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Spider
First of all, beware of the spoilers that this topic may contain for players and GM who intent to play the Renraku shutdown.

You where warned.

My question is directed at GM who have run game inside the Arcology, using the stuff from the Renraku Arcology Shutdown. Then again i'm really open to suggestion from anyones around (since i've notice many creative GM's and player's consult this forum). It's some simples and straightforwards questions.

1-How have you managed to get your player across the drones produce by Deus?(what type of encounters, a chase, seek and destroyed... what gears the team was packing on?)

2-What's the best way to dispatch/destroyed/evade the terrible army of drones of the AI using the normal SR3 rules?(I mean the medusa are extremely tough customer aren't they? In some example used in the shutdown book they seem to say they took out medusas using pistols and smg, witch seem improbable to me). It seem to me one pack medusas could destroyed an entire team with almost no scratch(look at the armor rating!)...

3-If you trapped your players down the Arcology(your sooo bad), i want to know
-how long they got stuck inside(days,weeks,months,a year?!)
- what "missions" did they accomplish?

I guess you'll extrapolate and give me even more than i need so i'll just wait for your answers for now.

Thanks to all of you. I really appreciate this forum and the quality of your post.

(By the way, i already know that the drones of Deus are supposed to be quite lethal, heavily armored and quite smart. I'm ok with that, i just wanna know how to take them out, survive them, escaped them without tactically nuke the entire downtown area...)
fistandantilus4.0
I'm sending in a team on a run for the Big-D reward and a few other missions on the way. One thing I was including for them were rockets based off of the "jabberwock" missels from Rigger 2. Basically jacks up drones. They're only able to carry 4 though. Other than that, AV ammo. They'll be well equipped since they're specifically going for an 8m nuyen.gif reward (a lot of which is going to the ork underground for providing them a way out. A lot is also going to the fixer funding them).

I ran only one other arc run, a single orc street sam w/ a vindicator. he thought it would be fun. He fought one medusa, and got the hell out of there with a serious wound.
fistandantilus4.0
By the way, how were you planning on inserting your team?
Charon
I haven't played through the shutdown 'era'. Plan to in the near future.

Renraku Shutdown is 2e, right? So you should lower the armor ratings somewhat. Steel Lynx Drones are currently Body 2 and Armor 9 in SR3 buy they used to be Body 4 and Armor 12 in SR2 when introduced in FoF, for example.
Spider
Since i'm pretty vicious, my team will meet a jonhson inside the Arc and then the Shutdown will occur. They will have to fight their way out, unite with trapped lone star cop, some unbanded red Samourai, resistance members etc. I've find a way to make the decker snatch from the team and they will have to rescue him from a medical room. So it's gonna be pretty harsh.

(i've got a plan to help them if they miserably fail... but still i'm afraid of what could happen to them)

And they uptaded the drone and the banded one in the brainscan supplement p.137-144 so you don't have to worrie about the 2nd edition rules.

(still the medusa in third edition rule got 3 of body, 4(cool.gif in armor(4 + 2 points of ablasive armor that add 4 to armor rating! It's also state that an attack that strikes a medusa with a power three times the modified armor rating will remove one point of ablasive armor. Good luck mr.Sammy!)
Spider
i mean 8 in armor total

not cool.gif

lol

sorry
fistandantilus4.0
Since the source books are put into a format of being on shadowland, I was going to give my players access to the shutdown book (w/o the game info in the back), that way they could build up some good dread before going for it.

Other than that, I prepared a pretty big list of things they were going to take in with them. I was planning on having them land on one of the helipads w/ night gliders, covered w/ concealment by spirits. Still haven't decided just how feasible (or dangerous) that is w/ patrolling army elementals.

Springing on them like that is pretty harsh though. Personally, I don't htink I'd go to a meet in the arcology. I generally try to avoid any meet where I can't even bring a pistol. How are they supposed to get armed? The red samurai are pretty tough kickers, I have a hard time seeing runners grabbing guns from them (unless of course other samurai already cacked them).

How long are you planning on keeping them in there? Probably will end up needing some pretty detailed maps. I think kevyyn668was working on something like that (or someone was). do a search!
Club
There are three articles from RA:S that got cut from the final version. FASA used to have them on their site, but when FASA went down, so did the articles.

One was on the orc underground, the second the media coverage, and the third was a shadowland 'WTF is happening forum'. I know #1 is still out there somewhere, I'm not sure about the other two
Crimsondude 2.0
IIRC, DE wrote them. And if he didn't he should still have them.
fistandantilus4.0
That would be nice. Any chance of getting a copy (or a site address to "get" said copy)?
Crimsondude 2.0
Ask him.

I'd like to get a copy of the Boston article from the same e-zine that they were published in at the time. It was more interesting that the one in Target: UCAS.
Club
OK, just glanced through RA:S and brainscan. The ablative armor on the Medusa is optional, and not by cannon on all drones. That would make the things @#$%^ scary still, but reasonable for mid-power PC's to take down.

And I don't think the jabberwock missles would do much to most of Dues's combat critters. The things are robots, with enough smarts to complete their last orders. After the orders are complete they might get confused, but by then you're meat. YMMV, depending on how smart the GM thinks they should be though.

Best bet: Troll Musclehead with a polearm. (Or a 15 lb. sledgehammer [mace] depending on if your GM is willing to bend the stun damage rules.)
mfb
you should try using the drones' nigh-invulnerability as a multipurpose plot hook. eg: the ork underground knows where there's a cache of AV ammo, but a) it's well-guarded by blues and drones, and b) the ork underground has some people they want freed before they'll part with the info. make acquiring the means necessary for taking the drones down a run in and of itself.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Charon)
Renraku Shutdown is 2e, right?

Shutdown is a 3e book. It did come out before all the 3e splatbooks had been released, so I think it actually contained the initial 3e rules updates on certain topics, updates that may have been later revised in the appropriate splatbook when it was released.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Club)


And I don't think the jabberwock missles would do much to most of Dues's combat critters. The things are robots, with enough smarts to complete their last orders. After the orders are complete they might get confused, but by then you're meat. YMMV, depending on how smart the GM thinks they should be though.

My problem is I loaned my R:2 out to a friend, and well, in a different state now. Any idea where i can find the specifics on those dandy little toys. I remember them being pretty effective against drones, and I'm only planning on letting them get them for this one run, but having nice cold hard rules on hand would be nice.

Wonder if they'll bother posting rigger 2 as a PDF?

What I'm trying to remember is if the jabberwock is just a real nasty ECM, or if it actually does something more along the lines of an EMP. I know the blues get their BTL fix from a transmitted signal (signal says "on", they get their warm fuzzies), but I think I remember the drones blowing up if they lose the signal, to avoid their being captured. I do know that is specifically states that Dues wigs out if ANY kind of ECM is used in the arcology, because he relies on it so heavily, so these are kind of a trump card trick. Is any of this ringing true, or am I pulling it out of my hoop?
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
If anyone finds the two other articles, please post to this board...I love RA:S, and if there's more, well...that's exciting.
Kagetenshi
In the post-Shutdown Arcology, one of two things must flow like water: AV ammo, or character blood.

~J
Nalanthi
Does the group have a troll? I have found that groups with trolls have a much higher survival rates. I run an adventure at cons (where I am not afraid to kill pc's out of hand) where Deus abducts the runners and smuggles them into the arcology. When they wake up they are equipped as they usually are for heave duty runs, told that there goal is to survive for as long as possible and then dumped into a random floor on the arcology. They don't encounter medusas until the very end and they either tend to get through them extremely well adapting the techniques the party develeped to deal with dervishes earlier or all die. Remember that the drones must "lock on" before they can fire using a complex action which gives an alert team a pass in which to act before the medusas go. The gorgon on the other hand, the single gorgon I was using I had to take out because its tendency to strike from ambush was annihlating parties. I did lose the abblative armor from the medusas though, its on the absurd side. If you are going to use it make sure the runners have AV (I tend to keep mine away from it).
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
In the post-Shutdown Arcology, one of two things must flow like water: AV ammo, or character blood.

~J

That so sums up the leathality of it all.

Or needing power 18 weapons to hurt Medusea without the AV ammo.

The Gorgons i found weren't to bad as the group was quite perceptive and it doesn't have the ablative armour thus can get hurt alot easier then the Medusea
toturi
Called Shots to Bypass Armour. You could kill a Leopard 3 that way.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
There are three articles from RA:S that got cut from the final version. FASA used to have them on their site, but when FASA went down, so did the articles.


Dave and Brian wrote 'em, actually. I really don't know if there's any lingering legalities involved with me posting this stuff, but it was cut and it's old, so I figure there's no trouble in it.

If Dumpshock can and wants to host these files, feel free.

Renraku Arcology Shutdown: Open Forum
Renraku Arcology Shutdown: Spin Doctoring
Renraku Arcology Shutdown: The Ork Underground
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
QUOTE
There are three articles from RA:S that got cut from the final version. FASA used to have them on their site, but when FASA went down, so did the articles.


Dave and Brian wrote 'em, actually. I really don't know if there's any lingering legalities involved with me posting this stuff, but it was cut and it's old, so I figure there's no trouble in it.

If Dumpshock can and wants to host these files, feel free.

Renraku Arcology Shutdown: Open Forum
Renraku Arcology Shutdown: Spin Doctoring
Renraku Arcology Shutdown: The Ork Underground

I actually took printouts of those, and my copy of RA:S down to the local copy shop, had them slice the spine off the book, and rebind it with those chapters where they would have fallen had they not been cut.
Crimsondude 2.0
I think my favorite description someone wrote about the Arc was the smell coming from the housing units where people starved to death because the hallways were mined. Well, that and the human bloodbag bombs.
hahnsoo
I was particularly interested in this quote:
QUOTE
WHAT!?! This man just violated every rule of doctor-patient privilege known to man! One of the fundamental rules of psychoanalysis is to make the patient know that she's safe to say anything without fear of reprisal! FastJack, send me this quack's name if you have it; I'll see that he gets disbarred.
:: Posted By Doc U-Dub ::

Violating doctor-patient privilege, while occasionally unethical, does not necessarily get the doctor's license revoked. Due to the Tarasoff decision, there are many legal and regulatory protections for a doctor to break confidentiality if it necessary for the health of the individual. In the particular case listed, I believe that the doctor in question was ethically and legally correct in contacting a security chief, if the doctor believed the patient was a danger to herself or to others.

There is a quite a long list of exceptions to doctor-patient privilege (specific to the field of psychiatry/psychology), including, but not limited to:
* Competence proceedings
* Commission of a crime - If the services of a psychotherapist are sought or obtained to enable a patient to commit or plan to commit a crime or tort or to escape detection or apprehension after the commission of a crime or tort, there is no psychotherapist-patient privilege.
* Breach of duty - In cases involving a breach of duty by the psychologist arising out of their relationship with the patient, there is no psychotherapist-patient privilege as to any communications between the psychologist and the patient.
* Deceased patient - In a communication from a deceased patient concerning their intent in executing a will or other dispositive instrument, there is no psychotherapist-patient privilege. There is no privilege as to a communication between parties "all of whom claim through a deceased patient regardless of whether the claims are by testate or intestate succession or by inter vivos transaction."
* Public reports. Where a psychologist is required by law to report information to a public employee or for inclusion in the public record, there is no psychotherapist-patient privilege as to that information.
* Dangerous patient. Where a psychotherapist has reasonable cause to believe that the patient is dangerous to himself or to the person or property of another, and that disclosure is necessary in order to prevent the threatened danger, there is no psychotherapist-patient privilege.
* Credible harm - Where a patient expresses a credible threat of injury to an identifiable victim, the therapist not only has the right but the obligation to warn the intended victim.
* Court-appointed psychotherapist - Where a psychotherapist is appointed by a judge or by the Board of Prison Terms to examine a patient, there is no applicable psychotherapist-patient privilege.
* Elder abuse/child abuse
* Coroner's inquiries
Crimsondude 2.0
.... being subject only to the administrative whims of an extraterritorial corp...
DocMortand
Heh.

I'm fast approaching the Shutdown, and had the runners encounter a prototype version of the Medusa a couple game months back.. Unfortunately the rigger in the group had the Steel Lynx and the Medusa (even at full power!) bounced repeatedly off the Lynx.

Of course that won't work in the arcology...the ECM jamming will cause drones to go bonkers and/or get coopted by Deus using EW. And don't tell me the Lynx appears post-shutdown...I wouldn't be surprised if it were true, and it's too late now. (I'm not the type of GM to take away a toy now that it's in play because I missed it...)

Also, the group has limited AV ammo now...and inside the arc it will be scarce. (As it should be!) Kind of reminds me of Resident Evil games...occasionaly, in odd places, you'll find Desert Eagle ammo (like in the sewers? who stores Eagle ammo in the sewers?)

And yes, I already have a hook to get my group in the Arc...and no I ain't posting it because I know for a fact at least one if not two of my players read DS. nyahnyah.gif
Raife
I took an odd way of running the arcology. I did a flashback. Each player got a pre-made uber character, part of a Renraku Strike Team trapped inside when the arcology went down.

Of course they ended up getting captured at the end of the night... about a 6 hours game session.

Then the regular characters stumbled upon the groups tactical recordings (giving them the data) and discovered that the members of the strike team are now on the outside of the arcology..

The next few weeks of gaming were spent tracking down the characters they played inside and figured out the whole Deus connection. Then they had to find another AI to help them get inside and save some people they knew.

OK, so all that leads up to being inside... I gave the players some great gear. Ares Redlines will hurt drones bad... and with the strike team flashback it becomes realistic.

All in all it was really fun. Ok so that's my 2 cents on arcology runs.
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
QUOTE
There are three articles from RA:S that got cut from the final version. FASA used to have them on their site, but when FASA went down, so did the articles.


Dave and Brian wrote 'em, actually. I really don't know if there's any lingering legalities involved with me posting this stuff, but it was cut and it's old, so I figure there's no trouble in it.

If Dumpshock can and wants to host these files, feel free.

Renraku Arcology Shutdown: Open Forum
Renraku Arcology Shutdown: Spin Doctoring
Renraku Arcology Shutdown: The Ork Underground

Demonseed Elite wins.
DocMortand
Yeah DE - those cuttings really give me more flavor that helps make the actual shutdown more real - thanks for keeping them, and for reposting them!

Especially the Open Forum and the Ork Underground pieces in particular...gives me some suggestions on conditions right at shutdown and how to get in/out more effectively.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
.... being subject only to the administrative whims of an extraterritorial corp...

My point being that if Doc U-Dub really knew anything about the actual definitions of doctor-patient privilege, he might not have made that outburst. But then again, I doubt many lay-people do, so I'll leave it at that.
Charon
QUOTE (DocMortand @ Feb 20 2005, 07:12 PM)
And don't tell me the Lynx appears post-shutdown...I wouldn't be surprised if it were true, and it's too late now. (I'm not the type of GM to take away a toy now that it's in play because I missed it...)

Well, SL drones appear in Rigger 3

I wouldn't call lowering body and armor of the SL drones for SR3 rules "Taking away toys".

Back in SR2, you didn't divide the power of an attack by 2 and now you do. Obviously you must lower some armor rating on Pre-SR3 rules.

Under new rules (and new stats), the SL is even more invulnerable to firearms than it used to but more vulnerable to AV weapons.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Feb 20 2005, 06:12 PM)
.... being subject only to the administrative whims of an extraterritorial corp...

My point being that if Doc U-Dub really knew anything about the actual definitions of doctor-patient privilege, he might not have made that outburst. But then again, I doubt many lay-people do, so I'll leave it at that.

Indeed. But the author probably didn't, or they wouldn't have used the word "disbar" either.
Kanada Ten
Or, in some hidious twist of irony, patient's rights increase and lawyers are given control of the medical community. I can actually picture one of those two things happening, without effort even.
Fortune
Or Doc U-Dub just wasn't what he appeared to be claiming to be.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Fortune)
Or Doc U-Dub just wasn't what he appeared to be claiming to be.

A poster on the Net not what they claim to be?? My illusions shattered! wink.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Feb 20 2005, 09:09 PM)
Or, in some hidious twist of irony, patient's rights increase and lawyers are given control of the medical community.  I can actually picture one of those two things happening, without effort even.

Not in SR. If anything, it'd be less likely that most privileges exist anymore. Even lawyer-client privilege would probably look more like how it was imposed between Lynne Stewart and the blind sheikh which helped lead to Ms. Stewart's recent conviction.

QUOTE (Fortune)
Or Doc U-Dub just wasn't what he appeared to be claiming to be.

Perhaps. I assumed he was just a regular doctor from Seattle SB, so my guess is that he may have just been overreaching what he actually knew.
Fortune
True. He is probably a general practitioner, and not up to snuff on the ins-and-outs of psychiatric law.

Or he's trying to cover up the fact that he personally does this very thing himself. Methinks he doest protest too much. biggrin.gif
DocMortand
QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (DocMortand @ Feb 20 2005, 07:12 PM)
And don't tell me the Lynx appears post-shutdown...I wouldn't be surprised if it were true, and it's too late now. (I'm not the type of GM to take away a toy now that it's in play because I missed it...)

Well, SL drones appear in Rigger 3

I wouldn't call lowering body and armor of the SL drones for SR3 rules "Taking away toys".

Back in SR2, you didn't divide the power of an attack by 2 and now you do. Obviously you must lower some armor rating on Pre-SR3 rules.

Under new rules (and new stats), the SL is even more invulnerable to firearms than it used to but more vulnerable to AV weapons.

Huh? I was using the Steel Lynx stats in Rigger 3 Revised, and the stats for the Medusa in the RA:S book and the Medusa wasn't even scratching the Lynx. So I *can't* reduce the Lynx stats because I got them from the correct book and I don't reduce things that are already in play. I just grandfather rules which say "okay, they can't be gotten at char gen from now on." And try my hardest to kill the bloody things in a way which makes game mechanical sense (i.e. not the "Cow from space")

Besides, as has been pointed out, RA:S was 3rd ed, NOT 2nd. And as soon as I can get my hands on Brainscan I plan on updating any stats that need to be updated...but I can't because it's out of print.

*growl* *steps off of soap box*

Fortune
QUOTE
And as soon as I can get my hands on Brainscan I plan on updating any stats that need to be updated...but I can't because it's out of print.


As I said in another thread, Brainscan should be out in pdf format very soon.
DocMortand
Yeah, yeah, I know... Hey, remember I'm a musician...We tend to froth at the mouth at the least provocation.

Besides...it ain't available now...and who knows when in the pipeline it'll be done. *whines piteously*

Remember, don't feed the Medusas.
Crusher Bob
Try this:

QUOTE

There are instances in which confidentiality and privilege do not apply:

  1. Known or suspected child abuse.  Reporting is mandatory.
  2. Substantial risk of imminent serious harm to another person by the patient.  Reporting is not mandatory, but should be considered in light of the Tarasoff decision.
  3. Substantial risk of imminent self-harm by the patient.  Reporting is not mandatory, but should be considered to protect the patient, and the potential liability of the psychologist for failing to take appropriate action to protect the patient.
  4. A court order (which is different from a subpoena) mandating the disclosure of otherwise privileged information.

The psychologist may appeal to the court to not force disclosure of confidential information.  Should the court deny the appeal, failure to comply with the court order could result in the psychologist being found in contempt of court.  If disclosure would result in grave concerns about the welfare of the patient the psychologist is advised to seek legal advice in deciding whether or not to comply.


Tarasoff decision

The main problem I have with the Acr Shutdown is that is takes are 'choice' away from the players. Unless the PCs are uber death ninjas or the GM goes easy on them the following rules seem to apply:

1 You can't win
2 You can't break even
3 You can't quit the game

You open a door, there are 1,000 Medusas guarding a chest, what do you do?
I have the same problem with the Harlequinn series of adventures especdially Harlequinn's Back. The PCs are now on the plot train, as the campaign is written, they can't get off the plot train, even if they just want to retire and open a popsicle stand.
Demonseed Elite
It's really only as restrictive as the individual gamemasters make it. Adventure campaigns like Brainscan are part-gamemaster's crutch and part-storyline. That's it, really. They are supposed to be tinkered and toyed with and adapted, but the material is there to help a gamemaster have a basic foundation as opposed to the gamemaster working from scratch (which of course, they can certainly do if they want, in which case they don't really need to buy Brainscan).

I don't think the runners need to be super-uber ninjas nor does the gamemaster necessarily have to go easy on them. They will be challenged though and they will face adversity, and that's the whole point. Do the runners "win?" What the heck is winning in the perversely-grey world of shadowrunning? But if the events in the storyline trigger other stories in the individual lives of the runners and their team, which it should, then the game is enriched, and the players win.
BitBasher
My problem with brainscan has only been that as written, without the GM fudging dice rolls the player's really can't survive it because there's no reasonable way for them to hurt the drones.
Demonseed Elite
Modify the drones then! biggrin.gif

It may surprise people, but I've been alternately told that the adversaries in Brainscan were both too hard and too easy. Yes, too easy.

It really depends on your group. Frankly, a group that I gamemaster for would get their asses kicked, and so I'd have to tailor my own work downwards for them. But I've seen groups on the other end of the spectrum. It's really damn hard to be a writer in the position of trying to gauge what the right difficulty level is, since you're dealing with an audience that will run the gamut. So we mainly toss something out and expect that people will take it apart.
DocMortand
Having Brainscan would be nice, but in my group my players tend to be paladins - and the Arc post-shutdown is paladin heaven. There are tons of things to discover, avoid, destroy, steal and most definately rescue - so if you provide reasons for the runners to be there and remain there past the "capture/put thru labyrinth" basics the Arc gives plenty of run opportunity.

Besides, there are plenty of ways to escape - Ork Underground, the parking garages, and skiing down the outside. *grin*
Mr.Cato
I'm just preparing for a session tomorrow... sending the players into the Arc.

These Medusae.. hmm... first thought: they need to BEAT power 16 to damge it??!!

then checking the rules for Ablative armor I read: "Ablative armor is not hardened and does not stage down the damage code of attacks"

So we have
Body 4
Armor 4
A.Armor +4 (not hardened)

what is the take on the ... "normal armor" on top of hardened armor. How much power needed ?

Maybe.... need to beat power 4 (after halving power of attack)... and then counting 8 points of armor for power deduction?
and ofcourse lower the dam.level by one.
Capt. Dave
If they know they're going in there, they should pick up some Great Dragon ATGMs. They're only avail. 8, and they do 20D AV.
Alternatively, a PAC, maybe with AV ammo if you get lucky. Sure, these are heavier weapons than you might take on a regular shadowrun, but this is the Arc...
SirKalamon
I have a question concerning the medusa, I don't have the R3 handy at the moment, anyways, it has 4 points of ablative armor and one needs an attack 3 times the number to reduce it however it backed by 4 additional points of hardened armor. My question is this, would an attack of 12 that would do nothing to it still end up atleast reducing the ablative armor by one? It would be chipping away the armor till its possible to really wound the damn thing. If that isn't correct, what do the rest of you think about doing that way? It would atleast change the focus of the PC's survival based solely on AV ammo.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Capt. Dave)
If they know they're going in there, they should pick up some Great Dragon ATGMs. They're only avail. 8, and they do 20D AV.

And require the entire rest of the team to dive for cover. Backblast is a bitch in hallways.

~J
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

And require the entire rest of the team to dive for cover. Backblast is a bitch in hallways.

~J

Back blast is 12M, -1 per meter. The blast radius of a AGTM isn't much, as far as explosives/grenades go. I'd rather go for cover from an AGTM being fired at a Medusa than let the Medusa leap around killing my team mates.
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