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torzzzzz

Ok so i have posted a few threads but this one i feel strongly about,

I know i am not the most experience player in the world and i am slowly but surely coming to terms with the millions of rules for this game. but is it me or is the pistol damage a bit week.


Just the other day i was on a run and was horrified to pull out my pistol to see that it only did light damage. ( think it was the Savelette guardian).

So I pulled out the other one (Aries Predator) to find out it did 9M

I vainly tryed to justify more damage you know the drill..... 'oh oh come on I have a level 2 smartlink and they are at close range...... the wind is blowing in their direction, the moon is full...I got a 24 ???'

So i had to resort to pulling out my Remminton 990, which, may i add did the trick.
( fully personalized with embossed down the barrel.......'I'M PISSED AND i've GOT A GUN')

What i hear you shouting is the problem, ??????

well short of walking around with a small arsenal, which is cool but can be abit tricky.......... how can i get more power out of the pistols, as they are good if you cant walk around with a shot gun etc.

At the moment I could hit em harder and do more damage than the gun would!

torz x
Shockwave_IIc
This topic has been brought up many times before in realtion to Light Pistols. Try a Search.

P.S. It wasn't a Savelette Guardian. 9M with optional burst, possibly the greatest Hand Gun to grace the game. In My Un-Biased Opinion biggrin.gif
torzzzzz
QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
This topic has been brought up many times before in realtion to Light Pistols.


true but you never know peeps might have some new ideas and YES the gardian is a kick ass pistol!!!

i have 2


torz x cool.gif
Fortune
The Guardian's drawback is that it requires a Complex Action to use burst fire.
hobgoblin
want more power? try flechette ammo if opposision is unarmored or explosive if not.

and yes, light pistols dont pack much on default, but roll 6 successes more then the target and you do D cool.gif
hermit
Shadowrun, for the sake of game mechanics, generally underestimates the danger weapons really pose.
Backgammon
If the GM allows called shots to bypass armour, get a Smartlink 2 and load up on some of the speciality ammo such as flechette, hollowpoint (+3 power!) or glazers if you can get them.

Aside from that, remember that a pistol is just the thing you use when your main gun is out of ammo wink.gif Shotguns are powerful, almost legal and common, while SMGs are well suited for shadowrunner work and assault rifles are always nice to have, if possible.
Kagetenshi
Light is correct. Keep in mind that a Light wound is above and beyond anything we would, IRL, call Light; it's big and painful enough to raise TNs. And before you go saying that a punch does more damage, consider that most people are going to be dealing 3M, which a Body 3 individual can expect to stage once.

~J
Spetulhu
Use a rifle if you want to kill stuff, that's what real cops and soldiers do. If you're down to a pistol it's best used for throwing a few slugs at people to make good your escape. Or shooting yourself if you're about to be captured by your worst enemies.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Light is correct. Keep in mind that a Light wound is above and beyond anything we would, IRL, call Light; it's big and painful enough to raise TNs. And before you go saying that a punch does more damage, consider that most people are going to be dealing 3M, which a Body 3 individual can expect to stage once.

~J

allso, punches are stun, not physical. get hit by D stun and your KO, not dieing.

if you try to do physical damage with punches you have to halve the power i belive (but dont know where i have that idea from).
Austere Emancipator
The problem with Light Pistols doing L damage isn't that one arbitrary box and +1 on TNs is not enough damage or something. The problem is that one weapon does 6L while another, which reasonably cannot be much more powerful than the former, does 9M. This is then compounded by the fact that an assault rifle does 8M.

If you consider it a problem in your games, there's several very simple ways of fixing it. For example, just up the Damage Level of Light Pistols and Machine Pistols by 1 accross the board, to 6M. And like Shockwave_IIc said, there's plenty of old threads with hundreds of posts worth of stuff on this very issue, which you might find interesting.

QUOTE (Spetulhu)
Use a rifle if you want to kill stuff, that's what real cops and soldiers do.

Cops have been known to use handguns to kill people quite effectively indeed. In 1st world countries these days, I expect handguns kill a lot more people than rifles.

That's not to say that rifles aren't more powerful, because they certainly are, and even when there's not a large margin in power there's a huge one in range, accuracy and penetration. Specifically range and accuracy are the reasons why rifles dominate armed forces' inventories.
Edward
Personally I donít use light pistols at all.

You ether use a heavy to punch holes in the target or a hold out as a delivery mechanism for nurostun.

Everything I have heard suggests that a light pistol IRL is only likely to kill you if the attacker gets lucky or is highly skilled. Especially if youíre waring even basic armour.

Donít get me wrong, it will hurt but any damage that registers in SR would send most people today for medical attention. Thatís not to say that runners are all uber toufe, most teems just have first aiders that can fix these problems.

Edward
Critias
QUOTE (hermit)
Shadowrun, for the sake of game mechanics, generally underestimates the danger weapons really pose.

Pistols quite certainly aren't "underestimated," when compared to other weapons. I'll agree (whole heartedly) that the 4L damage a basic hold-out offers up is seen by many characters as negligible -- it's one of the reasons my primary character's worked his Pistol score up to an 8 or 9 or so... but you quite simply can't deny that Heavy Pistols, as a class, are seriously overblown when compared to SMGs and Assault Rifles (for instance).

Look at the base damage for a Heavy Pistol, compare it to the base damage of any SMG or Assault Rifle in the book, and then just take a second to shake your head and chuckle. Find me a cop, soldier, or anyone else, who'd rather take a bullet from an AK-47 than an average handgun, and I'll show you a dumbass. In the interest of John Woo-style pistol action (and "decent concealability but still moderate lethality" action), I think the SR game developers overblew the Power of Heavy Pistols as a class, to encourage people to use them (instead of bigger, should-be-nastier, guns).

That said, I do agree that most firearms are less lethal than they should be, realistically. I think it was done on purpose, however (just like the relative overpowering of certain pistols in relation to other firearms), in order to keep up the "rule of cool," and encourage people to not necessarily shy away from combat, to make the game feel a little more fantasy and less gritty/dangerous (for better or worse), and even to encourage melee combat.

Want a good laugh? Sit down sometime and work out how many shots it'll take Average Joe (defaulting to Quickness) to kill himself, with a light pistol bought expressly for that purpose.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Edward)
Everything I have heard suggests that a light pistol IRL is only likely to kill you if the attacker gets lucky or is highly skilled. Especially if youíre waring even basic armour.

What the hell have you been listening to, then? And, quite crucially, what do you consider "a light pistol IRL"? A .22 LR pistol? A .380 Special? A 9x19mm? Any of these willl immediately send the recipient seeking for medical attention.

From the descriptions of the guns in SR, 9x19mm seems the most likely RL equivalent of Light and Machine Pistols. With the right ammunition, this caliber is very capable of killing a person on any hit to the central torso.
Critias
Generally speaking I use .22 or so for hold outs, anything else up to 9mm as a light pistol (or light SMG, or machine pistol) description, .40 or .45 as heavy pistol (or heavier SMG), .50 for any crazy 10M pistols people create, and then just fall back on standard assault rifle calibers as needed for bigger stuff.

The problem, of course, is that such descriptions aren't how the game works, and are (admittedly) kind of arbitrary, and don't take into consideration the otherwise metric SR method of measurement (or the fact that all ammo is caseless by default)... but I think they add a bit more flavor to a post or piece of fiction. It's not like you want to write "the 9M base damage pistol round flies true, and splatters the bad guy's head all over the wall," or something, when you can instead go on in great detail about exactly how a hollowpoint .45 round interacts with someone's frontal lobe.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Critias)
Find me a cop, soldier, or anyone else, who'd rather take a bullet from an AK-47 than an average handgun, and I'll show you a dumbass.

Me me me! Assuming, of course, that the AK-47 is loaded with standard FMJs and the handgun is chambered for the 9x19mm or a more powerful caliber firing JHPs. Otherwise, yeah, I'd rather take the AK-47.

A non-deforming/fragmenting bullet fired from a small-caliber rifle is by no means a particularly deadly object. It will tend to put a rather small hole in the target, except for a somewhat larger where ever it tumbles if it tumbles.

An article by Martin L. Fackler, MD, about the wound ballistics of the 7.62x39mm FMJ round.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Critias)
Generally speaking I use .22 or so for hold outs, anything else up to 9mm as a light pistol (or light SMG, or machine pistol) description, .40 or .45 as heavy pistol (or heavier SMG), .50 for any crazy 10M pistols people create, and then just fall back on standard assault rifle calibers as needed for bigger stuff.

You are probably yourself aware that, IRL, the differences between a 9x19mm and a .40 S&W or a .45 ACP are not nearly as great as those between Light and Heavy Pistols in SR, and also that the differences between the latter and some .50 pistol calibers (like the .50 AE) are far greater than what you get in SR between 9M and 10M HPs.
Critias
Yeah, but when someone says "heavy pistol" -- but doesn't mean "heaviest pistol you can possibly have" -- I think .45. To be honest, a basic 9M damage code handgun is about the most common thing on a character sheet in Shadowrun... and I hate to assign a .50 to something like that. How many police departments or security agencies (or militaries) do you know that hand out .50's to everyone for a sidearm? And what's more, once applying a .50 descriptor to a 9M heavy pistol, what do you do when someone wants a 10M?

Judging from a purely fluff perspective (in that all the sales pitches, etc, try to show 6L as being the "normal" handgun caliber, and the more popular), I gave the 6L damage code just a basic compact 9mm (from my admittedly limited experience, pretty much the most common handgun caliber). And, as mentioned, for some reason (I blame the 1911), ".45" is what jumps into my head when I think of an "average" feeling heavy pistol.

I'd much prefer it if every 6L firearm in the books did 6M, instead. It'd make things flow much more smoothly. There's a great chasm between light and heavy pistols in SR that doesn't really exist in real life. As it is, right now, try finding a pair of ridiculously common handgun calibers IRL that would jump like they do, with nothing in between, from 6L to 9M, to represent the differences in SR pistols. .38 to 9mm? Not really. 9mm to .40? Not really. .40 to .45? Not really. What would work to be the representations of 6L versus 9M base? Did a few common handgun calibers call off the face of the earth in all the confusion and Awakenings and whatnot?

So, yeah. Like I said, the list I use is largely arbitrary, but I'll stand by it being more fun than just calling stuff by the listed stats. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
How many police departments or security agencies (or militaries) deal with nine-foot, bone-encrusted walking tanks?

~J
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Critias)
Yeah, but [...]

I mostly agree with what you're saying there. I wasn't actually criticizing your choices of RL equivalents for SR calibers, I was more trying to point out the ridiculousness of the SR calibers, which you yourself do towards the end of your message. It would all kind of (though only kind of) work if Light Pistols were 6M, and you'd consider the equivalents something like LP=9x19, HP=hot 10x25, 10M HP=.44 Magnum.

You don't really "need" to put the .50 AE and similar extremely powerful calibers in there anywhere. They're quite rare, exceedingly rare in combat, not something you'd expect to find used as a combat sidearm by professional criminals (regardless of the movie Snatch). With only 3 Damage Codes available, I'd be more concerned with covering the common calibers.

QUOTE (Critias)
9mm (from my admittedly limited experience, pretty much the most common handgun caliber)

It definitely is. Were it not for the fucked up Damage Codes, I would absolutely consider Light Pistols the equivalents of the RL 9x19mm's.

QUOTE (Critias)
As it is, right now, try finding a pair of ridiculously common handgun calibers IRL that would jump like they do, with nothing in between, from 6L to 9M, to represent the differences in SR pistols. .38 to 9mm? Not really. 9mm to .40? Not really. .40 to .45? Not really.

Not, in fact, even close. Optimally, like Raygun, I would consider the 9x19mm a 7M and the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP 8Ms.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
How many police departments or security agencies (or militaries) deal with nine-foot, bone-encrusted walking tanks?

If they did, they'd be carrying shotguns (loaded with slugs) far more often.
A shift towards slightly more powerful handguns makes sense; but it's not the lack of trolls that has kept such a shift from occurring IRL, it's the unpleasantness of carrying, handling and firing large and powerful handguns. Still, compact handguns in calibers like the .454 Casull would likely become more common.
Shockwave_IIc
I personally would rather go with droping the power of the 9M's down by 2 putting them in line with SMG's which use similar if not the same types of ammo in real life.

That way you have the heavy guns do M which is more tissue damage then the smaller rounds. This is of cause my uneducated opinion.

Also with a Power of 7 An armoured vest + Plates, drops it to 3 which as Kage pointed out is very likely to get staged down to a Light by your average human. Take a Swat Member, with higher body and they won't take that much either. While the Lighter rounds will in most case's won't do anything. It also helps with "anti-Vehicleness" of the heavy pistols a little as well.

I Like this way myself though im not to sure if it's represented in real life all that much.
RunnerPaul
Light Pistols' Light damage code was slightly less of a problem under First Edition's variable staging rules, because whichever side of the opposed roll had the most net successes could typically get to stage that light damage code upwards/downwards at a rate of one step per net success, instead of one step every two net successes that's the default for all damage from Second Edition onward.

Under First Edition's rules, many skilled shooters gravitated to Light Pistols even with the Light damage code, because they found that the amount of dice they usually threw behind a shot could more often than not result in a Serious or Deadly result.
Charon
I always figured a SMG was firing pistol caliber ammunition. I feel an UZI III ought to have the same damage code as a Beretta.

So I just upped the light pistols and hold out from L to M. And a few of the light pistols graduated to 7M, like some of the SMGs. And I upped the concealability of all light pistols and hold out by 1 to 2 points on average.

Even with those house rules you don't see many light pistols in the hands of PCs, but it has happened every once in a while now.

Hmm, I could also cancel the recoil penalty for SA firing of light rounds...

GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (torzzzzz)
Ok so i have posted a few threads but this one i feel strongly about,

I know i am not the most experience player in the world and i am slowly but surely coming to terms with the millions of rules for this game. but is it me or is the pistol damage a bit week.


Just the other day i was on a run and was horrified to pull out my pistol to see that it only did light damage. ( think it was the Savelette guardian).

So I pulled out the other one (Aries Predator) to find out it did 9M

I vainly tryed to justify more damage you know the drill..... 'oh oh come on I have a level 2 smartlink and they are at close range...... the wind is blowing in their direction, the moon is full...I got a 24 ???'

So i had to resort to pulling out my Remminton 990, which, may i add did the trick.
( fully personalized with embossed down the barrel.......'I'M PISSED AND i've GOT A GUN')

What i hear you shouting is the problem, ??????

well short of walking around with a small arsenal, which is cool but can be abit tricky.......... how can i get more power out of the pistols, as they are good if you cant walk around with a shot gun etc.

At the moment I could hit em harder and do more damage than the gun would!

torz x

It's simple: Game Balance.

SR is desinged to be a game, not a real-life model as many of us (for some reason) want it to be. If this was indeed more "real" then people would be dead more often than not IMO.

hahnsoo
QUOTE (Charon)
Even with those house rules you don't see many light pistols in the hands of PCs, but it has happened every once in a while now.

I had a character that specialized in the Walther PB-120. Great concealability and Light Pistol damage codes are much more tolerable with a Smartlink II and called shots with Flechette ammunition. He was able to take that thing just about anywhere.
torzzzzz
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Mar 1 2005, 10:14 AM)

if you try to do physical damage with punches you have to halve the power i belive (but dont know where i have that idea from).

cool.gif

unless like me you have smartlinked shock gloves!

best mod i ever did!!

QUOTE
except for a somewhat larger where ever it tumbles if it tumbles



tumbler bullets are another option, if you can get them when my dad was in Iraq the first time round he brought home a newspaper photo of a bloke who had been hit by one........ nasty and hes was definatly not going to get up and walk away form it!

torz x
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Grinder the Troll)
It's simple: Game Balance.

Then doesn't that make Heavy Pistols horribly unbalanced, being far more powerful and only taking a minor hit in Concealability?
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Grinder the Troll)
It's simple: Game Balance.

Then doesn't that make Heavy Pistols horribly unbalanced, being far more powerful and only taking a minor hit in Concealability?

Not that I don't agree, everyone carries a Heavy Pistol in my games, I think I am the only one using Light Machine Pistols but the cool factor is endless. wink.gif

You've only got so many properties to change on SR weapons, moving from Light to heavy Pistol has the same benefit and Bursting with a BF capable weapon for the most part, +3power +1Wound Level.

There is so little room for adjustment with SR weapons it alot of the problem, but it is what it is: One of the least cumbersome combat systems that keeps the action moving (well most of the time).
Smiley
QUOTE (torzzzzz)
unless like me you have smartlinked shock gloves!

best mod i ever did!!

...You're kidding, right?
mfb
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Then doesn't that make Heavy Pistols horribly unbalanced, being far more powerful and only taking a minor hit in Concealability?

yes, yes it does. don't believe me? find me two character sheets in ten that don't list a heavy pistol.
Garland
I have seven characters in my current campaign, and only one has a heavy pistol.
torzzzzz
QUOTE (Smiley)
QUOTE (torzzzzz @ Mar 1 2005, 02:47 PM)
unless like me you have smartlinked shock gloves!

best mod i ever did!!

...You're kidding, right?

nope............ works dam well too!!! will hunt out my stats and let you know!

hehehe the joys of having a weaponsmith with electronics as a character!


torz x cool.gif
Smiley
Unless you house ruled it, that's not possible.
QUOTE (SR3 @ page 301)
A smartlink is the feedback loop circuitry necessary to take full advantage of a smartgun.

QUOTE (Man and Machine @ page 31)
Smartlink-2 systems only work with guns that are smartlink equipped.
mfb
it actually is, as long as the GM approves it. stuff like that is the entire point of the Linking to Devices specialization of Electronics B/R.

edit: er, wait. does he mean he's got a smartlink interfact pad built into the shock gloves, or that he gets -2 TN to all his punches? because #2 is definitley not in the rules.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (mfb)
edit: er, wait. does he mean he's got a smartlink interfact pad built into the shock gloves, or that he gets -2 TN to all his punches? because #2 is definitley not in the rules.

That's what I thought from reading it. In which case, that would be bizzare.
Smiley
I took it to mean #2. That's what it sounded like to me.
Besides, why bother with an SL induction pad in some shock gloves?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Smiley)
I took it to mean #2. That's what it sounded like to me.
Besides, why bother with an SL induction pad in some shock gloves?

To hook up to some Smart Goggles, perhaps?
Smiley
Why? If you have an induction pad in your palm, one in a set of shock gloves would be unnecessary. If you don't have one in your palm, one in your shock gloves would do you no good, since you can just plug the smartgoggles straight into the your gun.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Smiley)
Why? If you have an induction pad in your palm, one in a set of shock gloves would bu unnecessary. If you don't have one in your palm, one in your shock gloves would do you no good, since you can just plug the smartgoggles straight into the your gun.

I'm not saying it's smart. I'm just saying. biggrin.gif
Smiley
Fair enough.
mfb
this is probably something that should go in another thread, but... given that SureShot technology (SSG) can apparently make it easier to throw anything, it's really only a few short steps to actual smartlinked goves, boots, elbow pads, etcetera. if SureShot can read your arm movements well enough to help you correct your throw, it should just as easily be able to read the rest of your body movements well enough to help correct your melee attacks.

of course, since there are no rules for SureShot (yet!), it's kinda hard to do more than theorize.
Charon
"I got myself a smartlink on my shocking glove. It's wiz. There's a small dot indicating where my fist is pointing at all time. Only trouble is that when I use it to punch, my fist always ends hiding the target. Weird, huh?" wink.gif

Raygun
QUOTE (Garland)
I have seven characters in my current campaign, and only one has a heavy pistol.

Then your group is, by a very large margin, the exception to the rule.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Me me me! Assuming, of course, that the AK-47 is loaded with standard FMJs and the handgun is chambered for the 9x19mm or a more powerful caliber firing JHPs. Otherwise, yeah, I'd rather take the AK-47.

Dumbass. wink.gif

The Grifter
To answer the original question this post is about, yes, the majority of SR pistols do Light Damage, but keep in mind this is a fantasy game, and not an exercise in realism. Alo, a psitol's damage (base) may suck, but it is a tool, and like most tools, should be used for it's intended purpose. You don't bust bricks with a can opener, and you don't open a can of beans with a sledgehammer. Well, unless you're Gallagher.
mfb
this is a fantasy-cyberpunk game. traditionally, cyberpunk is deadlier than real life. though, you're right on several counts, though: pistols that deal 6L damage are definitely fantasy, and the right tool for opening a can of beans just might be a light pistol. it's basically useless for anything else. if the can has armor, though, you're better off just punching it.
The Grifter
Good point, mfb.
Garland
QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE (Garland @ Mar 1 2005, 07:14 PM)
I have seven characters in my current campaign, and only one has a heavy pistol.

Then your group is, by a very large margin, the exception to the rule.

I freely admit that this is the case. nyahnyah.gif
Cynic project
Torzzz, froma meta game point of view, you should use a heavy pistol. They are just about as easy to hide as light pistols and are just about as good as any other type of guns,well short of heavy weapons.

But If you go about and kill the people keeping your 600K I would say you should get yourself a a laser pistol. Cause nothing says it your time to die like lasers.
Arethusa
From an ingame perspective, unless your character is moron, he or she will not pick a categorically inferior weapon with, at the absolute best, a couple extra rounds of capacity or a slightly smaller form factor. It's pretty safe to assume that just a little experience in a fight would teach anyone packing a light pistol that it's good if everyone's playing paintballó and very little else. This has nothing to do with metagaming and everything to do with probably the mot universally acknowledged Stupid Fucking Decision made by the Shadowrun designers, and that's quite a long list to crawl to the top of.
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