I thought you wanted ideas to stall powergaming.

The main point people seem to be missing is it's up to the gm to balance the game, if you have power players in your group that are buff, then balance the opposition, in the end we as gms do not need to cheat or come up with crazy ideas to kill the PCs, if you have big pcs make adventures harder, up the levels of the npcs. Once a character gets to the level in which greater dragons ask him out to lunch and offer to pay, that pc group tends to only take reall really high risk high profile jobs. Since it tend to be high profile that should keep the player s in check, not to attract unwanted attention. there's always someone bigger or better.

The rule allowing Karma Pool use between adventures is an *Optional* rule. (Extended Actions, SR3.246)

To me it appears that using that rule is causing problems in your campaign. I've played in multiple campaigns that have reached the 300+ Karma mark, and we never allow that rule, as it would cause problems.

Another house rule we used in two campaigns: Karma Pool dice used for a spell that is Quickened, Sustained, put in a Sustaining Focus or Anchored will not refresh till the spell is gone (or the next regular refresh point, whichever is later). This rule helps with the problems you describe, and was specifically designed to address the issues you have raised.

You asked for help with a high Karma game -- these are things that have been successfully used in such games.

I'm still slowly unlearning 2nd edition so I'm kind of using ya'll to help smack it out of me. Thanks OurTeam! That's the kind of little stuff I'm looking for. Yes! Yes! Good!

*sniffle* I'm just reeling from the idea that Bloodsport starring Van Damme...wasn't true!

Heh.

Anyway, if comics are any guide, often the best way to defeat the hero with uberpowers, or at very least mess with their head, is to not assault them directly, but screw with their surroundings.

Otherwise, and I believe the sentiment has been expressed by others as well, if you're a GM and you can no longer adequately develop what you consider realistic challenges for your powerful PCs, perhaps its time to start anew. So the players don't feel like they're completely getting the shaft, talk with them, maybe figure out what they can do with new characters that don't start off at generic base levels. Give them a 1/10th bonus (or less) to starting karma values (if uses Becks) or somesuch to their new characters, maybe a boost in initial resources. Like waiving their resources rating entirely giving them half a mil nuyen for chargen (that must be used, remainders are lost) in addition to whatever more resources they want to purchase.

Nice rant, but nobody said Harlequin was unbalanced, just that it gives a good amount of karma.

Well that's something I can agree on.

I agree that's it is all the GM's responsibility to keep higher karma characters challenged. I've got a group of 300-400+ karma characters and they are absolutely terrified and paranoid with every run they take. A few of them, including the token bullet-magnet Troll, have come close to dying more than once. And it doesn't matter how much karma you've got if you get capped in the crown by some kid with a street line special when you weren't paying attention.

That better be one scary ass kid to punch throug high karma characters' high Body and tons of rerolls with his single shot 4L pistol and +4 called shot modifier.

so yeah, I think those mages really need to be implemented more seriously in those GM's games.

like, cmon. If you have a rating 14 elemental, youre gonna need tha big a circle arent you? fragging Dunkelzhan might have had that...correct me if Im wrong.
That's serious mojo. Your hermetic circle would need to be 12 metres in diameter...that's huge, yo. like, gymnasium or warehouse huge...airport hangar huge.
so first, get that big of space. legally or otherwise.
that may require a whole game session right there, maybe breaking into a warehouse or gymnasium to raise an elemental. Would take a fragging long time, clearing space, drawing the circle, and then the ritual. sleep may be required in between.
but if the mage has the money and buys the space, wards it and sh*t, it's gonna be a beacon from astral space.
and if the barrier and hermetic circle are masked, someone of greater initiation should notice it and take action.

I had a buddy who's character got over 250 I think. His character evolved. Was always an amazing sorcerer adept, working for the yakuza. had mad rep in Japan and then went to Seattle. Gained alot more Karma, and eventually I found out he was a drake.

Mages and Shamans walking around unmasked with that kind of power are just asking to get either taken advantage of or outright killed. I believe there should always be a fine line that a mage walks.
Dragons and other intergalactic drek likes to keeps it eye on who's moving and shaking the magic industry. Us newcomers to Magic in this Sixth World think we own the place and can just start setting up shop (example, force 14 elementals, AKA baby dragons and force 14 hermetic circles).
Alot of Magic does go unchecked, rating 1-3, but once you start breaking 4, it's gonna draw attention unless it's masked, and even then the drek just gets deeper if someone can see through your mask.
Wizzer gangs for one, I'm sure, would love to bust up a fragging rating 14 hermetic circle and see what else they can get their hands on. Oh, what do you know! A F*CKING RATING 14 CONJURING LIBRARY! WhOO!
(if the gangers could kill the mage, that is... but you gotta try!)

The overpowered PC's are definately stepping on someone elses toes. Let them know. Bring the noise.

[I]Lord Doombringer of the Fallen looked out of his tower on the Seattle landscape.
'Mmm. I will own their souls...every...last...one...'
A servant approaches. He turns to accept the offered chalice of blood.
'Noone shall stand between me and my power!' he raises the chalice, his servant kneeling humbly before he.
Blood trickles down his face, he casts the chalice aside. The power flows through him...
'MUWAWAHA! I am the strongest and most power-...no, I'm not...what is this?...Great power amassing...Near the water.'
The evil lord snaps into an astral trance, immediately noticing the slow yet steady construction of the powerful circle.
'How did I not notice this power earlier? His soul must be mine!'[I]

And thus began Doombringer's campaign to get the soul of that rogue mage of great power. But Doombringer isn't the only one...other's have noticed this great power. Critters, Dragons, other magical shit...

Great magic of that quantity has to be confronted. Get it over with every couple playing sessions or so...the mage doesn't deserve to grow that powerful unchecked by other magical entities. in my humble opinion.

You can't magically heal injuries from drain either, so that Serious would is going to take some time to heal up. I don't allow Karma Pool use on healing time rolls either.

Hey Ourteam I really like the idea of the karma spent on qucikened spells and the like being "frozen" in them. Currently our group just allows PCs to spend karma pool once during down time. Also during our games we say karma pool refreshes once the run is over, not every scene or 24 hours. The problem with magical characters overshadowing the mundies, comes from the fact that awakened PCs are simply better. I don't mean that in a cool factor or more indepth way, just that power wise they are stronger. Just being able to read someone's aura is such a crazy ability, it alone sets them above mundies. Then factor in spellcasting, adept powers and conjuring and it stacks higher. Other things in their favor are shadow effects of those, metamagics than enhance those magic skills, spell defense or protection, and the ability to effetively combat spirits. Now then people say well my sammy has kid stealth legs, my decker has a math spu, my rigger has a vcr 3. Well an awakened character can have that stuff too. While it does set them back, Geasing that set back pretty much negates it. I do agree it takes a good and experienced GM to help curb this inbalance, I don't think that is the key. In addition to a good GM, you have to have a group of player's that can also see the imbalance and be willing to adjust their characters with it in mind. In my experience a great GM still will be unable to keep magical characters in check if the players are not willing to be kept in check. You need players that are focused on making the game fun, not their character "the best". As for a way to do this, I have found that begining Sammies can start out "better" than begining mages. Most GMs curb this by denying cybered PCs a lot at character generation. While the wires 3, smartlink 2, Pistols(predator) 5/7, reflex recorder, may seem really good at first, it will not seem so great when the mage who is sheilded later, gets inc.Init +3d6, a laser sighted SMG, and a quickened F6 enhanced Aim. I have started letting up on what cybered PCs start with, because in the end (assuming they live that long) the awakened PCs will pass them up in terms of overall power.

and then there's this scenario...
Busy office environment. People scurrying about in military uniforms. a nervous officer knocks requests entry at a security door.
code is punched in, screen blips to life. a soldiers face in a buzz cut looking sternly at the screen.
'at ease, private.'
'uh, sir...you're not gonna believe this.'
'what? I'm busy.'
'Force 12. Tacoma docks. I've never seen one this big.'
'really? call HQ right away. dispatch a reconisence unit and alert Lonestar to stand down.'
'yes, sir!'

thus entailing a military action against this loose cannon. He can threaten Seattle, gaddang it!

Just one question: how do these mages notice a force anything circle being drawn when its inside a building? Astral perception doesn't let you see through walls.

I don't know where you guys are all coming up with this "Astral Beacon" stuff. Yes, it will be quite apparrent by looking at a high force conjuring circle that it is very powerful. You have to look at it first, though. I seriously doubt lonestar astral patrols go through private property without warrants (and if they do it would only be a matter of time until the drek hits the fan). Also, a rating 14 conjuring circle would only cost 196 ¥ to paint on the ground, and it would only be dual natured while actively being used for magic. My biggest doubts about the example summoning of that level is the rating 12 specialization. That should take years to learn.

My group plays a 2nd edition game where all the characters are getting close to about 200 karma. Boy, do we ever have problems with magic overpowering the mundanes. As a GM, my big problem is with the spells that imitate the effects that street sams use cyberware to produce. Nobody has any incentive to pay 5 essence for Wired 3 when they can get the shaman to use Increase Initiative on them. They don't get the reaction bonus that the wired reflexes give, but a) that's a small price to pay to keep 5 essence and b) it's still about as good as Wired 2. Basically, with the proper spells, the only useful cyber is matrixware and possibly a VCR. If I ever start up another SR campaign as the GM, I think I'm going to make the following drastic changes, both of which I already know will earn me hatred on these forums:

1) Disallow player character magicians. I like playing campaigns that go a long time, and I hate having one character be incredibly more powerful than the others.

2) Have cyberware available that makes characters immune to certain spells, or invisible to astral perception, or similar effects. Mundanes shouldn't have to rely on magicians for protection from other magicians, just like magicians don't have to rely on mundanes for anything. In fact, I should try to implement this in the game I'm currently playing. I'd also have technological devices that mimicked just about every spell or metamagical technique I can think of that isn't already mimicking the effect of a technological device. Such as electronic ward generators and something that allows one to travel to the metaplanes without needing a magician to hold one's hand.

Yay for throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

It's not hatred--it's the lack of an understanding and explanation as to how the cyber works.

Your game. Your players' problem.

I must have been truly blessed. I played with the same roleplaying group for some twelve years, and we used to play a lot of SR (1st and 2nd ed). Our prime characters had racked up some 250 karma apiece.

And yet, we suffered none of the unbalanced overpowered stuff you lot talk about. Our primo mage was a Grade 5 Initiate - but he had a bunch of other skills as well. One of the hardest characters in the game had a synaptic accelerator and a spell barrier focus - that was it. Nobody felt eclipsed by anyone else, nobody was grimly overpowered compared to anyone else (or if they were, it never noticed), and we sure as hell didn't have rating 14 elementals knocking about.

So I venture the opinion that it's not the rules that are the problem, nor even the characters - it's the players.

I'm not positive, but, in SR3, I think that whenever an Elemental is sent on a service outside (such as inside a tank or building) of the Conjuror's Line of Sight it is considered a "Remote Service" meaning that all other services are void, and the spirit departs once this service is complete.

I also rule that there must be enough "space" for the spirit to Materialize where ever that takes place.

So what you're saying is that the Star likes to go into random warehouses just for the fun of it? A megacorp doesn't do anything that doesn't have a payoff, and random warehouse searches costs a lot more than it could ever make.

A group that has earned 300+ karma doesn't have the kind of contacts that let their doings slip. You don't survive that long if that happens.

Game mechanically, the Wrong Party tests can be applied to people enquiring about the runners too. And unless the people looking for the runners have level 3 contacts with level 3 contacts in turn, word will get back to the runners that someone is looking for them.

And that's but one way they can draw heat. There is a plethora of other more insidious and very plausible methods. 300+ karma isn't the point that run completion is a given.

I think the first potential slip among contacts would be the talismonger.
is that where are you getting these summoning supplies?
(unless you go out in nature and get them yourself...which would probably require an INSANE amount of time and skill/luck considering you need force 12 or 14 supplies)


or what if you dont know any talismonger who has that serious of mojo? you may have to start asking around...
"you want force WHAT conjuring supplies?!" (of course those people you ask are gonna remember you)

And lets say your talismonger can get you the stuff...where does he get it? It may draw attention from his/her supplier...
"why do you want these high rating goods? what megacorp or military organization are you hooking up anyway? I thought you were just dealing low end wares to runners...Who is this going to, exactly"

BAM! You're sold out... but you wont know. Talismonger gets back to you, saying hes got your sh*t.
Meanwhile, someones waiting for you to use them. hell, the supplies themselves may even be astrally tracked.

I think it is important that you all read Mensche's post. He makes one of the best points thus far.

Yes, but game mechanically, it will be:

"You want enough ritual material to summon an elemental that can take on an army regiment?"

"Yeah, you heard me right."

"OK. Come back, Avail weeks/days/hours and I'll have it ready for you."

And

"Say chummer, you got enough material for a Force 14 elemental?"

"Yeah, I've got it. But it is tough to get stuff like that but since you are my blood brother (Level 3 Contact) I'll keep it quiet for you."

And this is not precluding the fact that the mage/shaman could simply get the stuff himself during downtime. Or

"Ma! Do you know where is the stockpile of ritual material that Grandma kept?"

"Yeah, the Force 14 Air elemental stuff is gathering dust in Level 12, the rest of the Force 14s are in Level 13 of the missle silo Grandpa bought, dear."

Don't worry, you won't upset me. It's not the way I run the game, its the way the character in question's game was run.

I tend to think that a level 3 contact is of high enough quality that it doesn't matter what his contacts are. Even if they sell him out, he won't sell you out.

I also think that its possible for someone to spend their own time getting summoning supplies. Remember, you don't ask "can I get enough to summon a force 14 elemental" you ask "can I get enough to summon 14 force 1 elementals". I could be wrong, but I doubt that's going to set off any alarms.

~200 worth of hermetic circle materials also won't set off any alarms either. Or do you send the Star looking for mages that want to summon 6 force 6 elementals with the flexibility of doing them all at different locations?

This isn't "serious mojo" we're talking about here. It's less materials than someone wanting to summon 6 force 6 elementals would require.

Sure, there's going to be smoke if you summon earth or fire, but there are plenty of ways to get around that, the easiest of which is to just summon earth and water. But if you really want flight or fire, get yourself a building in the sticks somewhere, that nobody cares if they're sending up smoke. Hell, if its a factory they would get more suspicious if it didn't send up smoke.

I'm not saying I would make such a thing easy in my game, and I doubt we'll ever reach that point. But if we do, I'll find more logical reasons to make things difficult than "you bought a little bit of chalk and lit a few fires, the megacorps and the Star are looking for you."

And as the original poster said, those elementals were never used unless needed. Doing something every 4-5 runs (if that often) does not constitute an M.O.

I'd think force 14 materials would have to be higher quality, not just 14 sets of scrub materials.

On a side note: I found the sheet of that one mage we had problems challenging (the one who finally bit a tactical nuclear weapon). Luckily we made it mandatory to track acculated karma for record-keeping purposes.

1713 accumulated good karma.

Yep, that's 6 years worth of thrice-a-weeks to once-a-months.

edit: The guy's bio (he kept notes on the runs) reads like the memoirs of an immortal elf. Man, what great memories this brings back. I went through about 15 characters while this guy was still running

Oh man, that's unreal. Seriously, I've never heard of someone having that much accumulated karma.

That's cool though, as long as it was fun. I'm sure there's a cubic butt ton of stories to tell.