Ok, so say the ballistics are the same... It would still be just as hard to find someone carrying a modified pistol as it would be to find someone carrying a stock one.

[EDIT]Where's the rules that say when you have a custom pistol you have to have custom ammo made for it? If it's 10M, if it helps you, assume you're using the ammo for the Ruger Super Warhawk... a STOCK pistol. You don't have to only fire Ex Ex or APDS.

And by the way, a gun like that WOULD be useful to a lot of other people. Gangers, shadowrunners, corp guys who want a little extra protection, bodyguards... Anyone who normally needs to carry a pistol, really. For what you can get, the price isn't bad, either.

[EDIT] How would it be easier?

You're taking this to a far extreme. Everyone who get a few mods done to their piece isn't going to be shooting some exotic, ultra-rare ammo. If they are, see my post about the neon lights and gold filigree.

2 words: Recoil comp.

As the one touting the awesome powers of ballistics, you should know that the cops will know all the shootings you've been in anyway, AE.

I don't think it makes a GM simple if he decides to not keep track of all the killing you do. Like I've been saying all along, its about the game you play in.

You could have a very complicated GM whose game happens to be street level and takes place exclusively in one of the Barrens. I'd bet that none of the characters in that game would worry about the cops nialing them with forensic evidence.

I always played it as, as long as you don't leave your business card at the scene and remember to have decker erase the footage of your crime, you did a pretty good job. The way I see it, since there are no rules for me to handle this in such a way that evenly distributes the possiblity of getting nabbed, it could easily be construed by my players that I was playing favorites.

Additionaly, not everyone knows as much about this sort of stuff and long time SR players. Since there are no rules that make the players aware of the possiblity of getting caught because they didn't pick up their shells after a gun fight (as there are rules for cleaning your astral signature) its not really fair for me to arbitrarily decide whose doorstep the LS FRT ends up kicking in...unless its part of my plotline.

Ok i got bored half way through page three (hehe) so i don't know if anyone brough this up.

Custom pistol. Someone had to build/design it right? and there are how many people in your choosen city that can do that? The Fuzz would have record's on them no? perhaps ask them?

Cos this still goes beck to, "The Gm will screw you over if their horny" thing again. but a valid point i think.

To be fair, a lot of this conversation depends on the kind of customizations we're talking about.

The gun might be pearl-inlay with grips and platinum engravings, but there aren't any witnesses, the police are going to think it a standard M1911.

If your weapon fires .23 bullets with explosive tips...then yes, that's an uncommon round and will probably get you nailed.

A lot of the "standard" customizations aren't going to raise eyebrows or be detectable in standard forensics investigations - shorter trigger pull, custom grips, extended barrel and so forth effect the shooter and doesn't make noticeable alterations on the bullet as it leaves the barrel.

-Siege

i said this in another thread. Smiley's post brings me to say it again.

magic is not a good reason to simply throw away realism. to play Shadowrun, you obviously have to suspend your disbelief a bit, in order to account for magic. however, if the rest of the game world is realistic, it makes the suspension of disbelief much easier. people play Shadowrun because it's cyberpunk + magic. one of the core elements of cyberpunk is gritty, realistic technical details. you can't just toss realism out of the game, and expect it to not suffer.

Then why not get as riled about the Matrix? It's only been 60 years. Are we supposed to believe electronics technology has advanced to a level that is even more absurd than the concept of universal ammo types? If so, why should firearms technology have stagnated if so many other core aspects of the game setting have made ridiculous advancements in three generations from today?

jesus god lord in heaven, i do get riled up about the Matrix. don't get me started on that monstrous, Gibsonian mockery of all that is right and computable in this world.

This leads me to an interesting thought. What would be the game effects of making your weapon a smoothbore?

No rifling marks, no way to track the gun to it's bullets. Lousy range too, of course. Probably make the gun a lot cheaper to build if you don't rifle the inside.

Coincidentally, what's the point of Machine Pistols? I took a look at getting one recently and realized that with it's hideous Damage code, a burst from it will do about the same damage as one round from a Predator. And given the Magazine size of around 30 rounds, I can only fire 10 bursts from it vs. 15 from the Predator with the same damage code. And as if that wasn't bad enough, the crummy base damage means it can never harm any vehicle or people wearing gel packs on their armor where the Predator can. . .

On one hand, you'd be fine in a court of law. Unfortunately, no one uses smoothbore weapons, so you're basically painting a huge crosshair over yourself for Lone Star detectives. Have fun while it lasts. Your life of crime can be over even if you don't go to prison.

And machine pistols are useless, though some people doggedly maintain that they're good for suppressing, I don't know, birds or something.

Are you asking about machine pistols irl or in the game?

-Siege

Edit: As for why can't a Sig be made full-auto capable, I'm not entirely sure how the specific Glock in question works and why this conversion kit only works with this particular model of Glock.

Ya might want to quiz Ray on the particulars.

you can make Savalettes full-auto. there's a modification in the customization section that turns any burst-fire weapon into FA. mmm, full-auto 9M--assault rifles can sit on it.

Shotguns are smoothbore. Use sabot slugs or flechettes. Range should be limited to about 150-200 meters unless some particularly light, small caliber fin-stabilized slug is used, then you might be able to get another 100-150 meters out of it, considering technology advancements. Shell casings are still foresically identifiable. If anyone starts yapping about caseless shotgun shells, I shall smack them into next month.

Any semi-auto firearm can be made full-auto. It's just a matter of how much work it takes to do so. The Glock full-auto conversion is a drop-in part, takes all of about 5 minutes to install, can be used on any Glock pistol.

Ya know, I want to do that just to watch my GM's expression before he launches the book at my head.

-Siege

in the game, they're only slightly more useful than the light pistols they come from. like i've said before, if i were in charge, i'd errata all firearms to have a minimum damage level of M.

Well, hey, a .22 target pistol's not going to be doing M. Though I definitely understand your point.

not all of them, but some can--those already able to use burst-fire.

and, honestly? i'd give a .22 pistol an M damage code. maybe only 4 power, but M damage. it should not be a simple matter for a normal human to simply ignore being shot with even a .22 pistol--which, as a 4L weapon, they often can.

Ya know, I'd be so much more inclined to believe the 60+ year tech curve if the weapons weren't so fundamentally based on modern tech.

And in some ways inferior to modern tech. Although, that's probably just the game mechanics falling apart.

And let's face it, as weapon systems may improve - a 1944 Thompson will still ruin your day.

-Siege

So will sticks and stones.

Yeah, it's a proven fact that details in weapons make any game boring. Why, I hear no one likes Spycraft. What fools would make such a thing?

Nut, similar weapons firing the same ammo can and do cause different amounts of damage. Muzzle velocity matters. It influances deformation and fragmentation, and determines the total ammount of kenetic energy that the bullet has to dump into its target. Explosive bullets usualy won't work below a minimum muzzle velocity.

If you really believe that, you must have a pretty different level of what you consider detailed. The matrix, rigging, decking, and cyberware all have rules detailed/complicated enough that a lot of groups don't use some of the rules available in their respective supplements even if they're readily available.

The words "complex" and "detailed" mean different things.

no kidding. the combat rules may be complex, but the fact that all firearms of a given class use the same caliber means that it's not very detailed.

Right.

Matrix: What kind of a processor does a Fairlight Excalibur have? Who knows. All we get is an abstract MPCP rating.
Rigging: What kind of an engine does a Eurocar Westwind sport? Who knows. We just get abstract Speed, Acceleration, and Economy ratings.
Decking: What decoding methods does a Decrypt utility use to decode an encrypted datafile? Who knows. We just get an abstract Encryption and Decryption ratings.
Cyberware: How many amps of bioelectricity does an obvious cyberarm use vs. the stress it inflicts on its user? Who knows. All we get is an abstract Essence rating.
Firearms: What caliber ammo does an Ares Predator use? Who knows. We just get an abstract Damage Code and weapon group.
Damage: What kind of a wound did that gunshot create? Who knows. We just get an abstract Wound Level.
Armor: What polymers are used in a Secure Jacket and how are they rated by various government agencies? Who knows. We just get abstract Armor Ratings.

Same difference all around. The entire system revolves around abstract concepts.

You've done it now, Aus. Prepare to suffer the wrath of Abstract Brokenness™.

weapons can fire the same ammo and get very different muzzle velocities
lets talk SMGs, the Steyr AUG 9mm carbine and H&K MP5 have very similar overall lengths.
the MP5 has 8 inches of barrel because the magazine in front of the grip and the AUG has 16 inches of barrel because of it's bullpup configuration. 8 inches means about a 320 feet per second velocity difference (using the standard 40fps per inch estimation), that's about the difference between standard pressure NATO 9mm and .357 SIG or 9x23mm Winchester. on the other end of the spectrum the Tec-9 is available with a 3'' barrel. So we could say that SMG class weapons even if they were all firing 9mm Parabellum could have up to a 520 feet per second difference in velocity, not to mention all the +P and +P+ loadings of 9mm out there (but that's stretching the definition of "same ammunition").

There's also electrothermal-chemical controlled ignition technologies that can boost velocities quite a bit while using the same ammunition.

There's also caseless liquid propellant technologies (one of my favorites, which i'm working into my cyberpunk spycraft setting) which could use a variable amount of propellant from shot to shot. combined with electrothermal tech this could mean your gun could function as a battle rifle or SMG depending on the settings (like the Steyr AUG CSL or the H&K G37). this could also justifiy huge ammunition capacities. fascinating stuff google any or a combination of these terms "liquid propellant" "XM46" "Crusader" "HAN-TEAN"

In some ways i'd prefer that Shadowrun Author's don't mention any specifics about guns because they'd just embarass themselves with more things like the Colt Water Carbine.

Spycraft does too, Modern Arms Guide has inaccurate flavor text but they got the basics right and have a lot more detail than SR

Austere, you misquoted me, Dr. Funkelstein said that. i completely believe that Shadowrun has huge stagnant areas of tech. similar to Cowboy Bebop.

otomik: I think you would agree that an UZI (and likely an Ingram) would have a longer barrel than an MP5-type SMG of the same overall length. Yet the Damage Codes of these weapons are the other way around, even though the HK227s are smaller in overall size than either the UZI or the Ingram.

Not to mention that the Gun Design and Customization rules clearly show that there was never supposed to be a relation between damage caused by firearms and their barrel lengths. Chopping off or lengthening barrels only causes Range to change around here.

I loved how Cyberpunk handled weapons and ammo, but I strongly disliked the weapons themselves. The SR firearms and their abstract (and at times blatantly ubsurd) rules and handling is one of my biggest gripes.

Why do SMG's and pistols use different ammo? Argh.