Except that it isn't obviously a massive circle. It could just as easily be 14 tiny circles.

I'd also like to point out that summoning materials are legal.

And if you have the Star coming after someone for buying 14K worth of summoning materials, do you have the secret service show up if they try to buy 420,000 worth of perfectly legal force 2 power focus?

That's why you must name someone who has everyone else in his pocket as your level 3. Someone like Lowfyr for example. Or Hestaby.

Yeah, the Bureau of FATT

Oy. What's it really? BATFT? Dumb name either way.

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Telesma, and Firearms (BATTF). Threats 2.

Frosty: Scan that sheet and post it online somewhere.

I don't have a scanner but I'll try to transpose it into notepad or word when I'm at work =) Then I'll just have to figure out where/how to post it.

That'd be cool. As for where to put it, just chuck it up in this thread using a spoiler tag.

To get back to the bottom line...the first few posts...

a guy - a mage, right - that broke the 100 Karma frontier....nearly unbeatable? high initiation grades? now...what shadowrun were those guys playing? giant dragons? anti-magic critters? power foki / sustained foki in ..let's say 15 to 20 runs?
geez, I really really thought my characters were overpowered or our GM gave too much gimmicks...

420K power focus is not lots of ammunition. Its a single gun. And if you go through legal channels its only 210K.

I think its obvious that neither of us will convince the other, But that;'s generally how internet debates go.

I'm not saying life should be easy, but things that happen should be logical, not just "you bought something from your friend for life contact who rolled on you, for some reason the star decided to sneak into your factory, and now you're screwed."

But back to the original question: what ways are there to rein in mages at higher karma levels?

I've got the corporate security handbook on order, does it give some good ideas for magical security? If not I'll be a bit miffed at having paid $20 for it.

Character assasination. Ruin their reps. Have the jobs dry up due to their high cost. Have corps trying to actively recruit them. Hell, have universities begging for them to lecture.

BBB?

Big Black Book. Core Rulebook.

Thanks CJ. And 10,000 on a bodyguard gig is good pay AFAIK. I was thinking around 500/day for a low threat job.

I usually let my players get as powerful as they want. If players push the edge of cheesed out characters and become difficult to counter, then I just step the game up a bit. We can go to corny anime-style uber-enemies if we need to. Super powerful AI's, entire units of UCAS military, even ancient vampires with dozens of ghouls. Another old favorite is to send them on a run to the desert and have them face 10 or 20 Anasazi (who I usually kit out to be initiate level 6 adepts backed by a few capable mages).

Even the best of measures can occasionally backfire though. I once had a very powerful runner team that I wanted to give soem trouble to, so I sent in a greater eastern dragon backed by an entire initiate group. Everything was going well (the most powerful of the players only managed a light wound on the dragon) until their rigger got a lucky shot with a great dragon missile. Barbecued the greater eastern and after that the initiates got hammered.

hello gamers all i have to say to this is apparently your gms and or players dont know enough about shadowrun to understand the ease of which a character can die.granted a high level magician is powerfull as hell but theres ways i would suggest reading the rules on karma award and all the other rules..iee the guy that has 1000+ karma first a level 14 elemental is very powerfull my question is this hos did you survive the drain after confuring them unless your charisma is way over the legal limit your looking at a 14d stun on conjuring which your not going to do very often and if you dont get any ,the odds are youll get geeked by the elemental before he leaves.

so gms out there use your brains and understand all the rules.

You may want to read the posts before saying to read the rules. The original poster explained how the drain was resisted: it didn't matter because the drain capped out at Serious. Even if no soaking at all had happened, the mage would have stayed awake and the elemental would have stayed under control.

And oh yeah: punctuation and capilitalization are your friends.

Personally, I have a problem with any runner group taking on a GD by themselves head-on, five billion karma or no.

For one thing, Great Dragons did not get the Great moniker by being really good at Dragon Scrabble or the like. They're Great Dragons because they've been through a couple Ages your characters have not. They know magic that hasn't even been 'invented' yet. They've survived the Horrors, which, when/if unleashed, would eat your PCs for lunch. Most likely, they're more powerful than any group of runners. A head-on confrontation ends in crispy karma flakes. That's if your player characters miraculously get into a head-on confrontation at all: these are ancient beings quite skilled at not having to get their hands dirty when they don't need to. They set up ambushes with their cronies. They find somebody else to kill you.

I will grant you that a group of runners could get significant backing from another Great Dragon or megacorp or large group and perhaps take on a Great Dragon. Maybe. With lots of luck, really excellent planning and amazing resources. This typically isn't something that is expressed in terms of karma, however. It has to do with the player/GM makeup and the plot established for the given game. And they most likely wouldn't duke it out Wild West style, but have the dragon trip on a nuke or get shot into space, or other various ambushes, surprise attacks or other
shadowy methods to do Mr. GD in. And you had better hope that that was another Great Dragon helping you, because guess what. You just took down a Great Dragon. One of them. That might just, maybe, perhaps, get the attention of the others.

So Great Dragons, I would think, are fairly hard to take on for any karma level. But let's just say that you or your GM don't like Great Dragons as fairly super powerful beings. Let's say that in your game, Great Dragons can get smooshed by extremely powerful Shadowrunners on their lonesome. This still leaves some very good obstacles in the way of powerful Shadowrunners, magic or no.

As has been mentioned before, there's space. Magic doesn't work there, and it takes very, very little to kill you. The whole Target: Wastelands supplement is excellent in detailing environs which aren't terribly easy to navigate-for anyone. On that note, there's also the mana storms of the Australian Outback. Have a powerful one land on the characters-and stay there.

The GM could also bring the Horrors on early. If Great Dragons aren't all that powerful, maybe Dunkie can't hold off the Horrors as long as he thought he could.

Now, some of these might not be possible for you or your players or your GM. Or maybe you are just so freaking powerful as a PC that none of what I mentioned has any relevance.

That's what a PC's contacts and family are for. An enemy who cannot take your character head on is likely to target the ones the PC loves and cares about. This way, while the character may survive anything thrown at them, they may wish they hadn't.

And if the character in question has covered every single possible angle with their massive amounts of karma and sheer universal power, then I guess in that case they won the Shadowrun.

Time to start a new game.

I'd actually bet dollars to nuyen that Great Dragons are good at Dragon Scrabble. They've been around longer, generally speak more languages, and seriously, who would call them on the word "limo"?

Oh, I'm not saying they aren't. I'm just saying that's not the single qualifier to be called a 'Great' Dragon.

I would assume that all Great Dragons have the Active Skill: Dragon Scrabble at a good level 10 or so.

I mean, I'm just sayin'.

I use mine as a big coaster. I can get nine beer cans on it.

Doorstop! That's what I could use it for. I've been using mine as a paperweight forever, but have been trying to think of something else it would be good for. Thanks!

In regards to the Great Dragon not putting itself in a vulnerable position: that's the main point I was trying to make.

If you can get the drop on the dragon in question, I don't see why naval damage or nukes won't put a few dents in its armor. The main point of the thread seemed to be in terms of magic. Not to mention, a GD's magical prowess would probably allow it to, oh I don't know, pull a Neo on those Howitzer shells.

I've even had a player roll out a starting troll who could knock out a dragon with a punch.
Granted, he wasn't a very smart troll...

I've found mine are quite usefull as excersize equipment. You know you're truly a game dork when you owe your cut pectorals and tone biceps not to working out, but lugging around you 95 pounds of Shadowrun material to game sessions during the week.

Gyro: Was this troll by any chance called Wallhacker?

Kevyn: Yeah I agree but other people don't. After all Horrors were able to beat humans armed with pointy sticks, and really what's the threat difference between a pointy stick and an aircraft carrier armed with tacnukes? Go Humans.

Oh no, if I recall he was called "Tongo, Eater of Souls".

'cept, really, he'd eat anything.

Okay. I'm going to try and answer this one last time because there's something about this whole thread that seems absurd to me, and it's not the existence of the high-powered mage.

I'll ignore most of your other responses as they were mostly just opinionated down-talk in regards to people and events you have no knowledge of. No offense is taken however, as I would have not put such a question on an online forum if I did not expect to have to wade through said responses. I did like one thing which you mentioned, however:

Glad I could help, but if that's all that you gained from reading my post then my opinion of you is now lower than my opinion of your GM.

I'll Dragon Scrabble you for it.

Whoever wins gets to claim true and overwhelming Shadowrun superiority.

Scrabble on!!