No, but I wish they didn't spoil System Crash and Critical Error by posting on the SR homepage, The year is 2070 ­five years since the System Failure took down the old Matrix."

Risking of killing that poor horse AGAIN, Demonseed Elite was talking about how *someone* could design a computer (*cough*console*cough*) game more easily, because of the streamlining of the rules.

Eh, some people find it easier to "visualize" combat with minis and a grid map, or just some scribbling on dry-erase boards.

I like it because it makes people think a little more tactically. Not really any "rules" needed for it, but maybe some examples, kind of like BattleTech used to have for the minis (as opposed to the cardboard standups and hex maps).

True, but does Jordan Weisman also still work for the Microsoft Games Group as creative director, or is that no more? It would seem that a cooperative effort with WizKids/MS could be possible.

I imagine it'd be pretty messy without WizKids' cooperation. I mean, Microsoft owns the rights, but could they even reference any setting material for Shadowrun made by the print RPG after they bought the license? It would seem that would be beyond their ownership.

Yeah, I mean, Microsoft would likely have to come to some agreement with WizKids to do that, but I would think that would be easier for them than trying to use the old rules (not even sure they can legally do that) or developing their own mechanics.

Actually, Deus' whole plan, all along, was to bring about the creation of SR4. Really!

I'm one of those people, but I tend to just use dice/counters for Shadowrun anyway. It's a pitty WizKids went with those action figures instead of a 'standard' collectible mini game (i.e. D&D Minis). I wouldn't have played the mini game, but I would have collected for Shadowrun use.

I'll say. The "Most users ever online" record was more than doubled, and this sub-forum alone has had something like 111, no 112, sorry 113 replies in about 2½ hours.

Believe me, it's never going to be as simple as that. And I promise you, you'll be kicking yourself to the metaplanes and back if you miss the end game. (Crimson I think you in particular will want to see stuff coming together that's been developed over the past couple of years).

That is an often-repeated concern. Same thing was said about D&D when they redid their rules to the d20 system. And some people still feel that way. Regardless, it was very good for the game of D&D and for WotC.

God I hope so. Though I hope alot of the spells change; Invisability for instance really needs to not be as all-or-nothing as it is right now--maybe an increase in TN to spot the glamoured person equal to Force + net successes, or similar? That'll also keep people from whinning about being able to target spells through walls and stupid crap like that.

Source material != Game mechanics.

It's not completely throwing away the concepts that have existed since SR1, but at the same time it is a sweeping change. Don't worry so much.

And, honestly, it needs dumbing-down, to a point. How often do we hear people whinning about how complicated the rigger rules are, or how they never use the Matrix and deckers because they can't be bothered to learn all those extra rules associated with it?

yeah. that's why i retain my high hopes. i'm hoping they're talking about fluff and history.

the rigger rules and matrix rules should be dumbed down. they're not realistic, so there's really no reason for them to be so complex; the guys who like cars and computers IRL wouldn't mind the complexity, if realism were part of the package, and the guys who don't care about computers and cars IRL don't generally want the complexity and don't care about the realism. complex + realistic = good; simple + unrealistic = good; complex + unrealistc = horror.

Yes, but I can see them getting rid of stuff like the Maneuver Score, Open Tests, etc. Maybe make decking more skill-based than hardware-based as well, or at least lower the sheer number of utilities a typical decker has to have in his deck to be effective.

Yep, and it doesn't end there. Think about street sams. Cyberware, bioware, and nanoware all work on their own rules systems and then there's added levels of complexity on those (maintenance, SoTA, stress points, nanite degradation, etc.). Then you've got magic with seperate rules systems for hermetics, shamans, houngans, etc. There's a lot of room for some streamlining.

Oh we use minis and grids in my game - but I don't need rules for it. We got plenty rules for movement/firing/whatever in the game, plenty enough to maneuver minis around.

So when the security mage comes across a decker who's just about to hook up his program carriers to a system so he can deck naked, said security mage can hurl a turn to goo spell at him? Sweet.

There will be a Matrix in SR4. It'll be different, but there will be one.

The apprehension is completely understandable, but from a development perspective, the game really did need a serious looking-at. I'm making this comparison too much now, since it might not really be very accurate, but people were equally concerned about when WoTC re-did D&D. But, end result is, that game has been healthier, even though I am sure there are players who didn't end up happy.

V:tR is the opposite of SR4 -- V:tR was a completely new setting with very similar mechanics. SR4 is, by the look of things, a new coat of paint on a '59 Volkswagon made out of rotting flesh.

...Not that I'm cynical, but there have been endless promises from RPG companies of "completely revised" rulesets, and few rulesets that have actually been "completely revised".

Though if SR4 comes out as shiny as, say, SilCORE did... and, oh yeah, with books that don't need to be cut apart and rebound before first use... I'll buy it anyway. I'm just a whiner who couldn't live without a BBB in his possession.

...you're not going to recolor the BBB again, are you? Big Beige Book just ain't right.

-Albert

Same here. I'm speechless right now and will probably wait for the new BBB with impending dread, but unless they manage to somehow completely ruin the game, I know I'll buy the book. I'm such a loser

Possible colors:
Blue
Black
Biege
Brown
Bloody
Brimstone

That's a lot to ask, being as some of them are barely compatible with SR3.

Heh...but there was always a system of conversion. Don't throw out the old just to get to the new.

I wouldnt say that ... the latest books incorporated a lot of background (like the top 10s or the magic fluff) ... it could still be useful for 4th edition.

SYL

I was just thinking that as I went to the UPS tracking page. New server should be here tomorrow.

It'd be fun if someone at FanPro put together a one page PDF file titled SOTA:2065 that consisted of nothing but Shadowtalk on a semi-functional node (Like how some of the shadowtalk in Bug City was laced with all sorts of glitches and routing code errors) where the topic of conversation is how the matrix is crashing everywhere, and then post that PDF onto the website as promotional material.