Hi. I am playing a hermetic mage and want to have his Sorcery library level 6 on a computer. The SR source book 167 states that a level6 library would take 36,000 Mp to store (rating * rating * 1,000 Mp).

If I am getting a desktop computer to hold this information then what rating of a computer do I need.

How do you calculate storage space on for a computer that is not a deck??

I starting doing for math on this and the numbers started getting above 500,000 nuyen for 36,000 Mp memory cost. Is this right??

I hope not because I have two other libraries I need to store on a computer as well(total of three libraries) at level 6 rating. That would mean a 1+ million computer system.

Thanks for the help.

[Edit]Teaches me to RTFM.[/Edit]

Size is (rating *rating * 100MP). Cost is (rating * rating * 1000 ) Whole different ballgame there. Plus, the library comes on chip or in a book, your choice so the basic cost includes a format. Keeping it on your computer costs 20 an MP.

So, assuming I want the library in chip form a rating level 6 library would have a file size of 3600 Mp (6*6*100 Mp) and cost 72000 nuyen in memory(20*3600 Mp).

Is this correct?? This seems high to me.

3600 MP requires a computer with 3600 MP only if you do not want to use the chips. Otherwise, any computer will do. Yes, the cost of computers is insane in SR. You can in theory have it all on one* chip and, assuming that is a copy of the library, the chip would cost 1,800 nuyen. *You may need four chips to hold all the data if the chips are capped at 1000MP (cannot remember), in which case get a computer with four slots. Personally I think they should errata the computer cost to 2 nuyen per MP since they divided by 10 with the chips.

I hadn't realized how insane the computer costs were until I was helping my girlfriend make a rigger and realized that the lowest-cost deck was a more economical way to store recorded footage than a pocket computer of equal storage.

I'm still inwardly praying that I screwed up in those calculations.

~J

Of course, ten-fifteen years ago, all these prices were perfectlhy reasonable. I do remember the times when buying 2 MB of memory cost me $400, and a 200MB hard drive was almost $1,000 and that was only 1994-ish. That is the era from whence come the computer prices in this game. The computer chip glut of the late 90's changed this, but the computer prices were never altered.

I still remember when someone three years younger than me tried to guess the size of my first hard drive. He guessed a gigabyte.

*Pats the 156 megabyte drive he filled with Civilization saved games*

That's not counting the hard-driveless Mac Classic…

~J

I never understood why a library would take up so much memory? They're text files. Let's say they're images even. We're talking about storage memory sixty years more advaned. Storage for a few throusand books should be cheap, not expensive.

It's not hard to guess. a Hermetic's physical library takes up X cubic meters. What is the bulk of the value of that? Text, images, diagrams, maybe a small sculpture as a pneumonic device. That's what, maybe a million pages of data? I have 459 books in my bedroom, (I cleaned throroughly the other day, and I counted). They cover four seperate bookshelves, stacked two deep. They average 500 pages or so apeice. That's only 229,500 pages. Books average 200-300 words, especially paperbacks, which most of mine are. That's only 57,375,000 words. I'm supposed to belive that's a few dozen megapulses?

Oh, the information within is valuable, but why is the storage medium so costly? Look at Cds, I can burn a CD with 700+ megabytes of data for pennies apeice.

This isn't really a new issue. I've made my suggestion in this thread, and others have made theirs in previous. If you'd like to make a topic and/or suggest an improvment, that'd be great.

Personally, I like dividing the memory costs by ten, and then it's really a non-issue to me.

Well, why not makes the storage medium free? If you go to your local talismonger's shop, the choice between chip and hardcopy should be about as meaningful as the choice between paper or plastic at the grocery checkout lane. I'm sure the talismonger would rather not store hundreds of pounds of books. giving you a break for buying chips means they don't have to bother with wharehousing issues.

Well, it is free. The cost of the library includes the storage of chip or book. The original poster just wanted it all on one computer, not chip or paperback. SR computer memory is generally considered overpriced. Also, I doubt the local talismonger has anything above rating 2 in store.

Yeah, ditto there. this is what I get for letting my players borrow my core book for months on end.

Thanks for the input everyone.

So, what computer equipment do I need then to view a hermetic library on computer chip format or where do I look in a sourcbook for pricing information for the equipment??

I had assumed I needed 3600 Mp memory on a computer in order to view/use the library by computer. I take it that this is not the case.

The only place I place I saw for offline storage was in the Matrix Sourcebook for cyberdecks.
Where should I look for this information??

Thanks again.

SR3 page 304 has off-line storage; it can work with any computer. I think you need only 100MP computer to view the files, personally (talk with your GM). But I suggest a printer and maybe multiple displays.

[edit] McMakie's GM View DAT is sweet, BTW.

Your computer doesn't have to have any memory at all the view the library if it on a chip, just a chip port. Since a desk top is bought only as memory, you have to figure the cost of the monitor, key board, etc is already figured in. For the library, anything that can display chips, (pocket sec, simsense deck, cyberdeck) and has a monitor of some type (personal telecom, headware w/image link, electronic suite in rigger van) can be used if you are doing research on the go. Hell, a chipjack with image link allows you to watch it at your leisure. It is only sold in book form for those who like a retro feel.

Pocket secretary is a nice choice. The cost of 100MP of palmtop computing with some other features thrown in at no extra cost.

And for the record, I had a 2MB, then upgraded to a whopping 8MB to go with my 300 Baud modem.

the way i view sr chip storage is a kind of computer on a chip. think back to the days of 8 and 16 bit nintendo and sega machines. before the cd-rom became popular for games. those days anything shiped on chips and was slotted into the main box. many of the later 16-bit nintendo games had special chips in those "casettes" to pull of new stunts. think of it like haveing the executable stored in nonvolatile ram, cut the power and the chips just stops there and when power is reapplyed it will resume where it ended (or be reset, maybe best in case of a crash). data isnt loaded into memory before being searched, the storage media is optical and probably more similar to ram then rom. only thing the computer needs is a bit of space to store variables and so on for when the "app" is in use. no need for a special pdf app to read that format of files. every pdf file comes wraped in its own reader. data and app is no longer seperate, in many ways its MPAA/RIAA's wet dream as it allows for very tight content control.

there was talk about the us goverment buying huge "ram" drives when the terrorist hunt was hot. basicly they where normal hardrives wrapped in ram so that the whole content of the drive (most likely a database) was loaded into that ram. then you dont have to overload the computers own ram with working with that database and can most likely speed up searches a lot as you remove the load time.

the reason for ram these days is that the storage medium isnt so fast that the cpu can request information straight of it. just watch how your computer slows down when it have to swap stuff into or out of virtual memory (basicly a area of the hd the os accesses as if its a kind of ram, be it a special file or a precreated partition). computers of tomorow will be more like mobiles. instant on and ready to go to work. the only reason a java app on a cellphone have to load is that java apps are stored in independent bytecode rather then native binary of the individual phones cpu and therefor have to be translated. and even that prosess is quicker then a normal computer loading a application. pick up a smartphone and look how fast it can fire up a installed app and then dream about that as a full size desktop computer.

as for why there is active memory in a cyberdeck? gamebalance. in effect you may as well be useing all the apps at any time without needing to swap memory all the time. doing programing only need storage to hold the code your working on. ok so maybe its a safety design carryed over from the virus battles. atleast VR2 and later eliminated the internal loadtimes (now all you have to care about is uploading the icon part to the host your interacting with).

Datajacks are cheap and easy. Most hermetics would probably have one.

~J

Given the amount of power and knowledge available to a mage from a quickly-searchable library, the one magic point or associated geas is paltry.

~J

What's wrong with a trode rig? And secondly, why would ASIST be needed to search a libary? A PC can access the Matrix, it just can't do the simsense.

If a Mermetic mage is dumb enough to buy his libraries at chargen, he probably has resources B or something like. With that kind of cash you've got plenty left over for some other useful 'ware other than just a datajack, like artwinkulation, Boosted 1, a trauma dampener, plastic bone lacing, etc. The dj is just there to round out the 1.00 Essence of cyberware, which will probably be geased off.

But really there's no reason a trode rig won't work, just as there's no reason to buy the libraries at chargen anyway. Well, maybe the bonjuring library....

Keep in mind that I'm arguing for mages in general having datajacks, not for PC mages to take them at chargen. Trode rigs are inconvenient and give a kludgy feel to things, you know? And searchable is the wrong term.

~J

Heh, okay, from a roleplaying standpoint then. Datajacks are convenient; they're almost required for most middle-class people. Without one you're as technologically crippled as you are without an internet connection today; sure you can get by without it, but you're really missing something. It's a one-time investment of 20-100% of one month's rent to have one installed, which is pretty damn cheap considering how much people spend on their computers today.

A trode rig that looks like a baseball hat that doesn't infringe on your connection to the ecstacy of magical power, with promises of wireless connections in a few months to years... Yeah, I don't need to think twice about it. If half the SIN population can't be bothered to get a datajack, I don't see more than half the hermetics getting one.

The ecstasy of magical power comes from knowledge. What are you, some kind of shamanist?

~J

I totally disagree. As a hermetic, I'd consider lossing Essence comparable to having your member cut off and geasa being required to use a pump to get it up.

And yes, that's totally just my opinion.

thats delightful, Kanada...thats the image I want in my head right before I go to bed.

And I'd consider a datajack to be a Mr. Studd implant.

~J

And what are the benefits of a datajack compared to a wireless trode rig?

First off, the wireless bit doesn't exist yet. Second, no fiddling with nets and soforth or getting it out of alignment. Third, better responsiveness out of the interface.

Fourth, ability to easily use for other things like driving cars.

~J

And that overweighs having a barrier between you and magic? I don't see anywhere near half hermetics agreeing with you. Plus there is a chance of losing more magic if the doctor has an accident. The wireless part doesn't exist for datajacks either so you still must fiddle with wires.

[edit] I don't even think cars come standard with a datajack port. Do most people even drive their cars? I would think AutoNAV is the wave of the future.

@Kanada Ten
The Limit of 1.000Mp per chip was in the Shadowbeat-SB

Hey, K-10, could you please point out the relevant passages in the descriptions of shamanic and hermetic approaches to magic that imply that hermetics as a whole are more power-hungry than shamans?