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Xavier
I was looking through Cannon Companion and looking at making/customizing a gun. I was curious how many actually customize their guns.

What I am looking for is a SMG that i can run at FA mode with the maximum amoung of recoil comp. Is it possible to build a SMG that has 10 points of RC so that you could run one that is base damage of 6 or 7 M at 16 or 17 Deadly. and still have the TN be 2's if your smartlinked?


Zeel De Mort
Yes, just.
Slamm-O
can someone clarify this, i dont remember the RAW, but i know that in my group we run with recoil only going away at the end of the combat turn, with -2 recoil every phase and an additional -2 for each simple action taken to stableize the gun.

am i correct in remembering the canon rules as full recoil resetting every combat phase? thus allowing for fully compensated guns!?
Method
Yes, by cannon recoil does NOT carry over from one phase to the next.
James McMurray
Yep, recoil goes away at the end of the combat phase. SR3 p. 110.
Mr.Sinister
Light/Medium/Heavy Machine Guns can be built with RC: 2 as part of the gun itself (CC pg 77), then add the following extras:
Gas Vent IV - RC: 4
Foregrip - RC: 1
Stock - RC: 1
Personalized Grip - RC: 1

Combined, these generate RC: 9. I'm not sure if this is allowed or not, but you could also add Underbarrel Weight that has RC: 1 to the Foregrip, giving an additional point of RC totaling RC: 10. Now, some GMs may not allow this because both the weight and foregrip take the same "mount point" on the gun. However, in my opinon, someone should be able to combine the two into a "weighted foregrip" - since a foregrip is basically a pistol-type grip at the front of the weapon, there's no reason it can't be weighted.

Not sure if RC: 10 is needed, what is the recoil for FA fire anyway?
mfb
new guns, most made with the CC guide:
Pistols
Rifles
Shotguns
SMGs

the most RC you can get in an SMG is: -2 for internal RC; -4 for gas vent; -1 for foregrip; -1 for custom grips, for a total of -8. i don't think there's anything else you can do to the gun itself.
James McMurray
Per the rules weights and a foregrip can't be combined.

You do need recoil comp 10, because full auto recoil is equal to the number of rounds fired. However, you can get that last point by having high strength.

And don't forget to add a gyro-harness so you can fire 17 rounds from your super machinegun per round (or 13 rounds and run).
Arethusa
Sinister, you forgot shock pads. That's the canon way to hit 10.
mfb
shock pads only work on rifles, ARs, and shotguns. same with bullpup. i'm pretty sure SMGs can be built with internal RC, though i could be wrong.
Gem the Troll
Remember that at STR 4 (might be higher, no books handy) you get a point of recoil comp...you're able to hold the gun steady through brute force.
mfb
Str 6, as of CC.
James McMurray
You need a strength of 6 to get a point of recoil 12 will get you 2, and 19+ will get you 3.

edit: too slow, but more informative. smile.gif
Mr.Sinister
I thought the number of rounds in FA is determined by the player and must be 6 or more rounds thus adding +6/+2 Damage Code to the normal damage code of the weapon and 6 recoil.

I don't have my SR3 book handy (at work)... does anyone have the exact info on SS/BF/FA and their respective effects?
Zeel De Mort
Okay okay, RC 10 for an SMG:

Base FCU: 1.5

Firing Mode: FA only, FCU: 0
Heavy Barrel, FCU: -0.25, RC +1
Improved FCU 4, FCU: +1
Increased Power 1, FCU: -0.25
Recoil Compensation 2, FCU: -1, RC +2
Gas Vent IV, FCU -1, RC +4
Personalised Grip, FCU: 0, RC +1
Remove Trigger, FCU: +0.5 when removed
Smartgun System (External) (Top), FCU -0.25
Stocks, FCU 0, RC +1
Underbarrel Weight, FCU: -0.25, RC +1

All FCU used up, RC 10, 7M FA only, Smartlink. Ta da!

James McMurray
And here we see the silliness available in the build your own gun rules.

If this gun is available, it would eventually cover almost the entire market, at least for close combat guns. There would be no need to buy pistols except holdout pistols, and no need to buy any other SMG. I'm not sure, but I assume you can get roughly the same results from an assault rifle or L/M/SMG.
BitBasher
Heavy Barrel?
Mr.Sinister
Heavy Barrel is found in CC:Pg 75-76 and says "A heavier barrel can help reduce the shock of firing the firearm. Treat weapons equipped with a heavy barrel as if they had 1 point of integral recoil compensation."
Zeel De Mort
Yep, it's pretty silly. You'll note I didn't include the price though. If you bother to work that out it'll be, well, very expensive. Which is one good reason you might not see it in mass production. The other reasons relate to it being physically impossible etc.

It's certainly about as easy with an AR, and I'd assume not overly difficult for an LMG/MMG/HMG.


Heavy Barrel, yep, Design Option p75 CC (right down at the bottom). Gives +1 RC (over the page).
Mr.Sinister
I may just have to get a heavy barrel for my FN-HAR. Hmmm...
Zeel De Mort
Well, it's a design option so, strictly speaking, you would have to redsign the weapon again to be exactly the same, but with a heavy barrel. That is, if you want to stick completely rigidly to the customisation rules, which not all that many people do for one reason or another. smile.gif
gamemaster
let me help clear this up...xaviers a player in my group who just got torn in two by an undercover troll swat team member ,his teammates finally downed him with a version of the weapon he wants to build...that his old character built.its an awsome weapon and yes its powerfull but the cost would keep it very low key on the street ....plus i will let him know now.....1- it will have a very distinctive sound to it.2-people will want it.3- cant create it at character creation so will have to save up his money and make it after the game starts.which will keep him from owning 10 of them at game start.sorry xavier but im god.....
mfb
sounds fair to me. i generally don't allow players to have custom gear at chargen.
BitBasher
Cause apparently no gun in SR has an aftermarket Bull Barrel option nyahnyah.gif
Sabosect
I allow it, but only if they take the Distinctive Style, Hunted, and Extra Enemy flaws. And the points those were normally grant are traded for a single custom item but do count against the limit of total edges and flaws they can have.
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (Xavier)
I was curious how many actually customize their guns.

I make a ton of 'em. I just keep all of the creations in a file on my computer for use whenever my group ever runs into a gunsmith. I also keep a stockpile of random custom names and decorations to quickly add to any weapon for the flavor of the whole deal.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Sabosect)
I allow it, but only if they take the Distinctive Style, Hunted, and Extra Enemy flaws. And the points those were normally grant are traded for a single custom item but do count against the limit of total edges and flaws they can have.

Right... Um, for a single custom gun? This never once seemed even the slightest bit insane to you?
Crimson Jack
... only if there were 8 more points of flaws would this get close to insane. As it is now, it's about right. LOL wink.gif
Sabosect
QUOTE (Arethusa)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Feb 1 2005, 07:13 PM)
I allow it, but only if they take the Distinctive Style, Hunted, and Extra Enemy flaws. And the points those were normally grant are traded for a single custom item but do count against the limit of total edges and flaws they can have.

Right... Um, for a single custom gun? This never once seemed even the slightest bit insane to you?

No. The Distinctive Style is because they are using something no one else is, giving them something that makes them stand out very much just by having. The Hunted flaw is because people will want it and will try to get it. The Extra Enemy is someone from their past, whether megacorp or some street urchin, who holds a grudge and feels stealing that weapon and using it to implicate the player character in a series of heinous crimes would be revenge enough.

If you're going to build your own gun from scratch, don't be surprised when the uniqueness of it screws you over. That's always been the biggest disadvantage of the custom rules.

Note, however, that this is different from taking a stock gun, such as an AK-97, and customizing it. Likely, no matter the customization pattern there's at least two thousand of it around.
mfb
wow. vindictive GM much? also, i really don't see anything in the rules that says a character who starts with a custom gun is a horrible monster who has three seconds to live. i mean, that's one possible explanation for one character with a custom gun, but custom guns aren't so insanely badass that they require such.
kevyn668
Echo what mfb said.

His gun isn't that distictive. Most people--even in 2064--are not walking encylopedias of gun lore. To the average ganger/sec guard/maf torpedo/street sam, your man's toy is just an odd looking gun, if that. No one will be able to tell how uber it is by seeing it in action. Its still just a SMG.
Sabosect
QUOTE (mfb)
wow. vindictive GM much? also, i really don't see anything in the rules that says a character who starts with a custom gun is a horrible monster who has three seconds to live. i mean, that's one possible explanation for one character with a custom gun, but custom guns aren't so insanely badass that they require such.

You've never seen the custom guns the group I game with come up with.

The only reason I do it like that is simple: You can have your custom gun, and the requirements are the same of everyone. If you really want a gun that does a certain thing, you can alter the guns that exist to do it or do without. It is a way of preserving game balance at the start of the game.

QUOTE (kevyn668)
Echo what mfb said.

His gun isn't that distictive. Most people--even in 2064--are not walking encylopedias of gun lore. To the average ganger/sec guard/maf torpedo/street sam, your man's toy is just an odd looking gun, if that. No one will be able to tell how uber it is by seeing it in action. Its still just a SMG.


No, but enough of them either are or have access to electronic gun encyclopedias to figure it out and spread the word. And once the rumor starts, the only way to be rid of the results is to be rid of the gun and start a rumor it was stolen. Besides, you pull any sort of run with a gun that matches nothing anyone is familiar with and they will remember you over the guy who uses the very common AKs, as it is something that stands out even today.
mfb
i've seen the custom guns i've come up with. my favorite was the 11S HVHMG with 14 RC. of course, i pegged the Avail as way higher than 8--which is how i'd handle just about any other custom gun i don't want someone starting with.

i dunno. if your group needs those tight reigns, cool.
Sabosect
The only reason I have those instead of an outright ban at character creation is because I feel those are realistic side-effects of having a unique weapon, car, whatever. The reasons sometimes may vary, but I find the results will be the same.
kevyn668
QUOTE
QUOTE
(kevyn668)

Echo what mfb said.

His gun isn't that distictive. Most people--even in 2064--are not walking encylopedias of gun lore. To the average ganger/sec guard/maf torpedo/street sam, your man's toy is just an odd looking gun, if that. No one will be able to tell how uber it is by seeing it in action. Its still just a SMG.

No, but enough of them either are or have access to electronic gun encyclopedias to figure it out and spread the word. And once the rumor starts, the only way to be rid of the results is to be rid of the gun and start a rumor it was stolen. Besides, you pull any sort of run with a gun that matches nothing anyone is familiar with and they will remember you over the guy who uses the very common AKs, as it is something that stands out even today.


No. They're not and no they don't. You shove a gun in Joe Normal's face odds are good (unless he's a DSer) he ain't gonna run home and try look up what firearm he was just acousted with. Nor is he going to ring up his local shadowrunner buddy and tell him about it.

No. No one will remember that a runner had an odd gun.

You could maybe make the case that embossing and the such might stick out but other than that, its just GM fait.

You'd probably be surprised at how similar guns look when all you can see is the business end of them.

If you want to give your players such a hard time just tell them they can't have custom gear at char gen. Simple.
mfb
yeah. i'd only use the Distinctive Style flaw if the weapon looked really distinctive. for instance, if someone in 2004 committed crimes using an XM-8? yeah, Distinctive Style all the way. if they committed crimes using Heckler and Kock's Discarded Prototype #563A? not so much.
Sabosect
QUOTE (kevyn668)
No. They're not and no they don't. You shove a gun in Joe Normal's face odds are good (unless he's a DSer) he ain't gonna run home and try look up what firearm he was just acousted with. Nor is he going to ring up his local shadowrunner buddy and tell him about it.

No. No one will remember that a runner had an odd gun.

You could maybe make the case that embossing and the such might stick out but other than that, its just GM fait.

You'd probably be surprised at how similar guns look when all you can see is the business end of them.

If you want to give your players such a hard time just tell them they can't have custom gear at char gen. Simple.

You are, of course, assuming the guy with the gun is only going after Joe Normal and not going up against anyone who might know enough about guns to be able to tell if one is unusual. And that the cops or corp security won't use the security cameras so common just about everywhere to get a look at the gun, which would be of use to them in trying to track down the runners (of course, so is the face and everything else).
kevyn668
QUOTE (Sabosect)
QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Feb 1 2005, 11:47 PM)
No. They're not and no they don't. You shove a gun in Joe Normal's face odds are good (unless he's a DSer) he ain't gonna run home and try look up what firearm he was just acousted with. Nor is he going to ring up his local shadowrunner buddy and tell him about it.

No. No one will remember that a runner had an odd gun.

You could maybe make the case that embossing and the such might stick out but other than that, its just GM fait.

You'd probably be surprised at how similar guns look when all you can see is the business end of them.

If you want to give your players such a hard time just tell them they can't have custom gear at char gen. Simple.

You are, of course, assuming the guy with the gun is only going after Joe Normal and not going up against anyone who might know enough about guns to be able to tell if one is unusual. And that the cops or corp security won't use the security cameras so common just about everywhere to get a look at the gun, which would be of use to them in trying to track down the runners (of course, so is the face and everything else).

Look pal, if you want to play "Is so/Is not" we can. wink.gif

My point is, more often than not, runners tend to encounter opposition that is not, um, "equal." That is to say, "NPC goons."

Most of those end up dead anyway--especially if your boy is using the End-All-Be-All-Uber-9S-10RC-Con: 6-HVSMG with APDS, right?

Its a gun. No one is going to bat an eyelash at one he/she can't ID.

Even if they do encounter "crack troops," when was the last time you, as GM, had one of those "crack troops" use a simple action to observe in detail a runner's unique weapon? If the answer is never, then they don't know drek about it other than it "killed Timmy."

And, AS I SAID BEFORE, if you want to play it that way, go for it. It your game. Have fun. That what this is supposed to be about.

Sabosect
QUOTE (kevyn668)
QUOTE (Sabosect)
QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Feb 1 2005, 11:47 PM)
No. They're not and no they don't. You shove a gun in Joe Normal's face odds are good (unless he's a DSer) he ain't gonna run home and try look up what firearm he was just acousted with. Nor is he going to ring up his local shadowrunner buddy and tell him about it.

No. No one will remember that a runner had an odd gun.

You could maybe make the case that embossing and the such might stick out but other than that, its just GM fait.

You'd probably be surprised at how similar guns look when all you can see is the business end of them.

If you want to give your players such a hard time just tell them they can't have custom gear at char gen. Simple.

You are, of course, assuming the guy with the gun is only going after Joe Normal and not going up against anyone who might know enough about guns to be able to tell if one is unusual. And that the cops or corp security won't use the security cameras so common just about everywhere to get a look at the gun, which would be of use to them in trying to track down the runners (of course, so is the face and everything else).

Look pal, if you want to play "Is so/Is not" we can. wink.gif

My point is, more often than not, runners tend to encounter opposition that is not, um, "equal." That is to say, "NPC goons."

Most of those end up dead anyway--especially if your boy is using the End-All-Be-All-Uber-9S-10RC-Con: 6-HVSMG with APDS, right?

Its a gun. No one is going to bat an eyelash at one he/she can't ID.

Even if they do encounter "crack troops," when was the last time you, as GM, had one of those "crack troops" use a simple action to observe in detail a runner's unique weapon? If the answer is never, then they don't know drek about it other than it "killed Timmy."

And, AS I SAID BEFORE, if you want to play it that way, go for it. It your game. Have fun. That what this is supposed to be about.

If we're going to play, which of us starts the slap-fight and which of us runs screaming for Mom? wink.gif

I think what we have here is a simple case of difference of view on what people notice. I know of too many people who have described someone and included what type of gun he was carrying, in a few cases identifying the gun itself when they have a bit of knowledge about it. However, there are also quite a few who barely notice what type it is. And in all cases, I'm talking about your average person on the street, not some military-trained supersoldier who used to beat up elephants with his toes for fun.
ShadowGhost
Only way I let a PC take a custom gun at chargen is if they have the B/R skill, a facility, and all the supplies to make it.

I make them roll the skills and if it goes bust.... that's 5,000 down the drain (or whatever it would have cost).

Characters without the skill - no dice. No pun intended. It keeps the uber weapons down, and when they finally do get them (one guy spent almost 20,000 for highly custom AR), they are very careful with them.

And while 20,000 sounds outrageous.... he bought it from a gunsmith... so it had street index on top of the usually calculated price, as the more custom designed a gun is, the easier it is to trace back to the gunsmith... it has his craftsmanship signature... so to speak. Not to mention, he wanted it so bad he was willing to throw in a few extra grand to lower his etiquette target number.
Sandoval Smith
If you're letting them take a custom gun like that from Chargen, then yeah, I guess it needs some sort of other drawback, but the reasoning behind the flaws seems a little bit silly (I can see distinctive style working).

The way I handle custom guns (aside from not allowing characters to start with them) is that they're expensive, and an original design takes a long time to make (probably a couple of weeks unless they know a gunsmith who will make this his number one priority), since it's an unique custom job, with unique custom parts(they also will probably need to hunt down the right person to make it for them too). The frame, barrel, bolt, and other really important bits will all have to be made from scratch. So, the runner has his whiz gun. Corps and such aren't going to be scrambling over it, because they could pretty easily make the same thing. They don't because the amount of effort and money it would take to tool up an assembly line outweigh projected profits.

Even allowing for subsequent copies to be quicker to make, if the runner loses the original it's probably going to take time to get another one. If he has a copy of the plans and goes to a different gun smith, then it's going to be the same base time as the original.
Crimson Jack
It seems fair to just allow the player to start the game with the necessary skills and equipment (sans custom gun), then just make the thing as soon as the game starts. They wont get their little fun toy right away, but they will as the game progresses. What's wrong with a little patience? wink.gif
hahnsoo
A stock gun will kill someone just as effectively as a custom gun. I don't see a custom gun as a major problem, as there are a million and one ways to kill PCs. So you can fire 10 bullets with null recoil (even without custom guns, you can do this with a cyberarm gyromount). 4 security guards can fire 8 bursts, maybe miss with half of them, and bury you with a hail of lead. Custom guns are an edge (not the character gen kind), and shadowrunners need as many edges as they can get.
U_Fester
QUOTE (Mr.Sinister)
Foregrip - RC: 1
Stock - RC: 1

How can you use both the Foregrip and Stock at the same time? dopn't you ahve to hold one or the aother if you are using your second hand on personal grip?
U_Fester
QUOTE (James McMurray)
You need a strength of 6 to get a point of recoil 12 will get you 2, and 19+ will get you 3.

Where was this located?
tisoz
QUOTE (U_Fester)
QUOTE (Mr.Sinister @ Feb 1 2005, 04:46 PM)
Foregrip - RC: 1
Stock - RC: 1

How can you use both the Foregrip and Stock at the same time? dopn't you ahve to hold one or the aother if you are using your second hand on personal grip?

Not the stock that runs under the barrel, the stock you put against your shoulder.
tisoz
QUOTE (U_Fester)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Feb 1 2005, 05:28 PM)
You need a strength of 6 to get a point of recoil 12 will get you 2, and 19+ will get you 3.

Where was this located?

CC.103, it is an advanced combat rule.
U_Fester
Thanks for clarification for both. wink.gif
Daishi
QUOTE (James McMurray)
If this gun is available, it would eventually cover almost the entire market, at least for close combat guns.

No way! Everybody would be buying my Ares Tactical Carbine (assault rifle platform) that doles out 9M damage, has an integral grenade launcher, suppressor, 5 points of integral recoil and a conceal of 7!

Brrroken! biggrin.gif
Smiley
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
A stock gun will kill someone just as effectively as a custom gun. I don't see a custom gun as a major problem, as there are a million and one ways to kill PCs. So you can fire 10 bullets with null recoil (even without custom guns, you can do this with a cyberarm gyromount). 4 security guards can fire 8 bursts, maybe miss with half of them, and bury you with a hail of lead. Custom guns are an edge (not the character gen kind), and shadowrunners need as many edges as they can get.

I totally agree. Hell, in our game it's just understood and assumed that everyone's going to have nifty custom weapons. It would be odd if someone DIDN'T. A 10M SA/BF pistol isn't that much of an advantage, really. Nor do I think it would make the player any easier to track. With the damage increase, it's basically a 9mm firing .45 anyway. If the authorities DO get ahold of the player and his weapon, the player is definitely hosed, though. Besides, if you can get something like that cobbled together on the street, imagine what SWAT teams and corp security might have. dead.gif
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