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BitBasher
QUOTE
What's the real difference, at that point, other than shitty game mechanics?
Easy, one has a fat wad in essence of cyber dedicated to doing absolutely nothing but control vehicles, the other does not.
toturi
You can suffer dumpshock from using that drone. And please do not use that in a desert sandstorm, you'll get Stress like nobody's business.
Fix-it
I love using bikes as rigged drones. Fast, manueverable, and if you remove the seat (3-5 cf, and about 70 more kg, depending on the bike and your gm)

enough to put on at least 2 turrets, an LMG in one, and a grenade launcher in the other.

rocket hardpoints are nice too.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Fix-it)
I love using bikes as rigged drones. Fast, manueverable, and if you remove the seat (3-5 cf, and about 70 more kg, depending on the bike and your gm)

enough to put on at least 2 turrets, an LMG in one, and a grenade launcher in the other.

rocket hardpoints are nice too.

They are very nice. I am a fan of the rear facing 'nade launcher myself. As far as LMGs go, I prefer to avoid them, being that they're too situationally dependant on where they're mounted and how the people are oriented. I prefer to take your other option of the rocket instead. Rockouts out the front, and nades behind, good times.
lodestar
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Just to second what the Doc said, Control Pool, Reaction, Initiative, and a Target Number modifier are all drastic improvements. Any one individually would give a decent improvement, especially the pool and TN mod. All together and I have no idea where you're getting the idea that an unrigged biker can hope to keep up.

~J

Unfortunately the big problem with rigging a bike is the cost and weight of the gear to do so. The gyrostab unit that you need to enable you to do so plus the black box plus the r/c if you have it ammounts to quite a bit of weight - not to mention the fact you'd have to add a decent drone pilot, perhaps autonav firmpoints and weapons add even more. All of which impact the bike's handling and performance. Not to mention our rigger if he's actually riding the motorcycle is very vunlerable and since he's jacked in can't do anything aside from ride the bike. Where as a normal rider can do fun things like ride by clothslining, toss gernades and various other stunting activities. A drone bike doesn't have the advantage of a rider, so its easy to up end or just avoid. Lastly if you're rigging your bike and get knocked off it, not only do you take some nasty road rash, but you get to suffer dumpshock as well. (assuming you're not secured to it, but if you are you'll probably be pinned under it, especially if it has that extra weight)

Simply put take two Suzuki Auroras rig one up the other just stock and you'll find that our unrigged bike will leave its rigged competitor in the dust.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
The gyrostab unit that you need to enable you to do so plus the black box plus the r/c if you have it ammounts to quite a bit of weight

5kg for the Gyros, 0kg (10kg if you do it as a customization option instead of a design option) for the Rigger Adaptation. Oh, the horror. The Sensors 1 package takes up the most weight at a whopping 12kg. There isn't a single standard chopper or racing bike that couldn't handle that load with room to spare.

QUOTE
Simply put take two Suzuki Auroras rig one up the other just stock and you'll find that our unrigged bike will leave its rigged competitor in the dust.

You, sir, are certifiably insane. Feel free to build your bike and a non-rigger rider. I'll do the same with a rigger. Then we'll compare. How's that sound?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (lodestar @ Nov 29 2004, 09:19 PM)
not to mention the fact you'd have to add a decent drone pilot

NO. For a vehicle like this, there is NO REASON to have a decent drone interface. Unless you're willing to shell out for a robot or a high-rating drone and an autosoft interpreter system plus the chips, the primary use of drones will be with you jumped directly into them. You could get away with having no remote-control interface in there period and just having it be a rigged vehicle.

As for getting knocked off the bike, if you're up against something that can knock a good rigger off the bike, whether you take the damage right then or in another fifteen seconds is moot.

Also, with the ramming rules, there's no reason for a Rigger to need a weapons system for anything but long-range combat.

~J
Tarantula
QUOTE (lodestar)
Not to mention our rigger if he's actually riding the motorcycle is very vunlerable and since he's jacked in can't do anything aside from ride the bike. Where as a normal rider can do fun things like ride by clothslining, toss gernades and various other stunting activities. A drone bike doesn't have the advantage of a rider, so its easy to up end or just avoid. Lastly if you're rigging your bike and get knocked off it, not only do you take some nasty road rash, but you get to suffer dumpshock as well.

Firstly, being in any combat vehicle WHILE rigging it unless it is your team transport is a very stupid idea. Especially if it is a bike.

Next, how does a bike without a rider make it magically easier to up end or avoid? Hell, the one WITH the rider is easier to upend, it has no dodge pool!
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (DrJest @ Nov 29 2004, 07:01 PM)
I'd go with the idea to make a VCR a minor piece of cyberware, and any extra reaction/initiative dependent on other reflex systems. It's a good idea, and I shall be stealing it wholesale.

If you really want to integrate this idea into the rest of the SR world, you'll need one extra rule. See, as was pointed out above, physical boosts to initiative generally don't affect someone who is using pure DNI. This rule should, IMO, stay absolute. This means whenever you're physically driving (that is, using physical controls) you can take advantage of physical boosts to initiative; this includes when you're using the "virtual dashboard" of datajack driving, as driving via datajack really doesn't change the fact that you're still using the physical controls to drive.

But, when your rigger decides to "jump into" a rigger-adapted vehicle, all those physical initiative bonuses go out the window. You're driving via mental command, so naturally being able to twitch your muscles faster won't really help that much. So, what's a rigger to do? Well, if you look over at the Matrix rules you find out that there is already a way for people jacked into machines to increase there initiative, without requiring any extra implants: the decker's Response Increase. What I'm proposing is that, just as the decker has Response Increase hardwired into his deck rather than his brain, so should the rigger have his Response Increase hardwired into the black box that is added to every rigger-adapted vehicle instead of *his* brain. I'd calculate the cost based on p. 66-67 of Matrix, using the vehicle's Body in place of MPCP for cost purposes, with an upper limit of 3 or the vehicle's Bod rating, whichever is lower.

In this way we have the max Response Increase being a factor of the vehicle itself rather than the rigger, which makes more sense to me. [Edit] These rule changes also make more sense to me because they bring vehicle rules more in line with the *rest* of the SR rules, rather than leaving tham as even more of a weird corner case that noone wants to think about. The upswing of it all is almost none of the flavor of the rigger is changed, and very few of the mechanics. All that really changes in the end is that the rules are more internally consistent--thus easier to learn--and more fair for the non-rigger driver.
Kagetenshi
Then you have small, supposedly nimble drones reacting much more slowly than large lumbering trucks.

Honestly, I can't say the response increase being a factor of the vehicle makes sense to me. I'm not even sure it really makes sense to me for decking, either.

~J
lodestar
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE
The gyrostab unit that you need to enable you to do so plus the black box plus the r/c if you have it ammounts to quite a bit of weight

5kg for the Gyros, 0kg (10kg if you do it as a customization option instead of a design option) for the Rigger Adaptation. Oh, the horror. The Sensors 1 package takes up the most weight at a whopping 12kg. There isn't a single standard chopper or racing bike that couldn't handle that load with room to spare.

QUOTE
Simply put take two Suzuki Auroras rig one up the other just stock and you'll find that our unrigged bike will leave its rigged competitor in the dust.

You, sir, are certifiably insane. Feel free to build your bike and a non-rigger rider. I'll do the same with a rigger. Then we'll compare. How's that sound?

Creativity, Funk my man, I haven't lost yet. wink.gif

As per the advantages of being a rider, I'd assume that you probably haven't ever ridden a dirt or street bike. For example if a drone bike gets knocked over, how does it get back up? Next most bikes don't have reverse, so what happens when a drone gets suckered into a dead end that it can't turn around in? Its also easily foiled by simple barriers like fences, barricades etc. that a rider might be able to get around - say by opening the gate. Same sort of disadvantages a rigged bike has because our rider doesn't have the use of those helpful things - his limbs - until he jacks out.

In reality a rigged bike would have other disadvantages in the fact that unless a different sort of RAS overide was created he can't move his body to shift his weight to manuverwhile cornering or braking.

Now let me put things in perspective on the weight issue - forgive me I'm going to deal in imperial. we have your extras that amount to roughly 60lbs - but really to put them on par we need to upgrade sensors to 2 since our street sam rider probably has thermo. But we'll go with 60lbs. For your average sport bike we're looking at about 12% increase in its weight. Lets put this in real life perspective. Take about a '99 GSX-R 600 and an '04 model you'll find about the same difference for bikes which have about the same horsies. Guess which beats which on the track?
Kanada Ten
Lodestar, are you trying to compare the game to real life?

QUOTE
In reality a rigged bike would have other disadvantages in the fact that unless a different sort of RAS overide was created he can't move his body to shift his weight to manuverwhile cornering or braking.

Gyroscopic stabiliation unit.

QUOTE
For example if a drone bike gets knocked over, how does it get back up?

Gyroscopic stabiliation unit.

QUOTE
Next most bikes don't have reverse, so what happens when a drone gets suckered into a dead end that it can't turn around in?

Gyroscopic stabiliation unit (wheelie in a circle).

QUOTE
Its also easily foiled by simple barriers like fences, barricades etc. that a rider might be able to get around - say by opening the gate. Same sort of disadvantages a rigged bike has because our rider doesn't have the use of those helpful things - his limbs - until he jacks out.

Or goes into Captin's Chair mode. Seriously, the dude has to get off the bike to do these things either way.

QUOTE
Guess which beats which on the track?

Guess what's not reflected in the rules?
John Campbell
Note that the raw weight of the vehicle has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with its performance under the R3 construction rules.
Kagetenshi
Also note that the improved ability of the rigger to push the bike to the absolute limits of its performance would make up for that, even if it were accounted for under the rules.

~J
mmu1
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE
What's the real difference, at that point, other than shitty game mechanics?
Easy, one has a fat wad in essence of cyber dedicated to doing absolutely nothing but control vehicles, the other does not.

BS. Wanna tell me, in non-game terms, what the difference is between a medium anthrophorm drone and a complete cyber-body, and why one is classed as a vehicle, and the other as a collection of prosthetic limbs? The difference is completely arbitrary.

Why would anyone ever make a cyberzombie, when you can just amputate most of someone's body, strap on a life support system and VCR3, put the whole thing in an armored capsule, and stick it on an anthrophorm covered in vehicular armor? It's vastly better in combat, and doesn't require expensive cybermancy.
Shrapnel
Interesting arguement, to say the least...

My idea would be to allow non-VCR drivers to use half of their normal initiative bonuses, and have half of the normal control pool.

This would still give them some bonuses for their Wired Reflexes and such, yet still allow the Rigger to have driving superiority in most cases.

Of course, if you add a datajack link, you could take advantage of sensors and such.

Just a thought...
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Then you have small, supposedly nimble drones reacting much more slowly than large lumbering trucks.

Honestly, I can't say the response increase being a factor of the vehicle makes sense to me. I'm not even sure it really makes sense to me for decking, either.

You know that's true. Maybe it should be based on the Handling then, or the Speed or Acceloration? Maybe a max of (6 - Handling), to a maximum of 3?

Honestly I agree with you; in an ideal world mental initiative boosts would and should be the domain of neuro-cyberware implants like the encephalon. But let's stick to one paradign shift at a time, eh? smile.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
Why would anyone ever make a cyberzombie, when you can just amputate most of someone's body, strap on a life support system and VCR3, put the whole thing in an armored capsule, and stick it on an anthrophorm covered in vehicular armor? It's vastly better in combat, and doesn't require expensive cybermancy.

Shhhh... you're not supposed to realize such things.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Why would anyone ever make a cyberzombie, when you can just amputate most of someone's body, strap on a life support system and VCR3, put the whole thing in an armored capsule, and stick it on an anthrophorm covered in vehicular armor? It's vastly better in combat, and doesn't require expensive cybermancy.

Cybermancy is research into immortality, but what you describe would result in the same (essence loss beyond the pale), IMO.
John Campbell
Use a heavy anthroform, and you can skip the body-amputation step. The result's a bit big for playing indoors, but, hey, so are trolls.

Or you can just remote control it.
lodestar
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Lodestar, are you trying to compare the game to real life?

QUOTE
In reality a rigged bike would have other disadvantages in the fact that unless a different sort of RAS overide was created he can't move his body to shift his weight to manuverwhile cornering or braking.

Gyroscopic stabiliation unit.

QUOTE
For example if a drone bike gets knocked over, how does it get back up?

Gyroscopic stabiliation unit.

QUOTE
Next most bikes don't have reverse, so what happens when a drone gets suckered into a dead end that it can't turn around in?

Gyroscopic stabiliation unit (wheelie in a circle).

QUOTE
Its also easily foiled by simple barriers like fences, barricades etc. that a rider might be able to get around - say by opening the gate. Same sort of disadvantages a rigged bike has because our rider doesn't have the use of those helpful things - his limbs - until he jacks out.

Or goes into Captin's Chair mode. Seriously, the dude has to get off the bike to do these things either way.

QUOTE
Guess which beats which on the track?

Guess what's not reflected in the rules?

No offense dude, but do you have any idea how gyros work?
Kanada Ten
No offense dude, but do you understand what the purpose of the Gyroscopic Stabilization Unit is?
mmu1
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
QUOTE
Why would anyone ever make a cyberzombie, when you can just amputate most of someone's body, strap on a life support system and VCR3, put the whole thing in an armored capsule, and stick it on an anthrophorm covered in vehicular armor? It's vastly better in combat, and doesn't require expensive cybermancy.

Cybermancy is research into immortality, but what you describe would result in the same (essence loss beyond the pale), IMO.

It should result in massive essence loss and require cybermancy, but by the rules, it doesn't - because it's a vehicle, not a cybernetic body. sarcastic.gif
Kagetenshi
If you brake a gyro, you can get a decent jump in the opposite direction from where you applied the braking.

~J
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Nov 29 2004, 11:08 PM)
QUOTE
Why would anyone ever make a cyberzombie, when you can just amputate most of someone's body, strap on a life support system and VCR3, put the whole thing in an armored capsule, and stick it on an anthrophorm covered in vehicular armor? It's vastly better in combat, and doesn't require expensive cybermancy.

Cybermancy is research into immortality, but what you describe would result in the same (essence loss beyond the pale), IMO.

It should result in massive essence loss and require cybermancy, but by the rules, it doesn't - because it's a vehicle, not a cybernetic body. sarcastic.gif

Where are the rules on permanent life support systems?
Fix-it
QUOTE (Tarantula)
QUOTE (Fix-it @ Nov 29 2004, 08:32 PM)
I love using bikes as rigged drones. Fast, manueverable, and if you remove the seat (3-5 cf, and about 70 more kg, depending on the bike and your gm)

enough to put on at least 2 turrets, an LMG in one, and a grenade launcher in the other.

rocket hardpoints are nice too.

They are very nice. I am a fan of the rear facing 'nade launcher myself. As far as LMGs go, I prefer to avoid them, being that they're too situationally dependant on where they're mounted and how the people are oriented. I prefer to take your other option of the rocket instead. Rockouts out the front, and nades behind, good times.

another neat little trick you can do is attach a mine-deployment rack. mines have the same avail as similar grenades.

the reason I use LMGs or ARs instead of rockets is that the GM liked to use the official response times. rockets gave me less time to get things done and the team out.

plus, with vehicle mounts you need not worry about conceal rating, so you can slap on all the accessories you need (Like suppressors and recoil compensation)
akarenti
QUOTE
BS. Wanna tell me, in non-game terms, what the difference is between a medium anthrophorm drone and a complete cyber-body, and why one is classed as a vehicle, and the other as a collection of prosthetic limbs? The difference is completely arbitrary.


An anthroform drone doesn't have a juicy center. Cyberskulls and torsos just reinforce and encapsulate. Cybertorsos might go so far as to replace bones and muscle and such in the torso, but as far as I can tel from the p28 M&M description, not all of them do. The point being, quite a bit of the cyber-monkey is still organic, and can keep itself alive, most of the parts connect to the cyber-monkey's brain through organic connections, and are powered by the body's own metabolic processes. Also note that a full cyberbody is invasive enough to kill the guy that sports it, and higher grades of cyber are based more and more on "organic" style complonents (organic polymers vs. metals and servos) and interweaving non-organics into the host as opposed to just chopping and replacing.

Anthorphorm drones are just overly complex sets of mechanical arms with a computor somewhere to coordinate them. They need some sort of external power source to operate, and are not capable of the type of dicision making and higher order thinking that a Meta-human is. Deus's Skellbots are probably pretty close to SOTA in Anthroform design, and they really aren't that impressive compared to what a Meta-human can do naturally (unless the two are in a soaking bullets contest).

Drones also need to be part of a network to recieve commands and such, and are bound to the commands of said network, and even with all the robotics upgrades, they still cannot operate outside of their programmed tasks and do not have the processing power to give them the same small-motor skills on par with a cyberlimb. That would take a very sophisticated SK or even an AI to accomplish, and considering Renraku expected it to take 25,000 Mp to store a chopped up and compressed AI (in Brainscan), I doubt that giving an anthroform the processing power to run one is possible.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Where are the rules on permanent life support systems?

Effectively, it's just called the Quadraplegic flaw.
Tarantula
QUOTE (lodestar @ Nov 30 2004, 12:34 AM)
No offense dude, but do you have any idea how gyros work?

I'll give better answers....

QUOTE
In reality a rigged bike would have other disadvantages in the fact that unless a different sort of RAS overide was created he can't move his body to shift his weight to manuverwhile cornering or braking.


"A rigger can override the simsense through sheer concentration to assume temporary control of her body, should the need arise. However, doing so imposes a +8 modifier on all physical actions and Perception tests." R3R pg 27.
You could lean and argue that since you don't have to roll it normally, you still don't.
Alternately, the gyro unit keeps the bike upright regardless of if you're leaning or not.

QUOTE
For example if a drone bike gets knocked over, how does it get back up?

It doesn't. The Gyroscopic stabiliation unit keeps the bike upright.

QUOTE
Next most bikes don't have reverse, so what happens when a drone gets suckered into a dead end that it can't turn around in?


Driving test +3 for a tight area, -VCR Rating for a rigger controlling it.

QUOTE
Its also easily foiled by simple barriers like fences, barricades etc. that a rider might be able to get around - say by opening the gate. Same sort of disadvantages a rigged bike has because our rider doesn't have the use of those helpful things - his limbs - until he jacks out.

Put a mechanical arm on the front. Or override the simsense and open it. Or use the rocket launcher.

QUOTE
Guess which beats which on the track?
QUOTE
Guess what's not reflected in the rules?


Well, he has this one right.
Shrapnel
Everybody's so busy arguing about Gyroscopic stabilization units that my previous post seems to have been overlooked. Allow me to repeat myself...

QUOTE
My idea would be to allow non-VCR drivers to use half of their normal initiative bonuses, and have half of the normal control pool.

This would still give them some bonuses for their Wired Reflexes and such, yet still allow the Rigger to have driving superiority in most cases.

Of course, if you add a datajack link, you could take advantage of sensors and such.

Just a thought...


Sorry to steal the spotlight, but I want opinions on my idea.
Tarantula
Shrapnel, heres my opinion (since you asked for it).

Normal initiative bonuses have nothing to do with rigging a vehicle. Period.

I'd say allow the half initiative bonus, but not the control pool (how would you attempt to dodge while driving in your car? swerve a bit?)
Kagetenshi
Suggestion:

While driving a vehicle, unrigged and no datajack: 1/2 normal initiative bonus, 1/2 of adjusted Reaction in Control Pool.

While driving a vehicle, unrigged and using datajack link: no initiative bonus, full nonadjusted Reaction in Control Pool, other normal bonuses to driving from datajack link.

~J
Crusher Bob
Of course the problem here is the assumption that the mind is as 'slow' as the body is... Considering that the speed enhancers only function at the behest of the mind, the mind has to be capable of sorting and processing information, then issuing 'directives' on the basis of the information all at 4 actions a combat turn (or whatever).

IMHO, fully fully DNI interfaces should have an initiative bonus similar to the bonus for astrally projected mages.
Shrapnel
QUOTE
I'd say allow the half initiative bonus, but not the control pool (how would you attempt to dodge while driving in your car? swerve a bit?)


Exactly... How would one dodge as a rigger?

And as for initiative bonuses affecting driving, they do affect how fast you react to thing, right? And how fast you can move, right? So why not get at least some bonus while driving?

Of course, the bonus wouldn't be as good as when rigging, do to the imprecise nature of things like steering wheels and accelerators, but the idea is still the same. Kinda like when you drive under the effects of medication, only in reverse! biggrin.gif

I think Kagetenshi and I are almost on the same page... Same book, at least...
Grinzwilly
To get back to the original point of the post, since all y'all seem content to crunch numbers and shoot the shit:

Riggers have the most annoying, difficult to integrate rules system in the game that can still be removed entirely without damaging the other rules systems or the continuity of the game world. Try removing magic, or decking - it just doesn't work. Try removing rigging, and your average Joe on the street wouldn't know the difference.

What I'm trying to say isn't the rigging isn't fun, that it can't be totally rewarding for the player and the GM. What I am saying is that if you're not interested in running riggers, and your players aren't either, you're not really missing a whole lot.

Personally I find the vehicle rules to be ridiculously complex in some ways and ridiculously incomplete in others. If you do choose to leave out riggers, make sure that you keep a few NPC riggers in your back pocket for special occasions, but make the majority of vehicle opposition un-rigged. With a slight alteration to the game world, you could just make VCRs a recent development in technology, shooting the street price up to a couple million, out of the price range of starting characters, but still within the price range of really top-notch corp security forces.
Kagetenshi
You could do the same with magic nyahnyah.gif

~J
Eyeless Blond
Well then it's not really Shadowrun is it? nyahnyah.gif

In all honesty I don't know why the non-rigger types can't just get their normal initiative boosts or Control Pool when physically driving the vehicle. It's not like they haven't already paid through the nose for those enhancements, or that they'll ever be albe to truly compete with a real rigger in any non-pathological scenario. It just seems like a fool way to create an artificial difference between rigger and non-rigger, rather like the Trapfinding ability in D&D seperates rogues from non-rogues. No matter how skilled a person is at driving (Car skill 24 or something equally ridiculous) he'll never be able to dodge a bullet like a guy with a VCR 1 and no Car skill at all can.
DrJest
QUOTE
No matter how skilled a person is at driving (Car skill 24 or something equally ridiculous) he'll never be able to dodge a bullet like a guy with a VCR 1 and no Car skill at all can.


Unless you were to house-rule a vehicular version of the athletic dodge rule from CC (p.97).
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Well then it's not really Shadowrun is it? nyahnyah.gif

I could say the same about Riggerlessrun nyahnyah.gif

~J
Stumps
I'm using Doc's idea from now on.
I like that one alot.

*kicks the weeping rigger on the way out of the thread.*
Trashman
Methinks, I opened a can of wyrms there...

I'll probably also second the good Doctor Funkenstein's views.
Or rather get my runners to places where they need a PILOT and then all that techno-babble from SRIII and RiggerIII finally makes some sense.
wink.gif

Thanks evereyone for the contributions. Edifying, they were, to say the least.
mmu1
QUOTE (akarenti)
An anthroform drone doesn't have a juicy center. Cyberskulls and torsos just reinforce and encapsulate.

A mechanical body is a mechanical body... Sure, the cyber-body has some organs at the core, but the whole skeleto-muscular system is a machine at that point - what's the reason it can't be rigged?

And why can a Body 3 large anthrophorm be covered in a huge amount of vehicular armor, but a Body 10 troll cyberzombie with a complete cyber-body can only use personal armor?

These rules make no sense.
Kagetenshi
A Body 3 large anthroform is also the size of a mid-sized sedan. Body 2 drones, though, you have a point about.

~J
Tarantula
QUOTE (mmu1 @ Nov 30 2004, 09:26 AM)
A mechanical body is a mechanical body... Sure, the cyber-body has some organs at the core, but the whole skeleto-muscular system is a machine at that point - what's the reason it can't be rigged?

It can, what do you think snake eyes and some remote controlled skill wires are for?
Lantzer
Of course. It definately is inconsistent, because Vehicle Body <> Character Body. Different scales.

(And do we really _want_ Body 10 trolls with vehicle armor?)

An alternative, of course, is to have vehicles on the same scale as characters, but with much higher armor ratings, and around 100-1000 Body. That's a lot of dice.

As an aside... Does anyone remember what the difference was between character damage points and SDP (for borgs, cars, and powersuits) in CP2020?
Kagetenshi
The reason they made a new scale of damage for vehicles is because even with Body scores in the hundreds, staging down a very high-Power attack is more or less impossible. Same problem with naval-scale weaponry. The line may need to be shifted, but having vehicle body mean something different from character body isnít such a bad thing IMO.

~J
Trashman
Ah, missed Grinzwilly's post up there.

Definitely one of the ways to go!
Thanks a lot.
lodestar
Where does it say that a normal driver doesn't get his reaction bonuses when driving? No really, does anyone have a page reference?

Secondly here's a question: why does a datajack for a motorcycle cost more than a rigger's black box, especially when the black box includes a datajack?
Kagetenshi
Because the Black Box doesn't include a datajack. Remember, you need that box for rigged remote-control adaptation, too.

~J
John Campbell
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
The reason they made a new scale of damage for vehicles is because even with Body scores in the hundreds, staging down a very high-Power attack is more or less impossible. Same problem with naval-scale weaponry. The line may need to be shifted, but having vehicle body mean something different from character body isnít such a bad thing IMO.

But with Body scores of 2-3, staging down any attack is more or less impossible.
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