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Crimsondude 2.0
Okay, that does it.

I've been around here since the Deep Res forum first opened in various guises. In all that time and all those years, I have rarely if ever resorted to insults and character assassination. When I have, I have later apologized. The only time I did not apologize was when I was temporarily banned for being arrogant, which I will never apologize for.

But I'll be goddamned if I am going to sit here and take any crap anymore. I dare you to find anyone here who has consistently posted correct, cohesive, logical posts, often times with citations to the original source with as much depth and frequency as I have. I especially dare you to do so in the last three months, where the majority of my posts have included at least one reference to a SR book or other aspect of canon in an attempt to answer your* questions, because I am apparently a magnanimous idiot. Sure, I have attempted to add a measure of levity to some threads when it has been appropriate, or I engage in in-joke banter with some close acquaintances about a physad whose primary purpose seems to be 'punching bag' or about Nadja Daviar's dark brown nipples, but I have also spent hours writing out single posts describing such things as the DeeCee Sprawl with much better authority and detail than that fucking hack Steve Kenson ever did. I have been willing to admit myself wrong to the whole DS world when it came to SoE and in fact turned out to love the book and posted a rather long review of just one chapter because I felt it only necessary to explain why I did a 180 on the book and that specific chapter.

I have spent too many hours, blown off too many other priorities for this forum and to help you all out because I could, and my fall semester grades have proven that resoundingly. For the last five years, I have tried... God, have I tried... not to get involved in petty arguments, or character assassinations on this site. I have done my best to never step into a thread without being informed and bringing as much intellect as I could to a thread, especially the old Lounge threads, because to do otherwise is a waste of my time and all of yours.

I could defend myself if I wanted. I could tell you that I was angry and distracted when I wrote that response, and that it has been the cherry on the sundae of suck to events which have transpired for months that you did not know about, and never will, because I leave my life off this site, and I have done it for you all.

But I won't defend myself for that comment, or for any other comment I have posted over the years. The comment had information in it. The comment had ideas in it. The comment had a context of my complete lack of comprehension at the very nature of the conflict presented. But it was not some childish attempt at name-calling and insult, and it offends me to even be accused of making such a post.

I will not defend myself, to you Cynic, or to anyone here.

And, I will not waste anymore of my time on any of you here.


*"you" = all DS users.
FrostyNSO
You go Crimsondude, you don't owe anything to us bastards. notworthy.gif

I have actually found your posts to be relevant, informative, and entertaining. Don't let the dregs get you down.
RedmondLarry
Hey Crimson, I like your posts. I find them valuable.

But school work should come first. I never graduated from anything after discovering roleplaying games. Keep your priorities straight, man.
Tarantula
Easy way to kill the mage. Small rigger spotter drone, something with a sig of 12. Big ship in the ocean, with a vaporizer railgun on it. Max range of 16,000. Battletac FDDM on ship, spotter, and riggers deck. Fire. Dead mage.
ShortBusFury
QUOTE
I dare you to find anyone here who has consistently posted correct, cohesive, logical posts, often times with citations to the original source with as much depth and frequency as I have. I especially dare you to do so in the last three months, where the majority of my posts have included at least one reference to a SR book or other aspect of canon in an attempt to answer your* questions, because I am apparently a magnanimous idiot.


If you're getting upset because of people not taking your word as canon or for the pearls of wisdom that your are dropping then maybe you should take a step back and look at things from a different point of view. You *were* talking down to me in tone and implying ineptness on the part of a GM you have no data on. Reread your post and imagine you were on the receiving end of it. I came here for help and you gave attitude. When I get attitude I, like most people, tend to return it. I'm very well aware that you may not have been aware of coming across as insulting. I have noticed on many threads that you tend to get attitude back quite a bit. I wouldn't give up on the forums just 'cause you can't take what you dish out. Realize that not everyone is going to share your opinion... especially not in a world-encompassing speakeasy that is an internet forum. You put someone on the defensive and they are not likely to listen to much you have to say. If all you're doing is adamantly dolling out your own ideas and berating people for the things they are doing wrong then maybe you should re-evaluate your personal definition on the word 'help'. I am an arrogant bastard myself, I will admit, so I am speaking from experience. You shouldn't give up on something you obviously enjoy. I hate to sound corny, but... be like the willow, not the oak. Bend, don't break bro.
James McMurray
So does anyone have any more ideas on what mundanes can do to level the playing field against spellcasters?

Let's say, for instance, you have a world-spanning organization of magic-haters, trying to bring down the witchcraft using devils that are slowly destroying the moral fabric of the world. What do you do against such powerful opposition?

A few things that have been mentioned:

- camp out around backgroud counts and mana warps

- spotter drones and naval artillery

- ensure your bases are scout proof (easier if you use the 2nd ed. rule about projecting through living material)

- destroy the opposition's rep. They may have magical power, but you can try to prevent them from getting political or social power

- have the entrances to your bases rigged up to make passing through them invisibily much harder: 2' deep water in the hallways will be uncomfortable, but leave nice empty holes where the invisible guy is walking

- hit them through their friends and family. All the power in the world won't help you if you're afraid to aanything because the enemy has your mom dangling over a pot of boiling oil.

I think we can all agree that you can ramp up the power on enemy mages to challenge magically active and karmically advanced characters. Or combine spirits, magic, and assault weaponry to good effect. But what can us mundanes do?
Tarantula
"Us" mundanes can bomb them, rigger assaults are the heavy hand of mundanes. The best thing about the naval, is they're not likely to care about a little drone flying near them, if they are, theres not a whole lot they can do to affect it, other than mostly powerbolt or wreck(rotodrone). Powerbolts are rather hard to get to fully affect the drone, especially considering that the rigger will be going before the mage 99% of the time.
kevyn668
Which mundanes? PCs or NPCs?

NPCs...splatguns, smoke grenades, ruthinium.

PCs...splatguns, smoke grenades, ruthinium, and pocessing skills the mage doesn't. wink.gif

Just read Trantual's post: I'd say your percentage is off. Most people around here favor a rating one Sustaining Focus for Improved Reflexes 3 right out of the gate.
BitBasher
Regardelss of where someone may perceieve his attitude I largely agree with everything that Crimsondude has said.

I have run campaigns past 300+ karma and the mages never really became unbalanced versus the other characters.

Pretty much every example of mages becoming horribly imbalanced has been the result of a GM not properly enforcing the limitations of the magically active. This includes background count, enemies, proper LOS, Alarm wards, destroying active foci from astral space, foci addiction, proper time spent to lear spells, proper time spent to aquire gear, Mana warps, astral shallows... The list goes on and on.

Even aquiring a force 14 conjuring library should be a pretty good pain in the ass, as should someplace to put a force 14 summoning circle, and aquire the force 14 summoning materials. The skill takes a boatload of time to learn, and should really take a mentor which would be nigh impossible to find and probably an adventure or two in itself.

To boot, while the mage spends karma on skills and spells and initiation, the mundanes are spending that on raw skills, meaning that for an equal amount of karma the mundanes should have significantly higher skills. Also, the mundanes by now should have had many, many opportunities to upgrade cyber and gear.

Also, in order to survive the harrier moments the team (and the individuals) should have blown a pretty sizeable amount of their karma pool, which should make it somewhat self limiting. At 100 karma in a campaign in my experience the karma pool is rarely over 6. In a 300 karma campaign the pool is rarely over 12. Mechanically the more karma they have the more lethal things get because there's a finer line between surviving and dying. Things that damage them are high enough power that if they don't dodge, they probably die.

On the issue of great dragons, just the fact they dragons may have a couple hundred karma pool and have been alive for tens of thousands of years means a team should never be able to reastically take one head on. It's their anchored, quickened and sustained spells that will get you. It's their divination. They know you are coming probably before you do. They are basically impossible to ambush because of that. Not to mention their karma warping abilites, where they can spend a karma pool to make you reroll all your sucesses. unless the GM is in fact incompetent (IMHO) a party stands absolutely no chance against a GD. These creatures are smart enough no human GM can realistically portray their intelligence. That's my main problem with using them. The players can outsmart the GM, but the characters can never realistically outthink a GD.
Tarantula
QUOTE (kevyn668)
Which mundanes? PCs or NPCs?

NPCs...splatguns, smoke grenades, ruthinium.

PCs...splatguns, smoke grenades, ruthinium, and pocessing skills the mage doesn't. wink.gif

Just read Trantual's post: I'd say your percentage is off. Most people around here favor a rating one Sustaining Focus for Improved Reflexes 3 right out of the gate.

VCR3 = init is +6reaction + 3d6 (so Reaction+6+4d6 total). That pretty much always trumps Imp Ref 3.
kevyn668
QUOTE (Tarantula)
QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Jan 22 2005, 02:07 PM)
Which mundanes? PCs or NPCs?

NPCs...splatguns, smoke grenades, ruthinium.

PCs...splatguns, smoke grenades, ruthinium, and pocessing skills the mage doesn't. wink.gif

Just read Trantual's post: I'd say your percentage is off. Most people around here favor a rating one Sustaining Focus for Improved Reflexes 3 right out of the gate.

VCR3 = init is +6reaction + 3d6 (so Reaction+6+4d6 total). That pretty much always trumps Imp Ref 3.

Assuming every rigger out there has VCR 3...but whatever. If you want to say that riggers go first 99% of the time, go for it. Just remember, 96.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot. nyahnyah.gif
FrostyNSO
In our campaign, we are at about 150-180 good karma on average. The players average about 1 or 2 karma pool.

The mage, conversely, has none.

Bitbasher is correct. Most cases of overpowered characters are due to GM's not knowing the ways to counter the characters. They may be great GM's, just uninformed. Reading the first post on this thread reminds me of my first days GMing, when I didn't know the rules quite so well as I do now.
Tarantula
In my example, I meant for said rigger to have a VCR3. Besides, if you have naval weapons, you have a VCR3.

99% of the time is obviously a false statistic, but meaning the majority. In the instances in which the rigger doesn't go first, the mage can't do a whole lot to stop it. At best, they could powerbolt the drone, provided they know powerbolt at a high enough force to affect it. Hell, the rigger could just use 3 drones, that aren't close enough to ball all 3 at once. Done. Even if one gets fried, the other drones can easily get the lock, and then the ship shoots the mage.
kevyn668
I was just nitpicking your 99% thing. smile.gif
Tarantula
Heh. Just to add to my side. The riggers minimum initiative will be 10+reaction. The mages will be 4+reaction. Which will usually go first?

Another rigger way to kill the mage. Run them over, with a vehicle. Sure, they might have lots of reaction and such, but if the vehicle just comes by, then splat, most mages don't have a vehicle barrier spell anchored.
kevyn668
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Heh.  Just to add to my side.  The riggers minimum initiative will be 10+reaction.  The mages will be 4+reaction.  Which will usually go first?

Another rigger way to kill the mage.  Run them over, with a vehicle.  Sure, they might have lots of reaction and such, but if the vehicle just comes by, then splat, most mages don't have a vehicle barrier spell anchored.

Well, since you want to back and forth, usually is still not 99%. smile.gif

I don't kow what you're trying to prove here. You threw out an obviously inflated statistic. I called you on it.

I thought you'd do something like this:
QUOTE
Fine, Kev. The rigger will not act first 99% of the time. The rigger will act first most of the time. Happy, now? Jerk. smile.gif


Run the mage over with a car? Thats the new plan? rotfl.gif
FrostyNSO
Or better yet, a garbage truck.
kevyn668
Why am I reminded of the library scene from the first Ghostbusters? smile.gif
James McMurray
We now add hit them with a car to the list.

Any other ideas?
kevyn668
Pickpokets.
ShortBusFury
Pickpockets definately has potential... that's a good suggestion. Stealing a well-protected personal foci may be a bit tough to snatch and would also be immediately noticed by the owner, but why take such a risk when there are other valuable and less secure items that the mage takes for granted? Especially if the runner is hoarding telesma and ritual materials. Units could simply begin 'disappearing' unless the PC begins allocating time and resources to the defense of his stockpiled resources to find out where his reources are vanishing to and it may even be a good month or so before he realizes what's going on... maybe some of his resources even get swapped for fakes to cover the thieve's track for the time being that might later end up on a botched ritual casting or summoning on the PC's part not knowing that he isn't using real ritual materials until the poo starts to fly.
Tarantula
Another one, blowgun with narcoject/atropine. Either 7D immidiate, or 7D every 15minutes until its purged out. Its a blowgun dart not a bullet, so bullet barriers won't help, and just do a called shot to bypass armor. I'd think a blowgun adept could get this done easily enough.

Another idea, give a kid a squirtgun, with DMSO & atropine/cyanide/narcoject, pay kid 50 to go squirt that guy.

Yet another one, have some woman attempting to seduce him, get offended, and pepper punch, lots and lots of pepper punch. Then the team shes working with comes in to get him, throws a mage hat on him.

Another, splat gun his face, hard to see through goo. Or freezefoam it.

Air-timed minigrenades anyone? Concussion ones can be nasty. Or flash/superflash.

Something else that might work, blind adept with all the blind swordsman style built up. And superflash packs in his eyes, walks up masked to mage, flashes mage to hell and back, then cuts mage in half.
bitrunner
gamma scopolamine - invented specifically to fight mages...added benefit of being a truth serum as it wears off...
Tarantula
Nitpick, no, gamma-scopolamine wasn't invented specifically to fight mages.
Crimson Jack
QUOTE
We now add hit them with a car to the list.

Any other ideas?


This list isn't real any longer, right?
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Nadja Daviar's dark brown nipples

Hey, what's this about? Anyone care to elaborate?
kevyn668
QUOTE (FrostyNSO @ Jan 22 2005, 08:10 PM)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jan 22 2005, 02:54 AM)
Nadja Daviar's dark brown nipples

Hey, what's this about? Anyone care to elaborate?

You're kidding right?

She's one of the characters in the Dragon Heart Trilogy. There was this ridiculous sex scene with her and Ryan Mercury. I laugh everytime I think of it...Anywho, it appears to have been written by a 13 yearold nerd and does in fact describe her nipples in detail. And how she perfers sex...You gotta chekc it out. Its hilarious! smile.gif
bitrunner
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Nitpick, no, gamma-scopolamine wasn't invented specifically to fight mages.

ok.... wink.gif
waftalia
lets start with this one.every group is different but lets all conciede tothis point the average run makes you 4-5 karma points and should take on average 14 hours to complets if its roleplayed out.usually two game sessions for my group.second the average pay for a shadowrun suggested by fasa is 3x the average monthly upkeep of the group so conjuring a dorce 14 elemental is possible even with a target # of 14 though not practical.as a good dm one must consider how upset a elemental is when conjured.now lets put it in a scenario a mage has aquired the large conjuring circle and the material to do it which is feasable.hes just conjured a 14 fire elemental from its native plane suffered serious drain the elemental appears the mages friends aere here to protect the mage just in case . now comes the actual roleplaying part to the whole mechanics of the game {14 fire elemental thats uber bad really tough it also now sees a very weakened magician that conjured him would the weakened magician really have what it takes to keep control in that brief instence?in my game maybe not thats the price you pay for dealing in magic that powerfull and creatures that powerfull.maybe once you keep control the second time you dont and it wipes out half your team youd think twice about doing it again.

now granted thats not exactly in the rules but hey doesnt shadowrun like all good games tell you to add or delete depending on your own group?

my point is this if your mages are lucky enough to stay alive for that many shadowruns again and again and again without being killed and you want to play with a little commonsence realism to it then adapt the game to it.

weve all heard or seen movies or read books about magic this powerfull being done the slightest thing gone wrong spells disaster for the party.was the conjuring done in a wharehouse during the 14 hours it took?why didnt the local gangers come by to see what all the commotion was ie..a blazing fire,large swimming pool being set up ,dumptruck of dirt being moved it ect.....maybe thats another table rule we have but the conjuring material must be proportianate with the elemental being conjured.how about lone star seeing the fire ect.....

as of multiple karma awards being used, our rule is this no downtime karma usage ,karma is used in the heat of the moment on a run when the stakes are high not again and again during downtime ....yet again just a party rule we have.

i think its been said already if your gm is uncapable of handling a group with that much karma he shouldnt because it wont be done realistically.

ive been dming various games for 20 years and have come across the gambit of groups and players and have seen a lot of it not all but a lot and anytime a groups upset beacause of game inbalance or specific character imbalance its usually traceable to the gm .....our groups been together for 10solid years and have realized if at anytime you forget the game your playing is a fantasy world where things fluctuate and are never constant and your stuck because the rule says so its time to take a break and remember why your playing.
Voran
QUOTE (kevyn668)
Why am I reminded of the library scene from the first Ghostbusters? smile.gif

You are an evil evil man. Unbidden my mind is now dredging up once forgotten quips and one liners from that movie. And I'm probably going to have to go rent it again too. Damnit.
Crimson Jack
QUOTE
lets start with this one.every group is different but lets all conciede tothis point the average run makes you 4-5 karma points and should take on average 14 hours to complets if its roleplayed out.


I don't think that this is something that everyone has to concede on. By the book, you can gain a little more than this and the 14 hour thing might be a bit long. But, its not outside the realm of possibility.

QUOTE
in my game maybe not thats the price you pay for dealing in magic that powerfull and creatures that powerfull.


I believe that there is quite a bit of agreement with you on this one, however the GM in question isn't too concerned with this element of his mage's actions. ohplease.gif

QUOTE
as of multiple karma awards being used, our rule is this no downtime karma usage ,karma is used in the heat of the moment on a run when the stakes are high not again and again during downtime


Agreed. It allows for some crazy stuff to happen in downtime.

QUOTE
ive been dming various games for 20 years and have come across the gambit of groups and players and have seen a lot of it not all but a lot and anytime a groups upset beacause of game inbalance or specific character imbalance its usually traceable to the gm


Heh, yeah, you along with quite a few of the other people on this thread agree. The best person to quote on why this isn't an issue, at least in the mind of the GM, is the GM:

QUOTE
Actually, there's nothing in the campaign that isn't in the core book. That must mean I'm incredibly lame and my game is unbelievably out of control.

Please teach me how to be a real GM! I've only been doing this for 10+ years with players that constantly come back for more campaigns. I'm obviously doing something terribly wrong.

I need your help you big gaming stud!


So, as can clearly be seen, there is no way that this is the GM's fault. Despite the fact that is an issue of controlling the game... this isn't a GM issue. Thus, the reason why we're getting suggestions, and having them taken seriously, like getting hit by cars. Enter the bizarro zone. ohplease.gif
James McMurray
So we've added various chemical compounds to the list. Thanks!

Keep 'em coming folks! It'll probably be 6+ months of gaming every weekend before the mage even gets anywhere near being more powerful than the rest of the party. Anmd luckily we've been blessed this time wit a mage whose player is not the "I have to super-power-game every character" type. But it never hurts to plan ahead. biggrin.gif
Crimson Jack
How about a faerie assault?
toturi
QUOTE (kevyn668)
I don't see why its a debate. Humans would win. smile.gif

Go Humans!!

Ahhhh, I can't believe I missed this!

Ahem! Go... HUMANS!
kevyn668
You had me worried there for a bit. smile.gif
hyzmarca
I'm supprised no one mentioned having a Master Shedim possess his meat body while he's astrally projecting.
toturi
Master Shedim in a GD body does not have access to GD powers.
James McMurray
Faeries and Master Shedims? I know what the first are (but not if they're in Shadowrun), but I haven't a clue about the second ones. I'm still trying to catch up on my 3rd edition reading, so may not have reached the part where they're mentioned. Are they in MitS?
hyzmarca
Shedim are in Year of the Comet; Master Shedim are in Threats 2.

They are nasty spirits that posseses the bodies of the dead. They're also a great way for a GM to really frag off an astrally projecting mage. Nothing's worse than returning to your body only find that there's a squater that just refuses to leave.
Sandoval Smith
Further explanation, Shedim don't just possess dead bodies(they're the reason why cremation is now encouraged world wide, and morgues tend to be warded, with body lockers having sturdy bolts to keep people _in_), but _unoccupied_ bodies. Doesn't matter how powerful that mage is, if he doesn't leave his body protected or guarded when he projects, if a Shedim runs across it it's going to take it for a joy ride, and it's not going to want to give it back. Shedim also like to travel in packs. Bummer about that if you just wasted a security squad and some Shedim show up.

And as to why everyone is ragging on the GM in SB's example, around here we've seen quite a few problems of when characters reach a high power, as well as a lot of characters who didn't create such problems when that powerful or more. Essentially, it's almost always boiled down to things that the GM was doing wrong that allowed one character to get completly out of control.
bitrunner
and Faeries are in Shadows of Europe...they steal children and other nasty stuff...
tisoz
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jan 24 2005, 01:23 AM)
<snip> I'm still trying to catch up on my 3rd edition reading <snip>

Eureka! I've found it!

This revelation combined with the example given of the 2nd Edition character is the key.

The magic rules received some subtle changes that drastically (IMO) changed the power level of the magician. Spell locks got changed to sustaining foci and they are no where nearly as convenient to use, or purchase/find and bond. Anchoring foci are about useless compared to how they could be used in 2nd edition. The enchanting rules changed to make it harder to enchant high force foci and more expensive to reduce the karma cost to bond them.

I noticed about 3 things with the example character that made me go hmmm?
1) Slay bullet? I suppose it's possible, but it's going to have a higher drain than slay/race.
2) Polearm Weapon Focus? How does one get away with carting that around without drawing attention? The weapon itself needs a permit, not even considering its force.
3) Ritual Healing Physical drain damage? Not any more, if it was ever possible.
I think these are 3 things the original GM let slide in the short description given for the example character.

Anyway, if you are now using third edition, read the magic section carefully. There are things that you might be tempted to skim over because they seem the same. Don't. Read the metamagic descriptions, by the way, you only get one metamagic per initiation, not all of them upon first initiation. See what skills are needed to learn that spell or enchant that item, or design the formula for either, then what the skill's linked attribute is. If the skill goes higher than the attribute, it costs more karma to raise.

Apart from noticing the rule changes, consider the other characters in the group. Is the group taking higher paying, higher threat jobs because of the overpowering character? If the rest of the group is consistently getting in over their heads, why do they run with the super guy? If the jobs are to their pay/threat level, why is superguy wasting his time with this penny ante crap? This is how runners get retired.

A solution is the mage spreading his magic around to the other runners. He could give each of the runners a sustaining focus with their choic of spell. Something like Deflect, Combat Sense, Enhance Aim, Increase Reflexes, etc.. This means the mage won't have a bunch of foci available for himself without risking focus addiction, but it reduces the power differential.
LinaInverse
QUOTE (tisoz)
The magic rules received some subtle changes that drastically (IMO) changed the power level of the magician.  Spell locks got changed to sustaining foci and they are no where nearly as convenient to use, or purchase/find and bond.  Anchoring foci are about useless compared to how they could be used in 2nd edition.  The enchanting rules changed to make it harder to enchant high force foci and more expensive to reduce the karma cost to bond them.

And this is why I found this whole thread pathetically overblown. Anyone who thinks 3rdEd magic is overly powerful compared to the other majors (ie, Riggers, Sammies, etc) isn't playing it right.

Playing one myself, I'm still amazed how harshly magic got hit between 2ndEd and 3rdEd. Granted, some was necessary, but in some cases, I feel they went overboard. Anchoring for example, used to be something powerful and useful. Now using 3rdEd, no mage in their right mind would ever anchor a non-personal enchantment, or risk getting hit with multiple drains at the most inopportune moment. Even personal ones, there's almost nothing that Anchoring offers that Quickening/Sustaining Foci/Ally Spirits/etc can't do better with less effort, Karma, cost or risk.
SaraMarr
<A newbie's thoughts- exuberance of the young and all.>

Wouldn't the Mage characters have personal weaknesses?

Hmm, the 7 deadly sins?

No one is invincible, you just need to use their overconfidence and strengths against them. Weave the spider web so that they deceive themselves. They will kill themselves if you let them. Egomania is a powerful weapon.

I was always told that to take someone very powerful down, you need to keep the trap apparently weak, simple, small and let the character or player kill themselves.

Also, there are creatures in the Astral Plane that are so ancient and so powerful that the signature one of these characters would leave, would be like a buffet for them, no?

hmm, I guess I could make a new Archetype, Demi-God Killer.

How many enemies do these people have? or if they are all dead enemies, then were are all the others that would take there place. How long can a mage stay awake? Constant weak anoyance, and no rest could weaken and carbon based unit.

Sorry, to babble. But, I thought free associating would be theraputic.

------------------------------------------------
I shall fade into the west , and remain, SaraMarr. spin.gif
FrostyNSO
SaraMarr has it down.

Using the character's overconfidence against them is great, but the one element you forgot, is that whatever ploy you attempt, must be delivered at a time when it is completely and utterly unexpected.

Small, seemingly trivial things are the ticket (again, as you said). Like this:

You're infilrating a corp facility. Using your magic, and false I.D. badges you are able to get in completely un-noticed. You head to the only elevator that accesses the 30th (top) floor (not wanting to draw attention by taking the stairs).
Unknown to you, the corp knew you would be coming, and planned accordingly. You step into the elevator and press the "30" button. After the doors close, chemical sprayers activate, dowsing the character in DMSo and whatever else the GM deems appropriate for the plot.
Crimson Jack
Yes, good call Sara. Nice to see another Portland player. Our group meets in that area for gaming. smile.gif
James McMurray
QUOTE (LinaInverse)
Anyone who thinks 3rdEd magic is overly powerful compared to the other majors (ie, Riggers, Sammies, etc) isn't playing it right.

Hence why several times both the player (SBF) and the GM (me) have said something along the lines of "there's a change we didn't notice." We only played maybe three sessions of 3rd after hundreds of sessions of 2nd, and a lot of the changes slipped under the radar.

Currently we are using almost all of the rules as written, except that Initiation isn't currently available. That will change as time passes and more magic seeps into the world. Its a storyline change more than a power level change.
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