Racial max for an Elf with Execeptional Charisma is 14.

~J

At only 42 points of Karma for your 14th point, what a smokin deal.

Get an Ally spirit.

It's still pretty hard, Lilt, to achieve 16 successes on 14 dice, in order to get a +8 to charisma. The Increase <attribute> spells require 2 successes for each +1 to the attribute, with a maximum increase of the spell's Force.

Don't even Great Forms have problems with toxic areas that Elementals just don't?

I may be thinking of something else.

~J

According to MITS, pp. 126-127, you may not be able to summon a nature spirit in a toxic domain, but that doesn't prevent you from bringing a great form into one. Likewise, the background count may make a great form less effective (just like any astrally-active being), but it won't prohibit the spirit from entering the area.

I thought Force > Magic Rating, not Chr, = Physical Drain from summoning.

The Abstruse One

Yes, but the *level* of the Drain is when you compare the Force to the conjurer's Cha

F <=.5*Cha ==> Light
F <=1.*Cha ==> Mod
F <=1.5*Cha ==> Serious
F > 1.5*Cha ==> Deadly

Something's nagging me in this thread...I'm reading a lot of people discussing the merits of Channeling etc...but in my game (and in yours too, I hope) a magician player character can't just pick any metamagical technique out of the book, just because he/she gets a new Initiation grade...some technique ought to be well-kept secrets, not stuff you can learn by reading Magician's Monthly or other Ambrosius Publications newsletters...I think Channeling in particular is something that only a few people know (it makes sense for magicians hailing from specific cultures where possession by a spirit is something viewed favorably like in Voodoo or with Ancestors spirits...maybe with some totally fragged-up Toxics or Corrupted).
Someone talked about the roleplaying aspect which is essential to me. Whenever a new player wants to create an Awakened character, I don't go so much into the technical aspects than into the rp aspect: magic from the heart and soul vs intellectualized magical theorem manipulation...do you live in a world full of spirits slumbering everywhere around you or do you see the world as a multidimensional construct of varying levels of energies...do you respectfully summon incarnations of life or do you superimpose your strength of will to impart sentience to the surrounding elemental energy pool ?

As for tactical considerations...attacking with a squad of Force 8 Fire Elementals in tow can be cool'n flashy but what if you get knocked out or killed?
As a gamemaster, the tactic I would use against such hermetic "GrosBill" (french for munchkin) is very simple: whack the mage with a dirty Stun spell/concussion grenade / dose of Narcoject Lethe or whatever will do the trick...
And voilà!!! a handful Force 8 spirits checking a Force against a mere 4 in order to get free...imagine your 6 or 8 Force 8 Fire Elementals (plus spirit energy) deciding to celebrate their newfound freedom by toasting those fragging shadowrunning slavers!!! Smells like barbecue time!!!

Keep in mind that Shadowlands is a Level 2 contact that most mages won’t have at chargen, and that a lot of the sourcebooks will probably be hard to find or otherwise obfuscated.

~J

Wasn't (isn't?) the Grimoire updated and published annually? If so, then just about anything in it (and it's 3rd ed counterpart, MITS) should be available in any well-stocked library.

MITS has no in-game equivalent.

~J

@pepside:

The thing is, that part of the rules is very misleading. Somewhere else in another thread (or maybe this one, I can't remember), I mentioned that I got a reply from Wizkids on the number of metamagical techniques someone can learn. Officially, its once per grade. That means if you already learned your technique this grade from say a teacher, you couldn't then do a quest to learn another unless you initiate again.

I suppose you don't have to learn a technique at initiation itself, you might just gain the capability to. In that way you could maybe do a quest between grades, but again onlyto learn one ability per grade. But it would get around the repeating ordeals problem.

Speaking for our group, we limited it to a number of techniques up to twice your grade instead, learn 'em how you like. Generally speaking, our mages & shaman learn something at inititiation then almost immediately do a quest to learn another. That means by Grade 4, should they reach it, they stop doing quests because the rating is equal to the number of techniques you already know, which at means if you've learned everything you can for grade 3, your grade 4 technique quest will be at rating 6, which is no fun at all. Instead they have to start hunting down teachers and spirits at that point.

Since imx players don't tend to go above Grade 3 or 4 because they've got too much other stuff to spend their karma on, they then also don't usually break a ceiling of 6 seperate abilities. For a grade 3 mage with a large karma pool and a ton of spells, that doesn't seem unreasonable to me. There's well over 10 abilities to choose from, most of them cooler than a penguin's squishy bits, so a character never gets everything they want and still have to plan and sacrifice in terms of their development and improvement. Works for us, but the canon answer was once per grade, despite the seemingly opposite indication in the book.

I can print the text of the e-mail up if anyone wants and as long as no one thinks the guys at wizkids would mind (not that I can really see why they would, tbh).



@kagetenshi - yeah, but magicknet isn't - and what team worth their salt has a decker that after a while even if not at first doesn't work their way onto shadowland who can get this stuff for them?

Even if MITS isn't in game, I think we have to assume the stuff in MITS is generally well documented, there are universities and stuff that teach it, and corps that sell the gear - and even if not, what is a high rating library for anyway?

And I think if T:AL has an in game section describing something as powerful as channeling there really must be some IC stuff somewhere describing the content of MITS.

I mean, its a debatable point, obviously, because of the simple fact that there isn't an IC sourcebook which deals with the stuff in MITS - so it cannot be proved either way imho. I choose to assume it is out there. *shrugs* you can assume what you like!

I would say that bringing a Great Form Nature Spirit into a Toxic Domain will have adverse affects on it. Implications from YotC and Dragons also seem to suggest Toxic areas affect the Shaman and Spirits as well. While not necessarily spelled out in canon, there should be difficulty in controlling such spirits in such places.

A shaman may have only 1 nature spirit per domain BUT some areas have multiple domains.

Futhermore, shamans have the "advantage" of not losing all the effort they put into their spirits if they get Deadly.

The shaman loses the effort too, unless they've got a way to magically recover from a Deadly wound before sunrise/sunset (certain parts of the world, I suppose).

~J

Yes, but the amount of resources that the mage poured into summoning an elemental is large when compared to the pittiance the shaman put in when he summoned that nature spirit.

IIRC, it is mentioned in SoNA's PCC chapter that the metamagic of Channeling is 'recently' documented by the mainstream. Meaning it's not well documented until at least 2060.

Bad example. Yes, toxics may cross domain lines.

I'll rephrase the example:
An enemy shaman summons a nature sprit and tells it to target a friendly shaman with its Accident power. The friendly shaman summons another nature spirit from a different domain. Does it mean Mr Enemy Spirit cannot target Mr Friendly Shaman?

I tried out a new metamagic technique that allowed a shaman to have more than one spirit in a domain, as long as the total force was equal to her magic rating or less. It was fine. No game-breaking or world-ending.

Yes, but now the argument is defeated. If the enemy's City spirit (we'll use City spirits instead of Toxic spirits, as Toxics are exceptions) can still target you, then the City spirit you summoned earlier can still use his Guard power on you.

Are there any critters that are dual-natured without always being astrally perceiving?

~J

Yup, powers only work inside their domains for nature spirits. If you are in multiple domains, you are toast, but running into your house protects you from the big bad city spirit. It can't come in nor can it use its powers against you. Domains get fuzzy (like hiding from a sky spirit in a covered patio) but if you can't summon a certain spirit, it can't help or hurt you there. Great forms excepted.

So we have an example of something that can be vulnerable somewhere without getting the benefits of where they're vulnerable.

~J

Regarding Great Form Nature Spirits and their powers once they leave their domain--

Rules from the book (SR3.184, right column, 2nd and 5th paragraphs):

I'm not disputing that at all. My point is that the Shaman can still be in the Nature Spirit's Domain according to the Spirit, even if by the said Shaman's perspective he is in another, as long as the Domains can be considered to overlap. It's all in who's perspective is relevant at the time.

I'm not saying that the Shaman in the above example can still command the first Spirit once he changes his own perspective to that of a different Domain. He can though, still benefit from the effects of the last command given to that Spirit, as long as he stays within that Spirit's Domain as seen from the Spirit's perspective.

I'm not discussing Great Forms, as all bets are off as far as they are concerned.

Edit: OurTeam: Even though I now know that you weren't addressing me, I'm leaving the post as is, as I believe it gives a clear indication of what I am trying to say.

As a friend pointed out earlier today, another advantage of elementals is that you can give an elemental to someone else. Sure, it costs a service, but this can be really useful to a group, and just consider the business opportunities...

Yes, but in the morning. The later morning, that is.

~J