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Luke Hardison
Situation: A character is blinded, either by a flash grenade much too close, or snowblindness ... anything causing blindness for a few days. (partly as a plot hook). To protect the eyes and promote faster healing, she is wearing a thick blindfold. (think Neo in Matrix3 if you need a visual) That character is an adept with the Astral Perception ability.

Can the adept use Astral Perception while their eyes heal? I know the function of the eyes doesn't affect Astral Perception working, but I'm specifically talking about the cloth. The cloth is a solid surface, which would block light in the physical. I've always thought that Astral Perception would work through it, but it occurred to me that a complete eye covering like that might block the ability.

My GM decision is that the purpose of the blindfold is paramount; if it's applied involuntarily to blind the target, then it affects both senses. If it's applied voluntarily as protection or for a reason other than affecting sight, the user can see through it. LOS from the aura, which extends outside the blindfold?

Canon ideas or house rulings?
Jason Farlander
Astral perception has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with physical sight. A character with no eyes can see via astral perception. It is, as described in SR3, a purely psychic sense. The intent behind applying the blindfold is irrelevant - wearing a blindfold will in no way interfere with astral perception.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
Astral perception has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with physical sight. A character with no eyes can see via astral perception. It is, as described in SR3, a purely psychic sense. The intent behind applying the blindfold is irrelevant - wearing a blindfold will in no way interfere with astral perception.

I call bullshit on that interpretation. biggrin.gif A blindfold definitely does stop astral sight, that's the entire point behind a magemask, whish is a totally mundane item that blocks astral LOS. That's it's entire purpose.


ShadowGhost
From the official FAQ at Shadowrunrpg.com:
QUOTE

The basic rule of thumb is this: if you can see through it in the physical world, then you can see through it on the astral plane. If you can't see through it physically, then you can't see through it astrally, either. The only real exceptions are astral barriers (and other astral things), which are at least partially opaque on the astral, but physically invisible.


So, no, you cannot see through the blindfold with astral perception if you cannot see through it with your own eyes.
Jason Farlander
Wrong. A magemask blocks physical LOS, and makes it more difficult to even begin to astrally percieve/project - requiring a willpower (10) test. Furthermore, it applies a +6 TN mod to any spellcasting attempt by pumping white noise into the mage's ears and prevents the caster from speaking (which hinders common geasa/centering skills).

Edit: as for the FAQ answer, I would say that for the exact same reason wearing a shroud does not prevent spell targeting via astral perception, a blindfold would not prevent astral perception - though holding it at arms length *would* hinder astral vision through it.
Luke Hardison
Actually, the magemask "completely cuts off" LOS and "astral projection" requires the Willpower (10) test. The text (MitS, p. 12) doesn't mention Astral Perception, but the phrase "completely cuts off line of sight" makes me think that the mask, and the blindfold by transference, would block Perception.

I hadn't thought about looking at the magemask to solve the problem, lol.
Jason Farlander
Alright, well, I doubt I'll be able to convince you otherwise with canon quotes. As Ive mentioned in the past, there are problems with the cut-and-dry rulings that tend to crop up in FAQ answers... but whatever. Ill just say that I've always been happy ruling as I described.

In your game, YMMV as they say.
Glyph
The FAQ needs to be taken in context. It does not apply to blindfolds; it is talking about the opacity of barriers such as walls, glass, etc. Actual, physical blindness does not prevent astral perception, so a mere blindfold certainly wouldn't.

If blocking physical LOS with a mask prevented astral perception and spell targetting, then the +6 TN penalty to spellcasting from the magemask would be redundant and unnecessary.
Odin
alright here I'll explain in laymens terms why the magemask has the functions it has so it'll be clear....

1. the blindfold blocks line of sight preventing any form of spellcasting using your eyes obviously.

2. the white noise generator disrupts the concentration of the awakened individual as both astral perception and projection require at least a few moments of concentration and are TOTALLY independant of the physical senses.

3.The gag whch is used to prevent both the somatic component and any sort of lingual centering.

oh by the way blindfolds do not block astral perception you people are just being silly.
ShadowGhost
QUOTE (Glyph)
The FAQ needs to be taken in context. It does not apply to blindfolds; it is talking about the opacity of barriers such as walls, glass, etc. Actual, physical blindness does not prevent astral perception, so a mere blindfold certainly wouldn't.

If blocking physical LOS with a mask prevented astral perception and spell targetting, then the +6 TN penalty to spellcasting from the magemask would be redundant and unnecessary.

Wrong again. Not all spells are LOS - Increase Reflexes, Increase Attribute, and various other health spells do not require LOS if you're casting them on yourself, nor do a host of other spells, when casting on yourself.

If you can't see through it on the physical, you can't see through it on the astral. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

That's why they call it a Blindfold... because it effectively renders you blind. Now if you want to ignore the FAQ and decide you can see through blindfolds, go right ahead.

You do not require eyes to astrally perceive, but you still have the same limitations as people who do have eyes.... namely if it can't be seen through on the physical plane, it can't be seen through on the astral plane.
Necrotic Monkey
QUOTE
That's why they call it a Blindfold... because it effectively renders you blind. Now if you want to ignore the FAQ and decide you can see through blindfolds, go right ahead.

And, once again, blindness doesn't stop Astral Perception. It's not Astral Sight; it doesn't use your eyes, it doesn't revolve around your eyes, and it has nothing to do with your eyes whatsoever. It's not even linked to your head. It's a full-body experience... you "see," "hear," and "feel" (words used simply because there's no other way to describe the sensation to us mere mortals) everything on the astral plane using a completely new psychic sense. A blindfold does nothing to stop it.
Odin
Well I think that covers it then unless anyone would care to dispute that with information that hasn't been presented?
ShadowGhost
QUOTE
And, once again, blindness doesn't stop Astral Perception.


Well, duh, why do think I said Astral Perception doesn't even require eyes? It is a psychic sense, but it's still visual in nature.

QUOTE
SR3, pg 171 "This allows you to SEE anything present in astral space. You can also SEE glowing auras surrounding living and magical things.


Nowhere under Magemask (MiTS, page 12) does it say that you can Astrally Perceive through a magamask, only that Astral PROJECTION requires a Willpower (10) test. In fact, they don't even mention Astral Perception period. And if a simple plastic hood wasn't enough to prevent Astral LOS for the purpose of spell targeting, then the +6 TN mod for spellcasting means dick as a force 4 Powerball could be cast with enough net successes to disintegrate said hood.


I'll stick with WizKids Official FAQ - if you can't see through it on the physical, you can't see through it on the astral. Thus, IMO, a blindfold works on the physical, and astral plane, as astral perception is still restricted from within the bounds of your body - i.e. you don't have astral eyes that float outside your body when you astrally perceive, bypassing blindfolds, magemasks etc.
RedmondLarry
I don't know of any text in the books that says Astral Perception works through a blindfold.

Without a passage in a book, I will run it a simple way -- it blocks Astral perception.
Jason Farlander
Gah... I really wanted to just back away from this, but I find this to be a decent point to make.

Lets assume we have a mage who was *born* without eyes. Hell, he doesnt even have eye SOCKETS, optic nerves, anything... just a flat layer of skin and bone where his eyes should have been. Some sort of freakish genetic anomaly. Can this freak astrally percieve? Yes.

Would putting a blindfold on this person prevent astral perception?
Dax
To back this statement up, on page 146 of the Call Free sourcebook, there is a Awakened Critter known as the Slime Mold. Which is just one huge pile of sludge. However it is awakened slude. It sees by Astral Perception.

It has no eyes, no visible head on its body to have "sight" from. So, does putting a blindfold on said creature stop it from Astrally Perceving?
BitBasher
QUOTE
it doesn't use your eyes, it doesn't revolve around your eyes, and it has nothing to do with your eyes whatsoever.
Is there a quote somewhere to back this up? It says you dont have to have to have eyes that are functional in the normal world to use astral perception, but is there anything that says your eyes can be missing and still have it function or is that just an assumption? Is there a canon example of an eyesless NPC that can percieve, or are they all just blind ones with eyes?

QUOTE
Lets assume we have a mage who was *born* without eyes. Hell, he doesnt even have eye SOCKETS, optic nerves, anything... just a flat layer of skin and bone where his eyes should have been. Some sort of freakish genetic anomaly. Can this freak astrally percieve? Yes.
I don't think there's a canon example to support this. I would believe this is an assumption.

As evidence, the magemask doesn't say it prevents physical LOS. It says it prevents LOS. It has no qualifiers to that term, it is absolute.

QUOTE
To back this statement up, on page 146 of the Call Free sourcebook, there is a Awakened Critter known as the Slime Mold. Which is just one huge pile of sludge. However it is awakened slude. It sees by Astral Perception.

It has no eyes, no visible head on its body to have "sight" from. So, does putting a blindfold on said creature stop it from Astrally Perceving?
There's no evidence how it works, because it obviously is not metahuman. If you put it in a sack then no, it should not be able to astrally percieve through it.
ShadowGhost
Yes, even without eyes (as I've said twice), you can have astral perception. Mages with Cyber vision still have astral perception.

Mages with their eyes ripped out of their head and still bleeding from the empty sockets still have astral perception.



Since you can cast spells at targets you see with astral perception with no TN penalties, a magemask ("a plastic hood" MiTS, page 12) that didn't block astral perception would be useless. Since a magemask blocks LOS, it has to work on the astral as well, otherwise you could just use astral perception to target spells.

So yes, a blindfold still blocks astral perception.



Odin

all right look at it this way because the whole bodies integrity is essential to magic use the entire body is at play otherwise using your logic that astral perception can't see through a blinfold how would a mage with cyber eyes ever use astral perception you have the right to your opinion but that doesn't make sense.
BitBasher
QUOTE
Yes, even without eyes (as I've said twice), you can have astral perception. Mages with Cyber vision still have astral perception.
The eyes are paid for by essence and thereby count as natural for the purposes of performing magic through them, bad example.

QUOTE
Mages with their eyes ripped out of their head and still bleeding from the empty sockets still have astral perception.
Is there a quote somewhere to back that up?
ShadowGhost
pg 171 - "Astral Perception does not rely on physical vision in any way."
Jason Farlander
you mean, besides pg 171, SR3: "astral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way; it is a psychic sense" (emphasis mine)
Odin
perhaps we should just look at it this way note the name of the term astral perception it's not called astral sight and has no bearing on any visual organs as the blind have no trouble with this and it relies on all the mages magical sense so I'll retort the only way you could theoretically blindfold a mages astral perception would be with a full body cast by your logic
Person 404
So if I'm perceiving, I can stick my pinkie around a corner, and consider that line of sight to whatever's there?
Odin
no because your pinky isn't a significant portion of your body lets for arguments sake consider it 1/1000th of your total body so putting it around the corner would allow you to perceive 1/1000th of your regular astral perception in my opinion.
BitBasher
QUOTE (ShadowGhost)
pg 171 - "Astral Perception does not rely on physical vision in any way."

Like I said above, I'm referring the the eyes themselves being present, not whether or not they work, I know a man whose eyes do not see can percieve. There eyes, and the ability to see are not the same thing for the purposes of what I am asking.
Necrotic Monkey
So you're all saying that a blindfold over your eyes disables Astral Perception. That a blindfold "deafens" you on the astral plane. That a blindfold makes you unable to "feel" on the astral plane. Because that's exactly what you're saying here, because astral perception is not sight. It's a completely new and different sense that only uses expressions like "hear" "see" and "feel" as a descriptive term. You're not actually "hearing" the astral plane any more than you're "seeing" it or "feeling" it. You're perceiving it. Hence the term "astral perception."

It's a single sense all its own. It's not an extension of existing ones.

If you can find a single line of text in the book that specifically states that putting a blindfold on someone will disable astral perception, you'll have something to back your theory up. Until then, it doesn't.
Jason Farlander
I dont know about you, BB, but, to me, saying that astral perception somehow requires the eyes to be physically present would be, well, relying on physical vision in *some* way - your eyes being the sensory organs for... physical vision.
Person 404
On the other hand,

"Your astral form has normal human senses of sight and hearing.... These astral senses are all "psychic" in a sense; thus, blind magicians can see perfectly well on the astral." (SR3, 173).

Could go either way, especially with the handwavy "psychic" part, but I think that saying that astral perception is a sixth sense totally unrelated to the normal 5 senses isn't really borne out well by the text.
Necrotic Monkey
You're quoting from Astral Projection, not Astral Perception.
Gigapulse
Tought Desicion, Since astrally perceiving has nothing to to with sight I would say at first instance that the blindfold would not affect his perception through the astral space.
But look at the original Post, he says that the blindfold is very thick, so you could argue that it is like having the image of a solid(wall) object right in front of your eyes.
This leads me to another question. If you are astrally perceiving and you have a physical wall between you and your target, can you see the target through the image of the wall in the astral space? if you do, then the blindfold does nothing. If you don't see through then you could say that the blindfold block your sight. And that leads me to another issue.
If Astral perception has nothing to do with physical sight, then why do you forcibly have to perceive the astral through the physical position of you eyes. I could say that since it has nothing to do with your eyes or sight you are perceiving the astral, from all of you possible angles(directions?), directly to you essence.

Does that makes any sense?? English is not my home language, so I might be explaining my self wrongly.

Hope this help

-Gig
Lord Ver'an
The abovementioned quotes from the main book make me go with the "astral perception does not require eyes" arguement. As I have always understood it, the main difference between astral projection and perception was that when projecting, you leave your body. When you are astrally perceiving, you are basically in both worlds at once; you can sense and interact with both planes but are vulnerable to both and suffer limitations because you are not fully in one world or the other - as indicated by the modifiers to taking most actions.

My own (often faulty) logic aside, the ghoul rules also support the idea that impaired vision does not hinder astral perception. Pg. 33, SrComp"All ghouls suffer from a degree of physical blindness. However, their dual nature allows them to see perfectly well on the astral plane." This description does not indicate that these rules regarding perception are abnormal.

Although not directly referring to all characters, ghouls are metahumans and much closer to Joe/Jane magic user than the aforementioned pile of goo is.
Necro Tech
If you could see through a blind fold then you could see through anything. What is the difference between a 3 X 12 piece of cloth or a 3 X 12 piece of steel? While astrally perceiving I still have to stick my head around the corner with my orbital sockets oriented towards my target to see anything. Eyes or no eyes they are part of your body. The blindfold is not.
Shev
A blindfold would not hinder astral sight. Period.

I think the problem here is that some people think of astral perception as a kind of extension to the eyes, like thermographic vision. They imagine that being in a perceiving person's shoes would be like turning on night vision: suddenly, you see things that you couldn't before, but your method (and thus vantage point) of perception remains the same. However, this is simply not true for astral perception, for all the reasons listed above. It is not an extra "sight" centered around the eyes, and thus is not affected by them. This is why blind magicians can "see", with only a +2 modifier that applies to "seeing" object solely in the physical realm. (SRComp, p.19) Astral perception is sometimes called astral vision, but it is clearly defined as something beyond the ken of one simple sense.

As for mage masks, think about this: even if the mage could see in the astral, he could not target any mundanes, nor any non-projecting/perceiving magician. The point of the mage mask is to make concentration near impossible, and cut off LOS. While the book may not state that it only works for physical LOS, it never states that it works for both physical and astral either.

Of course, this is yet another interpretation of the rules. YMMV, as always.

EDIT: NT, you are making the the same assuption as everyone else here. You are assuming that the vantage point of the perception is through the eye area, when it isn't. It is not a sense based around a single organ, like sight is to eyes, or smell is to nose.
Necro Tech
Last time on this thread.

You are standing 2" from a wall and facing it with your normal sight. It is large and red and very solid. You shut your eyes (or rip them out you Oedipal freak) and astrally perceive. What do you see?
Dax
Also last time on this thread.

It does not change the fact, that it says in the Big Black Book, that Astral Perception has nothing to do with normal sight, in anyway, shape or form.
Shev
You see a wall. It blocks your astral vision.


However, if the wall had an opening from the neck down, you would see through that opening, even if you were standing up. Again, you are not using your eyes for this, nor is the perception even coming from that area.
BitBasher
QUOTE
However, if the wall had an opening from the neck down, you would see through that opening, even if you were standing up. Again, you are not using your eyes for this, nor is the perception even coming from that area.
Again, do you have anything besides speculation to back that up? Is that stated in the book anywhere?

When astrally percieving (not projecting) then if you're wearing clothes are you blind astrally because you cant see out the middle of your torso because of your shirt?

Can you provide any quote that astral perception has nothing to do with the eyes? Remember it having nothing to do with normal vision and nothing to do with the eyes are not necessarily the same thing. Eyes and Vision are not the same thing. You can have eyes and not see, you cannot see without eyes.
Cochise
@ BitBasher:

Your answer is the "blind" flaw ... This flaw encompasses any form of physical blindness, including the one where the person is missing actual eyes ...
Magicians with that flaw can still astrally perceive ...
Shev
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Can you provide any quote that astral perception has nothing to do with the eyes? Remember it having nothing to do with normal vision and nothing to do with the eyes are not necessarily the same thing. Eyes and Vision are not the same thing. You can have eyes and not see, you cannot see without eyes.


As said before:

QUOTE (SR3 @ p.171)
...astral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way; it is a psychic sense.


Emphasis mine.

Between this passage, and the explanation of blind magicians in SRComp, I conclude that astral perception is not based on the eyes in any sense of the word. It is magic and not subject to all the same limitations we apply to our physical senses. Yes, it can't see through walls and other things, but there is no one organ you can cover that will cut off astral perception. (execpt the mind, but if you cut that off, astral percetion is a moot point smile.gif)

If you want it in game terms, there is no perception test to notice things in the astral (unless they are specifically hiding from you). Therefore, it is not an ordinary (limited) physical sense.
Garland
So you're saying that someone astrally perceiving can see out their ass with no problem, eh?

No thanks.
Necrotic Monkey
That's less absurd than the other argument that a blindfold deafens and numbs an astrally perceiving character. Or that cyberware (namely Independant Cybereyes) extend those same psychic senses. Or that being completely blind, complete with having your eyes plucked from your body, doesn't affect your ability to use astral perception, but -- for some reason -- placing a piece of cloth over your eyes does.

Of course he's not saying that at all. He's saying that, as a completely new and independant sense, astral perception doesn't rely on our own ability to see, hear, or feel. Anymore than being blinded makes us unable to taste.
Arethusa
So if I stand in front of a brick wall, which is both physically and astrally opaque, I can't see through it, but if I tie a brick wall to my face, I can see just fine on the astral?
Necrotic Monkey
Essentially, yes. Just like a brickwall will mute the sounds on the other side of it, but a brick in front of your eyes won't muffle anything. Or a brickwall will stop you from feeling a breeze from a fan on the other side, but a brick tied to your face won't stop you from feeling the breeze.

Again, it's a completely independant sense that only uses terms like "see" for lack of a better word.
BitBasher
So Necrotic, can you provide a book quote that astral perception replaces hearing and touch? I can provide a quote that says it does not replace hearing. It's below.

From multiple descriptions in the book astral perception is astral sight, auras have colors, he sees them, he does not taste or feel them. It just isn't related to physical vision in any way.

Can you provide an example of anything other than sight descriptive terms to describe astral perception? Hearing even works normally when astral, and remember:
QUOTE (SR3 p. 173)
"Your astral form has normal human senses of sight and hearing.... These astral senses are all "psychic" in a sense; thus, blind magicians can see perfectly well on the astral."
Necrotic Monkey
Once again, that's astral projection, not perception. Hence the use of the words "your astral form."

SR3 p. 171, Astral Perception: "You can touch and interact with astral forms." Well, unless you put on a blindfold. ohplease.gif

Oh, and SR3 p. 171, Astral Perception: "...astral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way; it is a psychic sense."

Note the use of the word "sense." As opposed to "an extention of your natural senses." It is a completely seperate sense all its own and is unrelated to physical vision in any way, shape, or form.
tjn
If I may interject a point here... It's the same thing as clothing. Clothing does not hinder any perception on the astral plane, neither should a blindfold.

Well enless the blindfold is like three feet thick and extends past the individual's aura... but that would just be silly. wobble.gif
Dice
Ok, how about this as a compromise that seems to cover both sides of the arguement without directly contradicting 'canon':

Each Astrally percieving creature has an'Astral Eye' that percieves from a species-specific area . For metahumans this 'Astral eye' percieves from roughly the Forehead of the metahuman. If the species is a blob of proplasm its Astral Eye 'floats' freely within it, so it can percieve in any direction it chooses (but can't do much from inside a sealed bucket)

As long as the Mage has an 'eye' sized area of his forehead uncovered he can percieve from it Astrally.

This would mean that a Magemask would still be effective, but a thin strip of cloth over the (real) eyes, or a band-aid over a forehead cut, or a hat (unless its pulled right down) wouldn't.
BitBasher
So, necrotic, just to be clear you're saying that when projecting your astral form has the normal senses of sight and hearing, but when perecieving you do not, you have no senses like normal sight and hearing despite actually being in your body?

so percieving is sensory wise completely different than your senses when projecting?
Garland
I run this basically like Dice said above. The physical eyes aren't important to astral perception, but their location is symbolically important in that astral perception emanates from it. Since a blindfold is physically opaque, it is also astrally opaque. A blindfolded astrally perceiving mage could theoretically "hear" an astral spirit talking to him, but not see it (to target it for sorcery or whatever).

Otherwise you have people seeing out of their ass, like I mentioned, or having eyes in the back of their head, and etc. and etc. If a mage wants that, they have to project and move their astral form around appropriately (or inappropriately, as the case may be).
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