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Necrotic Monkey
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jul 21 2004, 10:25 AM)
So, necrotic, just to be clear you're saying that when projecting your astral form has the normal senses of sight and hearing, but when perecieving you do not, you have no senses like normal sight and hearing despite actually being in your body?

No, I'm saying that your astral form has the ability to see and hear the physical world as well as the astral plane. That's why you can still see and hear the physical world even while projecting, albeit with the usual +2 TN penalty when appropriate. This is also why they specifically mention it as part of your astral form, because otherwise you'd only be able to perceive the astral plane -- which has no bearing on your physical ability to see or hear.
Moon-Hawk
Quite a discussion.
In my game, I would rule that the sense of astral perception sees from the surface of the aura. Therefore a thin blindfold would have no effect, since the aura would extend past it, but a bulky thick mask could block it.
Basically, the same rationale for how a touch spell can work through armored clothing.
Necrotic Monkey
Why? Even a full suit of hardened milspec armor doesn't hide your aura.
Moon-Hawk
Well now it's a question of how big is a Shadowrun aura?
tjn
QUOTE (Garland @ Jul 21 2004, 12:10 PM)
The physical eyes aren't important to astral perception, but their location is symbolically important in that astral perception emanates from it.

That's more dependant upon the tradition of the mage in question. Hermetically, yes it might make sense but hermetic magic is but one interpretation; and according to how the Astral is presented in OOC and Game Information (IE the "reality" of the situation), eyes have jack squat to do with Astral Perception.

QUOTE
Since a blindfold is physically opaque, it is also astrally opaque.

So is clothing, but one can percieve living auras through them just fine.

QUOTE
A blindfolded astrally perceiving mage could theoretically "hear" an astral spirit talking to him, but not see it (to target it for sorcery or whatever).

Once again, Astral perception is not "seeing" or "hearing" anything, it's a completely seperate sense. It's akin to trying to describe what you see to a person that has been blind their entire life.

QUOTE
Otherwise you have people seeing out of their ass, like I mentioned, or having eyes in the back of their head, and etc. and etc.  If a mage wants that, they have to project and move their astral form around appropriately (or inappropriately, as the case may be).

Once again, divorce the concept of "seeing" anything. There is no point of origin on an astral form because the astral form itself is the point of origin.
Garland
Sorry, for astral perception, it makes sense that because the perceiving mage is still within his/her body and still interacting with the physical world, they are still bound to their analogous senses.

I can see I would've saved myself a lot of trouble in this discussion had I simply replaced "seeing", "hearing" etc. with "sensing."

I'll certainly agree that when an astral form is projecting, it's a whole new ball game.

Maybe looking at dual-natured critters is another way to try and figure this out. If a barghest has its tail and hindquarters sticking around a corner, and you're around the corner, can it see you?
Herald of Verjigorm
The barghest can already smell you and is only pointing its less deadly end at you for humiliation purposes before it howls you into a coma.
Garland
For the purposes of this example, there's a sewage treatment facility upwind, you're downwind, and the barghest has a bad cold. Smart alec. nyahnyah.gif

Edit: spelling.
Necrotic Monkey
My personal opinion is that no, he wouldn't be able to see around the corner with astral perception. Just because it's a psychic, independant sense, that doesn't mean it's not still a directional sense, at least for more beings if for no other reason than because its easier for us to comprehend it that way.
Garland
So now it's directional.

If you're hiding under a table and the barghest's head is above the table and the rest of its body is below, can it "sense" you with just its feet and torso in line-of-sight?
Necrotic Monkey
Yep, sure can. Just like anyone else could sense you on a successful Perception Test to defeat your Stealth (Hiding) Test. Why, you could even be facing the opposite direction and still succeed. Imagine that.
tjn
QUOTE (Garland)
Sorry, for astral perception, it makes sense that because the perceiving mage is still within his/her body and still interacting with the physical world, they are still bound to their analogous senses.

What analogous senses are you refering to? It's a completely new sense and not analogous at all. A character astrally percieves with his eyes as much as he hears, touches, tastes or smells with his eyes.

QUOTE
I can see I would've saved myself a lot of trouble in this discussion had I simply replaced "seeing", "hearing" etc. with "sensing."

Quite likely.

QUOTE
I'll certainly agree that when an astral form is projecting, it's a whole new ball game.

If anything, the wonky thing is that when astrally projecting, astral perception duplicates hearing and vision (if only without the ability to read words).

QUOTE
Maybe looking at dual-natured critters is another way to try and figure this out.  If a barghest has its tail and hindquarters sticking around a corner, and you're around the corner, can it see you?

Can it see the character? No. Can it perceive the fact that the character (who is not trying to hide) is around the corner with astral perception? In my opinion, yes, and until the barghest moves around the corner, both effectively have cover against each other. However whether Astral Perception is directional or not is not touched upon, and will require a judgement call on the part of the GM.
Garland
Okay then. This is probably where we agree to disagree.
JaronK
Here's my own oppinion about it, though in the end this is just going to come down to each GM's personal idea.

You see, using astral perception, from your eyes, and hear from your ears. The astral is a place of the mind... since the mind of the mage believes that vision comes from the eyes, he will see from there when he astrally percieves, and since the mind of the mage believes that hearing comes from ears, he'll hear from his ears. A very well trained mage might see from elsewhere, but that would require a great deal of work, perhaps even a metamagic technique.

Now, auras "bleed through" objects, allowing those touch attacks. That doesn't mean you see from the edge of your aura though... you'd still see from where your eyes are. Thus, a blind fold wouldn't enable you to see, since it would be covering your eyes and is opaque to the physical world. This fits with the cannon idea that you can't see with a magemask on. However, if you were looking, astrally, at a mage that was covered up in mummy tape, you'd still see his aura bleeding through the tape. That doesn't mean the mage in mummy tape could see you, however.

I would say that a mage who was blind since birth could see from a place other than his eyes... since he has never seen with them, his mind might allow him to see from another place in his astral aura. This might allow for the blind swordsman arctype... a blind adept wearing a blindfold that can see through the astral. In his case, his mind doesn't restrict his astral vision to his eyes, so he could effectively see out of his chin or whatever.

I view it very much like the matrix... what you do in the astral is based on what your mind thinks is possible. You have to unlearn things like gravity and all that... where you see from is probably something most mages don't think to unlearn.

I would say, however, that duel beings always have to see out their eyes in the astral, no matter what... since they exist on both planes, their physical bodies seem more attached to their astral ones, in some ways.

JaronK
Apathy
I got lazy and haven't read the whole thread, so please forgive me if I'm going over ground someone else covered.

1. Barriers that block physical sight block astral sight. So if you face an opaque sheet of paper, you can't see what's on the other side of the paper, assuming it blocks your line of sight.

2. Astral vision isn't limited by your ability to physically see, but things that block physical visibility (obsticals, smoke, submerged under water, etc.) by getting between you and the target affect your astral perception as well.

3. Your aura extends several inches beyond your physical body. So the aura of your body can be seen even when it's physically tied up in a sack. This does not necessarily imply that you can see out of the sack (open to interpretation).

3. The crux of the question is, what 'sees' astrally?
  • Is it a pin-point origin sense based on where your physical eyes are located on your body, or can you see from any part of your aura? If the answer is 'any part', then I should be able to astrally look around corners by sticking my finger around the corner and leaving the rest of my body hidden. I personally rule that astral perception uses the same general physical location on your body as normal vision (the center of your face, probably in the area on the forehead that the metaphysical types refer to as 'the third eye'). So if there's an obsticle between your 'third eye' and the target, you couldn't see it. Note that a GM might well rule that a 2 inch blindfold doesn't actually cover the third eye, but a sack would.
  • If my aura extends 3 inches away from my body in all directions, does my astral sight come from the edge of my aura (i.e. 3 inches away from my meat bod) or from the meat bod itself? For game simplicity, I play it that I astrally percieve from the edge of my meat body, not from 3 inches past it. I can see valid arguments either way, though.
Are these the only issues, or is there something I missed?
Cochise
QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)
Once again, that's astral projection, not perception.  Hence the use of the words "your astral form."


Problem there: You already have an "astral form" when you start to perceive astrally. That astral form has different attributes than the one you have while astrally perceiving, but it's an astral form nontheless ...
That astral form has its own set of senses. Audio being the same as your physical sense (even while projecting). Touch being the physical sense plus an addition that informs you about interaction with astral objects (you lose he pyhsical part while projecting). Smell and Taste are unreferenced. And finally "sight" which is replaced by astral perception which is described in analogies to physical sight (otherwise we'd be unable to comprehend the concept) but exists simulataniously to physical sight (again only until you start projecting)

QUOTE
SR3 p. 171, Astral Perception:  "You can touch and interact with astral forms."  Well, unless you put on a blindfold. ohplease.gif


I guess that's the part where part of you misconception comes from. Activated astral perception "physically" manifest your astral form on the astral plane. Once there you have the ability of interacting with other astral forms that also includes an astral equivalent to the physical "touch" sense ...

QUOTE
Oh, and SR3 p. 171, Astral Perception:  "...astral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way; it is a psychic sense."

Note the use of the word "sense."  As opposed to "an extention of your natural senses."  It is a completely seperate sense all its own and is unrelated to physical vision in any way, shape, or form.


This is true however and that's the part that creates the problem with the mage-mask / blindfold ...

I usually describe this as a problem of defining something as "part of the target" vs. "not part of the target".
First some facts (shortened, because I'm too lazy and too tired after work to search all relevant quotes from the core rules and MitS):
  • Any object living or non-living can be seen on the astral as a "faded", "greyish" reflection of itself. (should be p. 161 SR3)
  • The transparency of objects on the astral is not explicitly ruled on with the current SR rules. However there is one thing that suggest that all objects retain their normal transparency on the astral as well: Water as an transparent medium does not interfere with astral perception in any way (MitS, p. 82) *Lifeforms within the water however do*. The FAQ answer heads into the same direction by saying that as a rule of thumb any object retains the same transparency as on the physical plane
  • Any living being has an aura that surrounds the astral representation of its physical body (again p. 161) => There are two different entities envolved here:
    1. The reflection of the physical body (including any clothes worn)
    2. The aura
  • Obviously anything that can be considered part of the reflection, does not interfere with the visibilty of the aura, otherwise we'd have modifiers for astral perception on living beings who wear clothes and we'd have modifiers on spellcasting tests that use astral perception since clothes would create some sort of cover ... we don't have something like that. This usually leads to the interpretation that auras "radiate" through worn clothes. A concept that's understandable but bears problems of its own: If auras really radiated through clothes then why wouldn't they radiate through a "paper" wall made of tin foil that is in direct touch with a person while a mage is astrally perceiving on the other side of said wall. On the physical plane the tin foil is most definitely not transparent for human eyes => It appears that the aura actually surrounds not the pure felsh and blood body, but anything that can be considered "part" of it as well. This also explains why it's not possible to perceive the aura of the person behind the tin foil wall, since that wall cannot be considered part of the body that is surrounded by the body.
  • Once a character starts to astrally perceive, the reflection of his physical body gets an astral form as an overlay (more colored and vivid than an aura on its own, again p. 161 SR3), which uses the physical attributes, the normal physical senses plus the previously mentioned additions to said senses. The aura is unaffected by that change => it's still there and can still be assensed.
  • If a character starts to project, he separates his astral form from the pyhsical body, taking the aura with him. What stays back, is the reflection of the physical body (mixture from several rules on stral projection, assensing and background info)
Now where does astral perception fit into all that, you might ask !?
The above points have established that anything that can be considered as "part of the perceived entity" does not interfere with astral perception on the "being perceived". Now it's not too far of a stretch that the same is true in the perceiving direction, because that would perfectly fit into the analogy of vision and it would explain why walls and the like actually retain the same transparency as on the physical plane, since a wall usually cannot be considered as part of an entity called "perceiving mage" (or "projecting mage" for that matter).
Now the final remaining question is: How can a worn blindfold or a mage mask be considered "not part of that entity" while worn clothes are "part of it"?

The answer is: Individual decision, based on intent and situation.

Yes, I'm aware that pretty much sounds like arbitrariness of the rules, but I can assure you that this is exactly in line with how SR magic works:
  • When using an invisibilty spell on a charatcer do you require the person to be naked? If not then you consider the character's gear and clothes as "part of the target". In general all spells of SR appear to affect the whole body including worn gear / clothes. The only notable exception there is the shapechange spell that explicitly demands the target to be affected apart from worn clothes.
  • In contrast to that general rule the levitation spell can target the whole entity (including gear), but it can also target hand-held gear, otherwise the rules on levitating objects from a person including a resistance via strength would be necessary
  • The rules on spells say that you cannot target individual parts of a target (like cyberware)
  • The very same rules do however allow to use a spell like "cripple limb" to perform what the previously mentioned rules disallows, since a limb is an individual part of the whole entity ...
Conclusion: There is no true "wrong" or "right" on the issue whether or not a blindfold / mage mask can block astral perception, since both interpretations are just fine with the rules as written. The intend of a mage mask however clearly states that its designed to destroy LOS ... and LOS can be achived both physical sight and / or astral perception => A mage mask should block astral perception to fullfil its purpose.
A blindfold should do the same.
=> It's not so much a matter of "logic" only, but also a matter of more esoteric concepts like "intend" ...
And that's pretty much how I handle it ...
xizor
this is something that i don't think has been covered in any thread, that i think is very pertinent to this one,

what is a mage mask made of?
and could what it is made of possibly effect aseral perception?

sorry to have interrupted your regularly scheduled argument
BitBasher
QUOTE (xizor)
what is a mage mask made of?
and could what it is made of possibly effect aseral perception?

A mage mask is mundane normal material, the hood is opaque plastic IIRC.
Fygg Nuuton
its the loud random noises that make perceiving difficult, the hood cuts off physical LOS iirc
BitBasher
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
its the loud random noises that make perceiving difficult, the hood cuts off physical LOS iirc

Not to nitpick, but that's one of the points I keep saying and people keep ignoring. The hood cuts off "LOS" not "Physical LOS" It's is not qualified to only be physical. This is where one of my main points comes from.
Fygg Nuuton
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton @ Jul 21 2004, 08:43 PM)
its the loud random noises that make perceiving difficult, the hood cuts off physical LOS iirc

Not to nitpick, but that's one of the points I keep saying and people keep ignoring. The hood cuts off "LOS" not "Physical LOS" It's is not qualified to only be physical. This is where one of my main points comes from.

i always thought the hood was opaque, simply because thats how id make it... ill have to read it again
tjn
QUOTE (xizor)
this is something that i don't think has been covered in any thread, that i think is very pertinent to this one,

what is a mage mask made of?
and could what it is made of possibly effect aseral perception?

sorry to have interrupted your regularly scheduled argument

According to NAGNA, a magemask:

Cost 200
A simple plastic hood, easily fitted over a prisoner's head, the meagemask blocks vision, and is equipped with a gag-tube that can be shoved into the magician's mouth, allowing him o breathe but not speak. The nostrils are left uncovered for breathing as well. The mask is also equipped with a white-noise generator that can be cranked up to deliver as much as 90 DB to the wearer's ears. This serves as a major distraction for the victim.

As such it's a bit more then just a simple blindfold. Both remove LOS, but only one ruins the victim's concentration.

To me, as just turning on the ability to percieve astrally requires an action, and therefore some amount of focus, that 90 DB of white noise is enough to distract someone from astrally percieving.

A blindfold does nothing to stop the mage from focusing on his astral perception, whereas a magemask does.

Talk of intent and symbology are IC reasonings for what it does what it does and falls under the perview of traditions. Different traditions will view what happens differently, if a mage believes that without eyes he can not astrally perceive then that will be what happens. However the hermetics have already deduced that and any hermetic mage worth his salt isn't going to limit himself in such a way.
Cochise
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
its the loud random noises that make perceiving difficult, the hood cuts off physical LOS iirc


It doesn't specifically say physical LOS ...

QUOTE (p. 12 MitS)
It consists of a plastic hood that fits over the prisoner's head, completely cutting off line of sight


Since line of sight can be achieved with physical eyes and astral perception and line of sight is "completely" cut off .. Draw your own conclusions ~shrugs~
BitBasher
QUOTE (Cochise)
QUOTE (p. 12 MitS)
It consists of a plastic hood that fits over the prisoner's head, completely cutting off line of sight


Since line of sight can be achieved with physical eyes and astral perception and line of sight is "completely" cut off .. Draw your own conclusions ~shrugs~

That's pretty much the one I was going for.
Necrotic Monkey
You can use astral perception regardless of how you're blinded. Your eyes can be plucked from their sockets (which, by the way, doesn't qualify for the Blind flaw since that can easily be repaired with cybernetics). Your optic nerves could be completely destroyed (ditto). You could have been born with the portion of your brain that uses sight never developed or otherwise suffered traumatic brain damage that caused it to die (hey, we have a winner for the Blind flaw). You could have been in a tragic metal forging accident that left a blurb of steel molten and solidified in front of your eyes. And in all four cases, you can still use astral perception because -- pay attention, this is the important part -- astral perception doesn't rely on physical vision in any way whatsoever.

The mage mask does nothing to prove otherwise. Line of sight and astral perception are two seperate entities within the context of the game.

Need proof? Check out SR3 pp. 181-182 under "Spell Targeting." When describing line of sight, astral perception is never mentioned even when discussing the ways in which LOS can be modified. Later on they do talk about astral perception and even mention that the caster gets the best of both worlds; even if completely blinded on the physical world, he can still use astral perception to target opponents and, because he exists on both planes simultaneously, can still channel a spell into the physical world to bring a lot of hurt onto the target. And of course they never once mention line of sight when describing astral perception, because its an unrelated term in the game.

But hey, if you want to limit astral perception by physical sight in your game, no one's stopping you. 'Course you'll have to come up with a whole new BS reason why Independant Cybereyes modifies a completely psychic and magical sense that is wholly unrelated to physical vision.
Apathy
I'd like to see if we can at least all have a concensus on this:

If I make a wide-brimmed hat (6" brim) and attach a curtain on the end of it that is opaque and drops all the way to the floor, would everyone agree that this blocks perception?

1. It's more than 3" from your meat body, so it extends past your aura.
2. It blocks physical vision.

Shouldn't this block astral 'visual' perception (while doing basically nothing to astral 'hearing')?
BitBasher
QUOTE
pay attention, this is the important part -- astral perception doesn't rely on physical vision in any way whatsoever.
I have never, ever once said it did so far. In fact, I agree that mundane vision and astral perception are not permanently tied together, I acknowledge that blind people can percieve. I do not debate this. I haven't yet.

having eyes and being able to see are two different things. That is the point I have trying to impress.

QUOTE
The mage mask does nothing to prove otherwise. Line of sight and astral perception are two seperate entities within the context of the game.
That's like saying Eyeballs and the ability to see blue are two different things. Of course. One is an organ that lets you see, the other is the act of seeing. One is an object and the other is an action.

QUOTE
Need proof? Check out SR3 pp. 181-182 under "Spell Targeting." When describing line of sight, astral perception is never mentioned even when discussing the ways in which LOS can be modified. Later on they do talk about astral perception and even mention that the caster gets the best of both worlds; even if completely blinded on the physical world, he can still use astral perception to target opponents and, because he exists on both planes simultaneously, can still channel a spell into the physical world to bring a lot of hurt onto the target. And of course they never once mention line of sight when describing astral perception, because its an unrelated term in the game.
Yes, but while Astrally Percieving you still need valid LOS to the target to cast a spell. While physically percieving or astrally percieving the LOS rules for spellcasting do not change. You're comparing different parts of speech.

QUOTE
But hey, if you want to limit astral perception by physical sight in your game, no one's stopping you. 'Course you'll have to come up with a whole new BS reason why Independant Cybereyes modifies a completely psychic and magical sense that is wholly unrelated to physical vision.
Er no, there's no BS and no odd explanations. The sense "Astral Perception" happens from where the natural eyes were on your body. You cannot percieve through an independant cybereyes. On your astral template there's no eye there, just a dark shadow of cyberware. Also, I do not limit astral perception to physical sight in my game nor do I advocate it. That would mean that blund people couldn't percieve.

QUOTE
I'd like to see if we can at least all have a concensus on this:

If I make a wide-brimmed hat (6" brim) and attach a curtain on the end of it that is opaque and drops all the way to the floor, would everyone agree that this blocks perception?

1. It's more than 3" from your meat body, so it extends past your aura.
2. It blocks physical vision.

Shouldn't this block astral 'visual' perception (while doing basically nothing to astral 'hearing')?
Sure, I agree with that no problem.
Necrotic Monkey
1. No clue where you're getting this 3" thing from. You can be in a JIM suit of armor and still have your aura targeted. Not that it matters.
2. Yep.

Nope. No more than it blocks your ability to hear.
Necrotic Monkey
QUOTE
I have never, ever once said it did so far. In fact, I agree that mundane vision and astral perception are not permanently tied together, I acknowledge that blind people can percieve. I do not debate this. I haven't yet.

having eyes and being able to see are two different things. That is the point I have trying to impress.

It's a moot point. You're saying that in order to see, you have to have eyes in your eye sockets and that anything blocking your eye sockets cuts off your ability to use astral perception even though astral perception has no reliances on anything relating to physical vision.

It doesn't. As proven by both astral perception (which is only "sight" in terms of description) and independant cybereyes (which provides sight from locations other than your eye sockets).

QUOTE
Yes, but while Astrally Percieving you still need valid LOS to the target to cast a spell. While physically percieving or astrally percieving the LOS rules for spellcasting do not change. You're comparing different parts of speech.

More correctly, astral perception can be used in place of LOS. Again, two different techniques and two different terms within the game.

QUOTE
Er no, there's no BS and no odd explanations. The sense "Astral Perception" happens from where the natural eyes were on your body. You cannot percieve through an independant cybereyes. On your astral template there's no eye there, just a dark shadow of cyberware.

Ah, now you're making up more BS nonsense. First of all, you could have easily been born without any physical eyes and you still get to use astral perception even though your "astral template" was never modified and there was never any natural eyes for you to be perceiving from. Second, independant cybereyes effectively create "natural eyes" that modify your "astral template" (both resulting from the fact that it was paid for with Essence), so if you're going to go with physical obstacles limiting your ability to use astral perception, then you have to accept independant cybereyes as an augmentation as well.
Apathy
QUOTE
Sure, I agree with that no problem.

QUOTE
Nope. No more than it blocks your ability to hear.

Then we're never going to agree on this. We have completely different interpretations of what our aura is and how it interacts with our environment. We're also never going to convince the people we're debating with to our point of view. I think there's no point in continuing the thread because we're all just saying the same things over and over again.

But it was an interesting point to think about, and it made me better define exactly what I thought, so thanks!
tjn
QUOTE (Apathy)
Shouldn't this block astral 'visual' perception (while doing basically nothing to astral 'hearing')?

There is no such thing as astral "visual" perception.
There is no such thing as astral "hearing" perception.

A normal metahuman has five predominate senses:

Vision
Hearing
Smell
Taste
Touch

A normal metahuman mage has six predominate senses.

Vision
Hearing
Smell
Taste
Touch
Astral Percetion

Astral Perception is in no way a variant or replacement or even analogous to any sense we currently have. I don't understand why people can't quite grasp the concept that astral perception does not rely upon physical vision in any way; it is a psychic sense.

As eyes, or even the space in which they occupy, are a part of physical vision, they are not relied upon in any way when dealing with astral perception.
Person 404
That does get kind of weird when you move to projecting, though.
BitBasher
QUOTE
Astral Perception is in no way a variant or replacement or even analogous to any sense we currently have.
That is never stated. It is in every single example of astral perception completely analogous to sight, and in no examples does it do anything that sight does not do. Everything on the astral is referenced in terms of color, ect. It is never, ever referenced in any way other than visual except that it is a referred to as "a psychic sense" in that it does not rely on having normal vision to do it. Can an example be provided where this sense give any input other than visual, or where this sense is described in any way other than visual?

Functionally a mage has the following senses while not percieving/projecting:
Sight
Hearing
Touch
Taste
Smell

And while percieving:
Astral Sight (perception)
Hearing
Touch
Taste (only on physical world stimuli)
Smell (only on physical world stimuli)

And While Projecting:
Astral Sight (perception)
Hearing
Touch
(Taste and Smell are never to my knowledge referenced astrally)

QUOTE
Then we're never going to agree on this. We have completely different interpretations of what our aura is and how it interacts with our environment. We're also never going to convince the people we're debating with to our point of view. I think there's no point in continuing the thread because we're all just saying the same things over and over again.
I absolutely agree, but work is slow. Neither side can be directly backed up by the book, but both sides can infer their points.
Necrotic Monkey
Or while using the KISS principle:

Mundane Senses: Sight, Hearing, Touch, Smell, Taste.
Awakened Senses: Sight, Hearing, Touch, Smell, Taste, Astral Perception.
Astral Senses: Astral Perception, Sight, Hearing.

There is no such thing as "astral sight."
Apathy
QUOTE
Astral Senses: Astral Perception, Sight, Hearing.

Actually, you don't have [normal] sight while on the astral. If you did, you could read, interpret diagrams, etc.

You also don't really have normal hearing, or you'd be able to understand spoken words coming from a speaker or a telecom reciever.

Instead, what you have are the astral analogs to vision and sight. I tend to think of astral perception being the astral analog to vision, but it would logically include both of those two senses.

So my version of your 3 categories would be:

Mundane Senses: Sight, Hearing, Touch, Smell, Taste.
Astral Senses: Astral Perception (which has components analogous to sight and hearing).

I don't list your 'Awakened' category, because some of the senses seem to be mutually exclusive (i.e. while astrally percieving, you don't have normal vision).
Necrotic Monkey
Nope, you are specifically granted the limited ability to see and hear the physical world with certain restrictions. It's seperate from astral perception which is why they specifically mention it. If astral perception were one in the same, there would be no need to mention it.
tjn
QUOTE (BitBasher)
That is never stated.

Err I must have been born without this psychic sense then.

QUOTE
It is in every single example of astral perception completely analogous to sight,

Except the fact that astral perception doesn't percieve light energy. And the wonky Astral Projection simulates it except for the written word which it specifically does not.

QUOTE
and in no examples does it do anything that sight does not do.

Bit? When was the last time you saw the emotional resdue on an object?

QUOTE
Everything on the astral is referenced in terms of color, ect. It is never, ever referenced in any way other than visual except that it is a referred to as "a psychic sense" in that it does not rely on having normal vision to do it.

Visual interpretations of astral perception is only used as an expression to describe what they're percieving so that the mundanes can understand. It's known as "the Sight" only because vision is our most dominate sense and therefore easiest to understand.

Again, how do you describe colors to a person who has been blind since birth? You use elements he can understand.

How do you describe the astral plane to a person who was born without the gift? You use elements he can understand.

Take one of the more ubiquitous visual interpretations of astral perception, that of black patches on someone's aura to represent the presence and location of cyberware. If the percepter only gets one success, they only know if they have cyber, not where or even the extent. With one success, that black patch "looks" the exact same whether it's 1 MP of headware memory, or if they're a cyberzombie.

QUOTE
Can an example be provided where this sense give any input other than visual, or where this sense is described in any way other than visual?

Err, the entire assensing table itself?

QUOTE
Functionally a mage has the following senses while not percieving/projecting:
Sight
Hearing
Touch
Taste
Smell

The predominate senses, yes.

QUOTE
And while percieving:
Astral Sight (perception)

There is no such thing as Astral Sight. You both see the physical world and Astrally Percieve at the same time.
QUOTE
Hearing
Touch
Taste (only on physical world stimuli)
Smell (only on physical world stimuli)

Touch is the only sense that is stated works on both planes. (Astral Interaction, 172, BBB)

QUOTE
And While Projecting:
Astral Sight (perception)

Why would it specifically mention the fact that while projecting a mage has the normal human senses of sight (with the wonky effects) in addition to the ability to assense as seperate senses if they were the same sense? (Astral Senses, pg 173, BBB)

QUOTE
Hearing
Touch
(Taste and Smell are never to my knowledge referenced astrally)

Sensory input that has no equivelent may be translated as smell or taste in the astral. (Under Astral Senses, pg 173, BBB)

QUOTE
QUOTE
Then we're never going to agree on this. We have completely different interpretations of what our aura is and how it interacts with our environment. We're also never going to convince the people we're debating with to our point of view. I think there's no point in continuing the thread because we're all just saying the same things over and over again.
I absolutely agree, but work is slow. Neither side can be directly backed up by the book, but both sides can infer their points.


How does one infer that astral perception and vision are the same thing from the following sentence found on page 171, under Astral Perception, in the BBB.

QUOTE
You can also see glowing auras surrounding living and magical things and gain information from them, using a psychic sixth sense known as assensing.


Assensing is a sixth sense, meaning seperate from the other five major senses. This includes vision.
BitBasher
Now I'll hilight the part of that sentence that I find relevant, it's all in the interpretation.

QUOTE
You can also see glowing auras surrounding living and magical things and gain information from them, using a psychic sixth sense known as assensing.
biggrin.gif

IMHO analogous to sight except on the astral, and it's psychic because it doesnt have anything to do with physical vision, as we discussed. That doesn;t change the fact that in pretty much every example you are seeing it.

Probably more to come, im cooking dinner.

QUOTE
Assensing is a sixth sense, meaning seperate from the other five major mundane senses. This includes mundane vision.
With the two bold words added, I agree there!
tjn
QUOTE (Apathy)
You also don't really have normal hearing, or you'd be able to understand spoken words coming from a speaker or a telecom reciever.

Care to provide a page reference for that chummer? Cuz there's nothing that supports that view in the BBB. Only thing that states is that symbols and words show their emotional impact, rather then what they say.

QUOTE
Instead, what you have are the astral analogs to vision and sight. I tend to think of astral perception being the astral analog to vision, but it would logically include both of those two senses.

You tend to think that way because you do not have the ability to assense, and therefore compare it to experiences you understand. It's a new and different sense that no one has ever experienced (that I know of).

Think outside the box.

Change the pair-a-dig-um.
BitBasher
inside the box.

paradigm is just fine. biggrin.gif

it is not "sensed" in all the examples, it is "seen". smile.gif
tjn
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Now I'll hilight the part of that sentence that I find relevant, it's all in the interpretation.

And now I'll show you where your interpretation is wrong.

QUOTE
You can also see glowing auras surrounding living and magical things and gain information from them, using a psychic sixth sense known as assensing.
rotate.gif

Not sight. Because assensing is not vision. It is a completely seperate sense.

QUOTE
IMHO analogous to sight except on the astral, and it's psychic because it doesnt have anything to do with physical vision, as we discussed. That doesn;t change the fact that in pretty much every example you are seeing it.

Describe to me astrally seeing the emotional imprint of a hit and run?

What terms would one use? Dark? Dark is the relative absence of light, it happened in the middle of the day. Bloody? Is a tactile sensation, in any case they cleaned up the sidewalk 30 minutes ago. A miasma of black clouds? What clouds? It's a perfectly sunny, not a cloud in the sky.

All are interpretations of that perception, not the perception itself.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Assensing is a sixth sense, meaning seperate from the other five major mundane senses. This includes mundane vision.
With the two bold words added, I agree there!

Yet there's no such thing as Awakened Vision to compare against the mundane version of vision....
tjn
QUOTE (BitBasher)
inside the box.

paradigm is just fine. biggrin.gif

Says you nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE
it is not "sensed" in all the examples, it is "seen".  smile.gif


Because us mundanes have no concept of the astral plane, and therefore is couched in terms we can best relate to wobble.gif
BitBasher
Actually I just reread the section on astral perception and I believe we're both wrong and both right. Now is one of those times I wish i could copy and past from the E-book of the BBB that I can't buy yet wink.gif

I will be posting again. smile.gif

Incidentally it has to do with your quote above. Assensing is not astral perception, assensing is something you can do during astral perception. Astral perception and assensing are similar but not really the same thing.
tjn
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Actually I just reread the section on astral perception and I believe we're both wrong and both right. Now is one of those times I wish i could copy and past from the E-book of the BBB that I can't buy yet wink.gif

Shhh... I keep telling you Bit, the gaming police are going to get you if you don't watch out. spin.gif

QUOTE
I will be posting again. smile.gif

Heh... I'll wait, I got nothing else to do tonight.

QUOTE
Incidentally it has to do with your quote above. Assensing is not astral perception, assensing is something you can do during astral perception. Astral perception and assensing are similar but not really the same thing.

I personally hated the phrasing of those two... lemme take a guess.

Astral perception would allow one to know where things are, but assensing required to get any info about what it is?
Apathy
QUOTE
Care to provide a page reference for that chummer?

I hate to admit it, but I was wrong about hearing on the astral plane. Could have sworn I'd read that it worked that way...Maybe it was different back in SR2, or maybe I'd just been sniffing glue that day. spin.gif

I still disagree with your overal interpretation, but I do acknowledge that it's a potentially valid interpretation of the rules. I just interpret them differently.
Necrotic Monkey
Bah. Wrong thread.
Apathy
[Deleted my response to non-sequiter]
BitBasher
QUOTE
I personally hated the phrasing of those two... lemme take a guess.

Astral perception would allow one to know where things are, but assensing required to get any info about what it is?
Give the man a cigar. Yes. Astrap Perception and Assensing are not the same thing, and for the purposes of this thread they have been used interchangably.

Here we go:

Under the heading Astral Perception on SR3 p 171 the first paragraph explains that the ability to perceive the astral plane is called "astrap perception" It's not related to physical vision and is a psychic sense, which is known as "the sight" among the awakened.

The second paragraph reads as follows:
QUOTE (SR# p171 Astral Perception 2nd paragraph)
To use astral perception spend a Simple Action to extend your perceptions to the astral plane. This allows you to see anything present in astral space. You can also see glowing auras surrounding living things and magical things and gain information from them using a psychic sixth sense known as assensing. You can touch and interact with astral forms....


That's the clincher here. Astral perception is not a sixth sense, it's the act of extending your perception to the astral plane in a psychic fashion. The sixth sense is the act of assensting, which gives you emotional impressions and the ability to read and even see auras. Assensing is the only thing described as a sixth sense. Astral perception is your existing senses working on the astral.

The way the descriptions go, it makes a whole hell of a lot of sense now that Astral Perception is in fact seeing on the astral. It doesn't have to do with physical vision at all, it applis only astrally. It's how you see the astral shadows of all the objects in the physical world, their shape, size, ect. It's assensing that's the sixth sense that allows you to see and read auras and magical things.

If somehow someone could astrally percieve but not assense he could see all the astral shadows of mundane objects but could not see any auras not magical effects.

Just tossing out another idea here.
Jason Farlander
Wow... for some reason I feel a sense of pride in having instigated this whole discussion, even if it would have existed outside of my having posted.

I will note, though, that noone has convinced anyone of anything, and I predicted that this would happen back on page 1 of this thread.

Its been a wild ride thus far, though...
Apathy
QUOTE
I will note, though, that noone has convinced anyone of anything

To be fair, I have to admit that tjn did get me to correct myself about hearing on the astral.

But other than that, you're right. What is it about human nature that makes us desperately want to get everyone else to interpret things the same way we do, even when there's no chance it'll happen, and when there's no real significance to what we're interpreting anyway?
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