Foci are useful tools, but they’re also limited to being usable by just a single Awakened character. As of SR4 Artifacts Unbound, p. 7, we actually get a bit of discussion about both the discovery of such Fourth World items, and also how they compare against the more common foci of the Sixth World. Their appearance in this book officially establishes both the functionality and presence of “always on” magical items in the Sixth World.

So how do we make more of them?

“Always On” magical items can (at least some of them) be used by anyone, even mundanes. This could really change the world, but hasn’t been explored very much in canon. Nonetheless, I think the potential of such items should be explored further. Now, in some cases, technology might be the easier and cheaper route to go. For instance, if you wanted a hovering airship, then a helium-filled blimp or zeppelin would probably be much simpler, but if you decided you really wanted some sort of hovering skyship or sky platform, how would you create it? We know it can be done – the Fourth World artifacts prove it.

Consulting the Earthdawn book Magic: A Manual of Mystic Secrets, the primary ingredient for such items seems to be “kernels” of True Elements. Well, as of SR4 Parageology, those have been discovered in the Sixth World as well; we might surmise that a “kernel” is perhaps equivalent to a “Unit” (10 grams) that quantities of Orichalcum are measured by.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the spells and number of Units of True Elements that would be required to construct new “always on” magical items? I’m still trying to decide on what seems like a reasonable approach for this.

It seems like a pointless waste of time in most cases; a display of ostentatious wealth perhaps.

The only practical use for "always on" magic items would be those which make the classical laws of thermodynamics their bitch; for instance, an object which always spins and never, ever stops. Attach copper wiring and you have an input-cost-free no-fuel power generator. That might or might not be particularly cost-effective on Earth depending on how much power one of them can generate, but on a spaceship it would be incalculably useful. You'd no longer be limited by solar panels.

That's exactly an excellent case in point. In many cases, yes, technology of the 2070's is the way to go, but unlimited free electricity via mana-to-electricity conversion? Huge game-changer. I addressed this earlier in another thread, when I argued that the Recharge spell was a huge game-changer just by itself.

Yes. It is from BOGOTA. Which makes it stupid and wrong.
Most of the stuff in that book should never have had time wasted on thinking them up in the first place.

And just to further drive home the point that stuff from earthdawn has no place in shadowrun:
The shadowrun Mana-Level is, at best, at about 5 to 10% of what it was in Earthdawn times.

[shrugs] Suit yourself. I grabbed the Recharge spell, at least, and I'm not giving it back.



I take it you have a specific book and page(s) reference for measuring the mana levels throughout the mana cycle? I seriously doubt it. But I've supplied a reference for existence of "always on" artifacts not only being present but working in the Sixth World. Proof of Concept has been demonstrated.

Earthdawn is set just after the scourge.
Which appears at the high point in the mana cycle.
A Mana-Cycle is about 4000 or so years long if i remember correctly.
Now remind me again for how long shadowrun had magic?
Around 40 years? Yeah . . And even if it came back with a stronger start than it had in the 4th age?
You are STILL only about 1% into the 4000 year cycle. Or 2% into the 2000 year UPGOING part.
After about 2000 years you hit peak mana.
And then it the scourge comes and basically devastates the world enough to make the mana levels start dropping again.

And yet I still see no hard numbers for quantifying the mana levels at any given point in the cycle (probably because I don't think they've ever been published). In any case, it's irrelevant, as Fourth World magical items demonstrably work in the Sixth World.

Yeah they work but you want to make one in the 6th world. Chances are the mana levels required for these things to work are less than the levels required to make them, which is where you run into issues. Otherwise the IEs would have been making some to help them in their mad power grabs, rather than just stealing ones that already exist from what ever dragon currently holds the thing.

Additionally, the 4th world items that work in the 6th world had to be used by the magically active, at least in the Artifact Rush adventures. I don't recall any that worked for mundanes. The Peri Reis Map, the Sextant of Worlds, the Phaistos Disc all needed a magically active character to activate their powers.

I played Earthdawn years ago and from what I remember, all the characters are some form of adept (magically active) or full on magician and so could use magic items that they wove threads to. Don't remember if there were items mundanes could use. In fact I don't actually recall if being mundane was even a thing. Everyone seemed to have some spark of magic they could use.

So I'm not sure the mana levels are high enough to manufacture the sort of items you want. I'm pretty sure the process has been lost or at least very closely guarded by characters who are effectively plot devices. The example of such a unique enchantment from Digital Grimoire suggests such things should also be plot devices and provides some numbers on how hard it would be as well as what the side effects are.

If you want to introduce such things to your game, just make them plot devices and don't let the players make them. Keep it as part of the mystery of the 6th world. If you've got random PCs churning out Troll Skyships from the 4th world I think magic in the game loses something. If such a thing is found by the PCs though, and they have to figure out how to make it work, well that's a whole adventure or 5 right there.

more like 5300-5500 Years

By Cyanon , the Magic Level is a Sinus Wave that reaches its Peak at the middle of the Time Period
at ca 2650-2750 Years.It has some Spikes (thats whey there's Spike Babies) but generally Magic is a Sinus Wave
Earthdawn plays definitely AFTER that Peak (but closer to the Top, already descending in the Magic) , Shadowrun is at the Beginning of the next Wave.
That IS Canon
That is why only 1 % are Awakened in SR and > 90 % Awakened in Earthdawn as Canon
So, to Topic
There were permanent Magic Items in SR4A ( Lifestyle 2073 Book, what it's called in English , Attitude ? ) like Fey Cloaks
but they're just started producing them, and they need Free Spirits for that.
Otoh I Like the Idea of mixing Technology with Magic (if done right ) so You got me hooked on levitating Ships like the ones in John Carter of Mars....

He who dances dressed only in a Fey Cloak (and nothing else)
Medicineman

One point in Janessa's favour is that the items are not being powered by the mage alone, but rather hooking into the inherent power of the True elements like ED did,

I mean who wouldn't want a Jaguar powered by an E(lemental)-8 engine under the hood tearing down the highway?

Do we really have the skill to make floating castles yet? Maybe, maybe not. Probably don't have enough True Air for it at the moment anyway.

It would be a pretty radical shift in the game setting though, so that it really would be MagicRun rather than classic SR at that point.

Not saying either is better or worse, but it would be a whole new world.

That said, tricky part will be to find the 'standard' unit of energy to do work. We have unit of orichaleum so we can measure the 'fuel' for the magic, now you just need to figure out how much oomph each unit can provide.

Like the Stay warm (can't recall the exact name) cloak in ED mentioned how there were kernels (note the plural) woven into the cloak to provide a constant heat to protect you from normal cold conditions, so the kernels seem to act as batteries, provding the constant trickle of mojo, but a single kernel does not seem to be able to do the job.
So it might be 2 or it might be 20, will have to go digging through the ED books to see if anyone wrote up item creation rules...

I can offer this graph as an illustration: http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/images/e/e2/..._Mananiveau.png It was made for the Shadowhelix article on the crossover: http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/Meta:Shadowr...hdawn-Crossover While its true that we don't actually have a measure of world mana content to compare the SR era to ED (therefore no y-axis), I have to point out unless the mana curve is very flat there should be a marked difference between these eras. As the graph shows SR is set almost as early as possible in the mana-positive regime of the cycle. Overpowered Shadowrun magic in the contex of the cycle has always been a criticism of the crossover and I think a good case can be made for it.

Update: By the way, if the mana cycle is described by a sine the percentage is fixed. The formula for the percentage of maximum mana level in a given year (up to reaching the maximum) should be:

sin[(current_year-2011)*(PI/5200)]*100

So for 2078 that's 4 percent.

Honestly, I would say it's not even worth it. Magical always-on/use activated items are the kind of things that players can use to break a setting over their knee, and rightfully so.

If such a thing exists, it should:
1: Be a relic from a previous age of mana, which may be useful but cannot be replicated or
2: Have been made by a Great Dragon or Immortal Elf who lived during the previous age of mana and knows ancient secrets, and
2a: have required an extraordinary effort on that GD or IE's part for trivial effect; input resources required to launch a manned mission to Uranus, to develop a perpetually-spinning toy top, for instance.

So, it should be a plot device, a McGuffin, something worth sending Shadowrunners to steal by all means, for research purposes, but either not intrinsically remotely worth the hassle of owning (the toy top, for which every Mega would cheerfully invest almost-limitless money in killing you to get,) or so powerful that it's the capstone of a story arc that the players can't keep (recovering the Sword Excalibur and using it to win some conflict with a foe that would otherwise have been far beyond the players, like fighting their way into the heart of a Renraku Red Zone and exfiltrating successfully, slaughtering some kind of Horror that came early, etc; but then Harlequin shows up to claim his rightful property with a 'thank you' for retrieving it and a nice cash bounty for the group in exchange.)

Since mana spikes are a thing, I'd say that graph would be far better with a bit of noise added: https://imgur.com/vClklBS

(Of course, simply using AWGN means you have a lot of "disawakenings" following the Awakening, where the mana cycle drops below the threashold once more, so maybe the deviations should only point upwards)

First step: Wait a few thousand years (in-game).
Second step: Play Equinox and make them there.

Interesting... Wondered what happened to that idea. Thanks for the Link...

Well, mana spikes are local right? The sine curve represents the global mana level. So I assume they literally wouldn't make a dent.

That’s a good point, but since I’d like to explore this concept, I may simply compensate by ruling the lower mana level at present means more Units of True Elements are required to manufacture them.



I may need to re-read the whole set of these adventures; it’s been a couple of years.



Actually, yes, there are such items. This is from Magic: A Manual of Mystic Secrets, p. 49:

“Magical items in Earthdawn fall into two broad categories: common items and thread items. Common items are those magical objects that can be used by anyone who knows how they work. Readily available throughout Barsaive, these items include day-to-day tools like magical cook pots, firestarters, light quartz and warm cloaks, as well as less common items such as crystal armor, fire cannons and airships.”

Thread items seem to be roughly analogous to Karma-bound items (I’m not an Earthdawn expert yet, and I’m more interested in the setting lore than mastering its RPG mechanics). At any rate, it appears that magical items usable by the non-magically inclined folks did exist – and were commonly used, even.



As I said above, I think I can compensate by just ruling that their manufacture is more expensive now. That said, they could still be incredibly useful, even if they were very pricey to make. Imagine a small town wanting to have an endless supply of electricity. The cost for the True Elements and the mage(s) to make it will be 1,000,000 ¥. That could take them a while to pay off if they took out a loan for that, but then they’d have guaranteed free power until the end of the Sixth World. Well, they’d still need to maintain the power lines.



I’m not wedded to maintaining the canon setting as is. I think slowly introducing these and seeing them start transforming the world would be an awesome idea. But I still need to work out needed magical supplies and costs.

Well, I'll be darned. I asked for hard #'s and someone actually gave some to me. Thanks much! This is going into my collection, along with some pages from that website; Google Translate seems to be doing a good enough job with them.

I took a look at this (without actually buying it), but it seems a bit more lots-of-action-all-the-time oriented than I'm fond of. Our group can actually go whole sessions without getting into a firefight, depending on what's going on. We tend to enforce rules like the cops actually responding to running gun battles and their forensic departments not being idiots when investigating crime scenes. Combat is deadly, so we don't go picking fights we don't need to. This game seems to be stressing more "high-octane action every minute" type of play. Which is fine, if you're into that.

That could work I suppose but I'd set the number to be based on the percentage of magic missing. Of course I'd also have to establish just how high the mana level needs to be to make these things to get that number.


Totally forgot about those. Probably because no one ever used them in game. Sure they exist, but if the majority of your game consists of exploring horror infested kaers, well you aren't likely to run into too many working magic cooking pots. Or at least never GM never had that happen.


Make it 100,000,000¥ or higher and you might be in the right price range. If it were only 1 million then every city, town, village and hamlet would do this. Free power after the initial start up fee? Yes please.

Indeed, which is why my work will be at least half pulling numbers out of thin air.



I’d rather do any other number of things in an ED campaign than just raid dungeons (we’re got D&D for that). Dealing with the various political situations sounds more interesting to me.



At that price, no one but a AAA could afford them, and I might as well not bother. If a small town could afford it, but it’s too pricey for most normal people to walk around with one, then that sounds about right to me. And yes, every town would want one – but that’s the point. I want this to spread, not just be confined to less than a dozen super-expensive items on the planet.

Hey - I love my Cooking pot... My Arcano-Archeologist actually found one in Shadowrun at the tail end of the Artifacts series. It was pretty awesome.

You might find Larry Niven's short story, "The Magic Goes Away" interesting.

Probably sorta debatably

We know that there was an unlikely number of spike babies born in Ireland before the Awakening, so there mostly likely was either one countrywide spike or multiple small spikes over the place. Then we have the GGD spike, which only affected the area where it was performed. And finally, Halley's Comet had global effects. Which of those, if any, is the typical case? No idea.

Similarly, how strong is the "normal" spike, does it bump the magic level by 50 years, 100 or 1000? And after the level has been bumped, does it go back to normal (without Harlequin intervening) after some time or does it stay on that level until the natural cycle catches up?

TL;DR: It's hard to write anything about mana spikes which violates established canon, because there is very little of it. I would however point out one thing, each World is really, really long. If people in the 4th World had been using magical cooking utensils since 500 years before the Scourge, that still means they only started making those ~1900 years after the 4th World began (one World = 5216 years, the Scourge lasted ~400 years, so the Horrors show up around 2,400 years after each Awakening). Let's say the mana level to use an item is sufficient 1000 years before it becomes sufficient to manufacture such an item, then you'd still have to wait till 900 years after the Awakening for your cooking pot. The 6th World hasn't even clocked in 90.

Except in Shadowrun they have room temperature superconductors and fusion reactors. As we all know hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe and therefore you have an almost endless supply of fuel.

Oh, and you also have to counter the level 12 mana void to make your generator work. Kind of a bummer about that.

Though I do agree with you about the Recharge spell. If you can fix a broken complex machine, and create lightning bolts then a recharge spell is simple.

You happen to have a reference for that? Because I was just looking for it the other day...

I can offer one: Shadows of Asia, p. 132

Hydrogen being abundant in no way, shape, or form obviates the tyranny of the rocket equation. A generator that just turns magic into electricity has a hydrogen fusion generator beat hands-down when you're out in the black and getting hydrogen is no simple task.




Compared to storing cryonic hydrogen over very long durations? That's easy.

True, but as ShadowDragon8685 points out, the benefits are enormous. The item's Force would need to be (whatever's required to supply the amount of electricity you need + 12), to maintain desired functionality in the mana void of outer space. Probably a bitch to pull off, but you could keep trading that thing between spaceships for generations, as newer models became available, and never have to worry about a power supply.

Of course that all assumes that mana levels peak and fall at the same rate through the solar system. Or that it even extends beyond Near Earth Orbit. We can presume it does but there isn't much to support that idea. Does the Mars base have magic? I know Ares conducts bug experiments on at least one of their orbital platforms but that is still in earth orbit.

Oh, I'll give you that. Any house ruling in either direction will be pretty much fanon (unless someone can provide a canon reference otherwise). The furthest out that magic has been done in canon (that I can recall) is on the moon (SR4 Street Magic, p. 120).

It doesn't. There is effectively no mana in space, it's classified as a mana void. That's why you can be seriously harmed if you go beyond the boundaries of the gaiasphere.

The thing is life attracts mana, no life usually no mana. So it may depend on whether Mars has some small amount of life on it, that creates a manasphere similar to that of Earth. Of course maybe planets always have a living aura independent of being actually inhabitated. There is one reference for the astral space of Mars as far as I remember that implies there is mana: State of the Art: 2063 p. 161:


(They probably wouldn't regard it a hot topic, if it was just another void.) But I don't think that idea has been expanded on since. Though unless it gets retconned artificial structures on Mars are canon, so maybe someone made it to Mars in prehistoric time, which might imply mana is available there.

I presume you mean "Eden". Ares isn't actually conducting experiments there. But uses it as an isolated staging ground for incursions into the metaplane Hive. (Short story in Street Magic.) And in Earth orbit doesn't say much, the question is how far out is the orbit? Eden is on Daedalus which in turn is located in L4 of the Earth-Moon system. As a comparison L4 has the same orbit as the moon, so well outside the gaiasphere. But Eden contains dense vegetation and that life creates a small manasphere which is why they can operate from there.

Well you can attempt to do magic in any environment even in the mana void of space. It's just likely to get you killed.

of course, any spaceship is likely to want to have some sort of garden area on it if it is large enough regardless of whether you want to get rid of a mana void, so for a large enough spaceship (that is, large enough to have garden areas impressive enough to reduce the impact of the mana void) the infinite electricity generator could potentially be useful.

WARNING: Do not predicate the efficiency of your magical perpetual spacecraft power generator on having a manasphere aboard the ship. If it can't function in a total mana void (IE, having a Force of 13+,) don't bet your ass on it, because you're one good planet plague away from freezing to death in the hulk of a powerless spaceship.

if all the plants die, so did your main source of food and air.

running out of power at that point is certainly not going to make things any better, but it is unlikely that you were going to survive the loss of your oxygen generation system regardless.

It's entirely possible to have a purely electric-powered air scrubber (thought the plants will certainly make things nicer). As for food, it depends on how far you're going and how many people are on-board; preserved rations might suffice just fine.

Well if you've run out of mana to power your spelljammer (cuz the plants died), uh I mean artifact powered space craft, all that is going to do is prolong the inevitable. No power means you will die.

No, the whole point is that if the item has Force 13+, then it still works in a full -12 mana void (that's with no plants anywhere in sight).

Yeah but how much power are you going to get out of something that is effectively rating 1? Or maybe I just don't think having a bunch of rating 13+ artifacts to be a very likely thing. Karma cost to create, resources needed, hell even the formula creation test are going to be just astronomical. If someone manages to make one how likely are they to just stick it on a space ship where it drops to rating 1? (or 2 or 3 but the thresholds to make those are craaaazy).

So you need a high-level initiate. It still could be done.

Or a working group of several mid-grade initiates (yay, Teamwork tests!).

Maybe if we bribe a certain IE to do it.

Maybe even name it the U.S.S. Harlequin?

Didn't Shadowrun 5 extend the background count scala down to -24?

Also just want to take note here, the thread has outgrown its own ambitions by discussing Earthdawn Spaceships in the Sixth World.

Fortunately for JanessaVR, she plays 4th ed where the background counts are still something a high level initiate can handle.

Yeah, never know where these things are going to go. But really once you start discussing what is effectively a perpetual motion machine, you may as well take it to its logical conclusion. Space travel.

If they've doubled that in 5th, well, I guess retreat into space Kaers is looking even better as a future option to hide from the Horrors (if you're using 5e).


Indeed. And there's always that might-have-been Mars colony from the Fourth Age rumor that pops up every now and again, mainly in the old books, where various people claim to have photos of old metahuman skeletons or rock carvings on Mars. Truthfully, I'm not really sure if there's any solid canon reference to using high-level magic to travel the solar system anywhere in the older SR or ED books. If anyone has a specific reference for such, please let me know.

Well, I'm not sure the relationship between Horrors and mana voids is as straight forward as one might think. But who knows.

It comes down to two things: (Once again could be retconned in the future.) There really are pyramids and a skeleton on Mars, Missions establishes that. And there is an obscure reference in Threats 2 p.43 about the origins of the possibly bogus book of Gaf:
The claims come from Mike Nickson, cult leader and wanted international artifact thief. So ...

Well, they retreat when the mana levels get too low to sustain them, so as long as space is a total mana void, it seems pretty darn straightforward to me.


Really? Do you remember which Missions specifically? I have all of the SR4 Missions from DriveThruRPG, but I've only looked through a few of them (I tend to concentrate more on usable sourcebooks for character and setting construction).

I would have to read up on this, but I think it was implied that foveae (also voids) are connected to corruption. There are first mentioned in the Aztlan sourcebook.

I mean the adventure set Missions: http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Source:Missions

I believe the speculation was that they were side effects of all the blood magic and sacrificing the psycho Azzies were doing to build Mr. Darke's bridge to the Horrors' deep metaplane. I don't believe the implication was that any Horrors were actually living in them.


I'll go have a look, thanks.

plants have a proven track record of scrubbing CO2 out of the air that goes back hundreds of millions of years. they are extremely reliable, and won't break down just because a part got worn out. they do not require that you carry extra parts, and they are also good at reclaiming other waste products. they additionally provide valuable resources including food, building materials, fabric, medicine, and even some recreational drugs.

if you're going to go someplace so far into deep space that a small-scale infinite power source is worth the investment described (and therefore are not within range to get any replacement parts for machines), then why would you use anything other than plants to keep your air supply clean?

(i can certainly understand wanting to have emergency backup systems to rapidly replenish air supplies, but for the long haul, it really just makes sense to use plants).