but that can fall out. and doesn't provide the potential for total body override like a datajack. and you take a non-cruel chunk of power from your inmates. datajacks are so common according to teh fluff text in several books that a person without, awakened or not might potentially be considered wierd by some folks.

See edit above.

'Course, a datajack can "fall out" just as easily, if not moreso. Hence the locked rig; a full-head harness that's locked on that can't be jiggled lose. Far more secure than a simple plug in the head, cheaper, and thus less invasive/illegal to implement.

I did not the jack stop, didn't I? but my impressionof the trode rig was that it wasn't as fully immersive for the user, where the jack was.

They only difference is one of speed while decking (half Reaction and max Initiative of 2D6) and that it takes 3 Combat Turns to put on.

good to know. my next awakened character may have computer skill after all.

According to MitS, the standard procedure involves feeding the prisoners a continous simsense feed that gives them a +10 to any ability requiring any kind of concentration (and that includes magic, folks) and a Willpower (14) test for astral projection.

And electrode simsense connection is just as immersive as the datajack one, for purpose of simsense expereince intensity. There is a lowered decking speed, but that's all. Lock the elctrode simsense harness, and your criminal magician is effectively neutralized.

It would take a double-digit initiate with obscene ratings in Willpower, Sorcery, Conjuration, and Centering Skill to effectively use magic with such penalties. Sure, once in a blue moon, one can get lucky; that's why you keep around some Awakened prison guards, wards, and spirits. But nothing more than ordinary magical security. The State, or the contracted corp running prison security can easily afford it.

I'd say that lockable electrode rigs are the norm. They are reusable, and cheaper than fitting each convict a datajack.

So it's cruel and unusual to make someone a normal human being, but not to deprive them of the ability to concentrate? That just doesn't make any sense.

But as far as the simsense thing goes, giving everyone a datajack WOULD encourage them to use magic less in the future by lowering their magic rating. Or it would encourage them to get initiated, one of the two.

The difference is that the inability to concentrate isn't permanent.

~J

The resulting insanity may well be, however

Great so instead of predicatble shamans or hermetics we might wind up with a pack of Path of Madness people? that's an angle I hadn't thought of

Really? Hmm. Must have been remembering an old book then. Oh well. Guess plants aren't what they used to be.

As long as they make entrance and exiting 1) alarmable and 2) time-consuming, there's going to be very little concern about the precious few criminals who can get around a magemask and simsense feed. Astral projection can let one get one, but there's one tiny problem. Their real bodies are still stuck behind bars. And harm done to that, is done to the projector.

Cattle prod + meat body = disrupted projector and baaaaaaad consequences.

Man, Never underestimate the ability of someone to do damage to the outside world through communication. Unmonitored communication with the outside world is a bad, bad thing. Projection facilitates this. They can listen to conversations (with a built in lie detector). use your imagination how bad that could be.

Once again, any inmate could concievably escape prison. However, unlike other inmates, a projecting magician is screwed. Period.

It's also not like there's going to be a hoard of high-grade initiates in prison -- if they're really that high grade, chances are they didn't get caught without going down in a hail of gunfire or spellslinging. Your typical magician is screwed by the simsense and/or magemask alone. Those precious few who do manage to get around that and still have the 'nads to try and project despite the reprecussions deserve everything they suffer when they try to do so. Assuming they even succeed.

Again, they're going to have to get past at least one powerful (alarm) ward, biofiber, guardian vines, and probably even a few bound elementals doubtlessly patrolling the facility. Note also that only about 1/10th of the prison needs to be guarded as such, and probably far less than that.

But let's say they get around all of that. Once they're out... so what? It's extremely doubtful that they managed to do it undetected and now their meatbody is utterly screwed. It only takes a single unresisted jolt from a cattle prod to bring the idiot back to his body, and hell, I can even see the simsense/'trode net monitoring their vitals or concentration and triggering a KO shock (or even drug dose) as a failsafe, especially on high-risk prisoners.

Should they somehow manage to get out undetected, they're obviously a phenomenal outlayer to begin with -- just like any successful escapee.

Regardless, all of that is still far cheaper and far more legal than permanently crippling the magician or even installing a single datajack in a single prisoner.

Ares Transcript:
Hello colonist! Welcome to Seti Alpha Five, your new home! If you work hard to terraform this planet, you will once again be able to use your magical powers! So work hard, work well, and life will grow!

I seriously doubt that making a magican mundane would be even remotely praticed (except for the worst possible offenders) for the simple reason that no magican would ever go down without a fight if they knew their was even a 25% chance they would perminantly lose all their magic. I for one would much rather die in a firefight where I incinerated 5 to 10 cops than lose all my magic. And whats more before they could even use the procedure theirs a good chance that the magician will have an oppertunity to resist and go down fighting

All I can say ROUS is that your expectations of what would happen in a prison and what you think would be normal reveal the fact that you do not work in one. Almost nothing like that, especially to that degree is really viable.

Yes, and I'm sure you work in one. Complete with magicians. And where they regularly perform invasive surgery to implant datajacks in their prisoners, or worse, cripple them for life just because of they have abilities that the majority do not. Even if those abilities had nothing to do with the crime the prisoner commited.

If so, you got me there. Might as well just put a bullet in every prisoner's brain. No security needed that way.

BTY: George Fell was one of the operators on the first electric chair. It was also the name I gave one of my characters who worked in a shadowrun prison.

One thing to think about here is, how many prisons for the awakened are necessary? There's a small percentage of the population that's awakened, a smaller percentage that learn to use magic for anything remotely useful, and any of these that aren't completely shiftless or psychotic pretty much have guaranteed access to a nice, high-paying job whenever they want it. I'd say the government could afford a few extra-high security prisons. I certainly wouldn't expect one in every state.

What are the physiological effects of astral projection? (I don't have my BBB with me.)

Is there anything? A change in brainwave pattern, a drop in vital signs/metabolic function?

If so, you could basically rig this gear up into a secure headpiece:
1) 2 digital cameras, over each eye.
2) 2 digital displays, again one for each eye (to keep binocular vision and depth perception)
3) Something to detect the appropriate physiological change... standard monitor of some sort, probably.
4) Tazer.

So, mage has no line of sight at all, but is still fully capable -- only his magic ability is removed. Meanwhile, astral projection is blocked by the tazer, which will jolt the magician until he either comes back or takes Deadly stun (and thus is disrupted).

This wouldn't cost all that much, would pretty much take care of itself (the cameras and stuff would barely use up any electricity, and you'd have plenty of time to recharge after a discharge), and would be easy to use, especially since it would very rarely be necessary.

Edit: Though I suppose the mage could simply use magic to disable the headgear... if he had a spell that he could reasonably cast on his own head that would destroy the tazer in one shot. Something that specifically targeted headwear -- "Wreck Hat" or something? Or maybe the simsense feed could include the input from the digital cameras, so that the prisoner can still see the room, except in SimSense form?

That said, wouldn't prisons have FAB or wards anyway? Don't you want to keep astral forms OUT as well as IN?

Person 404 brings up a point I almost made yesterday. If you've got a mage in jail, he's likely an official "waste of life". I have a feeling that the vast majority of mages find themselves with a "work instead of jail" option. For the others, they're either insane, useless, or hold odd ideas about "personal freedom". All cases where removing the magic center of their brain would be a favor for society as a whole.

And let us not forget, the implantation of a datajack, according to the BBB (IIRC) is not considered invasive. it's a 2 hours task on an outpatient basis, you walk in, your get the implant, you walk out and either have a stiff neck or a slight headache for a day or two. I've had more hassle getting new glasses.

Also, a projecting mage is not limited to communication. They are able to attack astral forms, possess and become more powerful (astral quests).

You could of course just run them through brain washing to fear projection on threat of death.

Cruel and Unusual. I can say you can't use a computer during your probation, but I can't give you a lobotomy so you can't use a computer again. Hell, Kevin Mitnick's on the internet again.

If Single-A rated corps can afford wards, elementals, watchers, etc., why wouldn't a prison? Besides, why make every prison Mage-proof? You'd just need a couple of them. And you could always just ley very thick ivy grow around the cell walls.

The Abstruse One

Just how many large, magical-security prisons would be required? Can someone more knowledgeable about the RL prison system give us some numbers? How many inmates are there in total? How many does an average prison hold? A large prison? I have no idea how many prisons are in the country. So how many large prisons would we need to contain (for simplicity's sake) 1% of the inmates?

Unless they're using BTL or even CalHot levels of simsense, it shouldn't be much of an issue anyway. The simsense feed could even be of their everyday life, too. But since it's a simulation, there's nothing they can do to affect it with their magic.

I also have little doubt that by 2064 they'd have some medical means to tell when magic is being used, especially if a full simsense 'trode net was in use at the time. Heck, just putting some FAB-II in a ring around the head harness' neck that gets a regular refill, and then having sensors monitor the luminescence thereof, should be enough to send a warning to the jailers and/or trigger a KO drug or electric shock to incapacitate the prisoner.

A short trip down with a sudden stop I'd imagine.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm
There you go.

2,033,331 inmates per year average in 2002. Take that and 1% of the total number of incarcerated persons that would be magically active would be 203,333 in any given year. Violent crimes convictions make up consistently nearly half of that. That's a whole freaking lot of prisoners.

while I'm at it, http://www.doc.state.nc.us/DOP/cost/cost2001.htm. That details the cost of housing each inmate in 2001.

That cost increases dramatically when the inmate requires dircect contact and monitoring, specifically medical.

Yes, I do work in a jail, for the LVMPD. This has been no hidden fact for the last few years I have posted here.

The number of mages would probably be lower than 1% of prison population simply because mages would, because of their abilities, tend to cluster higher on the socioeconomic spectrum than the general mishmash of mundane humanity.

~J

That's a very very bad assumption The world is full of morons with no ambition not living up to their potential. That doesnt change because they are magically active. Most people are ignorant and happy to stay that way. Magic would just be an easier path to crime. There would be a whole pile of incompetent half ass mages, just like now there are a whole pile of incompetent half ass humans.

But most skillsets that would otherwise be unused generally aren't actively hunted for by pretty much every corporation out there.

~J

No, I realize that, but im trying to say that 80% of the people out there you don't WANT to give that amount of power to, that's a Bad Thing™! I'm saying that it's good on paper but its just a really bad idea in the real world. It's really hard to explain just how jackassed criminal mentality is without spending a decent amount of time around them. Most of them wouldn't do the work to keep a good paying job if it bit them on the ass. Its pretty damn frightening really.

Also, you don't tend to be knocked unconscious when trying to turnon your computer when you aren't a very proficient or ambitious new user. Magic however has a potentially far more significant darwin effect.

There is a difference between Allowable punishment and maximum punishment.

just because the death penalty is available doesn't mean every criminal found guilty of it will be subjected to it.

You cannot rehabilitate a dead inmate. Every human being has an obligation to every other human being to be a productive member of society. Criminals are not productive members on the grand scale. They steal productivity from companies which directly steals money from everyone's pocket that does business with or for the companies.

Rehabilitate the criminal, show them there are options available to them that do not necessitate the use of violence on others to survive, that do not require underhanded or shady doings to get by and impress upon them the effects of the harm they have done to others and will do if they do not change their ways. If through all this a person does not respond, does not mend their ways, then society, to protect itself must remove them from the social group, such a person should be isolated from others, and given intensive education in basic reading and writing, taught a trade that will not make them a 'better criminal' and be put to work as productive persons (note I did not say citizens, inmates in a prison system do not and should not have the same rights and priveledges of a free law abiding citizen, to do otherwise invites criminal activity).

To ensure that a rehabilitated person is not coerced through social pressure to resume their criminal beghavior, society must strive to remove the stigma of 'ex-con'. History has taught us that people with such a past are given little opportunity to not return to teh old ways. They are repeatedly harrassed, they are shuned, they are denied work, yet we as a society are 'shocked' when they return to their crimnial behavior and we blame the system for failing us and them.

Inhumane? Try to convince a dozen mundane humans (ie, the Supreme Court of whatever its equivalent is) that making someone have the same magical ability as they personally possess is inhumane. If someone's above normal, cutting them down to normal is not inhumane.

I'd wager many folks would look at it much akin to laws which prevent felons from owning guns. Magic is a deadly weapon, and if you've used it that way once, you don't even need to aquire a new spell to use it that way twice. This is already supposing that the reformable mages (ie, those willing to work for the capturing corp or Lone Star, the government, etc) are taken out of the pool. I'm also not talking about a mage who goes down for tax evasion or the like. Violent felonies in which magic is the tool or an accessory seems to fit the bill pretty well.

I'd wager magically aggravated homicide would be a crime worthy of removal of all magic. How is knowing he might get turned mundane any worse than a life sentance in simsense prison? That'd be like saying that the three strikes laws generate more crime because the criminal knows he's going away for a long time if he gets caught (which, while possibly true, isn't a good reason not to use such laws or deterents).

Society determines what is humane and what is not. There are many societies on earth, even know, who set the bar for inhumane acts much lower than even that. Sure, it seems inhumane to treat people of different races (even metatypes when you consider SR) differently than others, but there are places and times where that's perfectly fine. People get funny ideas about how to handle those different from themselves.

If you don't have a frame of reference for what someone is going to loose, you're less likely to think it inhumane. Virtually everyone can understand what it would be like to loose a limb or to become less intelligent... only .1% of the population can comprehend the loss of magical power.

Would a kingdom of blind men who had never been anything other than blind think it inhumane to make a sighted person blind? They don't understand what "sight" is, so to them, it's no different than having a baby's vestigal tail removed.

I could see things like this happening immediately post-Awakening or post-Goblinization. By the time the '40s roll around, though, it should be a thing of the past.

~J

While I'll agree that it's probably less common in the '60s than shortly after the Awakening, I'd say it's still on the books as a possible sentance. Quite probably akin to the way the death penalty is handled now.

And really, if you're talking about magically aggravated homicide by a person that the corps can't use (or refuses to be used), what other real options are there? I suppose you could implant a chipjack and given them a personafix as an effective deterent against reincarceration.

Again, while everyone might know what a mage can do, or even have some idea of what being a mage is like, does that make them sympathetic or even make them understand what it means to loose that?

I get the feeling that a mage who couldn't do magic anymore would get precious little sympathy from those who have never and will never be able to do magic.

Ok, joke time:

. <- This is your @$$hole.
O <- This is your @$$hole in prison.


But, seriously how about building mage-only prison something like 10-20 meters underground, as it is very hard to go through the Earth in astral form. Then just put a few wards in the elevator shaft to stop anyone going through there. No need for that Awakened ivy or FAB or something very expensive like that.

As for using simsense loops or anything that deprives senses, that's a very good way to make someone completely insane. And after that insane guy get freed, he's probably going to some crowded place and start casting Extented-Area Fireballs in the crowd. Or do something like that.

Using drones and such to take care of the inmates would be rather good way, as highly technological things are really hard affect with magic.