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toturi
QUOTE (Smiley)
Besides, if you can get something like that cobbled together on the street, imagine what SWAT teams and corp security might have. dead.gif

Two words: Budgets. Accountants. sarcastic.gif
Sandoval Smith
I wouldn't say that they're necessarily more hosed than if the cops picked the runner up with anything else. That would one of the ways they could lose that nice gun of theirs though, and the cops might have some fun playing 'how many codes does this violate' when they examine the piece.

Besides, why would the corps or SWAT teams bother with something weird like that, when they can carry something big and 'practical' legitimately?
Aes
I've been known to make the occasional chopping up of guns using CanComp. My last creation was a nice little close-quarters rifle. The design's back home, but offhand, I seem to recall it being:

Type: Assault Rifle
Power: 8M
Ammo: 15©/15©
Mode: SA/BF
Conceal: 7
Weight: 4.5kg
Mounts: Barrel, Top, Under
Accessories: Internal Smartlink-II, Rangefinder, Gas Vent II
Cost: 4000 nuyen.gif
Availability: 7/1wk

Weighted Barrel and Pullpup configuration on top resulted in a total of 5pts worth of recoil compensation. The double clip means you can switch between two kinds of ammo (say, AP/AV, Regular/Gel, 2 kinds of capsules etc.) as a free action (if you're smartlinked). Weapon ranges are at -10% due to shortened barrel. But integral smartlink rangefinder means it only really affects the maximum range of the weapon. In the campaign, it's an Azzie design, intended to be a backup weapon for urban combat.

CanComp is especially good for filling in the specialty roles that the regular weapons lack. Succh as a heavy pistol with internal silencer, made entirely out of nonmagnetic compotites, firing caseless plastic bullets in 12S bursts and ending up with a concealability of 14 when worn under a coat in its concealable quick-draw holster. biggrin.gif
kevyn668
QUOTE (Aes)
<snip>

CanComp is especially good for filling in the specialty roles that the regular weapons lack.

Or making Con 7 assault rifles...
Arethusa
Oh, come on, kevyn, take off the kid gloves.
BitBasher
That double clip thing is near the dumbest thing I have seen come out of this game system. For that to work the gun could never have a round in the chamber, or the gun would have to eject a round to load the other type. Both would take longer than a free action, not to mention the fact that it's just plain freaking stupid!

Hence disallowed in my game.

I also have a completely reworked version of the FFG that makes significantly more balanced weapons, while retaining the entire base system. Most guns in SR can be duplicated using it, with the costs coming out about right.
mfb
yeah, the double clip thing's nuts.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (mfb)
yeah, the double clip thing's nuts.

Unless you have double barrels.
Prospero
QUOTE (BitBasher)
That double clip thing is near the dumbest thing I have seen come out of this game system. For that to work the gun could never have a round in the chamber, or the gun would have to eject a round to load the other type. Both would take longer than a free action, not to mention the fact that it's just plain freaking stupid!

Hence disallowed in my game.

I also have a completely reworked version of the FFG that makes significantly more balanced weapons, while retaining the entire base system. Most guns in SR can be duplicated using it, with the costs coming out about right.

love.gif Do you have it posted anywhere? I'd really like to see it if possible.
Fortune
Me too, but I was afraid to ask. I'm still waiting for BitBasher's Martial Arts varient. nyahnyah.gif biggrin.gif
TeOdio
I'll admit it, sometimes I'm a lazy GM. I once let a player start with a pretty twink gun (I thought he had made just made some modifications to it). Boy was I wrong. I let him keep it so I wouldn't seem petty, but in the end he ended up losing it anyway. I firmly believe that creating custom drones/vehicles/spells/guns is now sole property of the GM.
Realistically, to create such a fabulous weapon that "everyone" would want takes serious R&D. The game provides rules to create a cost structure, but that doesn't mean you can cobble it together yourself with your freakin tool kit. You need a facility and the room to house it to be able to create a prototype object anyway. If you have a character with that much property why the hell would they be running the Shadows. They should be selling weapons (until they get smoked by Ares or Aztechnology, they hate competition.) If you want a bad ass gun just get a better Etiquette skill and try again for that APDS ammo. biggrin.gif
nuyen.gif nuyen.gif nuyen.gif
DrJest
I vaguely remember in one of the old Shadowlands magazines a rifle that took 2 kinds of ammo by having 2 barrels. I think it was the same one that had the Ares Monsterhammer Very Heavy Pistol and the lever action carbine (I took the latter for a character for sheer style smile.gif ).
BitBasher
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 3 2005, 06:02 PM)
yeah, the double clip thing's nuts.

Unless you have double barrels.

No, even then it's still pretty much universally stupid.
Kanada Ten
So a grenade launcher and a shotgun shouldn't use two different magazines? wink.gif
BitBasher
QUOTE (Prospero)
QUOTE (BitBasher)
That double clip thing is near the dumbest thing I have seen come out of this game system. For that to work the gun could never have a round in the chamber, or the gun would have to eject a round to load the other type. Both would take longer than a free action, not to mention the fact that it's just plain freaking stupid!

Hence disallowed in my game.

I also have a completely reworked version of the FFG that makes significantly more balanced weapons, while retaining the entire base system. Most guns in SR can be duplicated using it, with the costs coming out about right.

love.gif Do you have it posted anywhere? I'd really like to see it if possible.

QUOTE
Me too, but I was afraid to ask. I'm still waiting for BitBasher's Martial Arts varient. nyahnyah.gif biggrin.gif


Hey, like I said It wasn't gonna happen yesterday. biggrin.gif

It'll happen in a few hours when I get home. smile.gif

And yes, I can post the firearms creation version but it's harder to post because it's in the form of an excel table. Tables translate badly to forums.

I may export it as HTML and post it to a temporary website though... hmmm...

As a warning my firearm creation rules in some ways are more balanced but they still require GM observation. Also, like the ones in the book, they are designed for mass market pistols. It makes reasonably priced pistols in line with what's in the book. It's not for custom or one off pistols, which would cost several times more.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (BitBasher)
No, even then it's still pretty much universally stupid.

Explain. And preferably, in a non-condescending way. I'm not saying that I support the use of double clips and double barrels, but historically, multiple barreled guns were and are fairly common for one reason or another. The old-style revolvers actually were multiple-barreled muskets that rotated on a pivot.

It is feasible. Someone could make it. It's about as easy as duct-taping two guns together (something out of a cheap action flick, but it works).
BitBasher
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
So a grenade launcher and a shotgun shouldn't use two different magazines? wink.gif

I'm mailing you a package. Don't shake it and put your head to it as close as possible while opening. wink.gif

Grenade launchers are a special case in that they're really two weapons stuck together. nyahnyah.gif
Crimson Jack
I feel like a toad for not understanding why the two clip thing is stupid. Can someone enlighten me please?
mfb
too complex to be reliable. combat is chaotic; ideally, your weapon should be as simple as possible while still remaining effective. two clips and two barrels means two actions, two firing pins, two loading mechanisms--two times as many things to break or screw up. if you really, really need two different types of ammo, it's better to just carry two seperate guns.

the two clip thing is stupid because you can only have one bullet in your firing chamber at one time, ready to be fired. if you want to switch clips, where does that bullet go? back into the clip is a great way to really screw up your gun, since you're basically doubling the complexity of one of the most-likely to break down functions your weapon can perform (moving ammo from the clip to the chamber). ejecting the round is an option, but that means you lose ammo every time you change clips.
TeOdio
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Feb 3 2005, 04:27 PM)
QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 3 2005, 06:02 PM)
yeah, the double clip thing's nuts.

Unless you have double barrels.

No, even then it's still pretty much universally stupid.

I think I saw something like this on that Firearms show they run on the History channel every once in while. If I remember correctly (and I could be NOT remembering correctly), the idea bombed and the few guns that were made are now museum pieces. I have a better idea than 2 clips ... 2 Guns! Seriously though, I've never met a runner that really really was concerned with using real ammo or not. I've trained my players against wonton destruction and disregard for human life, but sometimes you gotta let the lead fly!
Player 1: Should I stun bolt him or mana bolt him.
Player 2: That was real lead they plugged me with, and that's what I'll be returning.
Player 1: Mana Bolt it is!
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
if you really, really need two different types of ammo, it's better to just carry two seperate guns.

Or get the adept powers Nimble Fingers and Multi Tasking in wich case you can switch ammo in the middle of an action (may require Smartgun link).
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (mfb)
the two clip thing is stupid because you can only have one bullet in your firing chamber at one time, ready to be fired. if you want to switch clips, where does that bullet go?

That makes sense. Thanks.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (kevyn668)
QUOTE
QUOTE
(kevyn668)

Echo what mfb said.

His gun isn't that distictive. Most people--even in 2064--are not walking encylopedias of gun lore. To the average ganger/sec guard/maf torpedo/street sam, your man's toy is just an odd looking gun, if that. No one will be able to tell how uber it is by seeing it in action. Its still just a SMG.

No, but enough of them either are or have access to electronic gun encyclopedias to figure it out and spread the word. And once the rumor starts, the only way to be rid of the results is to be rid of the gun and start a rumor it was stolen. Besides, you pull any sort of run with a gun that matches nothing anyone is familiar with and they will remember you over the guy who uses the very common AKs, as it is something that stands out even today.


No. They're not and no they don't. You shove a gun in Joe Normal's face odds are good (unless he's a DSer) he ain't gonna run home and try look up what firearm he was just acousted with. Nor is he going to ring up his local shadowrunner buddy and tell him about it.

Isn't the gun usually the only thing the victim does remember?

Although I agree with mfb and kevyn: Those are pretty excessive burdens for something that GM fiat can simply disallow (especially when something especially excessive has a higher Avail than starting PCs can purchase). Distinctive Flaw might be one tradeoff, but I'd still give them the break on the BP from taking the Flaw. But, GM fiat is just that.

And here I thought I was a bastard GM and Player.
kevyn668
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Oh, come on, kevyn, take off the kid gloves.

Who? Moi? I'm always kind and fair in my posts. wink.gif

Arethusa
QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Feb 3 2005, 08:34 PM)
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Oh, come on, kevyn, take off the kid gloves.

Who? Moi? I'm always kind and fair in my posts. wink.gif

And I can't stand it!
kevyn668
QUOTE (Arethusa)
QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Feb 3 2005, 08:34 PM)
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Oh, come on, kevyn, take off the kid gloves.

Who? Moi? I'm always kind and fair in my posts. wink.gif

And I can't stand it!

Its a gift. smile.gif
Arethusa
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Isn't the gun usually the only thing the victim does remember?

A kid I know was driving through a nearby area and got tailgated. This truck tailgates him for three miles and doesn't let up. This kid, being a pretty good driver, decides to fuck with him, and slams on his brakes. The truck stops inches short of his rear bumper. Man gets out of truck with a pistol and points it at him. Kid drives the fuck away.

What's the moral of the story?

"What kind of gun was it?"
"Fuck, man, I didn't stick around long enough to find out."

Unless we're talking about specops types in close terrain, it's pretty much idiotic to think any near reasonable weapon is going to be that distinctive. Unless there's footage to review later, for most people, a gun is a gun and it's shooting at me so I'm going to stay behind the goddamn car, if you don't mind.
Fortune
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Hey, like I said It wasn't gonna happen yesterday.

It's cool. I just couldn't resist, Damn my low Willpower. wink.gif
BitBasher
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 4 2005, 11:33 AM)
Hey, like I said It wasn't gonna happen yesterday.

It's cool. I just couldn't resist, Damn my low Willpower. wink.gif

Firearms and Melee... Both are up now =)

Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Arethusa)
What's the moral of the story?

"What kind of gun was it?"
"Fuck, man, I didn't stick around long enough to find out."

You miss the point.

When ambushed people remember the gun, not the person holding it.

This is distinctive because he wasn't ambushed. He was being followed for three friggin' miles before the gun came out.

Arethusa
Yeah, by some guy who was, up to that point, just some jerk in a truck. It wasn't Charlie in the trees, but it's still far from any sort of warning.
Kanada Ten
And can either of you point to studies? I did a search and came up with nothing.
Arethusa
I don't think I ever mentioned studies or any scientific research at any point. I'm arguing from personal experience, related experiences, and pertinent stuff I've read (accounts of combat, etc).
Raygun
QUOTE (mfb)
too complex to be reliable. combat is chaotic; ideally, your weapon should be as simple as possible while still remaining effective. two clips and two barrells means two actions, two firing pins, two loading mechanisms--two times as many things to break or screw up. if you really, really need two different types of ammo, it's better to just carry two seperate guns.

A dual-feed magazine is certainly not the most practical thing in the world, but it doesn't have to be quite that stupid. It would probably be even less practical on a rifle rather than a pistol. Anyway, here's my idea.

Think of it like two single-stack magazines welded together. Then think of a rotating breech face or non-locking bolt that can be operated via a flush "feed lever" mounted either on top of the slide or on one side behind the ejection port, with a single extractor and plunger ejector passing through it (like the M16 bolt without the locking lugs). 180 opposite the switch (or 90 depending on where the feed lever is) there's a "tab" on the bottom of the breech face that pushes each cartridge into the chamber. When the switch is pushed to the right, the gun feeds from the left magazine. Pushed to the left, it feeds from the right magazine. Alternately, this could be done with a crossbolt. This can be performed whether the action is open or locked.

Now, when one magazine runs dry, its follower presses up on a lever on its side that automatically switches the breech face to feed from the next magazine (doesn't matter what order). When both magazines are dry, both followers press up on these levers, locking the slide open. The dry magazines are then ejected and a fresh one inserted. While retracting the slide, the user presses the feed lever to whichever side he chooses, then releases the slide to move forward and chamber a round.

If there's already a round chambered and you want to switch ammunition, you can either switch the feed lever and manually eject the round in the chamber or you can switch the feed lever and fire the round in the chamber and follow it up with a second shot from the chosen magazine.

Obviously it is more mechanically complicated, so there's that. You can only use one cartridge, but two different loads for it (say one mag frangible and one mag AP). It would also take some training to use effectively in close quarters. And it's arguably more complicated (though perhaps not so time-consuming) than just switching magazines when the need arises. But it doesn't have to be quite as silly as having two of everything.
mfb
the ideal solution would be to set it up so that the round isn't loaded into the chamber from the clip until you squeeze the trigger. but using current tolerances, that'd create too long a delay between squeezing the trigger and actually firing the bullet; if you speed the action up, with a setup that complex, i'd think you'd greatly increase your chances of a jam.

and, yeah, i know you don't need two barrels and two actions and two whatnot to use two clips--but that was what had been suggested by another poster.
Raygun
QUOTE (mfb)
the ideal solution would be to set it up so that the round isn't loaded into the chamber from the clip until you squeeze the trigger. but using current tolerances, that'd create too long a delay between squeezing the trigger and actually firing the bullet; if you speed the action up, with a setup that complex, i'd think you'd greatly increase your chances of a jam.

Yeah, it could pretty easily be made to fire from an open bolt. Most machine guns and several submachine guns are fired that way (Thompson M1, M3, Uzi, etc...). The amount of time it takes for the bolt to slam forward is pretty much inconsequential (you wouldn't have to "speed up" anything); it's not real great for accuracy but it's good enough for government work. Firing from an open bolt can also simplify the firing system (no need for a hammer/striker or moving firing pin; the trigger just releases the bolt or slide, the round chambers, the firing pin smacks the primer). But I don't think there would be any need to do that anyway. Of course, there's really no need for a dual-feed magazine, so...

QUOTE
and, yeah, i know you don't need two barrels and two actions and two whatnot to use two clips--but that was what had been suggested by another poster.

Maybe the guy who made the suggestion didn't. smile.gif
Aes
QUOTE
Yeah, it could pretty easily be made to fire from an open bolt. Most machine guns and several submachine guns are fired that way (Thompson M1, M3, Uzi, etc...). The amount of time it takes for the bolt to slam forward is pretty much inconsequential (you wouldn't have to "speed up" anything); it's not real great for accuracy but it's good enough for government work. Firing from an open bolt can also simplify the firing system (no need for a hammer/striker or moving firing pin; the trigger just releases the bolt or slide, the round chambers, the firing pin smacks the primer). But I don't think there would be any need to do that anyway. Of course, there's really no need for a dual-feed magazine, so...


Eh, I think of it as a way to conserve those oh-so-precious few APDS rounds and capsules with nasty drek in them. It's in the canon rules (however stupid they might sound), so I'll just assume that someone came up with a workable idea after havign sixty years and gazillions of corp dollars invested in firearms. nyahnyah.gif
Fortune
Raygun: Are there any real world examples of guns that come with dual-feed magazines?
Austere Emancipator
The Neostead shotgun, which is also on Raygun's site. I sure can't think of an example of dual-feed box magazines from real firearms, better wait for Raygun on that one.
Raygun
None that are automatic that I'm aware of.

The Neostead shotgun has a dual-feed of two six-round tubular magazines, but it's a pump action. There's also a bolt-action, double-barrel repeating rifle that has a dual-feed box magazine, made by Szecsei & Fuchs in Austria (at $35-75k a pop). That's all that come to mind at the moment.

Edit: Oops. Aus beat me to it.
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Feb 3 2005, 06:45 PM)
What's the moral of the story?

"What kind of gun was it?"
"Fuck, man, I didn't stick around long enough to find out."

You miss the point.

When ambushed people remember the gun, not the person holding it.

This is distinctive because he wasn't ambushed. He was being followed for three friggin' miles before the gun came out.

It seems like whether one remembers the gun or the gunman is dependant on the individual and the situation.
The Grifter
Indeed. You're gonna remember whether some guy had a .22, or was pointing a Desert Eagle at you.
Foreigner
Reminds me of an episode of HOGAN'S HEROES.

COL. Klink had been kidnappped at gunpoint--he was mistaken for GEN. Burkhalter by a group of Underground operatives attempting to free their leader --who had been sentenced to death in absentia--from the Gestapo. Their intent was to force the Gestapo to release him in exchange for Burkhalter--if their leader were executed, Burkhalter would be the next to die.

One of the kidnappers actually stuck a pistol in SGT. Schultz's face while the other members of the band were taking care of Klink.

This led to the following exchange between Schultz and GEN. Burkhalter (or MAJ. Hochstetter of the Gestapo, I forget which):

"What did the kidnapper look like, Sergeant?"

Schultz: "A German Luger."

--Foreigner
Weredigo
My favorite serious Bad @$$ gun. Remington, double barrel, stock action, barrel sawed, stock whittled down to pistol grip, and just enough counterweight running from the bottom of the fist to the elbow to allow you to twirl reload it.
vapor
sometimes a gun can be so distictive that it's all they remember... like my sammy and his neon pink predator 3... he also had a neon pink switchblade-- his theory was that it's bad enough to get shot or stabbed, but it's adding salt to the wound if you get shot or stabbed by a fraggin PINK weapon.
Raygun
QUOTE (Weredigo)
My favorite serious Bad @$$ gun.  Remington, double barrel, stock action, barrel sawed, stock whittled down to pistol grip, and just enough counterweight running from the bottom of the fist to the elbow to allow you to twirl reload it.

What?
Weredigo
QUOTE
QUOTE (Weredigo)
My favorite serious Bad @$$ gun.  Remington, double barrel, stock action, barrel sawed, stock whittled down to pistol grip, and just enough counterweight running from the bottom of the fist to the elbow to allow you to twirl reload it.


What?

Remington Shotgun, Take a hacksaw to it and take off Half length of the barrel, Then take the Stock over to the jig saw and leaving the attach/detach part of the stock alone saw off the top portion, carving knives and sandpaper and some finish for the rest of it. Not pump action though Stock Action, you pull the bar down to eject the spent shell, and pull it up to load the next round into the chamber.
Arethusa
What the hell is stock action? Do you mean lever action?

There are no Remington lever action shotguns. Lever action shotguns haven't even really been made for almost a century.
Raygun
QUOTE (Weredigo)
Remington Shotgun, Take a hacksaw to it and take off Half length of the barrel, Then take the Stock over to the jig saw and leaving the attach/detach part of the stock alone saw off the top portion, carving knives and sandpaper and some finish for the rest of it. Not pump action though Stock Action, you pull the bar down to eject the spent shell, and pull it up to load the next round into the chamber.

I understand the sawing off and such, what I'm not sure about is "stock action" and "twirl reload". About the closest thing I can deduce from what you're saying would pretty much be Arnold's bit in T2. That was a Winchester 1887 shotgun. It's a lever action repeater and it only has one barrel. I believe they stopped making them in 1901. If you're thinking about a break action ("double barrel" would kind of suggest that), Remington does make over/unders, but I'm at a loss as to how one could accomplish anything described as a "twirl reload" with a break action, as it's not a repeater.

The only other lever action shotgun I can think of is the Winchester 9410, which they started making about three years ago.
Weredigo
Ah, my bad then. Although with skills in Machining custom parts and B/R firearms it could still be done. but yeah Lever action is the technical term. Stock action is the "po man's" term.
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