are coming from ( i think that is the right expression)
and I'm just following a string of logical thoughts


nothing at all
maybe that CGL didn't put more WiFi Bonuses in crunch. Now we GMs have to do the work and add WiFi Bonuses to each and every Item to see how the SR5 Shadowrun world works out Ingame. And what consequences there are for a total WiFI World.
I'm just extrapolating from the already existing WiFi Bonuses (f.E. from WiFi Bonuses to throwing Knives ---> WIFI Bonuses for Arrows which CGL forgot to write down)

with a consequent Dance
Medicineman

Well, you're free to write up new Wireless bonuses if you want to, but, there are reasons why things that might work with a thrown knife wouldn't necessarily work with an arrow. An arrow travels much faster than a thrown knife, meaning that it has less time to gather useful sensor data, and, any on-board sensors are more likely to be damaged or destroyed on impact.

A thrown knife can travel at about 15 m/s. An arrow can do something like 90 m/s. That's a sixfold increase. Comparing a thrown knife to an arrow is about the same as comparing an arrow to a bullet.

If, in the Gear section, they'd put tracking/guidance sensors on arrows, would you be on the boards talking about how they should also have put tracking/guidance sensors in bullets as well? You've gotta draw the line somewhere, yeah?

hmmm, well,.....
The SR5 World is full of WiFi Bonuses thats the new...Baseline (?) Default setting in SR5
so its our Job to introduce/implant all of these intou our Gaming Sessions
so that every player can enjoy them.So the Line is not yet reached (by far not reached)



A Laserpointer gets a Plus +1 Bonus from being connected to the Matrix WiFi ,and Light is even faster than an Arrow
so ,no the Arrow can get the Bonus too ! and Light is also faster than a Bullet. I wonder what the WiFi Bonus should be for Bullets....
I think I'll give Laserweapons a +1 DP Bonus when they're WiFi ,just like Laserpointers...

So activating a Laser Pointer is a free action...
is that a WiFi Bonus too ??
it must be because activating things without WiFi Bonus is alwasy a simple Action....
Cool. a Laserpointer has two WiFi Bonuses...

I got a question, maybe You can help:
real Laserpointers activate automatically if you pull the trigger lightly. No extra Action needed....
why do you need to spend an extra free Action in SR5 ?
and If my Char wants to make a called shot which is a free Action he can't activate a Laserpointer to help him aim ?
can You explain that ?


You're totally right with that .I agree


with a very fast Dance
Medicienman