So I guess if someone wanted to buy a genuine Ares Predator (as opposed to all the similar models and knockoffs and so forth) you'd be forced to increase the Street Index?

A large supply in relation to demand doesn't necessarily make something easy to aquire. There's a certain base difficulty in aquiring any illegal item.

When you get right down to it, the whole concept of etiquette being used as the sole factor in determining whether or not you can get something is a little silly. Somehow you being extra nice means that your fixer happens to have a Barret laying around.

Somehow, I really don't get the impression you deal in the type of guns I was talking about.

Yes, but at the same time, throwing wads of extra cash his way should have a better effect. I know it does, but somehow it also makes it take longer... If you could up the SI to lower the availability (without lengthening the time) or lower the time it'd make more sense.

On one hand, that would be a reflection of their actual costs as well, apparently due to quality and thus rarity. If legal, those differences in costs would be similar. On the other hand, if they're just as readily availble then they're not in shorter supply by definition. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

That's your take. It is not what the rules say or even imply. As previously mentioned, the rules assume it deals more with how hard it is to get it on the streets and how many middlemen it has to go through to get there. It has nothing to do with quality, namebrands, used status, or any of the other things you keep trying to say it does.

No, you didn't. And while I may attack what a person says, I'm not the pathetic loser who goes around saying "Duhhhhh! You typed a 1 instead of a 2! You're stoopit! Duh huh huh! It's time t'go beat off now! Wooo!!"

Regardless, the point you can't seem to get into your head is that there's no difference between a legal purchase and a black market purhcase except the cost. None. Zip. Zilch. Nadda. You can buy your precious used Ares Predator knock-off pistol at a pawn shop through legal channels and you can buy a brand-spanking-new never-been-fired straight-from-the-factory brand-name Ares Predator from your fixer, and the latter one is *still* half the price. And you know why? Because that's the only difference between the two. One you bought legally, one you bought illegally. In all other ways they're identical.

Street Index does not determine quality. Street Index does not determine brand name. Street Index does not determine Availability. Street Index does not do any of the things you keep attributing to it, and the rules certainly do not say they do despite your completely unfounded claims to the contrary. The only reference the rules make to Street Index is that it's a measure of the difficulties inherent to buying it on the black market, with numerous middlemen being the typical cause.

And it's because of that that I find it hard to believe that many Street Indexes would be below 1. I can't imagine how buying a brand-new never-been-used brand-name top-of-the-line gun on the streets, getting around the paperwork, and having the weapon pass through so many different hands before it hits yours would make it 50% cheaper than buying the exact same one from a straight-from-the-factory-to-our-shelves gun store when you have all the proper paperwork and permits available.

And again, because you seem to have trouble with this concept, Street Index does not determine if a weapon is used, old, or a cheap knock-off. No matter how many times you want to say the contrary, it simply isn't. You may want to rationalize it to yourself that way, but that doesn't change a single thing about it.

Uh oh! There's at least one typo in that last post. Quick, get the Vaseline out and start typing your response, Cain!

Let's see if I can try to reconcile a few views without touching the personal animosities. Apologies for being the intrusive, smartass newbie with a long post - I've been out of my home country and out of SR for a couple of years, but coming back to both next month. And since I happen to be a diplomat working in international trade and economics, and it's a slow afternoon...

First off - Misfit Toy, I don't think anybody is disputing that the rules on SI (and Availability, for that matter) are at best incomplete. The views expressed here can only be personal interpretations aimed at rationalizing a weakness in the books, unless one of us happens to be sleeping with one of the game designers

So, if we don't want to review gear stats throughout the source books, how do we explain the wide variations in SI (and availability) between near-similar items ? We can pick one or more reasons:

1) Product life cycle: While having the Predator represent a wide number of similar weapons can lower Availability (through the sheer volume of similar items up for sale), it doesn't explain SI very well. What does affect SI is the product's life cycle (cf. the Predator 2 and 3 example). In many industries, old product versions are not offered at a lower price to maximize the sales of the "new and improved" item -this is especially true when newer versions offer only minimal improvements. So that Predator 1 might only be cheaper through your fixer because while everyone (legit and not) is buying up version 2, Ares isn't lowering the version 1 price to avoid "sales cannibalization". Indeed, Ares might see the grey and black markets as the most profitable way of clearing out version 1 without hurting version 2 sales.

2) Supply and Demand: Ironically, this produces two contradictory effects which can cancel each other out (but not always). First, a very popular product will not tend to have a SI below 1, by virtue of limited stocks (cf. the Barrett rifle mentioned earlier). But that tends to be an early phenomenon. The second effect occurs afterwards: copycat items start arriving, usually at a lower price. This tends to lower the price of the original item - sometimes a lot, sometimes not much, depending on factors like proprietary technology and the quality / reputation of the original. But this factor has a lesser effect on SI as the others.

3) Shadow Production: A very popular but well-controlled item might stimulate the development of illegal production. This is not an automatic consequence of point 2 above, BTW, since some products are licensed legally but are very hard to copy, while other products are the opposite. The Ares Predator you get from your fixer might be a re-engineered Phillipino copy, without the legal process or physical tracing measures incorporated by Ares and other "public" manufacturers. That would give it both the same game stats as the "official " Predator, and a reduced price to boot, but only on the black market since it comes from some hidden jungle factory and the sales revenue goes straight to the Huk Rebels' war chest (litterally). The Browning would not enjoy a similar low SI because it may not be the object of similar production (maybe the design isn't as easy to re-develop as the Predator's ?).

4) Shadow trends & popularity: It makes sense that legitimate buyers don't have the same shopping habits than black market customers. As was mentioned earlier for the laser axe, a SI might be below 1 because runners don't trust a particular item or the excessive number of low-quality versions flooding the black market: that Predator is so popular that runners aren't sure of what they're going to get, and only cheap copies are available on the street as opposed to the certainty of getting a brand-name item at the local gun store.

These are just a few of the many reasons why similar items might have not only a different SI, but one that is below 1. I could elaborate until everyone's computer screen bled, but I don't want to be barred from this forum on my very first post !

You know, in regards to street index, you can look upon the fact that things can be cheaper aboard.

I mean, I can get a 50 gram packet of golden virginia from my local shop for £9.50 (roughly), that's the "legal" price. However, if I get someone to bring me the same 50 gram packet from overseas, the price works out to about £3.50 a packet.

Now, it's brand new, packaged, exactly the same, everything is the same, yet it's a HELL of a lot cheaper (thank God).

In regards to the laser axe.. uhm... perhaps they THOUGHT they'd sell really good, so the happy-happy workers in Korea or something made a serious boat load of them, then everyone realised they were actually crap and they couldn't shift the things, so they're selling them cheaper to "other" sources, who then smuggle them into Seattle and sell them off on the streets for a little profit. Dunno, weird street index for that one.




- Baatorian

The laser goofyass axe's numbers make perfect sense. They have nothing to do with all of the axes on the street actually being cheap knockoffs of the expensive Ares ones that you have to buy legally in the store (and I have no idea where you came up with that idea, or what makes you think it's a rational explanation), and not much to do with the number of middlemen the weapon went through (while that is a factor, it's not the only one, and the referenced rules passage does not, in fact, say that it is... and uses too many "usually"s and "tends" to support a hardline interpretation of even what it does say). It's just straightforward supply and demand.

They're expensive to buy legally, because they're complex and technically advanced devices that're expensive to manufacture, and because they're illegal to possess normally (no permits, even), so there's undoubtedly lots of red tape that has to be expensively cut through to sell them legally, and Ares wants to recover those expenses and make at least a small profit selling them.

The Availability is moderately high, because there aren't many of them floating around out there, because they suck and no one buys them, which keeps both the number manufactured in the first place and the number of those that find their way onto the street low, so it's difficult to find someone who has one to sell at all.

But the SI is low, because they suck and no one wants to buy them, so if you do find a shadow dealer who has one, he's probably going to be quite willing to let it go cheap just to get rid of it, because he doesn't know when he'll find someone else who's willing to buy it for any price. He doesn't have to worry about recovering manufacturing and similar costs, because he probably didn't buy it for full legal price to begin with... it may have been smuggled in and bypassed the bureaucracy, or some Ares employee who doesn't care if Ares makes a profit on it as long as he gets his personal palm greased might have knocked it off the back of a truck, or it might have been stolen, or looted from someone who got themselves dead trying to fight with the ridiculous thing, or whatever. In any case, his investment in it is lower than a legal supplier's, so he can charge less and still be making a profit... and will, because if he charges too much, he won't be making a profit because he won't be making a sale.

Isn't street index a percent of markup?
Item-x is 100:nuyen: and has an SI of 1 would cost 100 at char-gen but 200 (before negotiation) afterwards.

that equation would be price*(SI+1)=Cost before negotiation

therefore an SI of .5 at a base price of 100 would cost 150 after SI markup

Nope, SI is a straight multiplier to the base item cost. Items with a SI of 1.0 cost the same on the street as they do in the stores.

That has to be the silliest thing I ever heard.

Read the rules for Street Index. They make it clear that the only difference is the cost, and then list the usual reason for that (ie, middlemen). It's all the other things brought up in this thread that's the "personal house interpretation." By canon, there is no difference whatsoever between them. If you buy an item legally and then turn around and sell it on the streets, whoever buys it gets stuck with the Street Index even though there has been no change whatsoever in the product.

Quality, brand-name, etc. has no bearing on that. Nothing in canon says otherwise that I'm aware of. You can legally buy an Ares Predator that's "used" or a "cheap knock-off" from a pawn shop or buy a brand-new brand-name Ares Predator from a respectable store, and the price would be identical. Just like the price would be identical if you bought an Ares Predator on the streets from the Crime Mall or bribed some worker at an Ares factory to turn his head while you swiped one, and the price would still have the same cost... just at a 0.5 mark-up of the legal price because you bought it illegally instead.

Because that's... the... only... difference.

The point you guys keep missing is that, at no time, is the quality of the item altered by buying it on the streets vs. buying it legally. There is nothing in the rules that says or even suggests that. Why you keep harping on me for actually pointing to the only relevant rules on the subject while simultaneously dismissing that simple fact is beyond me.

Perhaps because with a few exceptions (cyberware, vehicles apparently), there are no rules for gear quality in canon?

Which is my point.

There are no differences in quality, because it doesn't matter. And Street Index has no bearing on that. Because it is a non-issue. You get the same quality (however you want to describe it) whether you buy it legally or illegally. Buying a used knock-off from a legal source vs. a street resource is still modified by the exact same Street Index as buying a brand new brand name item from a legal source vs. a street resource.

Buying something on the streets does not make it used, cheap, or a knock-off. You might describe it that way for fun, but that's all it is. It's not what Street Index represents. You can describe that brand-new gun you just bought as being a used, cheap, knock-off... but that doesn't mean you get a discount on it.

If you were arguing only against the quality argument, then my post was poorly timed. I have difficulty finding reason in that argument as well, but I am curious if its backers can make a more convincing point.

Not that I'm a huge fan of this argument, but should point out that all the prices in canon (sans SI) are for new, name-brand, retail items. You can say that the SI issue applies equally to knock-off used crap bought legally and good stuff bought legally equally, but I don't know of any canon sources for buying said knock-off used crap at retail (i.e. SI=1) prices.

You know what? Nevermind.

What exactly is your argument?

That Street Index indicates quality? It doesn't. Unless you're saying that a sports car you buy from a corrupt car salesman is twice the quality of the exact same sports car (and I do mean the exact same one, not one like it) you buy from the exact same salesman's lot but instead go through all the paperwork.

That Street Index indicates that you're buying a cheap knock-off? It doesn't. Unless you're telling me the only place you can get an Aries Preditor is on the streets without a license or permit.

So what's the argument here? By the rules (and I noticed upon looking back up that Cain conveniently changed his post where he said the rules said that Street Index was an indication of quality and brand name), the only thing Street Index changes about an item is its cost. There is no change in quality, brand name, color, tint, or anything else. You can get crappy equipment from a legal source and Grade A equipment from a less-than-legal source. Street Index is not an indicator of those things; GM fiat is.

BTW:

That's some pretty confusing stuff right there.

Did you take into account:

- End user prices are inflated compared to what you pay "at factory" (IRL I buy a suit for 100€ at a high-quality clothing plant. That same suit then gets a label sewn in and ends in an expensive shop for 450€)

- Thieves don't sell their stuff for end-user prices. Even more so if they steal in bulk

- Dealers lack a good many expenses that regular shops have (taxes, health care, shop rent, guarantee/insurance)



Birdy

Children... settle down. Someone way back on the first page said that the Pred. isnt the Ak-47 of handguns. I completly disagree. Its far and away the AK-47 of heavy pistols. Its the Colt 1911 of today, everyone who has a handgun has one of those. Having a street index of .5 shows that. "Oh, Mr Man, why is it cheeper to by it from a dealer then Ares Arms 'World O Guns'?" Because every dead fool and their pet poodle has one. If you walked into a small gun shop, and asked to buy 3 Colt model 1911s, odds are you would still have a choice of finishes, grips, and acc. mounts. Hell they just want to get rid of them. If you buy it used, its going to be cheeper, but Ares 'World O' Guns' dosent sell used guns, now do they. Not when they can get you to buy a new one at 2x the price. But they will toss in a 3 year money back gurantee, a walnut box, and a cleaning kit, along with the owners manual. Remember however, that it might be tough to get (fictional example, an AK-2058), it still might be cheep. "But Mr. Man, how does THAT work?" Lets say your local grey market pawn shop has 2 sitting in the back, that because its aginst the law to sell assult weapons with out the right permits, he dosent advertise. But you walk in looking for something that has a little extra bang. You spend 5 min haggeling over the cost of a Enfield .12 guage (and make your search check aginst its avil of 8, because its new) the broker mentions he might have something better, and since they are only taking up space, he could let it for for say, 75% of the new ones at 'Kalinichoffs Gun O Rama'.
That being said, that stupid axe is close to the same. Mabey because it dosent have any compitition?

That's the thing though. Every time you guys mention a flooded market, that would be reflected in Availability -- and by the rules, Availability works with both legal and illegal purchases and it is a direct reflection of how easy it is to get one.

If everyone and their uncle had an Ares Predator, the Availability would be way lower (if not "Always") in addition to a low Street Index. But that's simply not the case. It has the exact same Availability as SI 1 or higher pistols meaning that there's approximately the same number of Ares Predators on the market (whichever market that may be) as there are Browning Max-Powers, Remington Roomsweepers, and Ruger Super Warhawks.

Street Index is not Availability anymore than it's a degree of quality or brand name.