The SR rules for flechette rounds can do a reasonable impression of frangible (etc) bullets, in that such round are great for killing unarmored folks, but will greatly underpreform against any sort of armor.
Full Version: Pistols
One thing I should have said about bullets tumbling inside targets: if you could achieve this reliably for rifle-caliber FMJs without compromising the performance of the round in any other way, it would certainly be a good thing to have. Non-deforming rifle bullets will tend to penetrate deep enough into humans to do their thing even if they did tumble, and they'll certainly create a larger wound cavity when travelling sideways than when travelling point-first.
However, it's hardly ever the case that you can get a bullet that's better at one thing and yet isn't at all worse in anything else, and in any case tumbling can hardly ever be completely relied upon and when it happens it will only increase the wound cavity over a short distance. This is no miracle technology, it's just one of those quirks of terminal ballistics.
Depleted Uranium ammunition: Not much point. In small arms, the advantages of using DU over, say, tungsten carbide are minor compared to the disadvantages (toxic dust in air after firing, though you get that to an extent even with tungsten, and the incendiary effects are not always a good thing). This, along with production costs I would imagine, is why DU small arms ammunition does not exist IRL. If you still want to include such in your games, go right ahead.
However, it's hardly ever the case that you can get a bullet that's better at one thing and yet isn't at all worse in anything else, and in any case tumbling can hardly ever be completely relied upon and when it happens it will only increase the wound cavity over a short distance. This is no miracle technology, it's just one of those quirks of terminal ballistics.
Depleted Uranium ammunition: Not much point. In small arms, the advantages of using DU over, say, tungsten carbide are minor compared to the disadvantages (toxic dust in air after firing, though you get that to an extent even with tungsten, and the incendiary effects are not always a good thing). This, along with production costs I would imagine, is why DU small arms ammunition does not exist IRL. If you still want to include such in your games, go right ahead.
| QUOTE (Weredigo) |
| Sabot ( lil teeny slug with flechette packed around it, no gunpowder, instead Rocket Propellent ) |
Excuse me? Yes, saboted ammunition (like SLAP or APDS) has a small projectile, but everything after that is nonsense. The projectile may be a sub-caliber bullet or a flechette ("dart") -- flechette refers either to a single dart-like projectile or ammunition with a bundle of such projectiles such as fired from shotguns or large-caliber guns. Surrounding the projectile and connecting to the bore is the sabot itself, a plastic sleeve which strips off as the projectile exits at the muzzle.
APDS ammunition uses the same kinds of propellants as any other small arms cartridges. "Rocket propellant" is not used in any small arms, that sounds like a gyrojet weapon more than anything else.
| QUOTE (torzzzzz) |
| Don't think you can get them in the game as such but if you had ballistics it would be a simple matter of weighting the bullet at one end so it would 'tumble' when it left the barrel of the gun. I think it would come under the fabled 'house rule' situation though! |
You could for example house rule it so that such ammunition would have a +1 TN to hit per 5 meters of range to the target. You do not want a bullet to tumble as soon as it exits the barrel; that would mean there's something horribly, horribly wrong. If this happens, the bullet is going to stray several degrees off target in a random direction.
The point of tumbling bullets is that they tumble inside the target, they are still perfectly stable in flight. It is the more dense medium which triggers the tumbling.
In general, you can also load more/finer powder behind a bullet, to increase its speed. Such loads are normally called +P (for increase pressure). However, weapons are designed to fire with certain chamber pressures, increased chamber pressure can lead to problems cycling the weapons (mostly in gas operated weapons) or, in the worst cast, the weapon blowing up in your face.
In general, such loads are limited to pistols for a variety of reasons.
In general, such loads are limited to pistols for a variety of reasons.
| QUOTE |
| You could for example house rule it so that such ammunition would have a +1 TN to hit per 5 meters of range to the target. You do not want a bullet to tumble as soon as it exits the barrel; that would mean there's something horribly, horribly wrong. If this happens, the bullet is going to stray several degrees off target in a random direction. The point of tumbling bullets is that they tumble inside the target, they are still perfectly stable in flight. It is the more dense medium which triggers the tumbling. |
good point Doh! its the work its driveing me mad!!!
torz x
| QUOTE (torzzzzz) |
| Ok so i have posted a few threads but this one i feel strongly about, I know i am not the most experience player in the world and i am slowly but surely coming to terms with the millions of rules for this game. but is it me or is the pistol damage a bit week. Just the other day i was on a run and was horrified to pull out my pistol to see that it only did light damage. ( think it was the Savelette guardian). So I pulled out the other one (Aries Predator) to find out it did 9M I vainly tryed to justify more damage you know the drill..... 'oh oh come on I have a level 2 smartlink and they are at close range...... the wind is blowing in their direction, the moon is full...I got a 24 ???' So i had to resort to pulling out my Remminton 990, which, may i add did the trick. ( fully personalized with embossed down the barrel.......'I'M PISSED AND i've GOT A GUN') What i hear you shouting is the problem, ?????? well short of walking around with a small arsenal, which is cool but can be abit tricky.......... how can i get more power out of the pistols, as they are good if you cant walk around with a shot gun etc. At the moment I could hit em harder and do more damage than the gun would! torz x |
Well, basically, small caliber rounds have crappy stopping power.
If you read this article, the military has just re-learned that 9mm sucks horribly for a handgun: http://www.tradoc.army.mil/pao/TNSarchives...ry05/013505.htm
On the other hand, the movies have given us a tradition of large caliber handguns being massive hand cannons of death; see Dirty Harry for the magic of insta-drop .44 magnum.
So that, IMO, is why we have "realistic" light pistols with abysmal stopping power and "unrealistc" super handcannons represented by the M damage heavy pistols.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| If you read this article, the military has just re-learned that 9mm sucks horribly for a handgun: |
Quite crucially, they've re-learned that 9mm FMJ ammunition sucks horribly for a handgun. When you have to make do with non-deforming ammunition, you'll want to have as large a bullet to start with as possible. When you add the possibility of other bullet designs, 9x19mm suddenly sucks a whole lot less.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
Quite crucially, they've re-learned that 9mm FMJ ammunition sucks horribly for a handgun. When you have to make do with non-deforming ammunition, you'll want to have as large a bullet to start with as possible. When you add the possibility of other bullet designs, 9x19mm suddenly sucks a whole lot less. |
Well, granted, but if we're talking the out-of-the-box 6L damage code, that would be the ball ammo.
From that perspective, yes, Light Pistols are kinda sorta reasonable and Heavy Pistols are totally fucked up.
what would a 9mm parabellum be classed as? Heavy?
torz x
torz x
| QUOTE (Weredigo) |
| 1: Start packing Rounds such as Depleted Uranium (coated in Lead, and then Teflon) Explosive Rounds, and Sabot ( lil teeny slug with flechette packed around it, no gunpowder, instead Rocket Propellent ) |
please stop saying OMG TEFLON = TEH ARMOR PERICING!!!!1 I hate that. And it shows up way too often, even in movies (like Ronin) that ought to know better.
IIRC...
A teflon coating on a steel bullet exists to protect the barrel from the wear of firing hard metal projectiles, rather than soft lead. It has nothing to do with armor penetration. Steel bullets without a teflon jacket will penetrate just as well; they'll just shred the rifling in your barrel and you'll have to replace it sooner.
| QUOTE (torzzzzz @ Mar 2 2005, 12:44 PM) |
| what would a 9mm parabellum be classed as? Heavy? torz x |
Well, there's no easy answer to that. Raygun treats it as heavy, but a lot of people would consider it light.
The truth of the matter is that the damage codes in SR aren't really that "realistic" in the first place so there isn't a 1-to-1 correspondance with real ammunition types and weapons.
Reg: But, but, the TV NEWS said that teflons are t3h d34dly COP KILLER! Clearly, they automatically make you die....!
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE (Weredigo) 1: Start packing Rounds such as Depleted Uranium (coated in Lead, and then Teflon) Explosive Rounds, and Sabot ( lil teeny slug with flechette packed around it, no gunpowder, instead Rocket Propellent ) please stop saying OMG TEFLON = TEH ARMOR PERICING!!!!1 I hate that. And it shows up way too often, even in movies (like Ronin) that ought to know better. |
For this mistake I apologize.
| QUOTE (torzzzzz @ Mar 2 2005, 02:43 AM) | ||||
Don't think you can get them in the game as such but if you had ballistics it would be a simple matter of weighting the bullet at one end so it would 'tumble' when it left the barrel of the gun. I think it would come under the fabled 'house rule' situation though! I plan to make some as i have balistics as a skill, dont get me onto the things you can do with shotgun carts and a few well placed chemicals!! |
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing as Austere.
What you did, I think, is miss my rather oblique point that such a thing doesn't exist, and doesn't make any sense. That's my fault. I forget that I maintain a sense of humor about things 99% of you don't, and don't find humor in 99% of you're alls' attempts. I know about the wound effects of a .223/5.56mm NATO round tumbling through a human body, if it doesn't just blow right through. And it doesn't make them any better or worse than anything else. it's just an effect of what sometimes happens when some bullets don't penetrate a body cleanly.
| QUOTE |
| I forget that I maintain a sense of humor about things 99% of you don't, and don't find humor in 99% of you're alls' attempts. |
Issallright Crimsondude, we still love you.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) | ||||||
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing as Austere. What you did, I think, is miss my rather oblique point that such a thing doesn't exist, and doesn't make any sense. That's my fault. I forget that I maintain a sense of humor about things 99% of you don't, and don't find humor in 99% of you're alls' attempts. I know about the wound effects of a .223/5.56mm NATO round tumbling through a human body, if it doesn't just blow right through. And it doesn't make them any better or worse than anything else. it's just an effect of what sometimes happens when some bullets don't penetrate a body cleanly. |
Erm..... Sorry but its been a long day and i think your point had just sailed over my head?
torz x
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| Well, there's no easy answer to that. Raygun treats it as heavy, but a lot of people would consider it light. |
Actually, Raygun classifies it as Medium.
But, like you said, there's no easy answer. I would like to say that it shouldn't be classified Heavy -- there are hardly any calibers less powerful than the 9x19mm used in combat handguns, but plenty which are far more powerful. Still, calling it Light is also quite problematic, since then the Heavies would have to be .44 Magnums and the like. Basically, don't try comparing RL guns to SR guns, unless you have masochistic tendencies and/or you would like to seriously house rule firearms in SR.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| I know about the wound effects of a .223/5.56mm NATO round tumbling through a human body, if it doesn't just blow right through. And it doesn't make them any better or worse than anything else. |
I'd say the fact that the bullet in question also tends to fragment when it tumbles at close ranges does make it a bit better than some other assault rifle FMJ rounds. When the fragmentation does occur, it increases the size of the wound cavity immensely. Of course, this effect cannot be relied upon and only happens at short ranges with long-barreled weapons, and as far as I know it might also slightly worsen the ability of the round to penetrate targets, so it's not a huge advantage. And if you wished, you could reliably get much better terminal ballistics simply by using deforming ammunition.
| QUOTE (Weredigo) | ||
Issallright Crimsondude, we still love you. |
Oh, good. Now I can sleep peacefully at night instead of staying up all hours thinking that the Ham will eat me if Space Jesus doesn't arrive in time.
| QUOTE (torzzzzz) |
| Erm..... Sorry but its been a long day and i think your point had just sailed over my head? |
How ironic.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
I'd say the fact that the bullet in question also tends to fragment when it tumbles at close ranges does make it a bit better than some other assault rifle FMJ rounds. When the fragmentation does occur, it increases the size of the wound cavity immensely. Of course, this effect cannot be relied upon and only happens at short ranges with long-barreled weapons, and as far as I know it might also slightly worsen the ability of the round to penetrate targets, so it's not a huge advantage. And if you wished, you could reliably get much better terminal ballistics simply by using deforming ammunition. |
Right, and so overall I see no reason to screw around with game mechanics that are reasonably dealt with using the SR combat system.
But I don't really mind. It's a game. Fretting about this or the MA rules too long just seems a waste to me, and like some people have nothing better to do than write up a new Melee system that ends up receiving only lukewarm reception from people who do know what they're talking about (not me), and people who don't (me). It doesn't mean I don't like them. I just question his... er, their sanity sometimes.
Crimsondude 2.0 on a final point I agree with what you are saying, I think that bringing up the issue of tumbler bullets was a bad idea. I have had it battered into me that it would not work....... sooo I stand corrected! I will admit defeat and all that ..... WEEP...... but if people like me didn't bring up issues for you to moan about i'm sure your life would be slightly less interesting?? 
mmmmm ironic that your point went over my head ..... yes it surprised me to!
We/I have to try and come up with some new ideas for the evolution of the game .... even if they are stupid!
All in the name of fun and all that ....
No hard feelings!
torz x
mmmmm ironic that your point went over my head ..... yes it surprised me to!
We/I have to try and come up with some new ideas for the evolution of the game .... even if they are stupid!
All in the name of fun and all that ....
No hard feelings!
torz x
I would assume that was supposed to be sarcasm, but like I told AIM-54: Never assume anything on DS.
Assume what you like......... as I said, I did admit I was wrong!
Aso Like I said No Hard Feelings.
torz
Aso Like I said No Hard Feelings.
torz
Easy, there, Crimson. You don't need to rip off her head over this.
| QUOTE |
| We/I have to try and come up with some new ideas for the evolution of the game .... even if they are stupid! |
| QUOTE |
| 7. If it's stupid but it works, it's not stupid. |
I don't care what anyone else says about you torz... you rock.
| QUOTE (Weredigo) | ||
|
Please don't make me rant about this again.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||||
Please don't make me rant about this again. ~J |
I'll second that. Internet Face Stabbing Device, why do you elude me?
I think its better for torzzz's standing if weredigo didn't support him, but thats just because weredigo is crazy.
Might also be better for Torzzz's standing for her not to be given sex-change operations by members of the board 
~J
~J
Him/her/it/person/place/thing/name/whatever I'll assume he's male until I hear otherwise from him. Works out better in the longrun from my previous experience.
You must not know very many girls.
Well, there was that one time when an incorrect correction of pronoun had a bunch of people thinking that BitBasher was female for about half a thread…
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Well, there was that one time when an incorrect correction of pronoun had a bunch of people thinking that BitBasher was female for about half a thread… ~J |
I thought we agreed never to speak of that again
BitBasher isn't a female??
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Might also be better for Torzzz's standing for her not to be given sex-change operations by members of the board ~J |
A female, on the internet!?!?! IMPOSSIBLE!!!!
It's a fact.
yes, the internet: where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| It's a fact. |
You know what they say about facts: they get in the way of logic.
~J
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Easy, there, Crimson. You don't need to rip off her head over this. |
That is a million levels beneath me ripping anyone's head off.
If I ever do it, you'll remember because it will lead to an IP banning.
I am a SHE!........ I think let me check....... yup!
Sorry about the ranting yesterday but I have this problem with quitting while I am ahead........ saying that I don't think i ever was!
Anyway, I will live to fight another day ..... can't be right all the time!
TORZ X
Sorry about the ranting yesterday but I have this problem with quitting while I am ahead........ saying that I don't think i ever was!
Anyway, I will live to fight another day ..... can't be right all the time!
TORZ X
You can try switching to rayguns pistols, which don't require the rules changes that the rifles do. They are much better about balancing damage, capacity, and concealability.
| QUOTE (torzzzzz) |
| I am a SHE!........ I think let me check....... yup! Sorry about the ranting yesterday but I have this problem with quitting while I am ahead........ saying that I don't think i ever was! Anyway, I will live to fight another day ..... can't be right all the time! TORZ X |
The writing style gives it away... at least to me (but then, I know lots of girls
).Amazing what you can tell about people based on the language they use on the Internet. Even if they are in Wales.
Still, what's the world coming to when girls are interested in RPGs /and/ use the Internet?
DAM what gave it away??
Could talk in Welsh if ya want
torz x
Could talk in Welsh if ya want
torz x
Wait, so bad spelling/grammar = female? Since when? Anyway torz, this topic has strayed terribly off topic, but I'll acknowledge your female status.
Back to the original topic............... shall i just get rid of the light pistols then?
Kind of like having them as backup, but would like something with a bit more punch! ( But that can still be hiden) *wince*
torz x
Kind of like having them as backup, but would like something with a bit more punch! ( But that can still be hiden) *wince*
torz x
I tend to go with capsule rounds for light pistols... but I've been considering going with a light pistol using character, simply because they're so damn easy to hide.
As far as capsule goes, cyanide/narcoject, depending if you want to knock them out, or kill them, they're both 7D (physical and stun respectively) and are only reduced by half impact armor.
As far as capsule goes, cyanide/narcoject, depending if you want to knock them out, or kill them, they're both 7D (physical and stun respectively) and are only reduced by half impact armor.
What Tranatula said.
Most of my characters keep a hold-out or light pistol in a concealable quickdraw holster at hand. Even if standard damage isn't worth writing home about, a DSMO/Neuro-Stun X mixture in the capsules ups the damage to 10S stun. If you're really evil on top of that, you get your favourite gunsmith to install burst fire and check out the toxin overdose rules in M&M. That leaves you with a gun that does 12D stun per burst, use half impact armor.
Most of my characters keep a hold-out or light pistol in a concealable quickdraw holster at hand. Even if standard damage isn't worth writing home about, a DSMO/Neuro-Stun X mixture in the capsules ups the damage to 10S stun. If you're really evil on top of that, you get your favourite gunsmith to install burst fire and check out the toxin overdose rules in M&M. That leaves you with a gun that does 12D stun per burst, use half impact armor.
I'd advise dropping them for the Tiffani Needler, myself.
~J
~J
It is actually annoying when the practicalities of the rules interfere with the concept and style of a character.
Personally I don't find light pistols to be that bad, but since I've not actually played Shadowrun in about 15years I probably can't comment on how they pan out in a "real" situation...
If your GM allows it I'd recommend the excellent Running Gear by Plastic Warriors (if it's back on DS) which includes a whole bunch of additional guns that add variety without being overpowered - IIRC there are some pretty good holdouts and light pistols.
oh, and Torz - you're quite a bit older than I guessed you were
Personally I don't find light pistols to be that bad, but since I've not actually played Shadowrun in about 15years I probably can't comment on how they pan out in a "real" situation...
If your GM allows it I'd recommend the excellent Running Gear by Plastic Warriors (if it's back on DS) which includes a whole bunch of additional guns that add variety without being overpowered - IIRC there are some pretty good holdouts and light pistols.
oh, and Torz - you're quite a bit older than I guessed you were
| QUOTE |
| I am a SHE!........ I think let me check....... yup! |
As has been mentioned, make light pistols do 6M. I also make light pistols with conceal of 5 or less do 7M.
Further, use the gunsmith rules in CC and modify your pistol to be able to select full auto mode, this is a slight stretch of canon IIRC, but it gives good tactical options.
Basically, have the option to turn all light pistols into machine pistols, of which there is a dearth.
Finally, since your sig suggests you have the spelling bee
there are 2 p's in swapped.
| QUOTE (Link) |
| Finally, since your sig suggests you have the spelling bee there are 2 p's in swapped. |
And an 'r' in 'grammar'.
| QUOTE (Aes) |
| What Tranatula said. Most of my characters keep a hold-out or light pistol in a concealable quickdraw holster at hand. Even if standard damage isn't worth writing home about, a DSMO/Neuro-Stun X mixture in the capsules ups the damage to 10S stun. If you're really evil on top of that, you get your favourite gunsmith to install burst fire and check out the toxin overdose rules in M&M. That leaves you with a gun that does 12D stun per burst, use half impact armor. |
Realize though, the speed of neurostun X is a combat turn. Which means if whatever you're fighting gets 3 or 4 passes this turn, they could drop you before the next one comes around and they go down. Narcoject however is instant, but thats why it has a base 7D damage code... this is still worth bursting to get it up to 8 however, as 8 is considerably harder to hit than 7.
But a three-round burst of neuro-stun X will cost me 93 nuyen as opposed ot a three-round burst of narcojet which ends up at 453 nuyen. Depends on the cash flow in your campaign, I guess. My characters standard tactic is to tag all the hostiles once with a burst, then dive for cover and let the chems do their thing.
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