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Misfit Toy
Hmm. I was doing some idle surfing and stumbled upon a definition of "Cyberpunk" according to the WordIQ website. I was actually surprised that there was a reference to Shadowrun in it, and when I actually read it, I was doubly surprised. Here's the relevant quotation...

QUOTE
At least two role-playing games called Cyberpunk exist: Cyberpunk 2020, by R. Talsorian Games, and GURPS Cyberpunk, published by Steve Jackson Games as a module of the GURPS family of role-playing games. Cyberpunk 2020 was designed with the settings of William Gibson's writings in mind, and to some extent with his approval, unlike the perhaps more underhanded approach taken by FASA in producing the Shadowrun game (see below).

And here's the part it referenced.

QUOTE
Role-playing games have also produced one of the more unique takes on the genre in the form of the game series Shadowrun in 1989. Here, the setting is still that of the dystopic near future presented in other cyberpunk works, however it also incorporates heavy elements of fantasy literature and games, such as magic, spirits, elves, and dragons. Shadowrun's cyberpunk facets were modeled in large part on the writings of William Gibson, and the game's publishers, FASA Corporation, have been accused by many as having directly ripped off Gibson's work without even a statement of influence. Gibson, meanwhile, has been reported to be less than impressed with the inclusion of elements of high fantasy within clearly derivative setting elements and storytelling techniques that he had pioneered. Nevertheless, Shadowrun has introduced many to the genre of cyberpunk, and still remains popular among gamers.

Now, has Gibson's constant whining about how FASA stole "his" ideas really reached the point where it's being added to online encyclopedias? Am I the only one who finds that incredibly sad, not only because his whining about it has reached that level, but because online encyclopedias go around slandering (defunct) gaming companies?
Beast of Revolutions
A lot of the terms used in Shadowrun are indeed direct ripoffs of Gibson. SINs, for instance, have the same name in Gibons book Count Zero.
Tziluthi
Also, "street samurai" and "razorboys/girls" were used as terms in Neuromancer.
Arethusa
1. It's only slander if it's spoken. In print, it's libel.
2. It's only libel if it's not true.
Misfit Toy
missing the point, phrase. see the first two responses.
TinkerGnome
Their wording could certainly use some work, reguardless of facts.
Panzergeist
Actually, I think slander is still the verb used if it's printed.
BGMFH
Correct, you do not "libel" someone, you commit an act of Libel against them. It is a noun, not a verb. Thank you. Back to something that matters now. Flame War is Over, nothing to see.
Plastic Rat
Pity Tolkien isn't around to bitch about having his ideas BLATANTLY ripped off and tossed in with Cyberpunk. We'd have a grand old yelling match then.

Seriously, IMHO Shadowrun is IT's OWN genre. It has a heavy Mayan influence that I don't think anyone else has touched on yet. Also, yes, I think the wording could definitely use some adjustment, specially since I doubt the writer knows too much about the origins of Shadowrun and it's basic premise.

People tend to see the Fantasy/Punk mix and get blinded by that. I know I did when I first saw SR too.
MozartSmozart
What are you implying by putting "his" in quotation marks? William Gibson did INVENT the Cyberpunk genre, and Shadowrun has many very clear and obvious names and ideas taken from his works. And it's not like Gibson is out there actively deriding Shadowrun at every turn either. However, he has a right to his opinion, especially when the game is as heavily based on his works as it is.

And I agree with Arethusa, it's only slander/libel if it isn't true. If it is true, it's called reporting.
otomik
people gibson stole from:
thomas pynchon
raymond chandler

people FASA stole from other than gibson/tolkien
Robocop people (Cobra Assault Cannon, privately owned police, cyberzombies)
Charles De Lint's novel "Svaha" (japanese imperialism in cali, native american nations)
Adam
QUOTE (MozartSmozart)
What are you implying by putting "his" in quotation marks? William Gibson did INVENT the Cyberpunk genre, and Shadowrun has many very clear and obvious names and ideas taken from his works.

Because Gibson, obviously, had no influences - literary or otherwise - that helped shape his stories into what they are. Invent? Hardly. Produce some of the most influential works for? Absolutely.
BitBasher
QUOTE
Robocop people (Cobra Assault Cannon, privately owned police, cyberzombies)
Bold mine

Nitpcik, Robocop was NOT a cyberzombie as it's presented in SR, he just has very, very low essence. Incidentally I read the book Robocop and it went into more detail about what they did to him.

(For the curious, that wasn't really his jaw, it was there to make him look more human, and to be a tribute to the human that was inside. The jaw was armored to all hell, he could get shot in the face and still be fine.)
MozartSmozart
I didn't say that William Gibson had no influences, or even that Shadowrun shouldn't have used what it did. I'm merely pointing out that Gibsons work DID influence Shadowrun, and I know it wasn't the sole influence, but it was rather large one.
Synner
Actually what you said was:
QUOTE (Mozartsmozart)
(...)William Gibson did INVENT the Cyberpunk genre(...)

Which isn't entirely true. The writings and shorts by Philip K. Dick, Bruce Bethke and Bruce Sterling all predate Gibson's Neuromancer, though that (and the Mirrorshades anthology) is often considered the seminal work in the genre. In fact the term "Cyberpunk" was coined by Bethke and not Gibson, so you could argue that was the biggest rip-off came from there. Which is also nonsense because the extrapolating and fusing emerging elements of mainstream culture is what cyberpunk was all about and Gibson does it just like everyone else.

For the record Gibson only ever spoke of Shadowrun twice to my recollection and in both cases it was in response to specific questions. What he was pissed at was the introduction of "pure" fantasy elements (Tolkien-style) which he believed were out of place in the genre and not in keeping with cyberpunk's hard sci-fi roots. Since the fusion of those elements with traditional cyberpunk is one of the main things drawing us fans to Shadowrun, IMHO it pretty much makes Mr. Gibson's perspective irrelevant.
Domino
grumble grumble grumble
Abstruse
I just don't like Gibson's writing style. It always seemed to me like "This happened. Three sentences about how it happened. New paragraph, this happened. Three more sentences about how that happened." I forced myself through Neuromancer, but I doubt I'll read anything else he's written.

You know, it's sad that cyberpunk for the most part is dead in fiction when the real world is getting so close to it. We're advancing in leaps and bounds with cybernetic implants and the questions the genre brought up are becoming more and more relevent (humanity vs. machine, etc), governments are using technology and twisting laws to become more intrusive in our lives, etc. Seriously, name me one decent real cyberpunk novel that's come out in the past 5 years. I can't think of any personally.

The Abstruse One
Arethusa
If you want to find good cyberpunk done contemporarily, you'll have to look to anime. Ghost in the Shell set a standard that Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex has surpassed in quite simply astounding ways, and Innocence looks pretty good too.

In terms of literature, I've seen nothing recently, I'll admit, unless you (and a few people seem to) count Pattern Recognition. I'll admit I haven't read it, but I did read through the first few chapters in the bookstore and liked what I saw.
Zazen
QUOTE (otomik)
people gibson stole from:
thomas pynchon
raymond chandler

What'd he steal from Raymond Chandler?
otomik
Ghost in the Shell had me wanting to do a full body cyborg campaign of CP2020 for the longest time, it would be tough working on that high a scale but that post-human angst thing is pretty damn cool.

i'm reading Pattern Recognition and i like it thus far, i just hope he doesn't do one of his standard plots where all these characters slowly get together in the end and then there's a big explosion or something, it's getting old.
otomik
QUOTE (Zazen @ Jul 3 2004, 01:23 PM)
QUOTE (otomik @ Jul 3 2004, 01:27 AM)
people gibson stole from:
thomas pynchon
raymond chandler

What'd he steal from Raymond Chandler?

a lot stylistically but that's a matter of opinion. specifics are easier to agree on like the slow acting poison from The Big Sleep was turned into the "incentive" slow acting toxin used by Case's employeer in Neuromancer. gibson borrows from chandler as much as paul auster does but there's not as much cross-genre criticism (and it's online forums like these that make such over-specialization possible).
Zazen
I thought the poison in the Big Sleep was just poison. It killed him in a couple minutes and wasn't really special.

Anyway, I'll be calling Raymond Chandler the father of cyberpunk now. He's certainly a whole lot more interesting than Gibson smile.gif
Backgammon
I read Pattern Recognition a few weeks after it came out. It has nothing to do with cyberpunk. Nothing. I still liked it very much, and Gibson remains a talented man, but it's not cyberpunk in any way.

I do think that aside for a few animes and SR, cyberpunk is a more or less dead genre as far as mainstream goes. Perdido Street Station is steampunk, and that's as close as it gets. The Carlucci stories are the most recent cyberpunk litterature that I've found. But IMO, the author just isn't that good, and I found it pretty weak. Except for Destroying Angel. That was kind of cool.
MozartSmozart
QUOTE
For the record Gibson only ever spoke of Shadowrun twice to my recollection and in both cases it was in response to specific questions.

Which was my point.

And despite how many people contributed to the creation of the genre, Gibson is still considered (by most) to be the "Father of Cyberpunk".
Frag-o Delux
Who is Gibson?
Misfit Toy
QUOTE
For the record Gibson only ever spoke of Shadowrun twice to my recollection and in both cases it was in response to specific questions.

And yet it was still enough for him to pout about not being asked or having any input on the creation of Shadowrun, all of which lead to the original entry on the subject. Nevermind all the other cyberpunk references that, doubtlessly, didn't have any of his input either. Only Shadowrun was the dastardly, underhanded villain who "stole" from his glorious works.
shadd4d
Not to mention still going strong. Cyberpunk is more or less a semi-dead doornail, while GURPS is...not really my cup of tea.

Don
hobgoblin
the breakdown of social order died in the mainstream with the passing from the 80's to the 90's for some reason. now it can only go up up up or so it seems. this removes a vital element that made cyberpunk unique, the need for the corps to take control of areas to protect theyre workers and ability to earn money while the world collapses around them...
MozartSmozart
QUOTE
And yet it was still enough for him to pout about not being asked or having any input on the creation of Shadowrun, all of which lead to the original entry on the subject. Nevermind all the other cyberpunk references that, doubtlessly, didn't have any of his input either. Only Shadowrun was the dastardly, underhanded villain who "stole" from his glorious works.


The point IS that Gibson doesn't make a big deal out of Shadowrun. It's not like he e-mailed the encyclopedia and forced them to add the entry.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jul 3 2004, 06:07 PM)
the breakdown of social order died in the mainstream with the passing from the 80's to the 90's for some reason. now it can only go up up up or so it seems. this removes a vital element that made cyberpunk unique, the need for the corps to take control of areas to protect theyre workers and ability to earn money while the world collapses around them...

Indeed. And ever since 9/11, the Patriot Act, the war with Iraq, the economic recession, RIAA finally making good on its newfound ability with the DMCA to sue end-users for messing with their own property, etc, people have been getting into escapism and superheroes again; just look at how well Spiderman 2's doing! Noone wants to dwell on imagined horrors in the future; most of us have enough worries in the here and now. smile.gif Wait anither five or ten years for things to settle down a bit, and we'll be back to the kind of forward-thinking that leads to stuff like cyberpunk again. Heh, guess that means we're all ahead of our time. smile.gif

(Edit:) Now that I think about it, we're getting cloer and closer to that dystopia every day, aren't we? Of course, none of the big world-shattering events in SR can really happen until and unless UGE and the Awakening start is all going first, so I suppose for now we're safe smile.gif
Misfit Toy
QUOTE (MozartSmozart)
The point IS that Gibson doesn't make a big deal out of Shadowrun.

As compared to other games that he's bitched and moaned about? Or even talked about?

QUOTE
It's not like he e-mailed the encyclopedia and forced them to add the entry.

Perhaps not, but it's his two venomous comments on the subject that has either directly or indirectly lead to the entry. All because he's sour due to some ill-perceived insult that someone had the audacity to take some of his equally-stolen ideas and merge them into a new genre that, if anything, is a testimony to his contrabutions to cyberpunk, not an insult.

Those bastards!
Domino
It is like the guy who invented the guitar, based off of other stringed instruments, bitching about electric guitars.
otomik
QUOTE
I thought the poison in the Big Sleep was just poison. It killed him in a couple minutes and wasn't really special.
yeah you're right, i confused it with D.O.A. [1950].

one of the cool things that CP2020 did was include a bibliography of sorts listing a lot of good cyberpunk movies and novels, that really got me into cyberpunk back in 8th grade or so. i'm not sure if shadowrun copies things more than other RPGs or if it just seems like that since i'm so familiar with it and cyberpunk literature. bibliographies often prevent people from getting pissed, maybe some acknowledgement would have helped.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (shadd4d)
Not to mention still going strong. Cyberpunk is more or less a semi-dead doornail, while GURPS is...not really my cup of tea.

Don

Only because (in my experience) the players couldn't get past the "i've got a BFG" element.

Shame about the firestorm series. Stormfront was a good book, Shame that Firestorm didn't help with the above. I thought the NPC's were far cooler though.

Anyways i Digress.
The Grifter
Hmmmm...slow acting poison...didn't I see that in "Escape From LA"? And "Metal Gear Solid"?

"Fox Die! Otacon, noooooooooooo!"
MozartSmozart
Misfit Toy: The point is, he didn't actively bitch about the game. When he was asked his opinion on it he gave his opinion. He was asked because of the fact that it is based on his works. He didn't go out of his way to complain, leave the guy alone, he's entitled to disagree with you.
Misfit Toy
But I'm not allowed to disagree right back, eh? And no, no one asked him. It was a random rant. And despite what others say, everytime I read it I just see him pouting because no one at FASA contacted him to ask if he had any input on the game. His very first line after the subject makes that abundantly clear.
Fygg Nuuton
QUOTE (Misfit Toy @ Jul 5 2004, 11:32 AM)
But I'm not allowed to disagree right back, eh?

go write books that influence a game that has a message board dedicated to it, then you can complain nyahnyah.gif
Shev
I've read Neuromancer, and I was surprised by the amount of material that seemed to have been directly copied into Shadowrun. Besides what is mentioned above, I saw references to the matrix (like that, no capitalization) as a place where you can hack into corps by "punching deck". Money was measured in Nu Yen. And the AIs seemed to act a lot like the ones in SR, although is a little more debateable. Overall, I can understand why he might be a little peeved.

On the other hand, given the fact that he says (in the post linked by Misfit Toy): "When people are downloading your pirated texts for free, it means you're already pretty widely distributed. I view downloading as a sort of natural, organic tax on reputation." I think he should just buckle down, get used to the idea of cybered-up elves and consider this another part of that "organic tax". If he doesn't mind losing money on his books, I think he can deal with a few references in a role-playing game.
GunnerJ
QUOTE
I think he should just buckle down, get used to the idea of cybered-up elves and consider this another part of that "organic tax". If he doesn't mind losing money on his books, I think he can deal with a few references in a role-playing game.


Especially considering that said RPG is what got me interested in cyberpunk enough to buy and read Neuromancer. BTW, it was called "New Yen."
Reaper
QUOTE (Abstruse)
Seriously, name me one decent real cyberpunk novel that's come out in the past 5 years.

The Heretic, by Jason K. Chapman, copyright 2000. Just under the five year mark, and a decent novel, too.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
QUOTE (Misfit Toy @ Jul 5 2004, 11:32 AM)
But I'm not allowed to disagree right back, eh?

go write books that influence a game that has a message board dedicated to it, then you can complain nyahnyah.gif

Wow.
bitrunner
personally, i think Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson, was always a better book for refering people to that wanted to read cyberpunk...a decker that delivers pizza for the mafia...the only thing it's missing is a dragon!
hobgoblin
and thank god for that smile.gif
Bearclaw
As an old guy who grew up in the 80's, Gibson was a big smack in the face. Neuromancer was as stunningly different when it was new as Cryptonomicon was 10 years later. Give the guy some credit.
Yes, he ripped off many sources, he says as much, often. Which is why he doesn't legally go after people who are clearly ripping him off. Playing Shadowrun and disrespecting him is like listening to Metallica and disrespecting Black Sabbath. The newer would never have existed without the former.


PS, my vote for most accessible early cyberpunk is Bruce Sterling's Islands in the Net. How can you beat a book where the main character is a white guy who's been turned black by a new drug?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
go write books that influence a game that has a message board dedicated to it, then you can complain nyahnyah.gif

Go hold public office, and then you can vote.

~J
Misfit Toy
QUOTE (Bearclaw)
Playing Shadowrun and disrespecting him is like listening to Metallica and disrespecting Black Sabbath. The newer would never have existed without the former.

The point, however, is that Black Sabbath doesn't go around bad-mouthing Metallica, claiming they ripped them off, ruined their sound by introducing their own style into it, or whining because they weren't consulted with Metallica was still a garage band.
Fygg Nuuton
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton @ Jul 5 2004, 01:46 PM)
go write books that influence a game that has a message board dedicated to it, then you can complain nyahnyah.gif

Go hold public office, and then you can vote.

~J

I've never voted, granted i was too young till now...
MozartSmozart
My problem MisfitToy, is that you seem to take it as a deep personal insult that William Gibson doesn't like Shadowrun. You can disagree, but when you go so far as to call him "whiney" and "incredibly sad" for having an opposing opinion about a game that, quite frankly, would be quite different if it were not for his work, if it would exist at all.
Jason Farlander
Gibson is well within his rights to dislike the concept of Shadowrun, and its not like he's ever threatened to persue legal action. The problem that arises is that, justified or not, his opinions on things related to the cyberpunk genre are considered more important simply because of his Father of Cyberpunk status. If he had simply stated that he wasnt a big fan and would rather not talk about it, that would have been fine. But when he publicly and viciously attacks Shadowrun for "stealing his ideas" and suchlike, it generates sufficient buzz as to have Shadowrun labelled as "underhanded" on internet encyclopedias.

Scenario: Bob wants to buy a new RPG. He is a fan of Gibson, so he starts looking for cyberpunkish games... and comes across " Some Other Cyberpunk Game (SOCG)" and Shadowrun. Bob isnt personally opposed to the idea of mixing genres and, in fact, thinks Shadowrun looks interesting.... but he remembers that the Shadowrun developers underhandedly stole Gibson's ideas without acknowledgement. So he buys SOCG.

While that might not happen often, I have no problem accepting that it happens occaisionally. And, well, thats not cool. Fans of Shadowrun presumably like to see the game do well, and have every right to compain when someone respected, like Gibson, uses his influence in such a way as to damage public opinion (and, thereby, sales) of the game - the existence of which, I might add, does not in any way interfere with the sales of his books. In fact, I would probably never have picked up Neuromancer if a friend hadnt mentioned Gibson's influence in SR, and I imagine there are other people for whom that situation applies.
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