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Edward
I hope this doesn’t work.

Bad bad bad dept power combo.

Can you use this combo in tandem?

Killing hands
Delayed strike (the subtle version)
Distant strike

Consider the assassination implications. You never approach eth mark closer than a few meters, your 3 miles away in a police station when he dies.

Not to mention setting yourself up to take vengeance on the Johnson when he screws you over.

Would this leave any astral evidence? Would somebody astraly preserving you while you make the attacks notice what you where doing.

Edward
GrinderTheTroll
As far as I remember, Adept powers don't leave astral signature, it's not like casting a spell. However, the death of the Mark would probably incur a background where they die.

Nasty, yes. But kinda boring unless you get to see their face when they die. devil.gif
Kagetenshi
I'm pretty sure it does leave a signature. Even if not, it leaves a visible mark, which can be removed with a dispelling test, resulting in no damage.

The combo works, though; it's a bit of a famous one.

~J
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
The combo works, though; it's a bit of a famous one.

GM interpretation. Delay Damage (Silent) does not use a melee attack and thus shouldn't be used with Distance Strike as that requires a melee attack, which is turned into a ranged attack. Delay Damage (Silent) inflicts base Killing Hands damage with no chance of staging up since you make no attack. IMO.
Cochise
QUOTE (Edward)
I hope this doesn?t work.

Your hopes are not fulfilled. It works ...

QUOTE
Would this leave any astral evidence?


Generally speaking: No. First of all all powers do primarily affect the adept himself, thus even if a power produces a signature (and the rules do not provide information on that), that signature would end up on the person it affects, just like a sorcerer's signature ends up on the target / targeted area where a spell is cast. So ultimately the adpet would imprint his own signature onto himself when using one of his powers.

Even killing hands do affect the adept and not so much the target of a melee attack. Although the results of the changes made by killing hands are dramatic.


Distant strike is a different thing however (it sort of weakens the concept of body-magic, since the power for the first time does not enhance / alter the body of the adept itself, but affects something external). Still there isn't anything in the rules saying that adept powers do leave a signature at all. GM's call I'd say there.

QUOTE
Would somebody astraly preserving you while you make the attacks notice what you where doing.


Although there normally might not be a signature with adept powers, the delay damage power can be noticed, since it explicitly states that it leaves a perceivable magical charge on the target that can be "dispelled" und must be sustained by the adept until the time when the damage will occur (note that the time has to be determine before the use of the power, a slight difference in comparison to sustaining a spell. also note that if the target walks through an astral barrier, before the damage occurs, the charge will automatically drop without effect). This charge might even hold the signature of the adept (provided that you assume that powers actually do create a signature). This magical charge thing also sort of weakens the concept of body magic.

sidartha
It does leave an astral signiture and any one assenceing the victim can see a unusual power build up on his/her aura and once discovered can attempt to dispell the effect.
Since I don't have the book in front of me I can't be sure of the specifics, sorry.
As far as das uber combo is concerned you have to have killing hands at D and a boat load of other powers making a starting character rather lacking, if not downright impossible.
Of course YMMV wink.gif
Cochise
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
GM interpretation.  Delay Damage (Silent) does not use a melee attack and thus shouldn't be used with Distance Strike as that requires a melee attack, which is turned into a ranged attack.  Delay Damage (Silent) inflicts base Killing Hands damage with no chance of staging up since you make no attack.  IMO.

Could you quote the text where it says that the Delay Damage (Silent) doesn't require a melee test?
Just because the visual movement might be a flic of your finger, the delay damage power IIRC still requires a normal melee test.
Kanada Ten
You can read as well as I; if you think the Silent power requires a melee attack, then you do, if you don't you don't. Please quote where it says the test is required.
Cochise
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
You can read as well as I; if you think the Silent power requires a melee attack, then you do, if you don't you don't.  Please quote where it says the test is required.

The reason why I'm asking for a quote is, that my MitS is currently out of reach ...
As for me being required to provide a quote that this power requires a melee attack:

Sorry to say that, but the default assumption of any melee attack (an d delay damage is still an attack) is that you use the melee rules. Thus anything that doesn't use those rules should normally explicitly say so, wouldn't you agree?
toturi
QUOTE
The victim may not defend or counterattack, but the attacker cannot use Combat Pool.


I think a roll might be implied.
Cochise
That heavily implies an attack roll
Fortune
I gotta go with Cochise on this one. An Attack roll would be required (even if only for the chance of a rule-of-ones event!). biggrin.gif

I subscribe to the premise that the effects of an Adept's Magic should be almost completely internal, affecting only himself. As such, Distance Strike (in my opinion a completely external effect) does not exist as an Adept Power in my games. It would be valid if the Adept's arms grew 5 meters to strike the target though. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
A roll is required to handle possible staging as well, unless I'm seriously forgetting the wording here.

~J
Dakhran the Dark
I'm definitely in the "it works" camp. It's a powerful combo, but to the exclusion of much of the usual utility of the adept. Silent Delay Damage takes 2 PP, Distance Strike takes 2 PP, and if you geas the hell out of all your powers, you can get Deadly Killing Hands (4 PP) and make yourself a distance Dim Mak killer. But you're about as skilled and speedy as an uncybered mundane, and probably not long for the world if you're a shadowrunner. Might be a good way to spend those points later on, when you initiate and/or spend Karma...

However, the reason I like the combo so much is that I have a secret organization of assassins in my game that may end up as a contact and/or enemy to my PCs. A group of kunoichi (female ninjas) calling themselves Dofuku tend to use adept combos such as these, as well as more traditional and subtle mundane methods, to take out high profile targets...

[EDIT]
Oh, BTW, Delay Damage has to be sustained by the adept (+2 to all TNs, no Exclusive magical activites) or be dissipated harmlessly. It can also be astrally assensed on two or more successes, and can be dispelled. Not exactly undetectable...
Eyeless Blond
Meh. Delay Damage and Distance Strike sound more and more like spells to me, and thus less like adept powers, every time I hear about them/read the rules. I'm not sure I'd allow either in a game if I were a GM, particularly as SR goes to great lengths to put a specific purview on the powers and abilities of the adept.
SilverWolf_assassin
I have used it in two different characters and found that isn't as overpowering as you might think. Once you get masking and initiate a few times it becomes nearly the deadliest combo available. But you can only mask up to double your force in foci and spells, if I remember correctly, so you can only do it a few times before it is obvious to a precieving mage assuming you treat it as a spell of force equal to your magic rating or level of power points used while attacking the character.

In order to balance it, we usually just run a balanced campaign where you are only the star of the show once in a while. I also usually create a tie to the character that makes it sort of a plan B. It doesn't make for even a mediocre starting character if you just gun strait for it (you are usually left with low skills, no reflexes, and low strength). The two characters I made on this concept didn't complete killing hands or enough attack skill to really be disgusting till they were well passed 70 karma.

-----------------
Everything is in balance to the dark mind of a GM.
Luke Hardison
QUOTE (Fortune)
It would be valid if the Adept's arms grew 5 meters to strike the target though. smile.gif

Can I join your game and make a physmage with Arm Growth, Flamethrower [Geas:Gesture(spitting motion)], Fireball[same geas], and Levitate[Gaes:Gesture(Yoga)]
Kagetenshi
Only if I get to be a Chinese Interpol officer.

~J
toturi
Or a Thai kickboxer with one eye!

Alert! Alert! Topic Hijack! Topic Hijack! Notify Department of Matrix Security.
lacemaker
I agree with eyeless, at least with regard to distance strike - it just doesn't fit the concept the adept as someone who has a body transformed by magic IMO.

One can kind of imagine delay damage as a Fu power that happens to have magical special effects, but even that's a stretch...

In any case I'm a traditionalist when it comes to adepts, and don't even allow imrpoved ability for skills involving technology, like firearms and gunnery...
BitBasher
Haduken!
Shoryuken!
Tatsu Maki Sen Puu Kyaku!
<pose>

biggrin.gif
RedmondLarry
Our team doesn't allow the Silent type of Delayed Damage to work along with Distant Strike.

Distant Strike says the target gets to use Combat Pool in resisting, which means the target is aware of the attack. That seemed incompatible with the Silent type of Delayed Damage. Our players running Adepts were comfortable with this ruling.
Adarael
By the rules, the three way combo is valid. However, one or two of the powers (Delay Damage and Distance Strike) I believe cost *more* if the PC already posesses Killing Hands at any level, specifically to dissuade that combo.

You want a good combo for cheaper?

Step 1: Get Killing Hands S.
Step 2: Get Distance Strike.
Step 3: Get a martial art that allows for multistrike.

Technically, you should be able to multistrike people at a distance. With Strength S damage. Ouch.
toturi
Actually there is an even worse combo, though its validity may be suspect.

Killing Hands S
Distance Strike
Full Offense
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Adarael)
By the rules, the three way combo is valid. However, one or two of the powers (Delay Damage and Distance Strike) I believe cost *more* if the PC already posesses Killing Hands at any level, specifically to dissuade that combo.

Think that was second Ed.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (sidartha)
It does leave an astral signiture and any one assenceing the victim can see a unusual power build up on his/her aura and once discovered can attempt to dispell the effect.

Where does it say any of this leaves an astral sig?
spotlite
It doesn't. But it makes sense. Practically everything a mage does leaves one. the effect is noticeable in astral space on the target. I'd say if its that noticeable, there's a signature. But it doesn't say it specifically.

As far as Delay damage and requiring an attack test, it states at the beginning of the section on Delay Damage in the first paragraph that you make a standard test. The silent version says no combat pool but in no way contradicts the first paragraph, as it doesn't get into the specifics of the obvious and silent versions until the third paragraph, implying anything before that point would apply to the whole thing unless specified. For Obvious is states again a normal attack test, and for silent it says no combat pool. That seems pretty clear to me. But maybe its just me.

And indeed, in 3rd ed, there is no increased cost for buying those powers together. In SR2 it said you had to pay extra if you wanted to combine them. If you wanted to just use them seperately you could buy them at normal cost. I think the SR3 version is a bit broken in that case because it is SO powerful, so I would tend to go with the SR2 rules on that. It might be something worth submitting for the errata or FAQ though.

Kagetenshi
Disagree. For a nonguaranteed kill that will be easily seen and avoided by anyone with any real amount of magical security, it's more than expensive enough.

Hell, I've got some runners who don't have a mage in the party and with a little cred to an outside mage with a Treat spell they were able to save someone with a D Delay Damage sitting in him.

The best way to do it IMO is to nail the target with a two-minute Delay Damage as they're going to the bathroom. Most people don't carry medkits with them there.

~J
spotlite
I see what you're saying. I don' t agree, and since my disagreement is based on a gut feeling not logic, I'm not going to argue with you either! But I definitely see where you're coming from.
DarkShade
imho, the combo is good but not great for assassinations.

ok so you are a mile away when it goes off.. but then how do you *know* that the target gets killed??? we are talking about a 6-7 die roll tn4 which your gm will probably require you roll when the damage is actually done..
joe schmoe dies pretty easy from it, but is he `dead` enough for him not to be aided by anyone? that takes more than just a D result..
also I am pretty sure something like this would HAVE to leave a nice astral link at least from when you used the power until you actually had the damage delivered.. it is tied to you since you can discharge it at will it has to be.


DS
blakkie
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
The best way to do it IMO is to nail the target with a two-minute Delay Damage as they're going to the bathroom. Most people don't carry medkits with them there.

...unless the night before they ate the All You Can Eat buffet at Jose Jalapeno's Mexican Hot Bar. embarrassed.gif extinguish.gif
SilverWolf_assassin
Haha, sweet.

The combo is nice, especially if you are a ruthenium whore. But realistically explosives, drugs, or sniper bullets are far more reliable, as well is a good sword in the back. You end up having to base a character on something that only works most (or only some of the time, depending on your particular rulings) of the time. A far more effective assassin is a stealth adept with perhaps an enhanced skill or two in the right places, like weapons of any kind.

----------------------------
Charlie Foxtrot , drug addict
"That's imp. o. . ossible ocifer, I was commiteren a crime outa. . a . . a state."
sidartha
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
QUOTE (sidartha)
It does leave an astral signiture and any one assenceing the victim can see a unusual power build up on his/her aura and once discovered can attempt to dispell the effect.

Where does it say any of this leaves an astral sig?

Your right. It does not say explisitly that it leaves the astral signiture of the adapt behind.
However, since this is one of the few powers that break the Mind and Body are One aspect and since it does say that a charge is left behind to be asenced it follows that, just like any other magic based effect left on a person or area, this one carries an astral signature.
toturi
QUOTE (sidartha)
However, since this is one of the few powers that break the Mind and Body are One aspect and since it does say that a charge is left behind to be asenced it follows that, just like any other magic based effect left on a person or area, this one carries an astral signature.

Very good. Therefore tell me the Force of that power. Since there is no Force associated with the Delay damge power, it will leave a signature but since the Force is non-existant, there will be only a virtual signature left. A theorectical signature is left, but for all practical purposes, it isn't there.
Cochise
QUOTE (toturi)
Very good. Therefore tell me the Force of that power. Since there is no Force associated with the Delay damge power, it will leave a signature but since the Force is non-existant, there will be only a virtual signature left. A theorectical signature is left, but for all practical purposes, it isn't there.

There is a TN for dispelling such a charge which is the equivalent of "force" in that scenario ... (i.e. the power of the attack) ...
toturi
QUOTE (Cochise)
There is a TN for dispelling such a charge which is the equivalent of "force" in that scenario ... (i.e. the power of the attack) ...

Not Force per se. Force is required for astral signatures.
Cochise
Let's leave the fact that there's no explicit canon reference to adept powers having signatures aside for a sec, o.k.?

In the case of of delay damage we do have:
  • a perceivable magical charge ...
  • that charge can be dispelled like a spell
Now, as something magical that charge does have an aura (p. 161 SR3 as reference). Anything that has an aura can be assensed.
Successful assensing does provide infos like type of phenomenon, force, etc. and of course it normally may provide the signature of the person who caused the effect.

Now let's just assume that a magician who finds such a charge is not willing to blindly dispell a magical effect of unknown force. What will he do? Quite right, he'll assense the charge. And if he's successful he'll then have the more or less exakt force of that effect (which happens to be the power of the attack). So yes, delay damage does have a force equivalent that works just like the force of a spell for all purposes and intends of both assensing and dispelling.

Now let's come back to that signature part ...

The basis of the whole signature thing is, that a magically active entity leaves his signature on anything he or she influences with his / her magic. Now, as I stated earlier, for the vast majority of adepts that means that they'd constantly imprint their own signature onto themselves . I guess that's why assensing an adept allows the assensing person to gain infos on powers of an adept, while you won't get a detailed list of known spells when assensing a magician.
Now since the magical charge of delay damage already has properties that make it analogous to spells (aura, force, can be dispelled), it's not that much of stretch to say that it also includes the signature of an adept.

And there's even one more indication that even adepts and their power actually do have a signature: The rules on initiation. Adepts are not prohibited to take option 2 that provides them with magic +1 (and thus a new power point) and a signature change. There would be no need for opening that possibility to (normal) adepts, if the didn't have / leave signatures to a certain extend ...
toturi
My argument is while there can be a case for the Delay Damage to have a signature BEFORE it is "detonated", there is nothing to suggest that there is a signature left AFTER it has done its job.

Yes, you might be able to find out the astral signature of the guy who put that charge there while it is there but there is nothing to suggest there is a residual astral signature.
Cochise
QUOTE (toturi)
My argument is while there can be a case for the Delay Damage to have a signature BEFORE it is "detonated", there is nothing to suggest that there is a signature left AFTER it has done its job.

The problem still is: You already do have a force for all intends and purposes while the charge is there. The whole thing behaves like any other magical phenomenon.
So although there is no explcit rule that says that delay damage leaves a signature like spell or spirit would, it's not that much of a stretch to treat it that way ...

QUOTE
Yes, you might be able to find out the astral signature of the guy who put that charge there while it is there but there is nothing to suggest there is a residual astral signature.


Just compare it once more to a sustained spell: A sustained spell can be assensed or its signature, just as the person that was under the influence of the spell can be assensed for its signature for a certain amount of time even after the spell was ended.
We already established that the magical charge behaves like a spell while being sustained. All necessary components (like force) are present. Now, aside from an explicit statement, what would be the reason that this one magical phenomenon does not behave like all others (and no "it's magic" is not valid on this one)
toturi
QUOTE (Cochise @ Oct 9 2004, 10:33 PM)
QUOTE
Yes, you might be able to find out the astral signature of the guy who put that charge there while it is there but there is nothing to suggest there is a residual astral signature.


Just compare it once more to a sustained spell: A sustained spell can be assensed or its signature, just as the person that was under the influence of the spell can be assensed for its signature for a certain amount of time even after the spell was ended.
We already established that the magical charge behaves like a spell while being sustained. All necessary components (like force) are present. Now, aside from an explicit statement, what would be the reason that this one magical phenomenon does not behave like all others (and no "it's magic" is not valid on this one)

You have tried to established that the magical charge behaves like a spell while being sustained. I have not. There is spell-like properties, but it doesn't behave like a spell ie can be defended with Spell Defense and there is no drain. Dispelling the charge is the only specific instance where it is stated that behave like a spell in which it can be dispelled.

Do you also wish to say that just because Attribute Boost behaves in a spell-like manner, it can be dispelled?
Fortune
QUOTE (toturi)
Do you also wish to say that just because Attribute Boost behaves in a spell-like manner, it can be dispelled?

A case could be made for that.
toturi
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 10 2004, 12:43 AM)
Do you also wish to say that just because Attribute Boost behaves in a spell-like manner, it can be dispelled?

A case could be made for that.

A case can be made for the Dispelling of spell-like abilities (to use a term from the Other game) of Nature Spirits. Engulf can be Spell Defended, Concealment can be dispelled, etc.
Cochise
QUOTE (toturi)
You have tried to established that the magical charge behaves like a spell while being sustained. I have not.

But you accepted that those properties that I talked about are actually present?

QUOTE
There is spell-like properties, but it doesn't behave like a spell ie can be defended with Spell Defense and there is no drain.


See, that's the problem: Neither spell defense nor drain would be properties required to let that charge leave a signature:
Critterpowers cannot necessarily be defended against with Spell Defense .. nor do they usually cause Drain. However, a spirit who uses his powers on a being will leave a signature (that of its conjurer). Leaving a signature isn't limited to just spells.
All I had to establish was the fact that the charge already has all properties that are usually connected with leaving a signature on a target, except that one explicit sentence that sais, that it actually does leave a signature ...
So I repeat my question: What would be the reason why that charge doesn't leave a signature, just as any other magical phenomenon would?

QUOTE
Dispelling the charge is the only specific instance where it is stated that behave like a spell in which it can be dispelled.


And my point isn't necessarily that the charge must be 100% spell-like. My point is that it has all properties of magical phenomena that usually are connected with leaving behind a signature (which isn't restricted to just spells!)

QUOTE
Do you also wish to say that just because Attribute Boost behaves in a spell-like manner, it can be dispelled?


No, of course not , since that would be an reverse conclusion ...
toturi
I have agreed that while the charge is sustained, it has a signature. That is all.
Cochise
My question remains:

What would be the reason WHY that charge doesn't leave a signature on its target, just like any other magical phenomenon?
Especially if you agree that it has one while being sustained ...
toturi
Because it is not a spell. It is a Canon fact that it can be Assensed, therefore it is logical that it has a signature.
Cochise
QUOTE (toturi)
Because it is not a spell.

But that's not enough ...
It's not just spells that leave a signature ... The use of magic leaves signatures on targets ...

So I'm still waiting for a sound explaination why this magical phenomenon that is connected to the use of a magic on a target does not leave a signature ...

toturi
Very well. How about this?

QUOTE
Magical skills produce an astral signature on anything affected by them, ...


1) Unless it is possible for an adept to erase that signature, I do not think that there should be a signature after the fact.

2) Since the very nature of astral signatures allow them to be erased, in this case, I would rule that the astral signature of the charge is effectively erased when it is used without any action on the adept's part. Also remember there was no Skill used in the case of the Silent Delay Damage.

3) And I'm still waiting for a sound explanation why this magical phenomenon that is connected to the use of a non-magic skill/no skill at all on a target leaves a signature.
Cochise
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE
Magical skills produce an astral signature on anything affected by them, ...


1) Unless it is possible for an adept to erase that signature, I do not think that there should be a signature after the fact.


Why should it be automatically possible for an Adept to erase a signature?
Look at the adept of the magician's way: He'll leave signatures with his spells and won't be able to remove them unless he also has astral perception ...

QUOTE
2) Since the very nature of astral signatures allow them to be erased, in this case, I would rule that the astral signature of the charge is effectively erased when it is used without any action on the adept's part.


And where would the prcendece for that be?

QUOTE
Also remember there was no Skill used in the case of the Silent Delay Damage.


Now we're finally getting onto something, but of course there was a skill used in the case of delayed Damage (silent): the unarmed attack ...
The real question is however ...

QUOTE
3) And I'm still waiting for a sound explanation why this magical phenomenon that is connected to the use of a non-magic skill/no skill at all on a target leaves a signature.


if "magical skills" in that rule really require the use of a "magical skill" in game-terms or not!?
The creation of a hermetic circle isn't connected to the use of a "magical skill" in game-terms either. However such a circle will retain its creator's signature permanently. And as I mentioned before: Even spirits do leave a signature, albeit normally the use of their powers doesn't involve the dircet use of "magical skills" in game-terms either: For example a fire elemental will use it's innate flamethrower spell "as if" he used sorcery ... but he doesn't actually use sorcery ... Other spirit powers stray iven farther away from that "as if"-szenario (though the mechanics stay the same)
Fortune
Wouldn't a Ward retain it's creator's signature? What Magical Skill does it take to create a Ward?
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