heres an idea for a Heavy Pistol. The FCU cost is listed beneath the modification.

Ceramic Components
-.75
Improved Concealability (2)
-.5
Improved Power (1)
-.25
Weight Decrease (6)
None



Engraving
None
Internal Smartlink-II
.5
Extended Clip
None
Personalized Grip
None

Final Stats

Power
10
Damage Level
Moderate
Mode
Semi Automatic
Concealability
7
Weight
2.755 + or - some
Ammunition Capacity
20
Ammunition Loading
Clip/Clip
Mount
Barrel, Top
FCU
.5
DPV
595
Total Cost
¥2975
Recoil Compensation
1

A perfect example of why GM's get approval over all firearms!

Hell no.

This is exactly why those rules are broken.

What's the matter with this again?

~J

Paying nearly 3K for that? I guess it is true what people say about paying for what you get.

I'd buy it if it had a snazzy name and came in custom colors.

Make it in Rutherium polymers and you'll get any colour you want.

My guess he has issues with the lethality of an Assult Rifle firing EX-EX (albeit with a slightly undersized magazine) using only standard rounds, while having the concealability envied by a light pistol carrying that much ammo. With a concealing holster and long coat it's has what, a conceal of 13? He gets his hands on Ex-Ex for it and he might as well name it a "Noisy Cricket".

For only $3000 that's beyond a steal of a deal.

P.S. To his credit though he didn't give it a burst-fire mode.

and remember that the Ruthenium would add +4 to the conceal, making the conceal of this gun somewhere around 11.

but only as long as it is clearly displayed where every one can see it.
Because the gun wouldn't get the modifyer for being invisible if the gun was where it could not be seen, like under a jacket?

Why not? It is a Canon weapon. I see it as a good weapon to benchmark against.

The big problem is that no customization options mention loss of concealability. Put a bipod, gas-vents and laser sight on your assault rifle ans still it fits under the coat. The things I mentioned have a concealability loss listed for them under their parts in the book but a big clip doesn't seem to matter. Anyone think This could have a concealability of 7? By the rules..........

I've always add the concealability loss to the weapons with the appropriate attachments. Just that the Concealability Rules are in a different part of the book.

Me too, but buying a bigger clip is not an option. There are no rules for how much concealability is lost for a 50 rnd pistol mag.

OK, I admit I do not get the reference/joke. So what the hell are you talking about, Raygun? What's with the vision chart?

As I explained before, if there are rules in the book, leave the Real World behind and use the books. If there aren't, I am comfortable using RL.

I consider the CC gun construction rules to be the height of irony. They were written in order to allow people to customize their characters with a unique weapon...but they effectively removed all uniqueness.

Look at the Ares Predator and the Browning Max Power. It's basically pure personal preference which one you want at char gen - One's a little bit more concealable and , weighs just a little bit less than the other, but one has a larger magazine. The CC rules make that decision go away - You can now have a gun that is is lighter, more concealable, and a larger magazine than both. There's little reason for the Ares Predator or Browning Max Power to exist anymore.

You no longer look at the Morrissey Elite and go "Man, that conceal 7 and a laser sight is great...but a magazine of 5...". Now you look at it and go "I could make a gun like that, but with a spoiler, hood ornament, and spinning hubcaps and still have a conceal of 7."

You no longer look at the Ruger Super Warhawk for even a split second. The 10 power doesn't mean anything - You can have 10 power with any pistol and you don't need to have a conceal of 4 either.

The moment you can build a gun that is "Like X, but with Y too", the system is broken. It doesn't matter if you view it's balanced because it's high-priced or your GM can be a prick and take it from you or your GM can say "Oh, Lonestar knows who you are now." "But I didn't register the gun with anyone." "It doesn't matter, they're at your front door now" because he could before too or whatever the fuck else you want to say makes it balanced. It removes choices and uniqueness from characters. It shouldn't exist.

The CC rules should be much stingier with FCU points. Doing so would much more accurately reflect the weapons already in the SR universe. Possibly some kind of 'internal mount' system. Instead of having a pool of FCU points, you have a certain number of 'internal mounts'. Some things might take up multiple 'mounts' on certain chasis. For example, Burst Fire on a pistol might take up all but one of the 'mounts' on a pistol.

My personal preference? Compare your gun to other guns. If it's flat-out better than the others, ask yourself what the problem is: Does the other gun suck or is your gun too good?

Modesitt, you forgot there is also an Availability and Street Index tacked on, in addition to the cost. If you want to use the rules, (I've said this many times), you got to use all of them. Why can't you have a gun that can do both X AND Y? You can have a aeroplane that is both a fighter and a bomber, can't you?

All the factors of the gun must have equal weight, When you say, I do not care about this or that you are effectively ignoring those rules. I could do the same and say I couldn't be bothered about how powerful or how many rounds the gun has and be fixated on the cost. It would equally be just as ridiculous!

I was replying to Modesit on his point that he was comfortable ignoring the gun cost and other factors but not that the gun could have high power and other stuff.

I think that the rules needs be re-written too, but at least it is consistant. And it fits the current Canon guns in the BBB.

I wouldn't have a huge problem with a custom-made gun outclassing an off-the-shelf pistol. After all, that's why you're paying all of that money to get a weapon made specially for you - you want the best. But you would need a good armorer contact to do that kind of work (one with a facility), and honestly, I would probably not allow characters to have custom guns at char-gen. Like custom spells, decks, and vehicles, they would be something to be introduced later in the game. Plus, the disadvantage of custom-made stuff is that it is easier to trace back to you.


As far as the big clip goes, I would use the rules for Improved Ammo Capacity, giving a penalty of 1 to the Concealability for every 4 extra rounds, rounded down. This would give the pistol above a Concealability of 5, which is much more reasonable for a high-powered pistol that holds 20 rounds.

I see your point, but I don't see BitBasher's.

~J

I had a point?

Really I was just commenting that it's very possible to make totally broken guns with that system. I feel the fun made by the OP is horribly broken. GM has final say in allowing things made with the system. I, therefore would never allow this gun.

It's concealibility is FAR too high to be plausible with that ammo capacity.

I actually have retooled the entire firearms creation system so that it makes sense in canon compared to the rest of the guns already made.

So what exactly is the problem with it? A lot of the arguments (aside from the improved concealability / extended clip combo, which should clearly be mutually exclusive) amount to "I don't like it".

And since when is concealability such a big deal anyway? 95% of the time, runners that carry this sort of heavy hardware frequent places where people either a) Know they have guns and don't care (most runner hangouts) b) Might know the runners have weapons, but can't/won't do anything about it as long as there's no trouble because it's not worth the risk (small businesses, etc.) and c) Won't let the runners through the door period, or not without a serious physical search (corporate facilities).

The concealability complaint is about option c. Base TN to spot of 7, in a concealable holster bumps it up to 9. Hold out pistols will be taken away before that thing, so you can sneak it's heavy firepower through the front door (unless the ammo gives you away).

You're all missing something here I feel. If you design a gun from the CC, its like designing a vehicle - a player is highly unlikely to have the resources to design and put together such a weapon.

So players can design any damn thing they like, but it doesn't mean they can actually have it. If a GM designs it, and it outstrips everything on the market then its their decision to include it in the game, and to set the price if it is a production model and not a prototype (and I've designed some pretty OTT guns from the CC and frankly they all have disadavantages. Weight is usually the main one - if you're using proper hauling the load rules most characters simply won't want to carry anything as heavy as they invariably turn out to be. THe price tends to be far in excess of the guns in the book and the availability is pretty much whatever you as a GM want it to be).

The Shadowrun Supplemental had some really nice modifier tables for full production prices which I really like to get over that 'prototype' feel on the price, but I've never found anything that's been created using the system in the CC unbalancing to the point where it ruins the game, for various reasons, such as what a character has had to go through to get their shiny new gun, especially if its their own design. They'll have had to jump through so many hoops SOMEone will know they've got it, which is a risk in itself.

The gun in question though, I don't like purely on the basis of concealability and weight, even if they are canon - as a GM I wouldn't veto it, but I might rule that a weapon like that would require custom ammo as well if the weight and concealability were essential to the gun's purpose.

just imho, as usual.

when does concealability matter???
whenever you walk past a police officer, thats when.. ie OFTEN.

also when you go to the supermarket, to the grocery store, to buy cigarrettes, to the post office, to mac do.. when you meet with someone, when you go watch a movie, etc etc.. if people notice a visible gun on someone who is obviously NOT a security or police officer they will react differently.. that pedestrian , john nobody who sees you enter a building with a gun in your jacket may jsut decide to alert the star if he is feeling a bit paranoid <and in SR there are lots of paranoid people, with good reason>. if that same john nobody sees an odd group of people packing guns enter the building in front.. will he call the cops? I know I might..


of course, if you are out of town or in a merc campaign, concealability doesnt mean as much..,

DS

We have a van. We have had no cause to use public transportation yet.

~J

Our van never gets pulled over by the police, no. Why, do you regularly get pulled over for no apparent reason? If it did, either we'd be underprepared for a run or we'd be shooting or bribing our way out anyway.

We haven't taken a run in Downtown yet, if that happens you'll have a point. Otherwise, there are plenty of places to let people out that are out of view. Office parks are filled with them.

Edit: yeah, what mmu1 said.

~J

You're forgetting about bored coppers just deciding to pull that guy in the nice shiny van over just cos the bastard obviously earns more than me...

If they do that and start to thinking these guys might be those shadowrunner terrorist types, they aren't going to do anything else. They'll give you back your fake ID nice as pie and let you on their way. Then they'll call in the anti terrorist squad and sic 'em on you. Its not so much a question of the runners getting caught in the street generally (but I think the same would apply if you wander around downtown brandishing assault weaponry with your spurs popped out, gliding along like you don't have bones cos of your move by wire), but there's absolutely nothing to say that a bored pair of cops who haven't handed out a ticket all night might not just decide to pick on you because you swerved a little back there.

The coppers don't know that you swerved because you were 'interrogating' the hostage and one of his flailing limbs caught the driver in the back of the head, they just know they've got an excuse to pull you and try and get you for some misdemeanor. LS is a corp remember, and that means targets. Lots of targets. They'll have to hand out x tickets per patrol, administer x number of beatings to SINless per week and so on (well, maybe not that last one... officially).

But at this point we're purely on the basis of your interpretation of the cops, so it could be anything depending on how the GM decides those particular coppers are feeling right now.

You mean the nice shiny van with the Joe's Plumbing Company logo on it? Or the Inspectional Services Department logo? Or what about the Kalid's Fresh Meats logo?

People with VCR-3s and a Skill of 6 don't swerve much, especially not with vehicles with adjusted handling 0. Hell, a VCR 1 and Handling 4 car ought to stick to a normal road like superglue.

Remember how much a squad equipped to deal with runners costs to deploy in hazard pay alone. Multiply that if anyone gets hurt. Increase it exponentially if someone gets killed.

~J

I didn't say it was likely, just not unheard of. Cops pull over works vans all the time, and while you're absolutely right about the rigger not swerving that was just an example, hence the specific detail about the hostage. Come on, you're telling me that a copper can't find SOME reason if he really wants to? 'h'mm. His tires look a bit bald and i dunno bob, did that taillight look out to you? No? Must be an intermittent fault, we'd better stop 'em. Y'know, just to let them know...'

All I'm saying is you can take all the precautions you like which no doubt will help immensely, but there's no accounting for people. I'm not suggesting a GM should ever make it a frequent event because that's just throwing obstacles in for the sake of obstacles, and I'm not at all trying to demean the job police in the vast majority of countries do, but its a private, corporate police force we're talking about here. The coppers still view themselves as coppers, and most will have a lot of integrity, but when, for example, this month's bonus that you depend on to pay for your apartment rests on you making so many arrests per week, you're gonna start looking for reasons to make arrests, aren't you?

If you're not the sort of GM who bothers with random encounters, then its only going to happen if its scripted or if you do something really stupid, but I am (that kind of GM I mean. Not stupid. Though that's another of those debatable points, right?). I could tell you all about how I work out what encounter comes under what conditions, but its irrelevant. Everyone's got their own method for that kind of thing. I'm just saying that you cannot 100% avoid the chance of someone like the cops taking an interest in you except by simply not being there for them to take an interest in. You can certainly reduce the odds heavily in your favour, but that's it imo.

If my character is going to use her drones without floating them halfway across Chicago, she's going to have to go by van. If she's going by van, she's already there to be stopped. If the drones are in the van, there's already something to be suspicious about. At that point, what matters is one of two groups of things. Either A) we have both enough firepower to obliterate whoever pulled us over and the ability to escape before our descriptions can be transmitted or backup can arrive, or B) the cops are bribable, we've got enough cred on-hand to bribe them, and we've got someone who can convince them to take our bribe.

If we leave everything obvious and suspicious at home, we've got a van and some pistols. Gee, we're going to have a really successful run with those.

I suppose a summary of what we're trying to get at is: this pistol really doesn't decrease the risk we're taking by any significant amount, and if we're already taking those kinds of risks, in most cases we can get something more effective for the same amount of risk.

~J

oh yeah, I'd agree with that completely.

In the CC gun creation section, they don't specifically mention concealability modifiers for a lot of options/parts.

However, when putting together the firemarm program for the Mac, I went through several books looking up concealment modifiers for the various part, and added them in. So if you added a Gas Vent IV (CC, pg 80), it gives you a -2 to concealment (pg 35).

IMHO, there are no freebie concealment bonuses just because the gun is custom made. CC Custom Gun building doesn't say there is a concealment modifier, and it doesn't say it concealment doesn't apply. I think it's silly to assume building the gun yourself makes the Gas Vent (for example) any less concealable than adding one to a stock gun.

I also agree that starting characters should not have custom built guns, unless they have that skill, and the resources to build it. At that point it's GM's job to make the player roll those skills to see if they can successfully build the weapon, and how long it takes before decided the player can have that weapon, and when.

However, customized guns is another issue - adding a smartlink to a stock weapon, shock pads, or a laser sight etc should be OK - as these are firearm accessories.