I'm just getting back into SR after playing D&D 3ed for many years. I frequent other message boards, most notably ENWorld, and one of the common points of discussion is the conversion of SR to d20. The usual conclusion is that they are just too different for a successful conversion. Anyway, I was just wondering if anything like that had been discussed in here.

The most common motivation for the conversion is that the SR ruleset is too complex. While it is more complex, it's also what makes SR unique.

I was also curious about how much experience anyone has with D&D or other d20 games. I've been pleasantly surprised to see SR and the community going strong since I've gotten back into it (after 10+ years of being away from it).

Must...control...fist...of...death...

I think the general consensus around here regarding Shadowrun d20 is something along the lines of, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
For a variety of reasons.

I, for one, regularly play and enjoy 'that other game'. It's a fun and easy system and is good for high fantasy settings.
I am very interested to get my hands on a copy of d20 Future, but it could never, ever replace Shadowrun.

To quote Bull...

D20 Gives You Cancer

d20 shadowrun, all 519 very long messages of it.

And Herpes!

And...and...a really bad case of...uh...writer's block.
Ah, damn it!

Yes, but we took her to the vet and got her some shots so that shouldn't happen again.

Gawd I hope SR don't go d20, I really liked SR cause it was so different from other RPG games, the way it uses dice as tests especially.

However, if it does, I probably wouldn't buy it and continue with what I've come to enjoy in SR.

While I do strongly believe SR needs a slicker and clearer ruleset, I don't think d20 is the way to do it, unless you're willing to modify it to the point where it can't really be called d20 anymore.

I'm sure people have house-ruled d20 modern to allow for the SR genre.

Will Fanpro ever release a formal SR in d20 format? Probably not. As I understand it, the d20 market is already hitting saturation point and the big companies are scaling back their efforts in that arena.

-Siege

I don’t think D20 SR could work.

The SR mechanics are tightly wound with the in character world view. Reaction improving cyber wear would need a Compleat rewrite the magic systems are unrecognisable and D20 doesn’t have any real facility for the degrees of success that are one of SRs strongest points. In spite of being a great fan of D&D I sincerely hope SR never gets converted. A homogeneous RP mechanic is highly undesirable.

Edward

want to play elfs in cyberpunk with the d20 rules? ogl cybernet, d20 modern and get to town

SR went D20 for one day last April 1st. We also got Elf Porn. It balanced out.

I could use more Elf Porn, though.

You can see my signature right above the "S" on that glorious and truthful cancer warning sign.

As hobgoblin suggested, it's trivial to duplicate the *game world* in d20. Between D20 Future, OGL Cybernet, and D20 Modern, it's just a matter of cutting and pasting what you want into the game.

However, it won't feel a damned thing like Shadowrun in play. Skills will probably transfer reasonably well. I don't think anything else would.

With the number of Gamers out there that look like Orks and Trolls, I'm sure there is a demographic for it.

If you're going to continue discussing D20 SR...

Why not just continue to fill up the old thread rather than fill up a new one?

Because the old thread doesn't compare d20 to porn..And Frankly Porn wins.I mean really porn is just better.

If I had known there was another thread, I probably wouldn't have started another. Sorry guys.

I'm more a fan of D30 Shadowrun. That way all you have to do is multiply every TN and TN modifier by 5, reroll on 26-30, and have 1-5 always fail.

Ive thought about other settings that can be converted to shadowrun! Its a good solid system that all makes sense. Im not knocking D20 since I have little experience in it, but I certainly understand how it works. Character progression seems to be exponential in power which doesnt really happen in life.

Bah, the SR mechanic set is one of the drawbacks to the SR game in my opinion.

The genre and concept is first-rate and very enjoyable, but the numbers give me a headache.

-Siege

Dude don't you know D20 gives you cancer......

Dear God no.

Shadowrun is my absolute favorite RPG and has been ever since 1990.

My second favorite was Aberrant [Storyteller]. I bought the d20 version to support the line, and I was greatly disappointed. They took a system that needed some rules fixes and watered it down to the point it wasn't really Aberrant anymore.

Shadowrun is a quality product that can only lose by going to d20.

/end rant

Corvusnex

D20 serves the genre of Dungeons and dragons, which is medival fantasy. In d20, there's an infinite scale of power attainable, people classify (via classes) very easily. People don't become any worse at fighting when they take wounds, until one moment, they suddenly collapse. In Shadowrun's system, people are each very distinct, and only have classes in the sense that they have certain abilities and roles. In Shadowrun, combat is fast. In a room foll of ten runners, nine of them could be at deadly damage in three seconds. In Shadowrun, people suffer from their wounds (And how! ). In shadowrun, no matter how good you are, you can die from an attack or sabotage from an unexpected quarter. Not only that, but it's worthy of comment. In some alley in seattle right now, (2064), some chromed out 100,000 street sam is being killed by a gang of well prepared orks.

Rules should be built to serve the game. Dungeons and Dragons has vastly different themes and story elements. Shadowrun's rules suit the gritty and paranoid world of Shadowrun to a T. D20 shadowrun would simply feel like D&D with cyberware. Le snore.

Yeah, d30s rock...until they roll right off the table, out the door, and you get a postcard from Bermuda five weeks later.

The other problem with D20 is it scales so much differently.

It is easy to start with effective 8 in a weapon skill and you will rarely get above effective 12 (10 and 16 for adepts) and the difference between 8 and twelve is not close to as much as the difference between 2 and 8.

In D20 you start hardly able to hit the brode side of a barn (even if you are a fighter type) and progress to the point where you are all but certain to hit all but the most heavily armoured targets.

D20 precludes a full magician from being good with guns hand to and or taking damage. All my magic users take 4 in at least 1 combat skill.

D20 has spells per day. SR lets you cast all day subject to drain (and under good circumstances that is not an issue. An SR triage medic can work all day with the right build as a starting character. Level 20 cleric can not.)

How would you work essence loss bio index and magic under D20

By the time you made it would not feal like SR or it would not be D20. Probably both.

D20 is a soft system where you don’t really have to hurt. On 1 of your 200hp you fight at full effectives. In SR going into a fight with a lightly sprained ankle will cost you dearly. Your characters actually hurt (baring pain editors). D20 has no grit. Even raven loft is soft by SR standards.

Edward

A lot of those problems are fixable if you do things differently than most other people using D20.

Not that your main point isn't, IMO, true, but just because what's out there for D20 has certain flaws doesn't mean that all of them have to. It just happens to have other flaws that are universal, no small number of which are due to the size and preexisting "feel" of D20 rather than the mechanics themselves.

~J

I disagree. It is the basic structure of the d20 rules which make it a poor platform for adaptation to Shadowrun. In order to make it suit shadowrun's feel properly, you'd have to duplicate everything about the current SR3 rules which make it work.

Square peg, round hole. Yes, it can be done, witness the Apollo 13, but why not simply use the round hole for round plugs, and the square hole for square plugs?

That's why I said that his main point (that D20 is a poor choice for Shadowrun) was still true. It's just not entirely fair to label his other objections as inherent flaws of the mechanics.

~J

I found the comment about combat being fast in SR to be rather amusing, because once a large fight gets going with gangers, sams, riggers, et al, damn, but can things slow down.

If you really have a craving to play Shadowrun D20, use the Modern or Ultra Modern systems and just take whatever part of the story you want. There are a lot of things like the staged success and dodge pools systems that would take way too much effort to translate in a d20 based system in any workable form, and what would SR be without a combat pool?

The basic advantage of the D20 system is that the generic rules are fairly easy to fit to any concept you want to come up with, from gritty cyber-punk to pure fluff fairy land adventures. D20 systems, should in theory, cross compatible, so if you decide you want to take your party of 6 million dollar cyborgs to happy fairyland, you could do so without having to convert the characters. If you see a sourcebook for something else that you really like, you can use it in your system with a minimum of fuss.

That's not to say I want to see everything in D20. I've played the original Call of Cthulu, and I really liked the d100 system it used. I haven't played the d20 update, but from what I've heard, I'd be less than enthusiastic about the changes. Then again, because of D20 with little effort, you could play CoC in happy fairyland. You'd be a freak, but you could do it.

Brrrr - d20.

But I actually think about converting SR to Tri-Stat once the new "Ex Machina" Tri-Stat Cyberpunk Rulebook is available here in Germany.

Err.... I'm pretty sure GlassJaw was joking. No 'player' would ever consider sacrificing a chance to roll 24 dice at once so that he could roll a d20. The sounds are poorer due to its rounder shape, the energy is lacking, you don't get to count your successes (heck, you only HAVE 1 success). And most importantly, the loud rattle of so many dice in your hand (or better: in a Yahtzee cup) while screaming "Die you Fraggin Wannabe!!!" makes it so much more emphatic. Shouting it with just a D20 would offer no intimidating background noise at all. Heck, I think I'd give a +2TN to resisting intimidation if someone used a d20 for shadowrun.

Sphynx

Personally I cant see why a multitude of RPG systems should all convert into one - namely d20. I dislike the system mainly because of the invunerability factor as others have already pointed out. IMHO the d20 system works for computer games but makes a bad "real" RPG-system. (that comment is gonna get me killed, oh well)
My heart sunk when I saw the CoC d20 system and I began to fear to the convertion of Shadowrun to d20. I'll cry or at least cry out in rage if I ever see this happen.
You could use the world of Shadowrun in d20, but a total convertion of the system would fail utterly. The magic system for one would fail, since SR is levelless and D20 have no real Drain System. "Roll under your wisdom, but if you roll over you take a number of hp damage equal to the amount you rolled over?"
Shadowrun also have 2 damage systems, one being Stun and the other being Physical and to my knowledge there isnt a d20 equvialet to this.

As others here I agree on Shadowrun would make a very bad d20 convertion

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multiply all target numbers with 3.5, roll a number of d20s equal to your skill, automatic failures on 1-4 ... could work, but I wouldnt want to go into that alley of gaming

I definitely have to agree with Sphinx on this one... Just one, stupid round die?!? Crazy talk. I could see turning SR into d7, that way you fix the whole '7's are useless' problem, plus d7's just look funny : )

I do have a confession to make, guys. I... played d20 in college... It was just once, and everyone else was doing it!! Fortunately, I went to the doctor and he checked my dice bag, and everything's normal.

Honestly, I like d20 when I don't want to think about mechanics. I think CoC d100 is a cool game, but when I play it, it's 99.9% story, and .1% dice rolling, so I like games where it's just easier in that regard. So far everything I've played is largely classless/leveless (skills go up, but none of that HP/BA silliness). Or I use it when the focus isn't on the game at all, for instance drunk D&D. D20 is like a floppy disk, you CAN use it just about anywhere, but there's almost always a better (if more complex) method available of doing the same thing.

mutants & masterminds is a classless level-less version of the d20 rules, it can be done people

why do people automaticly think d&d when they hear d20? magic dont have to be the d&d way. you can rip out hitpoints and classes if you like. hell you can rip out most anything and only keep the skill test system. sure it takes a lot of work, most likely more then it is worth but it can be done.

ogl cybernet have a system of edge dice that in game can be applyed in a way similar to what the dice pools of sr...

but then im never for porting a setting to a new system, to me setting and system is designed to be used together. therefor i resist moveing cyberware from cyberpunk2020 over to shadowrun and i avoid compareing how stuff is done in one cyberpunk style game to the next.

still, d20 isnt equal d&d. yes all the wotc books are very d&d-like but i cant blaim em. its the ogl books that adds the flavor

there is no true perfect roleplaying game, and the d20 rules are not the big bad boogey that some wants to show it of as. yes its bad that people port "old" games over to the rules but if someone clones the settings but build it from the ground up to fit with the system it, in my head atleast, works as there is no reason to compare.

rpgs was at one time about growth. your char started out as a lowly grunt with a bit more promise then the avarage man and then got stronger, faster, smarter. but there would allways be something even more powerfull to confront (no matter what side of the law you where on). now it seems to be all about one shot drama and action. starting out with a set number of points so that you jump ahead to what matches with the story the gm wants to tell and then tell it. after that one just toss the character aside. people seems to have become locked into a search for the one true way to play rpgs, with to mutch focus on the word role and to little on the word play.

this is why muchkins and powergamers show up, as a counterweight. they dont want to care about the inner workings of the roles mind and why he does what he does. he dont want to write 20 pages of history about the life of the char (personaly i shape this as i go along, lots of loose ends and so on).

the char isnt supposed to be a role like in a theater, its you in a diffrent scenario, a different world. or atleast some of what you are as a person bleed into the char. its what you would be with the resources and skills of the char in the same situation.

in the end its a escape from the gray world of school, work, life in general.
you allow yourself to become whatever you want, ut at the same time your not omnipotent as the rules sets the limits and the growth curve.

What about Shadowrun converted to WEG d6 rules?

It's infinately more user friendly, has the classless feature that so many of us love, and alot of things could still be congerted over.

/puts on flame retardent clothing

Any genre can be made to fit any number system - the only question becomes, how much work is required for it to happen?

The WEG d6 system has better potential than the d20 system in some respects, but it's lacking in others.

-Siege

Man, do you have any idea how much d20 Modern sucks? Like, at least in SR firearms behave in a basically realistic manner.

But consider d20 firearms.

.22LR does 1d4. Does that make any sense to you? Any sense at all? How is being stabbed by a big medieval dagger (1d4 damage) the same as being hit by a .22 slug? The dagger can, like, sever tendons, open arteries, and cause massive blood loss. .22LR, on the other hand, will generally do none of these things.

The damage dosen't scale very well, either. I'm forgetting the details, but 9mm does more damage than, like, a short sword. But honestly, which do you think is more traumatic to your body? Being hit with a single 9mm round, or having 3 feet of steel plunged deep into you?

Then all the firearms damage tapers off around 20 points, even for things like .50 cal rifles. That in and of itself dosen't make a whole lot of sense. When you begin to talk about hand grenades and .50 cal rifles, the concept hit points for people starts to become asinine. There's no realistic way a level 24 character who has a few hundred hit points should be able to repeatedly chest block .50 cal rounds like the d20 hit point system would allow him or her to do. That's just really stupid. At least in Shadowrun you have naval damage as well as the big fat D damage code.

The last thing I hate is how d20 makes you miss in situations where you really shouldn't miss. Because of d20 to-hit rolls, I once had a first level Call of Cthulu character with a shotgun loaded with shot miss a giant sized monster at close range. But that was so unrealistic as to pretty much destroy my suspension of disbelief. If you have a shotgun loaded with shot, and then there's a monster the size of a barn right in front of you....YOU CANNOT MISS! It just dosen't make sense! IT's not going to happen.

But d20 makes it happen. Because it's arbitrary and weird.

Is that any more or less absurd than the notion three feet of steel shoved through your gut won't seriously inconvienence your day?

Suspension of disbelief is fine, but every genre has it's borders.

I've always suggested limiting d20 characters to (Con + Str)/2 as fixed hit points. No more, no less with the exception of the appropriate Feats.

That makes crossbows and archers dangerous again and heroes mortal. Which kinda kills the "grand fantasy" element they aim for.

-Siege

I pretty much did the whole "all existing d20 systems suck for firearms and realism" thing in the thread I linked near the beginning of the thread. My favorite is the Plate Mail protecting as well as a full suit of tactical entry armor.

Besides, you don't get 3 feet of steel plunged deep into you unless you get a pretty fucking awesome critical with a Long Sword. And you can get your aorta blown away with a 9mm just fine.

Which is somehow less effective as you become more skilled?

Arrows suddenly penetrate less because you're so much tougher?

The concept of level-based hitpoints is just bad.

-Siege

You're preaching to the choir, Siege.