mfb
Jul 28 2004, 07:47 AM
why do rifles and assault rifles use different skills? aargh!
northern lights
Jul 28 2004, 09:58 AM
well, i think i know. i happen to have fired rifles for a long time. not so assault rifles.
the rifles skill is used with sniper rifles, which fit a rifleman's perspective about right. i know i'm death to small critters to 500 yards easily, but that is with custom stock, fluted floating barrel, scope, prone with tripod or rest, etc.
i'd have no clue what i was doing trying to lay down suppressive fire with an automatic capable weapon.
as well ask why rifles and shotguns use different skills, a much better question.
the only similarity between the two types of rifles is the basic layout of how you hold them or fire them singly. after that, effectively using an assault rifle is very different.
and yes, i have fired several weapons that would be considered assault rifles, but not in a way to be effective in a combat situation.
Odin
Jul 28 2004, 10:04 AM
QUOTE |
why do rifles and assault rifles use different skills? aargh! |
well under second edition everything from pistols to light machine guns came under the firearms skill highly unrealistic ....I like 3rd edition much better.
Arethusa
Jul 28 2004, 01:49 PM
Firearms skills are the only skills in the entire game that are so ludicrously fragmented. Running is not the same as swimming is not the same as gymnastics, but there is the Athletics skill. Sorcery covers practically everything a mage needs to know. Firearms, on the other hand, got broken up for unfathomable reasons. The problem is that a person who's trained with rifles all his life and has skill 8 or 9 will be just as clueless with an assault rifle, LMG, carbine, shotgun, or pistol as someone who's never seen a gun before in his life. This is clearly dumb, and that's basically all there is to it.
As for caseless shotguns, you could conceivably wrap pellets in a propellant block. Would it work? Maybe. Would it work well? No. Would you be an idiot for trying? Yes.
Austere Emancipator
Jul 28 2004, 01:57 PM
The skill-thing has been discussed often enough. Most people will agree that firing
this is not as far removed from firing
this as to warrant a separate skill. Most would agree that as long as using explosives and creating explosives is the same skill, so should firing an AR and a sporting/sniper rifle (or SMG, or shotgun, or LMG) be.
Others think game balance is more important, and firearms skills must be broken down to make sure not everybody rocks with guns. Some look for a middle ground with just a few weapons skills (handguns, long arms, heavy weapons, or something like that). Yet others think all skills should be broken up more. You should do whatever fits your style of gaming best.
Do not be fooled for a moment, though: the current division in Combat Skills is far,
far beyond what happens in Technical or Physical skills, for example, and your only logical reason to break up the Firearms skill (at least beyond the handguns/long arms/heavy weapons) is game balance.
[Edit]What Arethusa said...[/Edit]
mfb
Jul 28 2004, 04:10 PM
a shotgun which uses caseless ammo already exists, in SR. it's called the street sweeper. hurray for high-tech!
Raygun
Jul 28 2004, 07:44 PM
QUOTE (FlakJacket) |
So... How about those caseless shotgun shells? |
*slaps FlakJaket into next month*
QUOTE |
Seriously though, why would this be a problem? From a purely technical standpoint or more simply a fact that no-one would probably bother due to lack of reason/demand? |
Both.
A) If you look at how a shotgun shell is put together, it would be very impractical to develop one without a case. Shotgun shells are multi-part cartridges and the case is what holds everything together. What's more impractical would be the design of the gun to fire it.
B) There would be no other reason to have a caseless shotgun than the lack of forensic evidence, which on its own is not a very good marketing tool. Extremely high ROF is out of the picture, weight savings would be marginal as a plastic shotgun case weighs very little as it is. Third, there are some automatic shotguns that do not discard cases. Using one of those would be far more cost-effective considering the objective.
That's the short version.
*not having the mass necessary to be slapped into the future, Raygun attaches a flux capacitor to the note, sets time circuits to next month, slaps the note+flux capacitor to 88 mph generating the 1.21 gigawatts necessary for the note to travel through time so FlakJacket can read it*
QUOTE (mfb) |
why do rifles and assault rifles use different skills? aargh! |
Because the proper use of an assault rifle combines the skills of a submachine gun and a medium-range rifle, depending on the environment you're fighting in. That's the entire point of the assault rifle. You can use it in either role. With only the Rifle skill you wouldn't be familiar with the use of automatic fire, and with only the SMG skill you wouldn't be familiar with engaging targets at ranges beyond about 150 meters.
QUOTE |
a shotgun which uses caseless ammo already exists, in SR. it's called the street sweeper. hurray for high-tech! |
Especially when it doesn't have to be explained.
tjn
Jul 28 2004, 08:50 PM
QUOTE (Raygun @ Jul 28 2004, 02:44 PM) |
Because the proper use of an assault rifle combines the skills of a submachine gun and a medium-range rifle, depending on the environment you're fighting in. That's the entire point of the assault rifle. You can use it in either role. With only the Rifle skill you wouldn't be familiar with the use of automatic fire, and with only the SMG skill you wouldn't be familiar with engaging targets at ranges beyond about 150 meters. |
But is that equally valid the opposite way? Does knowing Assault Rifles preclude some nuances that either the SMG skill or Rifle cover?
Admittedly, I have fairly weak actual gun experience, but from my experience in airsoft, my perception is that the main difference would be Pistols/CQB weapons vs Shouldered/Field Weapons.
Is there something intrinically different? (Cuz I know in airsoft there's not. AEG's work the same whether SMG or Sniper)
EDIT: Format and Comprehension
Siege
Jul 28 2004, 10:52 PM
I've fired a .22 at range - trying for long distance shots involves different actions than using a SMG at much shorter range.
The Assault Rifle overlaps the SMG's auto fire feature and makes use of the "engaging targets at range" feature of the rifle.
However, as the SMG is designed to function with a much shorter range, the skillset needed to handle it effectively is different from the larger range of the Assault Rifle.
The skills needed to use a Rifle effectively at it's operating range is different again from the skills needed to handle an Assault Rifle.
While there is certainly some overlap in these skills, I think you can make a fairly good case for them being held seperately.
-Siege
kevyn668
Jul 28 2004, 11:21 PM
Which is why its only a slight penalty to default from one skill to another. You can do it, just not as well as you could with the skill you were trained in.
Raygun
Jul 29 2004, 12:13 AM
Exactly.
Person 404
Jul 29 2004, 12:21 AM
Well, unless it's a hard shot. In which case you can't do it at all.
mfb
Jul 29 2004, 12:45 AM
not really. if i pick up an M-16 and fire it in single-shot mode, i use the assault rifle skill. if i pick up a Bushmaster, i use the rifle skill. but these are effectively the same weapon. now, if you want to make an "autofire" skill, or something, okay--i can see that, that makes sense. but making someone use a completely different skill just because a weapon has the option of autofire makes no sense.
kevyn668
Jul 29 2004, 01:25 AM
You know what? I've been playing SR since it came out in '89 and I had always had a big problem with how the Firearms skill had been broken up but after I read Seige's explanation of it, well, damn if it didn't suddenly seem easier to swallow.
So, thank you Siege for clearing it up.
kevyn668
Jul 29 2004, 01:27 AM
QUOTE (Person 404) |
Well, unless it's a hard shot. In which case you can't do it at all. |
Which makes sense.
BitBasher
Jul 29 2004, 01:34 AM
QUOTE (mfb) |
not really. if i pick up an M-16 and fire it in single-shot mode, i use the assault rifle skill. if i pick up a Bushmaster, i use the rifle skill. but these are effectively the same weapon. now, if you want to make an "autofire" skill, or something, okay--i can see that, that makes sense. but making someone use a completely different skill just because a weapon has the option of autofire makes no sense. |
That's kind of an odd statement. Bushmaster is a manufacturer, not a make of rifle, and M-16 is a make of rifle not a manufacturer. Bushmaster makes AR-15s and AR10s in several variants. The a2 variants look and function like a SA m-16 and should use the Assault Rifle Skill while the A3 variant has no carry handle or iron sights and is meant for use with a scope, which should use the Rifle skill. That's not counting there .338 and .50bmg rifles which should definitely use the rifle skill.
The m-16/AR-15 and it's clones alone could have been made by several companies... Bushmaster is one of them, along with Armalite, (and it's subsidiary Eagle Arms) Cougar, Colt, ect...
Incidentally I like Bushmaster, but they tend to be the most expensive I've seen.
mfb
Jul 29 2004, 01:34 AM
but it doesn't. in SR, you use different skills for what is effectively the same weapon, simply because one of them has an aftermarket kit that turns it into an automatic weapon--and you use the different skill whether you're using the autofire function or not!
edit: i was referring to the civilian Bushmaster AR-15 clone. don't recall what it's called.
kevyn668
Jul 29 2004, 01:43 AM
So take it case by case w/ your GM.
It seems like the skill is a representation of three factors: 1)Range of engagement, 2)Rate of fire, and to a lesser degree 3)Weapon Frame.
Much like the American Judicial System, its not perfect but it works well enough.
BitBasher
Jul 29 2004, 01:44 AM
QUOTE (mfb) |
edit: i was referring to the civilian Bushmaster AR-15 clone. don't recall what it's called. |
That would be the
Bushmaster A2 And actually I do make players use the rifle skills if they have one decked out for sniping long range, ect.
mfb
Jul 29 2004, 01:49 AM
well, it works well enough if you're either unfamiliar with firearms, or are willing to suspend your disbelief further than usual.
i mean, look at it this way--if the difference between rifle and AR lies in the autofire, then why isn't there a Machine Pistol skill?
kevyn668
Jul 29 2004, 01:55 AM
QUOTE (mfb) |
well, it works well enough if you're either unfamiliar with firearms, or are willing to suspend your disbelief further than usual.
i mean, look at it this way--if the difference between rifle and AR lies in the autofire, then why isn't there a Machine Pistol skill? |
Because then the SR3 Archetype Combat Decker wouldn't be able to use the Ceska Black Scorpion. Duh.
Austere Emancipator
Jul 29 2004, 04:03 AM
QUOTE (Siege) |
While there is certainly some overlap in these skills, I think you can make a fairly good case for them being held seperately. |
If there were no non-combat skills in the game when deciding on whether to separate AR from Rifles, certainly. But the point is, you've already got such widely applicable skills as Athletics, Sorcery, Electronics, Biotech, Demolitioncs, etc. You could easily find several applications for each of those skills that are at least as different from each other as using ARs effectively is from using sporting/sniping rifles effectively. Yet those are all the same skill, while Long Arms (or Firearms) is not.
Why? Because of game balance. And I can tell you from personal experience that reducing the number of firearm skills to less than half won't cause a significant shift in game balance.
I have a feeling that if there were as many Demolitions-enthusiasts as there were gun-enthusiasts on this board, there'd be much more house ruling going on to have at least 3 different Demolitions-skills. If there were plenty of sport enthusiasts, it'd be the Athletics skill that'd be separated, while still all the others'd stay the same. I don't want to fall into that sort of trap. The game system clearly supports much "wider" skills than some of the Combat skills currently are.
Raygun
Jul 29 2004, 04:07 AM
QUOTE (mfb) |
not really. if i pick up an M-16 and fire it in single-shot mode, i use the assault rifle skill. if i pick up a Bushmaster, i use the rifle skill. but these are effectively the same weapon. |
In this case, it shouldn't matter if they're effectively the same weapon with the same manual of arms. What matters is the role you're using the weapon in.
This is a judgement call. Your GM should consider allowing you which skill to use dependent upon the situation. If you're using an AR15 in the rifle role, you should have the option of using either the Assault Rifle skill or Rifle skill without penalty. If you're using an M16 in the SMG role (in BF/FA modes), you should have the option of using the Assault Rifle skill, or the Submachine Gun skill at default penalty.
QUOTE (mfb) |
now, if you want to make an "autofire" skill, or something, okay--i can see that, that makes sense. but making someone use a completely different skill just because a weapon has the option of autofire makes no sense. |
Again, the determining factor is the role of the weapon, not the weapon itself. The Assault Rifle skill covers all the bases when using an assault rifle. SMG skill does not, Rifle skill does not.
QUOTE |
well, it works well enough if you're either unfamiliar with firearms, or are willing to suspend your disbelief further than usual. |
I'm pretty familiar with these types of firearms and I really don't think I have to suspend much disbelief to use skills in the way I've described.
QUOTE |
i mean, look at it this way--if the difference between rifle and AR lies in the autofire, then why isn't there a Machine Pistol skill? |
Shortsightedness would be my guess. There should be a Machine Pistols skill. I do suggest that if you are going to use the Assault Rifles skill, you create a Machine Pistols skill and use it separately from the Pistols skill, defaulting if necessary (again dependent upon the role you're using the weapon in), for the sake of consistency. The use of machine pistols differs quite substantially from both semi-auto pistols and shoulder-fired submachine guns.
There are a lot of these kinds of innaccuracies in SR's firearm rules. You can fix them any way you want. My intent here is to explain why the Assault Rifle skill exists separately from the Rifles skill. If you don't like it, you most certainly can change it to reflect the way you'd rather play the game (for example omitting it all together, or rearranging the skills by having a Handguns skill, a Rifles skill, An Automatic Handguns skill, an Automatic Rifles skill, a Machine Guns skill, etc...). It's all up to you and your group.
mfb
Jul 29 2004, 04:13 AM
addendum, then--they work fine if:
a) you're unfamiliar with firearms;
b) you're willing to suspend your disbelief further than usual;
c) you fix them!
Raygun
Jul 29 2004, 04:23 AM
I guess my fix is to add a Machine Pistols skill.
Siege
Jul 29 2004, 04:25 AM
Aust: Don't even get me started on the combining of "Etiquette" as a general skill.
As we are well aware, the SR skill set is not an even representation with the same guiding principle applied throughout. Look at the technical skills for pity's sake. Biotech covers a hell of a lot for just one skill.
So your short answer is right - game balance. What skills get snatched up first? Combat skills.
My justification just happened to be one several possible answers that seemed to click with a couple of people. (Thanks Kev.
)
Mfb: why not machine pistol skill?
Because the shortened range and effective distance still renders it within the realm of a handgun. It's a handgun with a nifty rather than an entirely new weapon like a SMG - which is a pistol but with more toys, better frame and an entirely new effective range, whether or not the shooter opts for SS or BF or FA modes.
@Seperate skills with each weapon?
Sure, why not? If any player actually re-assembled the Steyer AUG into a rifle or SMG format, my GM wouldn't have any problems requiring the player to use the relevant skill for the new configuration.
However, flicking the AR into single-shot mode and using it in a sniper capacity doesn't alter the basic function of the weapon; the shooter just isn't using all of the possible options of the weapon.
How's that for tap-dancing?
-Siege
mfb
Jul 29 2004, 04:31 AM
well, and to use the Rifle skill when you're using semi-auto. that's what it seems like you're saying, at any rate, unless i misunderstand.
Siege
Jul 29 2004, 04:43 AM
Or I explained it badly.
Handgun - short range, specific weapon design and how to best use fire modes available to the weapon: SS, SA, BF.
SMG - longer range, specific weapon design and how to best use the fire modes available to the weapon: all of the above, plus FA.
AR - longer range still, specific weapon design and well, you know.
Rifle - longest range possible of small arms, specific weapon design and how to best use - etc.
The dynamics involved in shooting a handgun - holding the weapon, adjusting for recoil, etc. are different from the principles involved in shooting a SMG and different again from shooting an AR.
Each weapon uses some of the same principles, but not enough to make an absolutely seamless transition from one to the other. Could an infantry grunt use an Olympic marksman's rifle? Probably. As well as a deer hunter could? Probably not.
The shooter using a handgun in whatever fire mode (SS, SA, BF) is going to be using different techniques from the SMG user who in turn will use different techniques from the AR user.
-Siege
Fygg Nuuton
Jul 29 2004, 05:21 AM
also alot of assault rifles use a grip and a stock, wheres as many rifles use a grip/stock combo thinger (technical term)
some sniper rifles use assault rifleish designs, those are usually mutated from assault rifle designs though, they obviously differ from an AR (long range, scope, semi-auto)
submachineguns are usually shorter than an assault rifle, and use pistol-type ammunition.
99.99% of all pistols use a pistol grip
tjn
Jul 29 2004, 05:40 AM
Appearently I wasn't as clear as I could have been.
QUOTE (Raygun) |
Again, the determining factor is the role of the weapon, not the weapon itself. The Assault Rifle skill covers all the bases when using an assault rifle. SMG skill does not, Rifle skill does not. |
Okay, let me ask again. What bases, or role, does the Rifle skill cover that Assault Rifles do not? I can see the seperation of Assault Rifles from Rifles, but the reverse does not click with me. For everything Rifle covers, it seems Assault Rifles covers as well in addition to the other roles that you've detailed.
One states the operating range of a Rifle requires a different skill then using an Assault Rifle. What are these skills that differ?
QUOTE (Siege) |
Mfb: why not machine pistol skill?
Because the shortened range and effective distance still renders it within the realm of a handgun. It's a handgun with a nifty rather than an entirely new weapon like a SMG - which is a pistol but with more toys, better frame and an entirely new effective range, whether or not the shooter opts for SS or BF or FA modes. |
That exact arguement can be used to combine Assault Rifles and normal Rifles. Like Raygun's said, if we're going to seperate Assault Rifles and Rifles, we should do it to Machine Pistols too.
BitBasher
Jul 29 2004, 05:51 AM
QUOTE |
One states the operating range of a Rifle requires a different skill then using an Assault Rifle. What are these skills that differ? |
Well, off of memory most assault rifle battles take place under 200 yards.. well under 200 yards if memory serves. Sniper rifles can expect to hit targets beyond 800 yards. Far beyond in some cases.
Assault Rifles are designed to be aimed and fired faster. while many rifles are bolt action and require longer to aim.
The differences in those distances can be dramatic too, bullet flight time can become very measurable and the lead distance on moving targets can be extreme. Single shots are far more important due to their slow firing speed.being able to calculate bullet drop and windage is far, far more important at those ranges.
in short, lots of differences.
tjn
Jul 29 2004, 06:11 AM
Most, some, many...
These words you use imply that the two "different" weapons could be used in simular roles.
Knowing how bullet drop, windage, and expected travel time effect one's aiming is applicable to all shooting, even if more important to engagements at longer ranges.
Personally I lean towards a matrix of possibilities, that reflect the role in which it's used more then the physical dimensions of the gun... however where I always get stuck is implemtation. I don't want to create more skills due to the breadth of other skills, but I also don't want to create a single "firearms" skill for play balance purposes.
Shouldered or Pistol grip
Firing Modes
Expected Range of Engagement
Currently toying with a kind of "mini-skills" that are added together as the skill in use... but combat's already too complicated for some of my players (which is something else entirely).
Raygun
Jul 29 2004, 07:14 AM
QUOTE (tjn) |
Appearently I wasn't as clear as I could have been.
Okay, let me ask again. What bases, or role, does the Rifle skill cover that Assault Rifles do not? I can see the seperation of Assault Rifles from Rifles, but the reverse does not click with me. For everything Rifle covers, it seems Assault Rifles covers as well in addition to the other roles that you've detailed. |
The ability to engage targets beyond the range at which assault rifles are designed to be used. The extreme range of a sniper rifle is almost double that of an assault rifle per SR rules. In reality, some sniper rifles are capable of engaging targets well beyond that range. The longest range confirmed kill with a small arm I can think of took place at
2,430 meters (1.5 miles). It takes much more specialized knowledge in ballistics, optics, meteorology, etc... to consistently hit human-sized targets that far out.
Using all kinds of manually-operated rifles. All assault rifles are select-fire automatic firearms, period. None are manually operated. There isn't a lot you need to know about this sort of thing, but if all you've ever fired were assault rifles, it would take some getting used to the nuances of bolt actions, lever actions, pump actions, etc... to use them quickly and efficiently in combat.
The minutae in dealing with heavier recoil. Assault rifles are designed to fire cartridges that are particularly light-recoiling so that the rifle can be used effectively in the submachine gun role. The differences between using a 5.56x45mm assault rifle and a .300 Winchester Magnum bolt action are pretty huge, not to mention a .50 BMG sniper rifle. Recoil management is a very important thing to learn when you get up into heavier rifles, like some sport and sniper rifles. You aren't going to learn that playing with assault rifles.
Just a few things that come to mind.
hyzmarca
Jul 29 2004, 08:02 AM
QUOTE (tjn) |
Shouldered or Pistol grip Firing Modes Expected Range of Engagement
Currently toying with a kind of "mini-skills" that are added together as the skill in use... but combat's already too complicated for some of my players (which is something else entirely). |
To avoid complication, perhaps reducing TN penalities for dfaulting to similar weapons skills would be better.
Siege
Jul 29 2004, 12:44 PM
I think Ray summed up quite nicely what I was trying to say regarding rifles and ARs.
As to the pistol/machine pistol, I disagree. You are still dealing with a short-range weapon of this basic configuration and the skills (i.e. manual dexterity, hand-eye coordination, target acquisition, sighting, adjusting for recoil, etc.) needed to use the burst capability are not so radically different from the more conventional SS/SA modes currently available on SR handguns.
Any better and you have an SMG - which does require it's own skill.
-Siege
Austere Emancipator
Jul 29 2004, 02:20 PM
I think it's totally pointless to discuss whether using assault rifles is different from using rifles. Of course it is. That's why Rifle |= Assault Rifle. If the weapons are different in even the slightest detail, then using them will work differently.
The point is to discuss whether those differences are large enough to warrant separate skills in the Shadowrun system, compared to how other skills have been separated. For example, is firing Rifles as clearly distinguished from firing Assault Rifles as the Computer skill is from Electronics? Is it as difficult to go from firing an AR to firing a SMG as it is to go from driving a motorcycle to driving a sedan?
My answer is: absolutely not. I didn't notice any problems with recoil (or indeed notice any recoil) going from the 7.62x39mm RK62 to the 7.62x54mmR TaKi-85 or the 12G 2-3/4" Remington M870. The difference in grips is totally insignificant. The firing positions and techniques (apart from how to cycle the actions) had already been taught in detail with the RK. I do not think cycling the action is a very important of the weapon skill, however.
We'd already been trained how to take wind conditions into account with the RKs, as well as proper breathing techniques, how to brace the weapon, finding good firing positions, camoflaging, etc. Similarly we'd been trained to do MOUT and CQB with the ARs.
The differences do include the situations where the weapons would be employed, like Raygun explained. The 300 meters I fired the TaKi-85 (Sniper Rifle-85) at was around the extreme effective range of the RK-62, yet a very short range for the TaKi. MOUT and CQB would be the only thing we'd ever carry shotguns for.
So there are huge amounts of overlap with the different long arms. Not total overlap, that's why the different weapons have got different names. But enough for me to consider them to be far closer to each other than any other separated skills. And since I've never noticed any negative game balance effect from combining many of the Combat skills, I've never come across any reason not to. Thus I keep them combined.
Arethusa
Jul 29 2004, 03:06 PM
And, again, I really must emphasize that many of you conveniently ignore the fact that no other Shadowrun skill set sees this level of division. Just look at Athletics, Sorcery, Biotech, Demolitions, or practically anything else.
BitBasher
Jul 29 2004, 03:55 PM
QUOTE (Arethusa) |
And, again, I really must emphasize that many of you conveniently ignore the fact that no other Shadowrun skill set sees this level of division. Just look at Athletics, Sorcery, Biotech, Demolitions, or practically anything else. |
That's because we already adressed that the reason combat skills were divided up was purely play balance, and I dont think anyone disagreed with that.
Siege
Jul 29 2004, 03:56 PM
We are hardly ignoring it.
I'll be one of the first to admit that the SR skill set is not consistent in its approach and handling of skills.
As Aust pointed out before, Firearms is split into seperate skills while Demolitions, Athletics, Etiquette, Electronics, Biotech, etc. are not.
And he makes a very good point as to why that happens -> game balance. What skills are grabbed first? Mostly a rhetorical question, but combat skills lead the pack.
Now, if you really want to re-write the SR skill system, knock yourself out. Most people just opt to houserule the bigger parts that bug them and ignore the glitches that don't bother them.
-Siege
Austere Emancipator
Jul 29 2004, 04:13 PM
QUOTE (BitBasher) |
That's because we already adressed that the reason combat skills were divided up was purely play balance, and I dont think anyone disagreed with that. |
In that case, no worries. However, I suggest you try a slightly less divided firearms-skillset sometime, just to see if it doesn't screw the balance in your games. If it doesn't, it's pretty nifty.
BitBasher
Jul 29 2004, 04:19 PM
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
QUOTE (BitBasher) | That's because we already adressed that the reason combat skills were divided up was purely play balance, and I dont think anyone disagreed with that. |
In that case, no worries. However, I suggest you try a slightly less divided firearms-skillset sometime, just to see if it doesn't screw the balance in your games. If it doesn't, it's pretty nifty.
|
Actually I have. It lead to less diversity among players. It led to somewhat less unique character, and neither me not my players felt that it really added anything useful to the game. That being said, we also dont think it detracted terribly from the game and ultimately we ended up somewhat neutral. Being somewhat neutral we felt the change was unnecessary as it was changing canon for no appreciatiable positive result.
IMHO diversity is a good thing, but YMMV.
Austere Emancipator
Jul 29 2004, 04:30 PM
I don't mind diversity. Ours views differ in what kind of diversity we want, apparently. I don't need the kind of diversity that springs from the forced specialization brought forward by a large number of separate weapon skills. Just like I don't need the kind of diversity that separating the Sorcery skill by spell category would undoubtedly cause. I wouldn't mind having very, very few stats to describe characters, if such a game would somehow manage to handle most situations in sufficient detail.
w8n4s8n
Jul 29 2004, 10:41 PM
So how would you generalize the skills? What makes more sense?
Handguns (Light/Heavy Pistols, Machine Pistols)
Rifles (Submachine Guns, Assault Rifles, Sport Rifles, Sniper Rifles)
Heavy Weapons (Light/Medium/Heavy Machine Guns, Assault Cannons)
Shotguns
That kind of thing?
Arethusa
Jul 29 2004, 11:05 PM
Short Arms (pistols and one handed SMGs)
Long Arms (SMGs, assault rifles, sniper rifles, shotguns, etc)
Heavy Weapons (machineguns, etc)
There's some swapping around that can be done, of course. Handling an M249 is not exactly all that far removed from handling a rifle, so you may want to put man portable machineguns in Long Arms. Regardless, those three divisions are basically as sensible as it gets.
BitBasher
Jul 29 2004, 11:18 PM
just remember sensible and balanced are not always the same thing.
Austere Emancipator
Jul 30 2004, 04:08 AM
QUOTE (Arethusa) |
Handling an M249 is not exactly all that far removed from handling a rifle, so you may want to put man portable machineguns in Long Arms. |
And many other LMGs are yet much closer to AR in how they're handled. The principles of firing MGs from an unsupported position or with a bipod are the same as with firing an AR, which is why I strongly believe all MGs, or least LMGs, fired without a heavy mount or a tripod should be considered Long Arms in that kind of skill division.
otomik
Jul 30 2004, 05:40 AM
very similar to what arethusa just described, the spycraft firearms weapons proficiencies are
Handguns (things with a pistol grip that can be fired one handed)
Rifles (things that you put up against your shoulder to fire properly)
Tactical Weapons (stuff you probably don't know how to use unless you have military training, battle field impliments like mortars and belt-fed stuff generally)