This is going to be interesting.

I did mention somewhere in here that I'm a cranky bastard sometimes, didn't I?

To be honest, CD, I don't think I have anything that'll convince you. It is just a pride thing with me, and I don't deny it. I also don't expect to win this argument with Rob, either; I've been pitching it at SR line developers for a number of years now, and it's gotten nowhere. It's my own personal windmill (along with PC heights and weights, where I think I have a better chance of actually effecting change), and I intend to tilt at it for as long as I can keep up my own interest.

It is, however, the reason I introduced the Azziewatch data haven and the Sons of the Alamo. I need someone to tilt at the windmills with me. We might not win, but we're going to fight anyway. (If I ever get off my ass and work on some of the fiction I have outlined, I'll be making some use of some of this material, too, but I think holding your breath would be contraindicated.) If some of the GMs out there want to fight that fight with me, I feel happy to have provided some tools.

I'm not entirely sure that's a good enough reason. Just because you don't like it? Okay, I don't like that Canada merged with the US and lost a good chunk of itself in the process. That's not even logical with the way Canada's politics work. We'd have kept most of the praries, BC, and hell, most of the Territories too (Quebec's a different story). That would, actually be the only reason the US would really want to merge with Canada, the vast amount of natural resources we have. The way it is now, the US picked up fifteen million people and a big, red maple leaf in the merger, and lost the whole of the south. Bad deal all around, really.

But that's what happened in the game, and we can only extrapolate that things went from bad to shit-poor sometime in the early 21st century in the SR universe, making such a ludicrous land giveaway and unprofitable merger acceptable to Canada (or even the US). The best thing Canada did for the US when they merged was introduce the concept of a whole slew of parties into what had once been a 2 party system.

This is aesthetically unpleasing to me and offensive to my pride, as a Canadian, that we should allow our nation to be reduced so greatly. I'm not even really interested in seeing the UCAS take back that land in SR, it's a different world, with different borders, and a lot of things are radically, inalterably different from our world now. That's one of the things I like about SR. Why should they change the Texas/Aztlan border? The azzies got that land through force of arms, they're bloody well going to work to keep it, and it's going to take significantly more than Texas can offer to shift them.

I won't go over what Crimson laid out in the other thread, but I'm coming for that point of view.

The only thing I can see happening is a peace deal between the CAS and Aztlan where the land dispute is ended. However, there would have to be something in it for the Azzies. Something big. Really the only reason the CAS is against Aztlan is the Texas situation, right?

So what could the CAS give Aztlan?

Well, Denver, right? Probably not going to happen, but slim chance.
Stop the pirates in the Caribbean (which hurt both nations' trade and tourism).
End the military agreements with the PCC.
Stopping aid to the Yucatan.
A return of all spies and handing over terrorists, stopping paramilitary groups.

I happen to think the entire history regarding Calfree is a load of trash, and I'm not alone in this. It basically portrays my home state (and in particular my home city of LA) as a mix of half-aware hippies and yuppies with their heads so far up their own anuses that they didn't notice and were incapable of reacting at all to any of half a dozen armies slowly gathering at its borders. I doubt any of it's going to change, though (though Saito had damn well better be dead by 2070! ); I wouldn't really expect it to.

Personally, I'd like to see Texas get completely taken over, but that's just me.

~J

Kick the Azzies out of Texas! Count me in as a second for Patrick Goodman's idea.
No way would Texas allow Aztlaners to keep part of their soverign soil forever...

Anyone want to link the original pissing match so I can follow along?

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=7664

Like near the end of the middle.

The problem, as I see it, is that there really is no good way to balkanize the U.S. I've seen it done a couple different ways, and someone always ends up calling shenanigans. I just shrug and don't let myself get worked up over it.

Noted. To both of you.

Rationale: Something along the lines of a NATO like treaty between UCAS and CAS, resonable considering the two countries have more in common than not. This really spooks the Azzies into "securing their border" UCAS comes into it on CAS's side. The other NAN's are freaked (especially Souix), they come in on Azzie's side. CFS is a late commer on the UCAS/CAS side after a pre-emptive move on them by the NANs. Tir Taingire stays neutral, Seattle, in effect becomes it's own city state. It's the american import of euro-wars and Ares laughs all the way to the bank.

In the end, the CAS/UCAS mostly win and get some land. Maybe even re-unify.

The NAN isn't likely to side with the Azzies... like ever. Not only would Pueblo piss itself over losing the CAS support, the rest of the NAN would rather have the UCAS looking at Aztlan than themselves. And the CFS would have to solve several small problems before it could do anything like support a war.

Besides, Aztlan is a superpower with nukes and stealth bombers, submarines, and so on. A war wouldn't happen in a pleasant way.

Not saying it would be pleasent. It's a war, pretty much the definition of un-pleasent.
As for the NAN's supporting the Azzies, they were allied in the past. I was just positing that the Souix would be more concerned with the UCAS (whom they've been having a sort of cold war with) than the Azzies.

Hmm... Now that you mention it it would be more likley that the North American Treaty Organization would spook the Souix into attacking UCAS and the Azzies would just be attacking the CAS while they were preoccupied helping the neighbors to the north. The rest could stay the same though.

It really could fall out any number of ways and still be plausible in light of how wars have started historically.

Given that the PCC thwarted Aztlan's goals of retaking Al Norte by going into L.A. and given the role the PCC and CAS had in ousting the Azzies from Denver I find that war between Aztlan and at the very least the PCC/CAS faction to be HIGHLY likely. There's been a brushfire war going on for awhile now in the SR universe, something has to give. Look for the UCAS to get in on that action and probably Amazonia as well. The rest of NAN never really looked at Aztlan being one of them anyway.

If you want to have reality intrude on the balkanization of North America... The CAS never happens because frankly there is one large ethnic minority down South that just wouldn't "cotton" to that idea. But the balkanization does provide one useful function in that it provides a clear demarcation between fantasy and reality... As if magic and cyberweapons weren't enough...

Depends on what you mean by "war." I've always been of the opinion there are constant small unit actions and skirmishes going on all over North America (and I don't just mean Shadowruns) -- Ghost teams blowing up Sioux stuff too near the border, Wildcats taking out supply convoys too close to Sioux turf, etc, etc. Low-scale conflict, but conflict nonetheless. Constant raids and border scraps between, well, just about everyone.

And don't forget the occasional genuine push/land grab. A lot of those have been very vague in their size descriptions, but what's it take to count as a "war?"

I dunno. It's not hard to imagine the CAS (with possible UCAS support) starting a war to reclaim their national honor - wars are often about this matter.

I always had a hard time imagining Americans just accepting the loss of land and prestige and pride the formation of the NAN meant, shrug, say "geez, we asked for it" and move on and be pals with these nations. I have a very difficult time imagining them to even recognise them as nations (much like mainland China has a dire problem recognising Taiwan actually is a distinct nation), let alone have diplomatic relations with them.

An all-out war between a UCAS/CAS block that feels confident again now and has some major Mojo backing up their nukes, too, and a NAN that's increasingly at each others' throats and thus presents a somewhat weakened target is way overdue. And I'd consider the chances of a reunited Anglo block pretty decent, too - if only because they vastly outnumber the natives and can muster ressources they can only dream of.

And it'd not be unlikely to start - again - with Texas feeling it is too small, and needing to expand it's borders. Besides, the UCAS and CAS have a vast underclass who are unemployed, poor and have little chance of changing this. Nationalist fervor and the spinning of an external enemy have always been the method of choice to keep such tensions from boining over. Just look at China and Russia.

Of course, this won't be as easy a war as the US-Mexican war was. It'd lead to a massive bloodshed on both sides. We'd see death and internment camps springing up again, for sure. It'd be messy and very likely to go nuclear. Possibly, it'd have to be ended Eurowars style by a third party (Imperial Japan? Ghostwalker?).

Sure, it'd be insane, and senseless, and not gain any party involved anything worth the while. But has the prospect of complete devastation ever stopped any nation from restoring it's honor?

Interesting discussion. I really enjoyed reading Crimsondude's reasons in the other thread. They seem well though out and completely rational. In a sane world, what he's stating should happen. Of course, governments don't always act rationally....

Personally, I'd rather see a bloodless merger than a new war.
Maybe it's the fact that I come from both sides of the border so to speak.

Many on both sides are proud of the positive shared heritage between the cultures (like the Windtalkers and their bravery in WWII) but there is a much longer standing air of distrust on teh Native side because of all the treaty violations, bad blood and mishandled goverment programs. Overcomming that will be difficult, to achieve it there needs to be some outside threat looming that could envelop all three nations and not think twice about it. Like Aztlan invading, using blood spirits in the slums to cause devastation, etc. Give them some huge common foe and watch them call on the good parts of a mutual past to band together against the common foe, of course the aftermath there would be a return to the infighting, that is the sad truth of human nature. But you'd have a reunified nation, expanded even with the added Canadian states,
you'd have the potential for runs involving the interim goverment as old guard politial powers consolidate power bases and try and protect themselves from the others.

It'd knock a huge block out of Tir's powerbase, Saito would be up drek-creek without a smartlink and return Aztlan tot he country we love to hate.

Reunification would be a political nightmare even in just terms of paperwork. And which government was going to give up autonomy? What support does idea that it could come about with anything short of a real true war with millions of casualties and conquering come from? Historically, no one gives up their nation freely. Hell, look at the European Union. That's barely an alliance and they're all kicking and screaming. A trans American alliance is far more likely than reunification, but even that has huge obstacles.

Thanks.

For my part I was not seriously envisioning a restored USA. I was just providing a reasonably realistic way that the CAS (Texas) could gain back some of it's land. There are many ways a war could happen.
I just think that if the CAS or UCAS feel threatened in any way they will look around them and say "Who could I live with the easiest?" The answer is each other. That alliance would provoke the other North American countries into being much more agressive and could lead to war. Especially if crap gets as messed up as it seems.
It would be a great shock to me (as well as seem a little unrealistic) to think that the some borders somewhere wouldn't change after all of the system failure/crash stuff.

No shit.

Anyway, if the CAS government would like to have it's populace focus on ogther things than some really stupid shit they did, they'd surely start yelling at Aztlan and calling for getting the rest of Texas back from the Azzies - and might even provide the press with topm secret documents about just what the Azzies do in their teocalli. this should be a very viable reason to go and rescue their Texan brothers, though the prospects of the CAS succeeding aren't too good.

As someone who actually lives in Austin presently (very close to it) I understand Patrick's frustration and pride issue, but a personal agenda does not a good story make. Given the history it makes perfect sense that Mexico...er...Aztlan would try to get Texas back the way they did. And it also makes sense that Texas would now want it back. The seeds were sown hundreds of years ago, and I imagine some of that bitterness will never go away, but I think the current state of things makes for an awesome Shadowrun setting in Austin.

That's where I have my current group of runners now, while all my other games used to be in Seattle. I feel a much closer bond to my new game because I am familiar with the area. Yeah, some of my players were a little pissed when I explained to them how south Austin is now in Aztlan hands, but this provides so many places to go with various storylines. I loved the idea and instituted that the city would be split up by its own natural border, the Colorado River.

Still, I do feel that pride tugging at my heartstrings to think that half of Texas now belongs to its old enemy. But honestly, I find the story aspects it provides to be much more interesting and logical. Why would Texas now invade Aztlan? I don't know, but I would guess that an underground/terrorist type war had been happening in the former southern Texas for a while now, ever since Aztlan invaded, especially in San Antonio. Some of you may perceive that Texas=Anglos and South Texas=Mexicans (Aztlaners) but honestly, the races are a lot more mixed down here, and I see a lot of Texan hispanics staying in Aztlan territory because they love the place and couldn't make it out, therefore starting an underground war. Perhaps this war has been fueled by CAS, or more specifically, Texas resources, and while Aztlan has been slowly pulling resources from Texas to apply them to the Yucatan it makes perfect sense that the north Texans are itching to get the former south Texas back. But would that be enough? I think not.

It would take something big, really big, and really bad that Aztlan have to do to make a war official. Something like launching a major counterstrike to the former Texan terrorists and it getting really, really bloody and brutal. I'd say something akin to concentration camps, that kind of atrocity might spur on some action, or maybe Aztlan kicks off some majorly nasty, nasty magic in the former south Texas as a testbed for tactics in the Yucatan or as a perceived new military tactic to be possibly used against the rest of the NA, or even world, and all the adjacent countries freak and want to know everything they can about it. So Texas and the rest of NA reach an agreement to invade the former south Texas to get it back. Texas gets its land back, and the rest of NA head off a major magical threat. Honestly, if Aztlan was faced with multiple armies from various countries the fight wouldn't last long. Or maybe when stared down with such a massive military force Aztlan would just eventually walk away willingly, but no doubt leaving behind some nice "present" to be discoverd when south Texas was reclaimed.

Could it make sense? Yes, I think it could. But honestly, I'd rather it didn't happen, but that's only because of a personal reason of mine, because I love the new Austin setting I've created. If someone could tell me how to post a spoiler type link I'd be happy to lay down the history I've written for Austin since the early 21st.

Just to throw a bucket of gasoline on the fire, don't forget about the "New Revolution" from Threats 2.

I'm not going to comment on or refute every idea. Frankly, it takes me too long and I can't spend all day on DS like I have been able to before.

However, I will leave you with some things to consider about how to go about trying to shift the borders around.

What would any country gain from an alliance, if that is your goal? Would it override the political costs, given that every country in NA pretty much hates the others. Who would be willing to expend the political capital to do so, according to canon? Who would gain from the alliance? Who would lose? Who would benefit the most from seeing the alliance fail? What means do the supporters have at their disposal to influence a) the other country (countries), b) their own political party/power base, c) their nation's public.

As far an invasion and land-grab go, there are several questions. What is the political structure of the aggressor government? What is the economic/socio-political status of the country? What is the country's relations with a hostile or neutral or friendly nation? What, if any, social/political/economic/other upheavals are they experiencing? Why would an invasion be justified? How would an invasion be justified? How would an invasion serve to alleviate or distract from that problem? Who would be leading the call for invasion? What kind of political capital can they muster? Who is their opposition? How much political capital can they muster? What is the position of the military? What are the military capabilities of the two+ nations? What are the worst-case scenarios for military action? What is the likelihood for escalation? What is your occupation strategy? What is your long-term settlement strategy? How will you enforce a military government of the occupied territories (to use an American WW2 term)--specifically, what do you do with a) POWs; b) civilians; c) insurgents; d) infrastructure; e) law & order; f) government; g) money; h) the economy; i) the security of the new border; j) relations with all of your original + occupied territory neighbor nations; k) relations with corporate, and specifically megacorp activity; l) possible retaliation; m) language issues; n) OT power sites and resources; o) magical, technological, and physical effects on the battlefields; p) domestic and international media; q) Machiavelli's six rules for conquest from The Prince (Some of which have been mentioned, but specifically whether you will colonize your newly conquered territory).

Think about those, because the characters actually conducting these political activities will have to consider at least these things before they do anything as drastic as this. Then we'll talk.