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iPad
I can only remember having to do it once, burst firing an alpha at a mob of people who were charging along a street at long/medium and eventually short range. Since most SR fire fights Ive been in are over in a combat turn or two 3-6 seconds ammo used in a fight is much of a muchness. The one exception being shotties.
Clyde
Maybe back in Second Edition, when suppressing fire was better than aimed shooting. Pretty much never in 3rd Ed.
mfb
yeah. most of my battles have been over inside two rounds. in the last game i played in, however, i ended up using all but my last two clips of ammo, so that throws off my curve a bit. man, that was fun--at one point, i spent... oh, five rounds or so, i guess, burning through a belt of MMG ammo at ~21 rounds per turn.

that sounds like some kind of high-end millspec ops game, but it really wasn't. at the time, my character was wearing beach shorts, a tropical shirt, and bare feet; we'd been out on the beach, waiting to to the next part of the run, when Bad Things started happening all over the place. most of the group ended up completely weaponless, with little or no armor. we managed to ambush a jeepful of "soldiers" (indonesian punks with rusty AKs and predator knockoffs in flipflops and cutoff fatigues) and taking their stuff, including the MMG mounted on their jeep. my character had to default to Str when he used it; luckily, i was using suppressive fire and centering, so i did some nice damage to the hundreds of shedim crossing the channel to eat our tasty flesh-parts. woo, good times.
Necro Tech
You know its bad when you reload your 50 rnd drum four times. Or your Ares alpha grenade launcher 4 times and stop reloading because you (and the rest of the party) are out of ammo. A fast sam can empty a standard assault rifle every turn with the cyberarm gyro mount and our current sam almost emptied his 100 rnd belt on the LMG. Fighting from cover at night with opponents in cover takes a while.
toturi
My primary PC uses a G38 carbine rifle with 100 rd drum. Any reloading more than once... means we're in deeper doodoo than we have any right to get out alive.
kevyn668
QUOTE (mfb)
yeah. most of my battles have been over inside two rounds. in the last game i played in, however, i ended up using all but my last two clips of ammo, so that throws off my curve a bit. man, that was fun--at one point, i spent... oh, five rounds or so, i guess, burning through a belt of MMG ammo at ~21 rounds per turn.

that sounds like some kind of high-end millspec ops game, but it really wasn't. at the time, my character was wearing beach shorts, a tropical shirt, and bare feet; we'd been out on the beach, waiting to to the next part of the run, when Bad Things started happening all over the place. most of the group ended up completely weaponless, with little or no armor. we managed to ambush a jeepful of "soldiers" (indonesian punks with rusty AKs and predator knockoffs in flipflops and cutoff fatigues) and taking their stuff, including the MMG mounted on their jeep. my character had to default to Str when he used it; luckily, i was using suppressive fire and centering, so i did some nice damage to the hundreds of shedim crossing the channel to eat our tasty flesh-parts. woo, good times.

That sounds just like one of Bung's stories from PAoE... biggrin.gif
iPad
toturi surely thats what aiming and single shot is for? Or suppressive fire? Or better hand to hand combat.
toturi
QUOTE (iPad @ Dec 10 2004, 10:49 AM)
toturi surely thats what aiming and single shot is for? Or suppressive fire? Or better hand to hand combat.

Think the 2 snipers in Blackhawk Down with Shedim instead of skinnies. Our rigger's drones ran out of ammo and our mage used up all his Great Form Elementals.
Arethusa
I honestly can't say I've ever seen enough action to justify reloading. Admittedly, my character spent most of his time avoiding combat, but in stand up fights, it was usually over before you even got half way through a mag. It really feels like the rules encourage players being unrealistic machines of efficiency in combat, and the only time you end up needing to reload is if you're up against more enemies than you have rounds in your mag.
FrostyNSO
Our group did a similar to "Blackhawk Down" Scenario once.

Those tend to suck ammo at a tremendous rate.
Raygun
In about thirteen years of playing Shadowrun, I've run into the occasion to reload maybe three times.

The first time was in the first game I ever played. Playing the elf street samurai out of the back of the SSC, I rolled an initiative so high (67 on 3D6) that I leveled three out of four of the opposition with an FN HAR, then took cover and reloaded before anyone else went. The next guy in the group to go, a troll street sam, killed the last guy. Directly after that, he opened a door into the next room and promptly took nine rounds upside the head from the guy on the other side of it. And lived. hahaha! First edition...
iPad
Well the situation I described above, I wasnt using combat pool and didnt have smart link then.
Kanada Ten
Back in the day we used a separate sheet of gird paper with sections pencil traced to represent clips and would mark off the bullets as they went. Several clips each were used every mission against the hordes of ninjii I poured upon them, along with boxes of grenades. Of course, we blasted through the front doors every time.

It's still fun to have a little gang war now and again, you know, to keep the PCs on their toes. Demon rat armies and shedim, oh my.
toturi
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
It's still fun to have a little gang war now and again, you know, to keep the PCs on their toes. Demon rat armies and shedim, oh my.

Flesh Form Demon Rat [Insert favorite insect spirit type here] armies. Mutated metahuman Shedim. Drones, lot of drones. All of those eat up ammo at a fearful rate.
Lindt
I have had to reload a few times, mostly because my PCs tend to use revolvers and shotguns. That 7 round problem and all...
sidartha
I recall having to reload a sporting/sniper rifle once.
All I'll say about that situation is Azlatan Jaguars are bastards to kill. cyber.gif
Snow_Fox
In genneral yeah, if you need to reload long arms, in a SHADOWrun, things are in the crapper. Pistols, those can need reloading, especially if you use revolvers.

We did do one minicampign set in CFS fighting Imperial Occupation forces. That lead to some hot and heavy firefights.
Kagetenshi
Define "in the heat of battle"? If I've used up more than two or three rounds and I get a few actions without a visible target or anyone shooting directly at me, I'll often swap magazines.

~J
U_Fester
I have had to change in battle in both heavy fire and durring a quick break. I did find out the hard way that you do not throw down clips full of XXP on the ground... especially if it is near the third rail.
Arethusa
Uh, ammunition wouldn't go off if you threw it on an electrified rail/anything else. The ammunition doesn't complete a circuit, and is therefore not going to overheat and discharge. Hell, if it touches the rail/whatever on two points, it's still the same electric potential, so still no discharge.
Tarantula
I think he meant from 3 stories up, onto the ground floor. Which could cause a sufficient impact to set at least one round off, which since they're explosive, would most likely set the remainder of the clip off.
kevyn668
Really? I always thought explosive rounds were more stable than that.

edit: what makes you think he was 3 stories up?
Arethusa
Explosive rounds are more stable than that. Dropping a bullet from three stories up is not sufficient to set off any center fire round, much less any in a magazine, explosive or otherwise.

And nothing even suggests a three story drop.
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
Au contraire, Arethusa.

I reference the Darwin Award where a man used a bullet to use as a fuse in his car, and his lost nads would like to have a chat with you. dead.gif
Arethusa
Actually, that's really the point. Used as a fuse, the bullet completes a circuit, heats up, and discharges (rather pathetically, considering the complete lack of a barrel and the fact that you can't fit anything larger than a .22 in there). If you throw a bullet on an electrified fence, however, even if it connects to the fence at two points, there will be no circuit because both points have identical electric potential.

Also, I would advise against believing anything you read in the Darwin Awards. The bullet fuse is a classic urban myth, and comes in a viarety of flavors. It may or may not have ever happened, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Jason Farlander
http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/fuse.asp
Kanada Ten
There was a Mythbuster episode that proved it could happen, though not that it did happen.
CountZero
Most I ever had to reload was in 3 times in this game I was playing in. Our team had been hired by this group of rookie Johnsons who were looking for their kidnapped kids. We found them in a covert Renraku research facility involved in doing research with combining magic and cybernetics (this was, game time, 7-8 years prior to RA:S). On the way out Renraku security arrived via their underground tram-way from the Arcology. The whole run had an near-CLUE file entry involving a player who forgot that you don't have stand in the middle of the hallway to throw a grenade around a corner (GM decided to be nice and have the character not get dead, but we all got a good laugh out of it).
Crusher Bob
Note that the 22 LR round is rimfire, and may be set of by a long drop.

How much of a drop, I have no idea, but probably several stories onto concrete.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Note that the 22 LR round is rimfire, and may be set of by a long drop.

How much of a drop, I have no idea, but probably several stories onto concrete.

Would that happen if the rounds were in a box magazine, though?

The best-known RL small arms explosive round, the .50 BMG Multipurpose, a pyrotechnically initiated high explosive incendiary armor piercing round, is safe to drop on its point onto a steel plate from 15 meters -- it won't go off. That safety is only going to get better in the next 60 years.

I've always been the GM in Shadowrun, so it doesn't really count that I've reloaded a lot.
lorthazar
I tend to reload a lot, but that is mostly to change to more effective ammo types.

Default rounds in my guns are capsule Neurostun X when I am not on a run or on a non wetwork run

I also carry Glaser, Mercury, APDS, and XXP
Crusher Bob
The 22 LR almost certainly won't go off if dropped in a magazine as they are unlikely to have their rims deformed.

Can't turn up a the drop test the rounds have to pass, but did come up with this;

Ruger Mk III design defect?
Cray74
QUOTE (iPad)
I can only remember having to do it once, burst firing an alpha at a mob of people who were charging along a street at long/medium and eventually short range. Since most SR fire fights Ive been in are over in a combat turn or two 3-6 seconds ammo used in a fight is much of a muchness. The one exception being shotties.

I'll change box magazines on an HMG quite often (2 out of 3 fights...that I get to use it).

And sometimes I forget and user an off-the-shelf taser, which means frequent reloading of a magazine.

I rarely reload pistols mid-fight. Every second or third combat at the most. Their ammo just seems to last a while.
Adarael
I guess I'm a bit of an anomaly - I play a mage who empties his guns on a regular basis, but doesn't bother to reload. But also doesn't switch back to magic when his guns are empty.

Why?

Well, he has only two combat spells and one elemental manipulation. Stunbolt at Force 7, Manaball at Force 6, and Lightning Bolt at Force 4. Stunbolt is for when you need to take a guy out pronto, Manaball he uses for tighly-packed groups of people, and Lightning Bolt is for arcing into water, or making called shots with to hit the electrical systems of objects/ammo/explosives/etc.

His weapons are a pair of Ares Crusader IIs, a pair of FN 5-7s, and a pair of Colt Manhunters, all modded out the yang so he doesn't have to worry about recoil. The thing is, he uses Enhanced Aim, not a smartlink - so by rules, it's actually faster to drop a gun and quickdraw a new one Matrix-style rather than reload a clip. And, since the Crusaders and 5-7s are burst-fire weapons, he tends to burn through a whole lotta ammo once he gets rolling. Especially since the guns only come out when it's time to make people feel some serious pain.

The guns have come out when: The yakuza stole his friend and were going to turn her into a bunraku puppet, when facing down Aztechnology thugs (HATES Aztech. Almost as much as CatCo), when facing CatCo thugs, in the Arcology (yay Ex-Ex and APDS in alternate guns!), when shooting at vehicles. I.E. when it really hits the fan.
KarmaInferno
There's no time to reload in combat! Carry more loaded guns!

biggrin.gif

That's one line I always liked from the Underground RPG.

Then again, this was a game where 40mm handguns were not uncommon.


-karma
northern lights
last run we did we stormed an aztechnology island facility with a half dozen or so pistols.

we had no idea, absolutely none what we were doing we thought it was some rich guy's weekend getaway island.

we used karma's idea. every time we picked off guards, we used their guns. empty and drop, we had plenty around.
Link
To encourage ammo use we allow suppressing fire to continue in initiative passes where a character has no actions. Slow opponents against fast ones will often have clips run dry.
It's a good image when panicked NPC's futilely pull at the trigger as the samurai steps from their momentary cover (some poetic license).

We also allow semi-autos to be used for suppression, with a number of rounds equal to the firer's skill (sort of like 1st ed.)

Apart from higher target numbers and abundant recoil compensation what else could be done to encourage/facilitate ammo burning?
Bigity
Way more then 20 times. I've been playing for a long time though, and used to play pretty regularly.

Of course, we frequently use hold-outs and other guns with very little capacity. I've also frequently switched ammo types during a fight..a little flechette for the gangers...then some EX for the serious-minded folks.

Hell, I've even changed clips of Firepower ammo.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Link)
Apart from higher target numbers and abundant recoil compensation what else could be done to encourage/facilitate ammo burning?

Actually, I think you'll get more ammo consumption if you limit Recoil Compensation (so that even 2 points is good, and over 3 is rare with unsupported weapons) and cap the maximum recoil before modifiers to, say, 7. This way you're almost guaranteed to get some modifiers just for 3-round bursts, so you might as well go for the full 10. This also makes HV weapons and miniguns much more useful (although it might be a good idea to give certain weapons higher recoil caps).

In my games, fully automatic fire works like running -- a weapon has some RoF and it can fire only that many rounds in the full CT, divided evenly among the initiative passes. This allows low-initiative characters to blast away full magazines every CT, though they still don't hit much more than normal. It also makes very high initiative characters buy extremely high cyclic RoF weapons, because they can't stand their weapons shooting less than 10 rounds per action.
Method
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Dec 10 2004, 11:56 AM)
In my games, fully automatic fire works like running --

thats a pretty cool idea. what RoFs do you give for the different weapon classes (SMG, AR, LMG etc)?
Gem the Troll
If you're in a gunfight long enough to need to reload, you've done something wrong.
mfb
depends on what you're doing.
Critias
QUOTE (Gem the Troll)
If you're in a gunfight long enough to need to reload, you've done something wrong.

Why do soldiers in real life carry so much ammo, then?
Toptomcat
QUOTE
Why do soldiers in real life carry so much ammo, then?

Multiple gunfights.
Method
No because your average shooter in a RL fight is horribly inaccurate. Unlike in SR, people miss more then they hit in RL.
Arethusa
It would be more accurate to say that your average shooter and average gun in Shadowrun are ludicrously efficient.
Method

I'll agree to that. I think its a combination of both factors.
Gem the Troll
Soldiers IRL only start firing when something goes wrong. Unless you're doing wetwork, the same applies for Shadowrunners.
Toptomcat
QUOTE
Soldiers IRL only start firing when something goes wrong.

What?
U_Fester
QUOTE (Arethusa)
And nothing even suggests a three story drop.

No I meant on a third rail as in a subway. It was my mistake on role-playing the situation. I had a very anal GM. I was using a Mossberg CMDT and I said while running swiftly (wired dwarf trying to stay with a wired troll) that I was going to throw my clip to the side while running and then reload and try to fire back at them.

He made me role for the maneuver. I rolled all ones. I burned my only karma and rolled 5 ones and a two (note I threw dice in garbage after that).

End result was that they clip in the rail part way landing on the ground completing the current and setting off the extra volatile rounds. Then I rolled for damage resistance (all twos). After that I don't use XXPs anymore.
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