Yep, d20 is for high fantasy, not logical or realism. In d20 a 10th level fighter can calmly turn his back on a goblin to fight thw goblin's two buddies. In Shadowrun, that would get you geeked. Shadowrun's more gritty and realisitc, in the sense that doing stupid things gets you killed.

It could have, though, assuming you're using the Ultra-Lethal version of VP/WP, assuming Lincoln is totally unaware he's about to be shot and the shooter had a few feats to increase the damage. Then you could crank that damage up to something amazing like 1d4+5, which with a good roll could be more than Lincoln's CON score, which would immediately kill him.

(And no, I'm still not trying to defend d20 -- I stand by all the bad things I've said about it in the past.)

I don't think SR would be at all improved by making it d20. But the real reason you won't see it happen is because everyone here has some weird allergic reaction to just mentioning d20 or D&D.

Sargasso:: In D20 damage from a shortsword does NOT nessasarily mean you just got a 3 foot steel enema. HP are an abstract concept that are not related directly to physical damage. Well perhaps at 1st level they are direct, but as you raise in levels HP lose respresent things such as use of luck and exhaustion. The weapon need not draw blood any given time.

That is where SR is very different from D&D, and likewise similar in lethalness as D&D is for first level characters.

That is also a core reason why D20 SR would be a very different beast....unless all the classes had +0 hitpoints increase per level (I've not read the D20 Modern, maybe they did that?). Even then the Con bonus would skew things (and make Con an insanely important stat).

Which is why Heal spells replenish your luck.

~J

Blak - I was the one talking about the three feet of cranky steel.

And I do know the old argument about exhaustion and drain and whatnot, but c'mon - that's one of the goofiest bits of rationalization I've heard to date.

And it still doesn't explain archers.

-Siege

I just broke out in oozing blisters.

Thanks a lot

I, for one, hope they do make SR d20 and then go to each of your houses, take away your old SR books, pile them in the town square, and burn them. And then beat your dog to death with a big spiked d20 made from the bones of dead babies.

Maybe then the amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth we're seeing when d20 gets mentioned will finally by warranted.

And then there's how Dodge, Dexterity, Haste, Deflection, armor in general, Defensive fighting, Expertise etc all change your AC, while your HP is increased by Toughness and being big and burly.

Plus it's a bit difficult to rationalize how, when you need only a 2 on d20 to hit and you roll a natural 20 and another 20 on the threat roll and then maximum damage for your crossbow when firing it at an unarmored high-level fighter at 2 meters from behind when he's immobile and unaware of you, you somehow manage to all but miss and just scrape him a bit.

It can work as a game, if you like high fantasy, but there's absolutely nothing logical about it.

D20 does not equal D&D, but since that seems to be the standard around here, I will use that lingo.

Actually Mode, that was the running joke when the heroine died in "Van Helsing."

However, in that case, characters would start sucking up damage for things they did for free just a few levels before and hit points wouldn't be so bloody hard to get back if it's just a matter of exhaustion.

-Siege

Edit: And I'm stopping, honest. No more d20/DnD rantings for me.

If what you’re saying is true, then I am decently unhappy that something entitled “Cure Serious Wounds” does not in fact cure serious wounds. I await better explanation of this (take your time (no need for it to get done today, we're not in a hurry here), or feel free to shunt me over to a preexisting explanation elsewhere).

~J

I can wait; I'll be out of town for the weekend myself, anyway.

~J

So...wait. Now the offical D&D line is that Cure Light Wounds does not, in fact, cure light wounds? Instead, it's like a cup of coffee?

ye flippin gods...

I see now. I interpreted your 'immobile and unaware' as meaning 'Incapable of motion', not merely 'choosing not to move at the moment'.

Even so, I sincerely doubt it'd be DC 11-14 in the situation you outlined. A crossbow is d8 damage, maximum 8, doubles on a crit to 16, 10+16 for a DC of 26. A 12th level fighters base Fortitude save would be +8. Even if he has a Constitution of 18(A bit low at level 12, but I'm thinking if you had someone in this kind of situation you would think to strip them of magic items first), he has only +12 from mods, maybe +14 from a feat or two, he should have at least one PrC, so +16. He'd need to roll a 10 or better to live. Someone living through that sort of situation isn't out of the question - People have certainly survived trying to Coup de Grace themselves with firearms.

But yeah, if you wanted to convert it, you'd probably want to make the system somewhat more lethal. SR has its fair share of "...How did he live through that moments?", especially once you involve M&M, the trauma damper, and platelet factories.

I suppose you could envision it that way. But somehow i can't shake the sense that there is a hint of derision in your post. Maybe it's just the reference to American Ninja 3?

BTW perhaps a better, quicker explaination than waiting on me could be obtained at EN World? I don't have a link to those forums, but certainly somebody here would.

P.S. Posting the link anonymously might be a good idea to avoid lynching.

It bothers me that:

1. He admits to having seen American Ninja 3
2. He remembers the movie well enough to quote from it

-Siege

or maybe go the way of mutants and masterminds. either you dont feel a thing. or you get a negative modifier to everything you do. or i the worst case your out flat. kinda reminds me of the system in blue planet (one very nice game btw). there you either take a small wound that just gives you a -1 on tests. or a slighty more serius wound that risk getting you stuned (and adds a -2 modifier) and finaly you have the big one that can land you a -3 modifier, a stun test and a trauma test (basicly a chance to go deadly). even if you survive all these roll the negatives stack (alltho not on the stun and trauma test) so in effect you will quite soon only be able to scream for medical aid and scrawl about (autofire is extreamly nasty btw, every point above a set level adds a negative modifier to the trauma roll. walk in front of a HMG in full action and you will most likely end up dead/dieing, armor or no armor).

heh, maybe so, but i belive it can be done in shadowrun (by being lucky that is) and i do belive that d20 modern is lethal when it comes to HMG (2d12 damage and massive damage rules adds up). alltho there is one distinct diffrence, in both d20 and sr you end up and bleeding but not stone cold dead (get the right medical attention and you will survive). in blue planet however your stone cold dead on a bad roll, and given the startingpoint of a HMG wound i would say your chances are slim at best. system is this, roll 2d10, keep the lowest roll. this must be equal or below the appropriate stat after the stat have been modified (and the modifier here is -10). miss the number by more then 5 and well i think you get the picture...

I can only hope not.

Stone cold dead immediately pretty much requires brain destruction. I don't think the fact that a Troll hit by a HMG might be technically still alive for up to another minute is too bad, and for normal humans… well, it's pretty exceptional circumstances that provide a difference between dead in nine seconds and dead.

~J

I would sign that "D20 Gives You Cancer" sign if I ever had a chance to.

D20 Shadowrun? Not if I can help it. There will always be those who prefer to play "original" or "classic" SR, and these will outnumber the newcomers. I say, should this blasphemous event occur, we suggest that they leave the text alone, and put conversion notes in the back, thus enabling us to play it without having to re-learn an entire system.

Elf Porn? By all means, more Elf Porn. If there's a link, GIMME!!!!!!

Drek, elf porn is one of the most common variants, just try any search engine. Dwarf porn is in short supply, and there are only a few sources for troll, orc, and "other" porn.

Given that even one minute of survival requires a Body of 20, I'd agree that several minutes would be a bit much, but we don't have to worry about it. The only difficulty is that people can stabilize them in that time, but barring some impressive First Aid a single Troll being nailed properly by an HMG won't live that unreasonably long.

And that picture is just creepy.

~J

Just face facts: D20 gaming does not mix with Shadowrun's style of play. You'd have to do incredible overhauls of major systems in order to get it to work under the D20 system. The biggest problem: Cyberwear and magic.

In the rules for SR, cyberwear is a counterbalance to magic and vice versa. You get a lot of cyberwear, it makes you stronger/faster/smarter/whatever, but it prevents your effective use of magic if you even could use magic in the first place. If you use magic, you become more powerful/stronger/able to blow stuff up with your mind/etc, but if you get cyberwear, you can't use magic as effectively. There really isn't an effective way to do this under D20 rules.

Decking, rigging, etc. becomes much harder to do, the magic systems don't mesh well at all, and that's not even counting the fun of making the D20 system somehow conform to the existing fiction (which even though the various editions of Shadowrun, you can still make a 1st Ed era novel fit a SR3 mechanic by simply noting that a "spell lock" is a slang term for a sustaining focus.

I don't mind playing D20 games under certain circumstances. I'm currently working on a zombie game using the D20 rules (much different than D&D zombies...more like Romero's zombies...you can knock them down with an easy shot but they get back up...you have to get a headshot to kill them for good). But Shadowrun just doesn't work with D20's ruleset. You'd have a much easier time converting it to the new WOD system...but that system is so woefully flawed on its own as to be kinda funny.

The Abstruse One

this is why i say that converting a game from a established system to another is bad as you get holes and bumps and whatsnot. but if you start with the system and then wrap cyberpunk, magic and metahumans around it it may not be shaodwrun but its a game where you have cyberware, trolls and fireballs

existing games, stick to your system. new games, evaluate doing d20 if it will make your life easyer and you think you get the feel right...

Alright my main reasons for not converting SR to D20:
1-Class system is not flexible enough for me to play a realistic modern character.
2-Level based progression doesn't allow for many choices when combined with #1.
3-Magic. The two systems have nothing in common.

On the other side I really like the ease of play that D20 combat has. This is because I like a fast pace system that allows me to be creatively descriptive.

so then you rip out the class system and level system and just deliver out generic build points at diffrent times. th base d20 system is independent of levels and classes, its just that d&d have them as its part of the d&d style. and d20 modern keeps them around as it was simpler that way (and the basic ones are so generic that they are more like generics then classes). ogl cybernet used classes and levels as it in many ways is a d20 modern clone with cyberware and drugs. mutants & masterminds shows that it can be done ripping classes and levels out (alltho it replaces it with power levels as a way to control basic stats). hell, even cyberpunk 2020 uses "classes"...

One other thing to consider is that a 1st level d20 character is not the same as a '1st level' (Newly created) SR Character. Not even close, you' d have to bump up the levels of a d20 char to make them even with a SR char.

Maybe give them 4 or 5 levels in their chose basic class, then 4 or 5 levels in their advance class.

Yeah, I've put some thought into it, and so far that's one thing I'd definetly consider.....

Let's take the normal D20 rules. They are On and Off. You either hit or miss. Your skill has verry little to do with the outcome save the chances of you hiting.

Combat, with most d20 setting you have a few problems. One If I have a BAB of 4,and +10,000 to hit with a cross bow. I one still miss on a 1,and only do sligthly more damage than other people evry once in a wile. less than 5% of the time.

By the way if I score over your ac by 0 or 100,000,000 i still do the same damage.

If I swing a sword,dager,axe, pike,hamer or mace at someone in feild plate,chain mail or naked, I do the same damage, save the chances of hitting them, and about 5% of the time with crits. Yes this means that weapons made for beating hard metal,and weapons made for soft fleash do the same amoutn of damage on the victem.

healing. If a mage,and a fighter are reduced to 1 hit point and they are both level 20, the mage will heal faster than the the fighter.In fact the Drawven fighter witha con of 30 takes many times longer to heal from one hit point to full than the elven mage with a con of 10.

Then you have things like "ill,sick, tired, blind..." And so that you either are or you aren't.you get sick,and if the rules say you are "sick" you have the same ruls if you hit by soemthign that made you sick one time or by soemthing that made you sick 100 times.

again your not thinking outside of the d&d/d20 modern box. how about setting a flat low targetnumber for the test, and then say for every 2 that you get above or below that number on the test you modify the outcome? there is nothing in the d20 system that says you cant do that.

damage can be modified, old pre 3. d&d had a optional rule for modifying damage based on armortype vs damage type (thats why they where classified like bashing, slashing and pierceing). and you can argue that SR have the same problem in that a fist, a sword and a hammer all interact with the impact stat of whatever armor the opponent is wearing, but for some reason bullets have to work against ballistic when we know that kevlar like materials just as easy can stop blades as they can stop bullets.

healing is in d20 is a factor of useing hitpoints. remove hitpoints and replace it with say the damage system that we have in sr and you will see that things change fast. and again the damage system isnt part of the base d20 system, its part of d20 modern and d&d.

same with sick. one can add rules that say the effect goes up with getting hit more times by a poison. but frankly, getting sick with the same illness just adds to your recovery time as you have more active bacteria in your system, the level of sickness comes from your body reaction to said bacteria. people can die from the flu damn it. nad how many degrees of blindness are there? even in sr there is only blind fire ( +8 ). and tiredness can be messured with subdual damage.that is damage done in fist fights in d&d and that adds up until it hits your current number of hitpoints and then you either gets staggerd or pass out (equal or above).

the only thing that d20 is when we strip away all the game spesific stuff is:
roll 1d20, add modifiers, compare to targetnumber.

and if we boil sr down to basic rolls?
roll xd6 where x is skill level. compare every dice to targetnumber. if dice comes up 6 roll again and sum result (repeat 6 come up again).

every thing i game specific mubojumbo and most likley have to be replacesed if the system is to be ported to a diffrent setting.

yes they have made it simpler by setting basic targernumbers for basic tasks in the skill descriptions in wotc products (and others). and i kinda like that move. and i kinda like the rule of take 10 or take 20 and the fact that some skills and situations dont allow for that. and i kinda like feats to as there are some stuff you either have or you dont have with no degrees to it (alltho feats can be taken multiple times to simulate degrees of training).

basicly it comes down to what people think about when they say d20. are they thinking about the basic dice system or are the refering to porting the wholesale d20 modern/d&d ruleset over without adjustments?

Then it's not d20.. d20 is a specific ruleset.

If you change all that then it's not d20 and the point is moot, whether or not it happenes with 20 sided dice.