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Charon
"No comments" brings more question. And if you get stonewalled by the communication people, you dig deeper. Sooner or later, someone talk. It's called human nature (both the questioning and the talking).

How you control information is limit strategic information on a need to know basis. And if someone in the know gets questioned, you tell him to smile and say of course not. The only real way to prevent people from finding your secrets is to set it up so they don't look for them in the first place.

In that case, they did a good job because SR4 took us by surprise (AFAICT). If they'd been saying "No comments" for the past 3 years, I bet we'd have known much earlier. Some people on our side would have gotten inquisitive and some people on their side would have slipped.
Sandoval Smith
"No comment" I'll support.

Fanpro might've ALWAYS had plans to do a Fourth Edition, but they couldn't admit this, and then not give any time frame. Someone would say, "X confirmed there WOULD be a 4th Ed!" but then as time went by and nothing materialized, people would get unhappy about how 'slow' Fanpro was moving. Even worse would be if X had given a date, even a far off one like three years. If three years went by, and nothing had materialized, again, people would get really upset.

Now, FanPro might not've had any plans for a 4th Edition, so they were being perfectly truthful in answering 'no.' But then they ended up making a nice amount on the current SR properties, enough so that actually making 4th Edition was a viable prospect. Again, they would say 'no' because at that point it still might've been years down the road. Since truth is not an absolute value, 'no' is still perfectly acceptable. Something may happen that would force them to shelve the project, and wouldn't that piss off the people who they said, 'yes,' to.

So finally, the project is in the works. They have a good idea on content, and schedule, and now they can say, "yes, there will be a 4th Edition," and it will be the truth.

Now, if they'd just said, "no comment' the entire time, then no matter what happened, they could've stuck to it. Of course, if like I said, at the beginning they'd had no intentions to do it, 'no' would've been a perfectly acceptable answer, but the switch to 'no comment' would've sent up flags all over the place.

*edit*
The control of information is important, especially before you know what the finished product is like. What if one of the intial ideas was to move the setting to 6065 and basically make it Earthdawn 2. Even though that idea would be discarded early on, rumors of 'they're ruining the game; all the PCs races are being replaced with flying monekys,' etc would've plagued it all the way to release.
mfb
rumors and gossip are as much a part of this business as the paper that the books are printed on. stopping unproductive rumors before they start cuts down on the level of crap that the writers, advertisers, publishers, etcetera have to deal with. this cuts costs. cutting costs is good business.
Charon
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
Now, if they'd just said, "no comment' the entire time, then no matter what happened, they could've stuck to it.

"No comment" as a default answer makes people angry. They'll say the company isn't being transparent.

Lying once in a while get forgotten, annoying people all the time with an ambivalent answer doesn't.

It's like Machiavelli said. You better do your dirty stuff all in one run. They'll forget, they always do. Annoy people continually and they'll rebel. (Of course, he was talking about the use of cruelty VS genrosity, but it still applies wink.gif )
Bull
Who did you ask about this, would be my question.

Outside of Rob and a couple others, no one knew about this before GC Indy. At and right after GC Indy, a small handful of freelancers were told about this. Not even all of the freelancers, I might add. This includes the majority of the "Convention" crew that GMs and helps out at the conventions.

You might not have been lied to. They simply may not have known.

Bull
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Charon)
It's like Machiavelli said. You better do your dirty stuff all in one run. They'll forget, they always do. Annoy people continually and they'll rebel. (Of course, he was talking about the use of cruelty VS genrosity, but it still applies wink.gif )

But he also said, "The prince should nonetheless make himself feared in such a mode that if he does not acquire love, he escapes hatred, because being feared and not being hated can go together very well. This he will always do if he abstains from the property of his citizens and his subjects, and from their women... But above all, he must abstain from the property of others, because men forget the death of a father more quickly than the loss of a patrimony."
-- Niccolo Machiavelli. The Prince (Mansfield, 2nd ed.), p.67.
mfb
indeed. if rob boyle kills my dad, i'll be pissed for a while. but if he breaks SR? it's on like donkey kong.
Garland
Likewise, he should stay away from my woman. Cuz Niccolo said so.
Charon
rollin.gif

Hey, it's not empty advice. How many high powered executives are in trouble right this moment 'cause they didn't remember that the company's money wasn't their money?

Never mind the simple rule of keeping your hands off the women in your immediate work environment. Especially the married ones. Especially Those married to your close collaborators and clients! Seriously.

The Prince is still very much current. Just because killing another man's father is no longer a practical policy doesn't mean Nicco is outdated. In modern parlance that quote about father and patrimony could be translated to : You can fire employees and the anger will eventually die down, but don't fuck up with their pension plan unless you relish getting dragged to court.
Garland
No, I agree completely; the rage I feel at even the thought of someone messing wtih my wife frightens me.

It's just the thought of Rob Boyle coming after her that strikes me as humorous.
Kagetenshi
If Adam started hitting on my significant other, I think I'd be more jealous of her.

~J
Jon Szeto
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
If Adam started hitting on my significant other, I think I'd be more jealous of her.

Well, you could always get back by hitting on Ada. love.gif grinbig.gif
Arethusa
QUOTE (mfb)
indeed. if rob boyle kills my dad, i'll be pissed for a while. but if he breaks SR? it's on like donkey kong.

I mean, hey, I was willing to roll with it when you were just talking shit, but now that you've declared war on women's suffrage? That's just too much.
Adam
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
If Adam started hitting on my significant other, I think I'd be more jealous of her.

~J

Post pictures.
Arethusa
Of Kage?
Jrayjoker
Well, I'm not that pretty, but I'd be flattered if you thought about hitting on me...

Saying, "No comment," is like saying, "My lawyer has advised me not to respond on the off chance I might incriminate myself."

If you want to keep it a secret and someone asks you the direct question, "Are you working on X?" the only options you have are to lie or tell the truth. Either way, the answer is, "No," if you want to keep anything a secret.
Kagetenshi
Again, that's simply not true. "No comment" works just as well when the answer really is no.

~J
Charon
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Again, that's simply not true. "No comment" works just as well when the answer really is no.

~J

Well, I've stated why I believe your wrong. If even Nicco can't convince you, we're at a dead end! wink.gif

Just as a curiosity, who do you know that answer "no comment" when intent on maintaining secrecy?

"No comment" is the answer of people getting out of court, cabinet reunion, board meeting etc. It's when reporter have a good idea of what's going, want your opinion or position on the matter and you don't want to give it.

No comment is when people already know and you want to stonewall them. No is what you say when the answer is negative or positive but you don't want them to know.

If you disagree, find me example of companies/people who answer "no comment" to everything and show us how it worked for them.

I mean, if you affirm "No comment" works just as well in that kind of situation (SR4 development), then surely you must seen it in action.
Kagetenshi
Apple Computer.

Edit: they've broken it a few times, Steve Jobs especially, but "no comment" is their default response.

~J
Charon
Ok, now we need a communication researcher to look into it and compare the fallout to see if it work just as well.

Any communication major around here? Hello?

Man, I wish I was in communication. It sounds like a good thesis, seriously. I'm still going with "No" but we can go at it forever without a serious research that brings fuel to the debate.
Jrayjoker
For the sake of whatever, I agree that one's ethics are dark gray if one says no when the truth is yes. Even if the purpose is to keep secrets secret.

Look at the megacorps in SR. They engage in immoral, unethical research and deny it to the shareholders. Not pretty, but if they said no comment and the truth ever came to light they would be so hammered by investigative reporters, etc. that they couldn't afford scientists for all the security personel they would need.
Crimsondude 2.0
n/m
Papadoc
The correct response from FanPro should have been; Sir/Madam I can neither confirm nor deny that information! This clearly states you are not admitting to nor are you saying that the information/question is not true. I learned this years ago from a friend that was a reporter, any other answer leaves room for speculation.

Just my .02 worth, YMMV
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (Papadoc @ Mar 20 2005, 08:43 AM)
The correct response from FanPro should have been; Sir/Madam I can neither confirm nor deny that information!  This clearly states you are not admitting to nor are you saying that the information/question is not true.  I learned this years ago from a friend that was a reporter, any other answer leaves room for speculation.

Just my .02 worth, YMMV

That statement alone leaves plenty of room for speculation. And I've never met someone manning a con booth who had that big of a stick up their butt.
Synner
And a stick that big certainly suggests to avid and suspicious fans everywhere they are hiding something...
RunnerPaul
The only safe thing to do is assume that they're always hiding something.
Crimsondude 2.0
Well, I see no reason to treat SR differently from, say, Apple. If I want to buy a product from them, I'm not going to do it the day before MacWorld or WWDC. Consider that I was considering upgrading to a 40GB iPod--which an Apple retail store salesman would have gladly sold me (most likely, in fact, assuredly, because they didn't know)--this winter. But I sure as hell wasn't going to do it the day before WWDC. Good thing, too, because the 40GB model doesn't even exist anymore and the 60GB is about the same price as what I would have paid for the 40GB.

SR has had a history of making some pretty bold moves at events leading up to Gencon, so the fact that they kept it a secret is not so much a shock as an admiration of their infosec.
kylleran
I'll come out from my near perpetual lurk since either myself or one of my booth people is being called a liar which somewhat irritates me.
As the person who ran the SoCal booth I can tell you that I had very specific instructions on how to handle SR4 questions. These instructions were almost exactly the same ones that we were operating under at GenCon Indy this past year. I made sure that all of my booth people knew what to say, I think we even practiced how to handle the situation. Additionally I can tell you that I handled nearly all of the questions regarding a new edition that came through the booth and my response was uniform.

What I told people was that there was no official word on a new edition, that we were doing well with 3e products and that we had many more planned including a major event for the summer (this was before we'd announced System Failure). It may have been vague and misleading but it was not my place to let that cat out of the bag.

Also as someone who has to deal with the press and outside competitors in my real job and with sensitive or secret data on a daily basis I can tell you that the phrase "No comment" should always be avoided. It's a sure sign that you are up to something.

Finally there are a lot of rumors and claims flying around here regarding the SR4 project. Unless you read it on the official site take everything you read here with a grain of salt.
Incomplete Angel
As the guy who was left in charge at GenConSoCal every time Kylleran had to step away, i cant help but back him in this. There were very specific responses to questions regarding SR4 and we were beaten mercilessly until the words became rote. I for one still bear the scars of FanPro's merciless treatment of its wage sla- er, booth monkeys.

But think about it logically. You're under an NDA. There's a top secret project going on that hasnt been officially announced. Somebody asks you about said project.

Do you:
A) Spill the beans.
B) Lie to the person's face, knowing that in a few months official word will be released.
C) Skirt around the subject being as vague and noncommittal as possible.

It wasnt as though there was an easy way out. But I can tell you that our motivation wasnt to screw our consumers. We werent trying to trick people into buying books that would be "useless" to them with the release of SR4.

Who do you think FanPro is? WotC?

In regards to this "No Comment" line of reasoning... Im reminded of news coverage of major court cases.
"Mr Jackson, what do you have to say about your alleged child molestation?"
<i>"I have no comment at this time"</i>
"Mr Peterson, what do you have to say about the rumors stating you murdered your wife?"
<i>"I have no comment at this time"</i>

Its just like pleading the 5th ammendment. You're only doing it to avoid incriminating yourself.

But to whoever laid the allegation that they were lied to I ask this:
PM me with the description of the person you talked to, if you can remember. I for one am curious as to who is allegedly responsible.
Kagetenshi
Damn it, if you only pull out "no comment" when something is in the works, of course it's going to mean yes! When information is properly managed, it ought to be the response to any inquiry true or false save those that it is officially considered desirable to confirm or deny!

After the fourth or fifth time "no comment" turns out to have meant "no", the rumor-mongers stop having so much credibility.

~J
Sandoval Smith
Yeah, but K10-4, in any highly fan intensive industry, it seems that pretty often even a flat out 'no' ends up being heard as a 'yes' (or potentially, a maybe).
CirclMastr
"So how exactly do the rules for Invisibility and Improved Invisibility work?"
"No comment."
mfb
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Damn it, if you only pull out "no comment" when something is in the works, of course it's going to mean yes!

except that in today's world, "no comment" never means "maybe", it means "i have a secret". it doesn't matter how many times any single group says "no comment", it's always going to be taken the wrong way.
toturi
QUOTE (Incomplete Angel)
There were very specific responses to questions regarding SR4 and we were beaten mercilessly until the words became rote. I for one still bear the scars of FanPro's merciless treatment of its wage sla- er, booth monkeys.

But think about it logically. You're under an NDA. There's a top secret project going on that hasnt been officially announced. Somebody asks you about said project.

Do you:
A) Spill the beans.
B) Lie to the person's face, knowing that in a few months official word will be released.
C) Skirt around the subject being as vague and noncommittal as possible.

It wasnt as though there was an easy way out. But I can tell you that our motivation wasnt to screw our consumers. We werent trying to trick people into buying books that would be "useless" to them with the release of SR4.

You answer that you have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement.
CirclMastr
QUOTE (toturi)
You answer that you have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement.

Except that you wouldn't have signed an NDA unless there was a project underway, so you've basically answered yes.
Charon
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
After the fourth or fifth time "no comment" turns out to have meant "no", the rumor-mongers stop having so much credibility.

Rumor-mongers never lose their credibility. They are faceless, relentless and they have exactly as much credibility after being proven wrong than before.

It's not about the messenger, it's about its public. As long as there are people to believe the rumor-monger, the process continue. And the day no one believes a rumor without supporting evidence is they day humanity has ascended into a higher life form.

Incomplete Angel
Answering "I have signed an NDA" is functionally the same as "No Comment".
FrostyNSO
Agreed.
RunnerPaul
About the most neutral deflection I could think of would be "If they were working on that, you don't expect they'd let a lowly Con-booth peon break the news, do you?" and even that isn't that good.
BishopMcQ
Hi folks--

I've sent out some PMs now let me step back to center stage so I can be chastised in public.

Allow me to apologize, it was not my intent to begin four pages of flaming people from con or arguing over the intricacies of form and function with the English language.

The message I heard was that there were no plans for SR4 in the near future. Obviously this is relative language and I took it to mean that there would not be a new system for at least a 12-18 months since playtesting would have begun and plans would be made.

I've tried to mitigate damage that my statement caused as it got imported into separate threads but had not been following this thread as closely as I could have.

Everyone who worked at the booth did their best to be approachable and helpful even when the hours had dragged on and it was the last day of the con. They are good people and I apologize if a statement I said caused misgivings or ill-will. It was influenced by frustration brought on by aspects of life and should not have been vented here.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (McQuillan)
I've tried to mitigate damage that my statement caused as it got imported into separate threads but had not been following this thread as closely as I could have.

For what it's worth, I just went and removed one of my posts in another thread that referenced your initial posts here.
kylleran
No blood, no foul. I think what it came down to was differing interpretations of 'near future'. I saw it as 'not within the next six or so books' and you saw it as over a year.
mfb
actually, saying "i've signed an NDA" is worse than "no comment", because "no comment" could possibly mean no, while confirmation of the fact that an NDA for that project exists means that the project itself exists.

"i've signed an NDA" is functionally the same as "yes, there is an SR4, and i'm working on it. please, pester me with more questions so that i can further destroy any possibility that this project will remain secret."
nezumi
QUOTE (kylleran)
What I told people was that there was no official word on a new edition

This is a good thing to say. It is perfectly true, and while misdirecting, it's not misleading. The FAQ, however, said "there are no PLANS". There WERE plans, otherwise FanPro wouldn't have been working on it for the last year. That is a lie. Had the FAQ said "I do not know of any plans", or "there are no official word on plans", or even "there are no official plans", that would probably be okay. But they said "there are no plans". It's not like he couldn't have rephrased.

As for the NDA's... If I'm an author, and I regularly have an NDA on whatever I"m working on, I'll say that. People ask me if there's a 4th edition and I'll say "I'm sorry, I signed an NDA which prevents me from talking about anything FanPro may or may not be developing." Are you going to revise M&M? "I'm sorry, I signed an NDA which..."

If you only use the answer for the 4th edition question, people will get suspicious. If you're smart, as the authors have shown themselves to be, you cann avoid lying to your players' faces.

In the end, irrelevant as to whether it helped their sales or it was the safest course of action, they did lie directly and unquestioningly to their fans for about a year, in the FAQ. If they feel that was the right thing to do, then they'd better be willing to take the heat for their choice when fans say they don't appreciate being lied to.
Nikoli
That's a very good point nezumi. But the ole NDA comment is the same as no comment it just takes longer to say.

The problem is, media, movies, and television have all led us to believe that "No comment" is synonymous with "Yes, but I'm not allowed to say that."
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (nezumi)
The FAQ, however, said "there are no PLANS".

For what it's worth, they did drop that wording from the FAQ last update. And that update did come before March 15th.

Now, I'll admit that they were probably working on it for an appreciable amount of time prior to the last FAQ update, but as long as they weren't planning SR4 prior to the update before that, I'll be willing to accept that they took it out at the first practical opportunity.

I suppose, some out there wouldn't have been satisfied unless they'd made a special update to the FAQ they day they started work on SR4, but without other FAQ questions added to mask the fact that they were also deleting text, that would have been effectively announcing it day one. That's the only thing that'd make some people happy, I suppose.
Kagetenshi
No, they should have worded it properly before it hit the FAQ page.

~J
Fortune
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
Now, I'll admit that they were probably working on it for an appreciable amount of time prior to the last FAQ update

I don't think they were working on it before the previous FAQ update. I seem to recall that it was quite a bit more than a year between the last two updates.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
No, they should have worded it properly before it hit the FAQ page.

So, to reiterate what Fortune was saying, at the time the FAQ that had it was written, the SR4 Disclaimer was worded properly, because as of that date, they had no plans for SR4.

The first time the FAQ was updated since then, the SR4 Disclaimer wasn't re-worded, it wasn't worded at all. They fully excised the disclaimer from the FAQ.
nezumi
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
The first time the FAQ was updated since then, the SR4 Disclaimer wasn't re-worded, it wasn't worded at all. They fully excised the disclaimer from the FAQ.

The FAQ was updated on what, March 15th of this year? 13 days ago? Yet we have 4th edition in playtesting?

I *SUSPECT* that someone in Fanpro was planning on a fourth edition on or before March 14th. In fact, I have a nagging suspicion SOMEONE in Fan Pro had one planned back in 2004! And unlike things like personal e-mails and journals, the FAQ does serve as the OFFICIAL voice of Fan Pro. It's on their website and maintained by their web people. If Fan Pro, not the author of the FAQ, knows a 4th edition is in the works, leaving the FAQ statement is a lie. It is their responsibility that that lie is there. Whether they were ethically obliged to take it off their website is up to debate, but there is no question that they were publicly advertising a lie as their corporate line.
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