Alright, well, now for something completely different:

Perhaps Ares intentionally distributes the Predator through the gray markets at a reduced price as a means of advertising the reliability of its products to shadowrunners? Someone who buys an Ares Predator simply because its cheap might then be impressed by its design and performance, and go on to buy other Ares products (ones with higher SI's, like the HVAR, which also might be directly introduced by Ares into the black and gray markets) because, well, he knows they work. And hey, while they might end up equipping people who run against them, in the end isnt it better that they use Ares products while doing so?

As for the laser axe, I'm partial to the description that they have a reputation for sucking and black/gray distributors simply wouldnt be able to unload them if they charged full price. At retail stores, they have that gadget factor where its just kinda cool to have an axe with a laser on it, so they get a hefty pricetag for the rich weapons enthusiast target market. That applies less among shadowrunners.

But hey, if you're selling something that fell off the back of a truck, half price is still profit.

Blah. Blah. Blah.

Lindt is the only one who seems to have gotten in in all of this.

Street index reflects the price on the street.

Thus, the predator is ubiqitious. Its common. They get stolen more often than some thing esoteric. They get used in robberies more often than something esoteric. People need to dump them.

You don't know what history is on that street bought pistol, who's used it, where it came from, whatever. Its off the street.

As for the axe? Who knows, plenty of reasons have been suggested. I like the thought that no one wants them because they're junk, not being a walking rules lawyer, is the availability of the axe very high? If so, that perfectly validates the theory that the SI is low becuase its junk.

I think you're all missing the good doctor's point, which is, specifically, that if street index represents ubiquity and thus market saturation, why the fuck aren't they also easier to acquire?

Rarity isn't the sole determinant of price. Street Index and Availability aren't particularly sophisticated mechanics, but they're functional. Availability reflects the Supply side of the economic equation; Street Index reflects the Demand. Supply and Demand are, themselves, horrifically complicated factors that economists will debate over until the end of time, so I wouldn't expect a simple catchall explanation for how it works in a game.

SC's got it. Let's say a shopkeeper has two different types of guns in stock. The first, he has only one or two-- he has no trouble buying them or keeping them in stock, but he there's simply not a whole hell of a lot out there. The second kind, he's got crates and crates full of them, some collecting dust in the back room.

Both guns are equally availiable-- meaning, that it's equally likely that you can go into a gun store and find what you want. However, because there's so many of type X in stock, the price on them drops.

Let's try an example closer to home. We all shop for gaming books, yes? Let's say that you're going to buy gaming books, with money to spend but no particular idea as to what you want to buy. We'll start off at our supersize Borders and Nobles, to take a look. They actually don't have anything in stock today; it appears they've filled the racks with graphic novels. Maybe if you look around, you can find one or two old things, but nothing you want.

So, instead you have to go looking for a place that carries the books you want. Eventually, you end up at your friendly neighborhood gaming store. You see several super-shiny Shadowrun books lovingly placed on the front racks, and a ton of new D20 stuff sitting in the bargain bins. But they don't have the Shadowrun book that you want, so you go to a different store. Once again, you find several shiny Shadowrun books in the nice racks, and the exact same new D20 stuff in the bargain bins.

The Shadowrun books are an example of moderate availiability and low market saturation. It's not hard at all to get a hold of them. D20 products, OTOH, are an example of moderate availibility and low price-- they have supersaturated the market to the point where they've devalued themselves. They're not any more *availiable*-- you'd find them in as many places as you'd find Shadowrun books-- but the prices have dropped because they've got too much stock.

I can give an example even better than that. I can walk into my FLGS looking for games and find Shadowrun books in two places. The new stuff is all over in a section with the other books, and it'll cost me retail. That's because these are new books and haven't been collecting dust. There are people out there who want those books and haven't gotten them yet.

Now, in another part of the store are some more SR books. They're all 50% off the retail price because they're old and not in demand. Some of them aren't too terribly easy to find (I believe I saw a copy of R:AS there a while back, but forgot to pick it up), but they're still half price because they're "obsolete" older books.

It's amazing how your brilliance has changed on the subject, Cain. First, it was so obvious that Street Index represented quality and brand name, but now it's been your point the entire time that it had nothing to do with those things. Fascinating how that works.

In any case, I do like the idea of Supply vs. Demand, though it still doesn't seem to reflect that accurately. Unless there are just as many Ares Predators on the market as there are Browning Max-Powers, but because everyone has one (despite the relatively high Availability thereof), no one needs or wants to buy one to the point where the Predator costs half as much. Eh?

It also means that a Combat Axe, although readily available, is in such high demand that it has a Street Index of 2. Sames goes for the Toyota Elite and most other things in the game with a SI over 1. And, apparently, so many people with over a million nuyen to blow are trying to get a DocWagon variant of the Citymaster that it warrants a Street Index of 2.5.

Oh, and this demand is only the demand on the Street. If you buy it legally, Demand has no impact on the item.

Odd.

In any case, Availability (and the base cost) is both Supply and Demand. If the Supply was so much to warrant a low Availability score, then the Demand must obviously not be enough to lower the Supply.

Whoa, R:AS is an old book that's not easy to find anymore? Man, I'm too young to feel this old...

[QUOTE]Oh, and this demand is only the demand on the Street. If you buy it legally, Demand has no impact on the item.


The price is already adjusted for demand.

Thanos

Austere Emancipator: My point is its the standered in its class. You think Assult Rifle, you think Ak-47. IN Sr, you think Heavy Pistol, you think Ares Pred. Ill admit, it wont have the market saturation that an AK has now, but then again, Ares hasent be dumping them out by the millions for 60 years. When it comes down to the line, a low avil is how easy it is to find, a low SI is how easy it is to BUY. With a SI of .25 someone is just getting rid of them, but only to the people that know how to find them. Think RPG-7s. Millions and Millions, and if you could get one, getting 100 isnt that hard.
And yes, Thanos, is you buy it leagly, its the listed price, no change.

Personally, I never claimed it was a very GOOD mechanic... I said it was functional. If Street Index is lower than 1, it just means that the demand on the street is lower than the supply available on the black/grey market. The rationale behind it may be preposterous, but the mechanic itself is fine.

The bottom line is that the availability and street index values dont actually represent anything cold/hard/specific. Like nearly everything else in the game, they attempt to vaguely define in a simplistic manner a situation that is actually quite complex. When any value you encounter seems nonsensical, you can attempt to come up with an explanation that works for you, change the value, or decide not to care.

I generally prefer to try to come up with explanations for strange values rather than changing the value, but in some cases (such as the magical gear availabilities) I simply can not. Whatever. There exist untold multitudes of potential explanations for why something might have a Street Index of X or an availability of Y. Either come up with one that suits you or dont... but, please, dont insult people for their attempts at the same thing.

So in a very restricted sense, it's sort of like an AK-47 of heavy pistols. After all, it's not because the AK is thought of as a standard AR that its SI is so low -- indeed, I doubt it's thought of that way in many Western cultures, I'd even bet against it in the US. The reason the SI is low is that they've been dumped out by the millions for 57 years.

As for RPG-7s, I doubt you could easily get a hundred in the US. In the areas where they are used by militaries/militias, maybe. But in those parts, acquiring an RPG-7 generally requires nothing more than a stroll to the bazaar.

Regardless, I do think the AK-47 is/used to be a good example of a weapon with a very low SI while still having an Availability significantly higher than 2/12hrs, at least around here. But Predators aren't like AK-47s in the more important ways. I realize that SR writers might like to think they are, but it still is a ridiculous idea.

I haven't refused or forgotten. I'm of the mind that it's not a very good mechanic at all because it's somewhat redundant with two other stats already listed (Price and Availability). The middleman and getting-around-legal-constraints make a lot of sense to me, too, but only for a Street Index higher than 1. I've simply been waiting for someone to come up with a good, solid explanation for low Street Indexes, which I still haven't seen yet.

The market forces for the black market tend to be quantitatively different than those on the legal market, even though the concepts are the same. SI is a simplified attempt at reflecting the differences in one simple multiplication problem. More specific details are reflected to some extent in the negotiation phase or by spending more cred to lower availability.

SI is not itself any specific market force, but a measure of the differences between the two markets.

How's that as an explanation?

I should know better than to jump in on this one but.......

I think of street index as product desireability and perceived value. Not everything that performs the same function is equally desireable. While the Colt and the Predator have roughly the same stats and perform the same function they might be very different guns. I have never owned a pistol but I know for a fact the although many rifles fire the same calibur (I believe even the same round) they are put together is very different ways. This applies to all products.

Look at cars. Two cars in the same class like a Honda Accord and Toyota Camry depreciate at different rates. The same cars bought new off the lot three years later will cost less obviously but the percentage off MSRP will be different. Why? perceived value. Stolen cars however are a different story. Honda are much more expensive on the black market. Why? I don't have a clue.

As availability vs. commonality the two don't need to be related. After all, the availabilty is yours, not your fixers. While he can get either gun just as easily the perceived value of the predator is lower. Maybe its not sexy. Maybe people on the street don't want to pay full value for a gun to support those scum sucking goons at Ares. Maybe a gun thats a little bit lighter and a little more concealable is really worth twice as much. Who knows? But also remember that the street has regular customers. Joe shadowrunner might be able to get the fake sin but 99% of the sinless can't and those are the ones the market revolves around.

Or maybe, the game designers wanted to throw in a little market realism to keep gear acquisition from being a bunch a fixed number dice rolling.

Not being an econonmist, I suppose I'll probably be labelled as being stupider than a lobotomized toad on this, but...

Is it at all possible that SIs below 1 reflect an item that is taxed or has some other artificial bump up on the price? That's pretty much how it works with cigarettes, if I'm not mistaken. You get them cheaper through black market channels, because you're skipping state taxes. I can see the same being true with the Ares Predator. Since the most common legal means of getting one is through Weapons World, who gets them at basically manufacture price since they're owned by Ares, most of the markup is pure and simple profit. They're paying less for the Predator than the Browning. With the axe, I can see it's SI being lower than 1 because it got some horrible legal settlement against it because somebody bought it and caused millions of nuyen worth of damage to themselves doing something they were able to blame on the bum laser. If this got enacted as sort of a special tax on the Centurion, I can see the SI reflecting models that have been absconded with by shadowfolk before that tax could be enacted at a legal point of sale. Heck, I think I'd even support a tax on ALL combat axes, but that's just me. And I would use the revenue from it to pay for social services for children who've lost limbs.

Flea market is a good example. Even more so, if you have a border nearby. Some things that where new but cheaper than buying them officially. From what I learned by talking to a police officer some years back, they found the following stuff on the flea market during raids:

cigarets (only difference to original: No taxmark, Skimmed from the plant)

Bicycles (later turned out to be from a truckload full that had been stolen)

Car radios (still packaged and shrink-wrapped, skimmed from the plant)


All cheaper than legally bought since no one would buy them otherwise (You don't get a guarantee on flea market items definitely sold by dealers, not the original thiefs, so there is "overhead")

Another example:

There is no difference between a VW Golf (Rabbit in the US IIRC) build for the german market and one build for say the Netherlands. Both come from the same plant in Wolfsburg. Even with taxes and the overhead for re-import it was cheaper! for a german to acquire a so called EU re-import (a car from the Netherlands etc) than to buy one for the german market. If you bought directly, you even get better guarantee terms


And another one:

Modern Scoda, Seat and VW compact cars (Up to the Passat) are technically identical, using the same blueprints etc. This puts them into the "Pred and copies" class.

The cars sell for different prices (VW->Seat->Scoda)

Used car prices (even the theoretical "Schwacke" price for prime vehicles) vary astronomically, out of proportion to the original prices.

Why? Some stupid old-timer still believe that german cars are something special. Same with the Pred. Some people think it's special so it can be sold for a higher price.


Birdy

By the way, I didn't mean to sound sarcastic when I was asking if that was possible. I'm really not an economist (for those of you who didn't figure that out), and have absolutely no idea if what I suggested is possible or not. I just meant to ask if anyone else thought it made sense, or if I was a flaming idiot (I am, but is it creeping into Shadowrun now, too?)

Only on bulletin boards can you find conversations that last so long even when everyone is saying almost the same thing I'm not an economist either but I'll throw this in anyway:

Most of the disagreements here stem from people trying to apply the exact same market dynamics to both the Open and the Shadow economy, which doesn't work. Illegal commerce is by nature influenced by a lot of other, non-traditional market forces like the urgency of disposing of hot items, the cost of "sanitizing" stolen gear, etc.. This could be one of the reasons for SIs below 1, but nothing in the rules confirms that. So don't assume that two similar guns which are equally priced and available on the open market will remain so equal on the shadow market, but don't look to the rules for a clear explanation either.

Hey, I don't normally post on message boards, but I saw the opportunity to needlessly lengthen this thread by posting something that restated various points already mentioned. That and I'm tired and feeling like a jerk.

X is a fixer who deals in stolen guns and is representative of the overall black market.
Y is a shadowrunner who wishes to purchase a gun illegally for unstated reasons.

To purchase the gun Y calls his contact, X, and asks about two specific guns: the Ares Predator and the Browning Max-Power. X has each of these guns in stock and would be willing to sell them to Y, if Y sweet-talks him enough, sounds like a safe business partner, etc. (etiquette)

At this point, note that due to the availability rating of each gun being 3, Y must devote an equal amount of sweet-talk to X to be able to negotiate a price for either gun. The availability rating represents only the amount of work Y has to do to convince X to sell to him(or alternatively to go looking for the item), not the overall supply of the gun in the black market.

Currently X has 5 Browning Max-Powers and 25 Ares Predators in stock, all brand new off the back of a truck. X desires, for whatever reason, to sell them all in a month. He expects that he could sell exactly 5 of each gun every month at retail cost.

Since X can sell all of his BMP’s at retail, the street index is 1.0.

The monthly demand (5) is less than X’s supply (25) of the AP, but X estimates that he could sell all 25 AP’s in the next month if he priced them at half of retail cost. X is willing to sell at this price because he acquired the guns for 10% of retail cost. This places the street index at 0.5

End result:

Retail price / Black market price / SI

AP: 450 / 250 / 0.5

BMP: 450 / 450 / 1.0

The availability of the gun represents only how hard it is to find someone to sell to you. The street index represents supply and demand numbers in the black market. These numbers are not comparable to going to a retail store, because the retail market has a whole different set of costs, supply and demand.

So an axe can have a high availability TN; either few black market suppliers have them, or they are wary of selling to just anyone. If those same suppliers have an oversupply of that item they are likely to sell it at less than retail cost, assuming that they still make a profit.

Alternatively, a car could have a low availability TN and a high street index in a case where suppliers are readily available, but buyers who need to keep their names off of a registration (say if they plan to crash the car through a bank wall) are more plentiful than the supply of stolen cars.

Now insult me, that's always fun.

Thank you, jebo. Couldn't have put it better myself.

The "Overstocked Sale" is usually a lie.

And you KNOW how often you see those at the black market.

Street Index = Black Market.

Black Market != Thrift Stores.
Black Market != Sales.
Black Market != Stores Advertising on Television.

Thus...

Street Index != Thrift Stores.
Street Index != Sales.
Street Index != Stores Advertising on Television.

Street Index has nothing to do with any of the crap you keep spouting. It is ONLY the price difference when buying things illegally. I-L-L-E-G-A-L-L-Y. As in not buying it at a retail store. As in not buying it from a store advertising on television. As in not buying it through any legal channels whatsoever.

Considering you can't even get WHAT the Street Index applies to straight, it's no wonder you can't come up with a decent explanation for what it's supposed to represent.

You've gone from used items to cheap knock-offs to frelling color differences, and now you're claiming that it applies to legal purchases, too. Hell, you're saying that it *is* Availability even though Availability covers Availability (a novel concept, huh).

What's next? Concealability isn't really how well you can conceal an item, it's how much damage it is despite the Damage Code? That's the exact same idiocy you're constantly churning out in this thread.

Nope, of the ideas offered forth so far, supply is one that almost works. The only problem is that it would only apply to the black market since that's the only thing Street Index applies to. It's also never dynamic, it's as constant as Price and Availability are.

Also, if it truly represented supply, why doesn't it have any impact whatsoever on Availability or how many items are available? The only change is that it alters how much you pay, and only on the black market.

Do you ask a fire to stop burning, or a plague to stop spreading, or the rain to stop falling? Do you ask the earth to stop spinning, or the waters to stop flowing? Why, then, do you ask the Dumpshockers to stop incessantly recalling tiny errors?

~J

That you're right makes me want to cry.

You guys do realize, of course, that you're arguing that Ordinary Clothing is in shorter supply than Armored Jackets, right? And in Cain's case at least, this applies to both legal and illegal markets. Oh hell, that there's fewer articles of Ordinary Clothing on the market than REAL LEATHER Clothing.

Nope, they're arguing it's definitely that. At least when it suits their argument. At other times it's definitely that its a cheap knock-off (of which real leather is still cheaper than ordinary clothing). At other times its definitely that its used clothing (of which real leather is apparently donated to Good Will far more often than ordinary clothing is). At other times its definitely because they have a different color. At other times its definitely because {insert idiotic Cain remark here}. etc.

On all markets, of course.

Apparently, the one thing it definitely isn't in most cases, is the added cost for dealing with middlemen. Page [b]273[/i] -- despite making it clear that that is the primary reason for it -- should be completely dismissed because that does nothing to explain low Street Index values.

But of course I'm sure Cain'll waltz in and say "of course, good job BitBasher, I've been saying that all along!!!!!!" So thumbs up to that.