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Cochise
QUOTE (Fortune)
Wouldn't a Ward retain it's creator's signature?

Of course it would ...

QUOTE
What Magical Skill does it take to create a Ward?


Thanks for adding another good example ...
toturi
QUOTE (Cochise @ Oct 10 2004, 12:04 AM)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 9 2004, 06:00 PM)
Wouldn't a Ward retain it's creator's signature?

Of course it would ...

QUOTE
What Magical Skill does it take to create a Ward?


Thanks for adding another good example ...

Precisely, no skill but directly used the Magic Attribute for the roll. However, there was never any roll in the Delay Damage Silent and it is not a skill, it is a Power. If you want to I could conceed the point for the Obvious, but I will reiterate that Unarmed Combat is not a Magical Skill.

Using the example of Wards, does a Ward which has a Astral signature carry that signature after it has been dropped? Does a Hermetic Circle/Shamanic Lodge has an astral sig after it is turned off?

There are some exceptions to the Astral signature-Magical skill rule, and they are either common sense(Dispelling doesn't make you create another astral signature) or explicitly stated.
Cochise
QUOTE (toturi)
Precisely, no skill but directly used the Magic Attribute for the roll. However, there was never any roll in the Delay Damage Silent and it is not a skill, it is a Power. If you want to I could conceed the point for the Obvious, but I will reiterate that Unarmed Combat is not a Magical Skill.

No roll involved for Delay damage? Sure there was the melee attack, wasn't it?
And just to compare it: Engulf is a power. It's applied via melee attack and doesn't use another die roll either ... I guess then, that this power doesn't leave a signature either?

QUOTE
Using the example of Wards, does a Ward which has a Astral signature carry that signature after it has been dropped? Does a Hermetic Circle/Shamanic Lodge has an astral sig after it is turned off?


There's no indiaction that it doesn't ... Signatures are in general ruled to last a certain amount after the effect ceased to exist ...

QUOTE
There are some exceptions to the Astral signature-Magical skill rule, and they are either common sense(Dispelling doesn't make you create another astral signature) or explicitly stated.


Where does it say that dispelling doesn't create a signature? It's the use of a magical skill, isn't it? We're missing two things here: An explictit statement that those things you say don't have lasting signatures and an explicit statement that delay damage (or adept powers in general) do leave a signature.
So we're stuck with the following: The things you claim not to have a lasting signature do not have an according ruling. The thing I suggest to potentially have a lasting signature has properties that are identical to other magical phenomena that do have a lasting signature ...
I'll leave it up to others to decide which one of us has the stronger arguments ...
Sabosect
You know, the bad thing about this is the vengeance part. When corp execs figure out you can whack their Johnson without even a chance to stop you, they'll probably stop pointing their Johnsons in your direction. Or make it a point to protect their Johnsons as much as possible. Imagine your surprise when you go to whack their Johnsons and find guards blocking you.

Just my 0.0005 nuyen.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Cochise)
QUOTE (toturi)
Precisely, no skill but directly used the Magic Attribute for the roll. However, there was never any roll in the Delay Damage Silent and it is not a skill, it is a Power. If you want to I could conceed the point for the Obvious, but I will reiterate that Unarmed Combat is not a Magical Skill.

No roll involved for Delay damage? Sure there was the melee attack, wasn't it?
And just to compare it: Engulf is a power. It's applied via melee attack and doesn't use another die roll either ... I guess then, that this power doesn't leave a signature either?

QUOTE
There are some exceptions to the Astral signature-Magical skill rule, and they are either common sense(Dispelling doesn't make you create another astral signature) or explicitly stated.


Where does it say that dispelling doesn't create a signature? It's the use of a magical skill, isn't it? We're missing two things here: An explictit statement that those things you say don't have lasting signatures and an explicit statement that delay damage (or adept powers in general) do leave a signature.
So we're stuck with the following: The things you claim not to have a lasting signature do not have an according ruling. The thing I suggest to potentially have a lasting signature has properties that are identical to other magical phenomena that do have a lasting signature ...
I'll leave it up to others to decide which one of us has the stronger arguments ...

It can be argued that Delay Damage Silent does not have a roll. But for the sake of argument, I'll concede that it does.

Perhaps I can ask how do you erase an astral signature? Oops, did you just erase the old signature and create a new one?

I never claimed that "the things you claim not to have a lasting signature do not have an according ruling" but I do claim that things that can be assensed have an astral signature, whether there is a residual signature is what I am disputing. I am stating that unless the rules say that something leaves an astral signature, I am not going to say that it does. I am not disputing that things that may be assensed have an astral signature.
Cochise
QUOTE (toturi)
Perhaps I can ask how do you erase an astral signature? Oops, did you just erase the old signature and create a new one?


Possibly, since it doesn't state otherwise wink.gif

QUOTE
I never claimed that "the things you claim not to have a lasting signature do not have an according ruling" but I do claim that things that can be assensed have an astral signature, whether there is a residual signature is what I am disputing.


And that's the point: You brought forth examples where you implied that those things do not have a residual signature (astral barrieres), after the effect ends. Now the thing is that there's no indication of instant removal of signatures once an effect ends. The only explicit rules on signatures do have residual signatures for a certain amount of time, after the magical effect ended.

QUOTE
I am stating that unless the rules say that something leaves an astral signature, I am not going to say that it does.


Again: the rules already say that the use of "magical skills" always leaves signatures. And "magical skills" have turned out not to be just the use of sorcery, conjuring, etc. (skills that are listet as "magical skill" in game terms) ...
Now delay damage fits the pattern of all things that leave a signature ... So once more the question: Why would this magical phenomenon behave totally different from all others?

QUOTE
I am not disputing that things that may be assensed have an astral signature.


And I didn't say you were disputing that wink.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Cochise @ Oct 10 2004, 08:39 PM)
Again: the rules already say that the use of "magical skills" always leaves signatures. And "magical skills" have turned out not to be just the use of sorcery, conjuring, etc. (skills that are listet as "magical skill" in game terms) ...
Now delay damage fits the pattern of all things that leave a signature ... So once more the question: Why would this magical phenomenon behave totally different from all others?

Because it does not fit all of the defining characteristics of things that leave a residual signature.

1) It is not make use of a Magical Skill, but a usually mundane one.

2) It does not cause drain.

What are the defining characteristics of things that leave a residual signature in your opinion?

Yes, there is an astral signature while being sustained. So are you saying a sustained spell leaves another residual signature after it stops being sustained?
Cochise
QUOTE (toturi)
Because it does not fit all of the defining characteristics of things that leave a residual signature.


Really?

QUOTE
1) It is not make use of a Magical Skill, but a usually mundane one.


Same is true for Engulf or the creation of a ward (which doesn't use a skill at all)

QUOTE
2) It does not cause drain.


Same with Engulf ... Drain is not a necessary aspect of a magical phenomenon to cause an astral signature ...

QUOTE
What are the defining characteristics of things that leave a residual signature in your opinion?


Interestingly enough just two things: force and a connection to "magical skills" where magical skills still aren't restricted to "magical skills" as game term for sorcery, conjuring, etc. ... And delay damage is connected to a force equal to the attacking adepts strength ..
And its magical nature can not be denied, can it?

QUOTE
Yes, there is an astral signature while being sustained. So are you saying a sustained spell leaves another residual signature after it stops being sustained?


The text on signatures is pretty explicit on that. Signatures last an amount of hours equal to force of the effect after the effect ended ...

You stop sustaining a spell (or our magical charge) => its effect ends (with delivering the blow in case of the delay damage power) and it then lasts for [force] hours ... And as the possibility of assensing and dispelling the magical charge already showed: the charge actually has a force, since if it hadn't one, it couldn't be properly assensed nor dispelled ...
toturi
QUOTE (Cochise @ Oct 10 2004, 09:22 PM)
Really?

Same is true for Engulf or the creation of a ward (which doesn't use a skill at all)

Same with Engulf ... Drain is not a necessary aspect of a magical phenomenon to cause an astral signature ...

Interestingly enough just two things: force and a connection to "magical skills" where magical skills still aren't restricted to "magical skills" as game term for sorcery, conjuring, etc. ... And delay damage is connected to a force equal to the attacking adepts strength ..
And its magical nature can not be denied, can it?

QUOTE
Yes, there is an astral signature while being sustained. So are you saying a sustained spell leaves another residual signature after it stops being sustained?


The text on signatures is pretty explicit on that. Signatures last an amount of hours equal to force of the effect after the effect ended ...

You stop sustaining a spell (or our magical charge) => its effect ends (with delivering the blow in case of the delay damage power) and it then lasts for [force] hours ... And as the possibility of assensing and dispelling the magical charge already showed: the charge actually has a force, since if it hadn't one, it couldn't be properly assensed nor dispelled ...

Yes, really.

Your defination is not explicit enough and there is no limitation to magical skill as you might put it. Someone using Assensing will leave an astral signature, a vampire Essense draining will leave a signature, a spirit being Immune to Normal Weapons will have a signature. Your defination is simply too broad. I interprete it to be as long as the rules do not explicitly state that there be a residual signature or is not a product of a Canon Magical Skill, there is none.

Furthermore, Assensing is not based on Force. I see Dispelling as used in the case of Delay Damage being a specific case. There is no Force (there is but that is in another game biggrin.gif) in this case, that the Power is similar to Force is just coincidence. Or the rules would have stated that the Dispelling Test would be made to a Force equal to that of the Power of the attack. The passage in the BBB for Dispelling explicitly uses the word Force, there is no mention in that passage of TN. That there is clear and explicit mention of TN in Delay Damage shows the differentiation between TN and Force, and hence the Power of Delay Damage and a sustained spell.

By the way, using your interpretation of the wording in the Assensing section, then wouldn't summoning a spirit leave a signature after the summoner used up its services/timed out/etc? Summoning a Familair wouldn't leave a signature unless it goes free?
Cochise
QUOTE (toturi)
Your defination is not explicit enough and there is no limitation to magical skill as you might put it.

My definition? That's the sole definition given by the rules on signatures wink.gif

QUOTE
Someone using Assensing will leave an astral signature, a vampire Essense draining will leave a signature, a spirit being Immune to Normal Weapons will have a signature.


Exactly ...

QUOTE
Your defination is simply too broad.


You see, it's not "my" definition. It's the definition given by the rules ...

QUOTE
I interprete it to be as long as the rules do not explicitly state that there be a residual signature, there is none.


That's the part I tried to point out to you: The genereal rules on signatures do not limit signatures to spells. Virtually everything will cause a signature when magic is invoilved. So my question still is (and so far I have the feeling that you didn't answer that question): Why does delay damage behave different from every other magical phenomenon? Is it really just the missing of an explicit statement? The impliciations by the general rules can be seen as more than enough for an identical behaviour that I'd rather demand an explicit exclusion from leaving signatures instead of an explicit inclusion that can be established via implication as well.

QUOTE
Furthermore, Assensing is not based on Force.


I didn't say that wink.gif
I pointed out that the magical charge can be assensed and that such an attempt will tell you the force of the effect wink.gif

QUOTE
I see Dispelling as used in the case of Delay Damage being a specific case.


And yet it is still based on the force of the effect ...and force being one aspect of signatures ... you can complete that thought on your own I guess ...


toturi
No, the TN is explicitly seperated from Force. You refuse to acknowledge that fact.

My answer to your question was as long as the rules DO NOT explicitly state that there is a residual signature and that it is not a product of any Magical Skill, there is no residual astral signature. Engulf does not have an astral signature. Wards do because it is explictly stated that they do. Delay Damage is neither a product of Magical Skills nor is it explicitly stated that it has a residual signature.
Cochise
QUOTE (toturi)
No, the TN is explicitly seperated from Force. You refuse to acknowledge that fact.

Where is it separated from "force"? Care to quote?
toturi
QUOTE (Cochise)
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 10 2004, 05:23 PM)
No, the TN is explicitly seperated from Force. You refuse to acknowledge that fact.

Where is it separated from "force"? Care to quote?

P149 MitS Delay Damage - No mention of Force.

P184 SR3 Dispelling - Force is explicit.
Cochise
QUOTE (toturi)
P149 MitS Delay Damage - No mention of Force.

P184 SR3 Dispelling - Force is explicit.

So ? Force is explicit for dispelling ... and the charge of delay damage can be dispelled ... Now tell me: How do you dispell it like a spell, if the effect doesn't have a force (since your saying that force isn't mentioned)? And how do you determine the TN for that dispelling?

Sorry to say that, but even tough delay damage doesn't explicitly mention "force" there's yet another implictation by the simple fatc how it's dealt with ...
toturi
No, as I said, the Dispelling Test is for the Delay Damage is a special case, in which there is no Force involved. The Power of the attack is only analogous for the Dispelling Test. Furthermore, it is not Dispelled "like a spell", it is dispelled like a Delay Damage charge.

How do I make it more plain? One is a sword, the other an arrow. Just because both can be blocked by a shield doesn't mean that an arrow looks the same as a sword.
Fortune
Why would the obviously magical effects of Delayed Damage be the sole exception to all these rules?
toturi
What rules?

As I said, the test for signature is simply Magical Skills or Explicitly Stated in rules. Very simple.

And for residual signatures, there needs be a Force.
spotlite
Um. How do you dispell something if you don't have a force rating to dispell? It says delay damage can be dispelled. Ergo, it must technically have a force rating, since the target number for dispelling is the force of the effect, defined in this case as the power of the attack with a drain equal to the damage code. Sounds like a magical effect to me, and it sounds like it would leaves a signature, which would fade over time as per normal rules once the effect has disappeared.

as for a hermetic circle or lodge - for one thing a lodge doesn't get turned off, surely? And for another it states clearly that circles and lodges always (emphasis Wizkids, not mine) retain the signature of the owner and neither of those require a magical skill test. It does fall into the 'explicitly stated' category though.

Under the description of what assensing an astral signature will tell you, the type of spell or spirit can be discerned, implying spirits do indeed leave a signature, or at the very least do so when they've used a power deliberately. It also says the inherent signatures of an existing spell, spirit or foci cannot be erased, so spirits definately have a signature in the first place. It seems logical to me that if they then use a power -certainly one which must be used deliberately, immune to normal weapons not falling into that category - they will leave an imprint of their signature on the subject or area on which that power was used. The signature or otherwise of Delay Damage is not specifically covered because its in MITS which came out after the BBB. they should have mentioned it in the delay damage description, they didn't. I would say the fact you can assense it and dispell it leans very heavily toward the 'it has a signature' camp.

Having said all of that, when discussing astral signatures in the BBB, there is no mention whatsoever of adept powers. This could be an oversight, or it could imply that adept powers simply leave no signature, period. If the latter is the case I would rule its very silly in light of all the supporting evidence that if its a magical effect of any kind not otherwise specifically designed to remove signatures in the first place, then it has a signature. But by canon, there is no mention specifically of the power leaving a signature. But there is nothing anywhere which says adept powers do not leave one either.

At the moment you seem to be arguing over a point that can't be proved either way. There's too much missing information.
toturi
QUOTE (spotlite)
Um. How do you dispell something if you don't have a force rating to dispell? It says delay damage can be dispelled. Ergo, it must technically have a force rating, since the target number for dispelling is the force of the effect, defined in this case as the power of the attack with a drain equal to the damage code. Sounds like a magical effect to me, and it sounds like it would leaves a signature, which would fade over time as per normal rules once the effect has disappeared.

That is what Cochise is arguning for. But what I am stating is that the fact that although a Dispelling Test is made and the game mechanics of the that test is similar to that of a normal Dispelling Test, there is no mention of Force in the description of Delay Damage. Ergo, since there is no Force and there is no use of a Magical Skill as defined in the Skills section or in any of the subsequent Rules expansions (MitS), there is no residual signature. Also given that the charge may be Assensed but has no Force, the mage will not know what Force it is.
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