Was that errata'd, or otherwise spelled out in some rule book?

Actually, it's closer to 6 or 6.5 ECU for hydraulic jacks of high rating. That really chews up the elbow room on synthetic limbs.

It's not that much of an advantage, not 6.5 ECU worth.

Sure. Where is that discussion? The search feature doesn't turn up a lot of threads on hydraulic jacks.

Considering it takes 5 ECU per limb just to get a +1 Armor bonus, I'd say it's about right. Sure, there's better stuff you could do with all that ECU, but that doesn't mean it should take up less ECU in and of itself... especially considering it takes up over 1 point of Essence on its own as a regular implant. Hell, even Retractable Cyberskates take up nearly as much ECU.

I believe in MM there is something that says these types of modifications must be taken for each leg. There are others that have this requirement too, but your can get Individual CyberLegs/Limbs but can suffer from unbalanced Quickness and Stregnth.

HJ5 does give you and extra 5 dice for Athletics (running) tests (and for Stealth for some reason), so with a base skill of 6, that's 11 dice to improve your running movement. With a Q=6 and say 5 successes that's a 11 for the purposes for running, 17 max, that's alot of ground to cover (5.8 m/s compared to your regular 2.0 m/s).

Also helps with jumping distance (+20 to max distance per level) so a HJ5 would offer +100% running-jump distance (Q=6, then maxJump=12).

There is worse cyberware.

I've been frustrated too with the lack of consistant use for pluralism with referring to CyberLimb(s) and gear that goes in it. Honestly, we rarely used CyberLimbs until SR3 so I going off what I thought I remembered reading.

I'll have to check it out at home and get back to you, but I could be mistaken.

Well, no rush, it's going to be a while before the "jacked up" (har har) character is used, but the research on your part would be appreciated.

The rules never state it specifically. It's simple logic. Yes, purchase of the implant may imply that it applies to multiple limbs, but that doesn't mean it doesn't count against the ECU of each limb. Especially since -- stay with me one more time -- there are no rules for splitting ECU between multiple limbs. Your assuption that you split them evenly between the limbs has even less backing it up.

Let's look at some of the other implants that obviously come in pairs and see how they fare.

Cyberskates: 4 ECU for the retractable pair, which is the same space requirement as a Cyberholster. Considering skates are about the same size as a pistol (if not a touch bigger) and that it also includes all the retraction and bracing hardware for the implant, 4 ECU is about right per limb. 2 ECU would be wholly inappropriate.

Retractable Climbing Claws: While similar to Hand Razors, Climbing Claws are designed so that they can help you hold your entire body weight. Logically, that means it comes with quite a bit more reinforcing for the fingers and hands housing the claws that simple Hand Razors. Retractable Hand Razors are only 0.5 ECU per limb, whereas the next step up -- Retractable Hand Blades -- are 1.0 ECU per limb, it's not a big stretch to assume that Retractable Climbing Claws are closer to the 1.0 ECU end of the spectrum. And lo' and behold, look at that... they are.

So, since those two make perfect sense at its listed book rating per limb, and the ECU rating for Hydraulic Jacks make sense on a per limb rating (4-6 makes sense, 2-3 does not)... and since, once again, the rules never once even hint that ECU limits are ever listed in pairs and that you have to split them up between limbs... well, Occam's Razor.

Oh, as a side note, Foot Anchors and Hand Razors (retractable or not) are not bought in pairs. Technically, neither are Climbing Claws, which would explain why they're not mentioned as (per limb) on the ECU table.

I said it was arguable, not that I was defending that point of view. But I don't see you pointing out the other inconsistencies, like what the Essence cost is for only having it install in a single meat leg and a single cyberleg. Or what? Does that mean you have to admit that the author didn't even think of that when putting the rules together? Or is your argument so weak that you're simply going to continue to ignore it?

There's two -- count 'em, two -- implants that function this way. Both make complete and total sense at their listed ECU ratings per limb, but are woefully undervalued if they're supposed to be split in half and equally distributed between multiple limbs (which, once again, has no backing or precedence whatsoever anywhere in the rules).

That's very likely the case. You'll note that the Damage Code they list is a base Damage Code, much like the case for Hand Razors. But, just like Hand Razors, you still have to buy them in pairs if you want them in both hands. In fact, you get a bonus to your Damage Code when you do. But I'm sure you'll continue to ignore that point, too.

Oh, but in case you don't ignore it and instead go spouting off with your "they're using plural terms!" spiel, a "climbing claw" would be a single talon on a single finger, not all of the claws of an entire hand.

Nice bit of work there completely ignoring the logic above. Gotta love anyone who's entire argument revolves around "they used an S!!!" and little else. No logic. No solution for the one cyberleg bit. Nothing. Just "they used an S!!!"

Ah. In that case, good riddance.

Thats what is in the table for adding hydraulic jacks to someone who already has cyberlegs. Now, for those who argue that its 6.5 PER LEG for level 5 jacks, then is it also .25 essence per leg? Totalling .5 essence to get the modification? I don't think so, it says a straight .25 essence cost to get them, period. That means for both legs. Which says that the 6.5 ECU is also for both legs, and thusly is 3.25 per leg.

Note: Sorry about bringing this back from the recently deceased, but I'm making a character that this becomes rather crucial to know in.

As you said, 4 ECU for the pair. Same space as a cyber holster. You just said that both skates should take up the same amount of space as 1 holster. Considering that the holster also slides the weapon out and into your hand for you, I'd agree. Now, for both skates to take up the same space as a holster, you have to..... SPLIT THE ECU. You just disagreed with yourself. Also note that a computer takes up 3 ECU, and a cyberdeck 5.


Heres a different arguement for hydraulic jacks.

Compare them to other cyberware. I'll use flex hands. "This modification replaces most of the bones in the hands with a" blah blah blah. Now, flex hands does both hands, yes? Now, the essence for this covers having it done to both hands right? Think of some cyberware being you have this or you don't. And others being specified per limb or not. A cyberleg is per limb, as you can get up to two of them. Flex hands is you have it, or you don't, as having it puts it in both hands, or none, there is no in between.

The same is with hydraulic jacks. You have it, or you don't. It goes in both legs, or none. If you have 1 real leg, and 1 cyber leg, half the costs of both, and do it that way. If you have two cyberlegs, thats the total between them. If you have 2 real legs, thats the total between them. At least, thats how I see it.

No, "skates" can be used for the singular, too (hence "pair of skates"), and that was the way I was using it. A single skate (better?) is roughly the same size as a pistol. A single cyberholster takes up 4 ECU. A single cyberskate, complete with the retraction and housing mechanisms, should/does take up 4 ECU per limb, just like cyberholsters do.

I never said otherwise, though in this case it's a moot point since Flex Hands are apparently unavailable as accessories for cyberhands.

However, I think you missed my original point. I agree that the costs (for Essence and nuyen) include the entire set. The amount of ECU, however, obliviously (when compared to the requirements of other similarly-sized options) are dependant on each limb. There is NO precedent whatsoever in the rules that even hints that you split ECU costs between multiple limbs. There ARE examples of per limb ECU ratings when dealing with implants that come in pairs, however. The rules never state one way or the other, but I prefer to side with logic rather than cheesiness.

If you want to accept that an EXTENSIVE (it's right there in the description) and MASSIVE reinforcement of the entire limb, including the addition of an entire hydraulic system, shock absorbers, and a system similar to a Telescopic Limb should only take up a piddly 2-3 ECU per limb while a Telescopic Limb alone takes up 3 ECU per limb, that's your perorgative. You'll just be one of those players who rapes the rules just so you can cram some other tinker toy into your limbs. Knock yourself out. I couldn't care less as it won't have any affect on my games or my playing style. So have a blast.

I think it's silly anyway. Hydraulic Jacks are amongst the lamest implants in the game, and the Essence, cash, and ECU could be spent on far more interesting and useful things. But... whatever.

Other than the fact that MUCH of the "extensive" reinforcing now no longer needs to be done because your legs are metal, this is another reason to rule for the 2.25-3.25 range of ECU cost for the jacks per limb. They aren't that good, this helps make the cost of putting them in manageable.

LOL!

I don't particularly see hydraulic jacks as cheesy at 3.25ECU/limb. It's not like hydraulic jacks will let the runner suddenly slaughter security guards faster than ever. The main improvement in runner firepower came initiative enhancements and the smart link. Hydraulic jacks are good for jumping and falling.

And, maybe this is specific to the games I'm in, but I don't recall a single jump requiring an Athletics test in the past dozen sessions. Hydraulic jacks are an expensive fluff item.

Thank you for at least making me feel not utterly crazy. I agree, bonus to jumping and such is not worth 6.5 ECU a leg. Thats a total of 13 ECU. Cannonly, thats as much space as 2 medkits and a heavy pistol. Bit much isn't it?

True, for a rating 1 jack it would be 4.5/leg totalling 9, enough for a medkit, heavy pistol, and a knife.

You won't see me argue that. In fact, I haven't -- even pointed out that they're not worth their values (ECU or otherwise). That doesn't change the fact that the implant, as described, requires a lot of space and modification to the limbs... far more than a piddly 3 ECU.

The cheesiness that I was talking about wasn't aimed towards the implant, but trying to "cheat" the rules so you can cram more than you should into your limbs. Yes, Hydraulic Jacks suck. No, that doesn't mean you should ignore the consequences of their installation because of that (especially since this is one of the reasons why Hydraulic Jacks suck).

If you want to look at it from a value point of view, you're exchanging a little more than half the ECU of your synthetic legs (and only a fraction if you put 'em in obvious legs) for the huge Essence cost they normally suck up. In that sense, they're a bargain.

But no matter how you look at it -- ECU or Essence -- they still bite the big one compared to their benefits. Doesn't mean you should be able to get them at a steal just because you're putting them in cyberlegs, though, anymore than you should say that you should split the Essence in half because you're installing them in two legs.

A pair of cyberholsters take up enough space for a complete off-the shelf and unmodified cyberdeck and a heavy pistol, too. A pair of cyberarm gyromounts take up the same amount of space. So what's your point? That some implants take up more ECU than others? Who woulda thunk that?

Were the jacks a standalone item not using available systems in the legs, I'd agree. But in cyberlegs, there's already existing equipment that can do the job, with modification: the existing motors/myomers/hydraulics. Adding a hydraulic accumulator or electrical capacitor to overcharge existing systems for big jump, or soak up the energy of a drop, shouldn't need 6.5 ECU per leg, even at rating 5.

Consequences? You get little gain for little ECU cost. You're saving a max of about 3 ECU per leg, which is not going to have major consequences.

The lower rating jacks aren't worth talking about, and give even proportionally less benefit per ECU.

I would disagree with that. You can have a telescopic limb and hydraulic jacks. You just can't use the hydraulic jacks while your limb is telescoped out.

3 ECU is more than enough space to get a Guardian Angel Nano-Biomonitor installed (not to mention enough room for another complete Hydraulic Jack system with your interpretation). I'd say that's a pretty major consequence.

Woo, it's about time cyberlimbs could do something useful. As far as major consequences go, this sounds like a very useful one.

Opposed to your version. In which you save 13 ECU by not getting the jacks because they're not worth the amount, and get the guardian angel, a cyber holster, a cyberdeck and a knife put in instead.

Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying.

There's tons of great things you can do with cyberlimbs. Hydraulic Jacks just happen to be one of the things that are less than great. Significantly less.

Especially with your interpretation. At least at 3.25 ECU a piece, they might actually be an option someone would consider.

Thing that bugs me is what if you only had one CyberLeg? Would you pay 1/2 essence for the real HJ and 1/2 the ECU and essence for the CyberLeg version? I wouldn't allow only one HJ to be installed, it make far more sence to have them in pairs than individual. I know the inconsistant wording makes it more questionable but we've assumed since CyberLimbs could be purchased seperately the cost was per limb.

As for their usefulness, you get their rating in +Athletic (Running) Dice and +Stealth Dice (we are still trying to figure the logic in this one) as well as +20% per max jump distance bonuses.

Personally, I like it when not all folks min/max their cyberware and make cookie-cutter sams.

As I said previously, yes, I would rule that you do Half the normal essence cost and half the ecu and essence for the other leg.

While it was assumed the cost is per limb, why do other mods such as cyberfins specifically state that they are per limb? If HJ was per limb, shouldn't it have stated (per limb) as well?