Full Version: Computers and Memory/storage question
| QUOTE (Botch) |
| Can you see the problems with memory in SR yet? |
Problems? No. Unrealistic? Yes.
SR is, by nature, abstract. We've all wrestled with it and come to terms with it one way or another. How SR handles memory hasn't managed to grind my campaigns to a halt, it does what it needs to do.
| QUOTE (Botch @ Sep 30 2004, 12:12 PM) |
| For the earlier post it can be seen that uncompressed sound requires 9.46MB/minute compared to 428.44MB/minute for MPEG-4 compressed video. |
There’s no way that’s correct. DV is about 210 megs/minute, or some 25 megabits per second, while MPEG-4 is designed to go up to about 4 megabits/second.
~J
At what resolution/zoom are you talking about, think carefully?
Currently no digital system is capable of producing a 20x digital zoom without having a very low base resolution.
Currently no digital system is capable of producing a 20x digital zoom without having a very low base resolution.
| QUOTE |
| There’s no way that’s correct. DV is about 210 megs/minute, or some 25 megabits per second, while MPEG-4 is designed to go up to about 4 megabits/second. |
The pentax camera exampled does have a record rate that fits within your figures, if a base resolution of 640x480 at 30fps and no digital zoom are used. A limit imposed by current digital recording technology. By using MPEG-4 compression ratios and increasing the max record rate I maintain a much larger size of MP in MB terms. If I did not use the MPEG-4 compression ratios OMCs and MP useage are so fundamentally broken, that I cannot think of an euphamism to describe it.
1) Interpolating the increased memory requirements of a static image of 640x480 with a 10x digital, we can establish the memory cost of 20x zoom on a base resolution of 640x480. The 10x, 6.25x, and 2.5x zoom memory requirements can be taken directly from the pentax website.
2) A base resolution of 640x480 cannot be considered hi-res, the bare minimum would have to be a base resolution of 1024x768. Again, because we are dealing with digital image frames the additional memory cost of increasing the base resolution from 640x480 to 1024x768 can be taken directly from the pentax website. The memory cost multiplier for 20x digital zoom worked out in step one can be applied to the memory requirements for 1024x768@30fps, giving an accurate memory usage IF CURRENT DIGITAL RECORDING COULD RECORD AT THAT RESOLUTION IN REAL-TIME.
In answer there should be no need to directly compare MB and MP, but there are comparisons to be drawn. We know how much memory different types of recordings use in ratio to each other and shouldn't be out by a factor of around 60,000 not matter what is actually used as storage.
| QUOTE |
| Problems? No. Unrealistic? Yes. SR is, by nature, abstract. We've all wrestled with it and come to terms with it one way or another. How SR handles memory hasn't managed to grind my campaigns to a halt, it does what it needs to do. |
You have no problems with survelliance equipment, drone feeds, remote cameras, illegal/covert audio recording, digitization of hardcopy (libraries), mission videos, data-theft costing 1,000-10,000 times too much for their memory components? You'd scream if the cost of a gun went by a factor of 10, but it probably wouldn't wreck your campaign either.
I don't know about you but data is used much more in our games than guns are fired. The problem is that memory costs only put a hole in the runners wallet, not their bodies so it is glossed over. Magic, cyber and damage have all been overhauled and none of those sections where as badly out of whack as memory costs. If your pistol cost 15,000
or your assault cannon did 2L damage, or a force 6 spell and 3 levels of initiation only allowed you to light a cigarette you'd notice.With the most generous of comparisons baseline should use 180,000 times the amount of memory that a normal frequency audio track does, not the 60x factor used in SR.
| QUOTE (Botch) |
| You have no problems with survelliance equipment, drone feeds, remote cameras, illegal/covert audio recording, digitization of hardcopy (libraries), mission videos, data-theft costing 1,000-10,000 times too much for their memory components? You'd scream if the cost of a gun went by a factor of 10, but it probably wouldn't wreck your campaign either. |
I don't think anyone is doubting it's broken, but for my world, it's not really an issue.
My suggestion is to house rule it so you and your players are comfortable.
| QUOTE (Botch @ Sep 30 2004, 01:11 PM) |
| 2) A base resolution of 640x480 cannot be considered hi-res, the bare minimum would have to be a base resolution of 1024x768. Again, because we are dealing with digital image frames the additional memory cost of increasing the base resolution from 640x480 to 1024x768 can be taken directly from the pentax website. The memory cost multiplier for 20x digital zoom worked out in step one can be applied to the memory requirements for 1024x768@30fps, giving an accurate memory usage IF CURRENT DIGITAL RECORDING COULD RECORD AT THAT RESOLUTION IN REAL-TIME. |
Even 16-VSB only gives ~38 megabits per second, still well under your estimate for a compressed (!) video format.
Edit: Here we go, ~160 megabytes/second for uncompressed 1080 24p or similar formats. I still say your number is silly for compressed stuff, though.
~J
The only problem I see is the attempts to compare RL with game mechanics. It's pretty pointless, and even more so if you don't even bother to suggest a solution like those who complain about firearms, martial arts, and everything else. Personally, I divide the memory cost by 10 for most devices, and it seems to work for my brain.
The opti cam stores 60 still fames per MP. Video is at 1 min per MP. This would suggest 60 frames per min (unlikely) or another discrepancy in real time compression rates. (both these file sizes are based on implanted cyber wear without any cleaning up or post production compression.
Just what fine tuning can you do on these 1MP/min audio fifes anyway. I haven’t seen any rules for select sound after recording or similar.
For the purpose of realism I would choose video at 20* zoom to be 1MP/min including an audio stream. This is the arbitrary point.
2d images of the same quality are 1500 images per MP (30fps*60 sec/min=1800 the rest is file data and keeping the numbers easy
adding thermographic doubles file size.
audio at normal frequencies 3D ultra high quality (usable by security programs that function like select sound filters) 1000 min/MP (thankyou Botch)
high /low frequency increases file size by 100% each.
Now the book lists baseline sim sense at MP/1sec. Not knowing exactly what goes into that I would not change it. Full X is 4MP/sec if memory serves.
What about tridio. Almost all entertainment is tridio but I cant find a tridio recorder or file size. Even the entertainment section in SR3 street gear lists prices for video recordings but not tridio. I would place it about 5MP/min based on putting it between video and simsence.
Now if one where to make these modifications what impact would it have on game balance.
Edward
Just what fine tuning can you do on these 1MP/min audio fifes anyway. I haven’t seen any rules for select sound after recording or similar.
For the purpose of realism I would choose video at 20* zoom to be 1MP/min including an audio stream. This is the arbitrary point.
2d images of the same quality are 1500 images per MP (30fps*60 sec/min=1800 the rest is file data and keeping the numbers easy
adding thermographic doubles file size.
audio at normal frequencies 3D ultra high quality (usable by security programs that function like select sound filters) 1000 min/MP (thankyou Botch)
high /low frequency increases file size by 100% each.
Now the book lists baseline sim sense at MP/1sec. Not knowing exactly what goes into that I would not change it. Full X is 4MP/sec if memory serves.
What about tridio. Almost all entertainment is tridio but I cant find a tridio recorder or file size. Even the entertainment section in SR3 street gear lists prices for video recordings but not tridio. I would place it about 5MP/min based on putting it between video and simsence.
Now if one where to make these modifications what impact would it have on game balance.
Edward
1,000 minutes of sound per MP is ridiculously high. Drop it at least one order of magnitude, IMO.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 30 2004, 07:28 PM) |
| Even 16-VSB only gives ~38 megabits per second, still well under your estimate for a compressed (!) video format. Edit: Here we go, ~160 megabytes/second for uncompressed 1080 24p or similar formats. I still say your number is silly for compressed stuff, though. |
16-VSB does not support 20x digital zoom.
16-VSB supply that is available to an end user currently suffers from pixelation and macroblocks when the image alters too quickly, this is mainly due to an inadequate bit-rate. End-user compression is often at a ratio of 100:1, with no zoom facility. If 16-VSB did provide 20x zoom the amount of memory used is
38Mbps / 8 = 4.75MB/sec, 4.75MB/sec * 60secs = 285MB/min (no zoom)
285MB/min * 16.7 (20x zoom) = 4,759.5MB/min
At 1080i HD, is an interlaced format and 160MB/sec = 9,600MB/min. I was only using 950MB/min for a video stream that also included a 20x factor zoom and a compression ratio used by MPEG-4. Including a 20x digital zoom on a video stream multiplies the memory requirement by a factor of 16.7. Making allowances for current technological advances and saying that 1080i HD, could reliably be compressed with a ratio of 100:1 and it included a 20x digital zoom the math would look like this
160MB/sec x 60secs (1minute sample) x 16.7 (zoom) / 100 (compression) =
160 x 60 x 16.7 / 100 = 1,603.2MB/min @ 24fps
How is 950MB/min @ 30fps out of whack, too low maybe?
As to a solution?
Simsense = cost/requirement stays the same (It's expensive to be immersive)
Video = memory/1000
Trideo = memory/200
Audio = Negliable, any memory not full of simsense will do.
Hardcopy digititation = Negliable, any memory not full of simsense will do.
Edited for correct ratios
The numbers may not be off, I'm not going to check the math right now, but that's not at all what MPEG-4 was designed for. It may be able to handle it, but it was meant for much, much lower bit rates and ease of streaming or downloading.
~J
~J
I only used MPEG-4 and a pentax digital zoom camera because I needed a real world comparison. I needed a compression ratio that is accepted as plausible and widely used because compression had been used as a counter arguement earlier in this thread.
The only problem that I see with my figurework is simsense. I do not know the total number of nerves (non-optic) in the human body and so am unable to compute simsense including touch/pain. Until that is included, I cannot finalise a "plausibly correct" figure.
The only problem that I see with my figurework is simsense. I do not know the total number of nerves (non-optic) in the human body and so am unable to compute simsense including touch/pain. Until that is included, I cannot finalise a "plausibly correct" figure.
I played around with SR computer rules that weren't simply based off of memory.
Maybe it'll be useful.
Maybe it'll be useful.
Nice addendum, but not really a solution as it still leaves audio costing 6 /min to record audio on a pocket secretary(dictaphone).
/min to record audio on a pocket secretary(dictaphone).
Latest neurological research has suggested that person-to-person communication requires around 10Mbps bandwidth.
| QUOTE (lokugh @ Sep 21 2004, 10:38 PM) | ||
Size of my first harddrive was 40MB, added to a Tandy 1000 so I could play Civ  Sargasso, how large would a library full of image files be (imagine you are limited to .GIF's ?) I don't know what goes into a hermetic library, but I always figured there was not all that much text. And I suspect it includes things like its own operating system, encryption, etc. Again, this was all based on 10 to 15 year old computer technology and then thinking ahead (remember, as early as 20 years ago, Bill Gates and company did not believe any computer would ever need more than 650K of memory. That 650K limit was what made DOS such a bitch to run games on. So, thinking 60-80 years ahead is hard). |
Luxury! Pure Luxury!
5MByte, 12inch removeable plate + 20MByte, 12inch fixed unit. Weight came in around 50kg and you could adjust the read/write heads with a screwdriver.
The unit was part of a Siemens R30 ProcessControllSystem used until the early 1990s, then replaces by a Siemens M-Series (aka Siggis aka Die Jungs) Beautiful, beautiful units. R30 was around 2hx1.5wx1.5d m, M70 was 1.3hx1.5w.2d
Btw. BillyBoy might not believe in > 640KB but others did. When PC-users where boasting 1MByte/286 and EMM/EMS others where already using flat 4MByte on 68000 or ARM systems. Remember Atari ST/TT, Amiga, Acorn Archimedes?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.