Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: New border in SR4
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Pthgar
The alliance is not the goal, it is the result of tensions and political maneuvers of some countries trying to gain an advantage over others.

Your post makes sense, but the thing is there are so many variables in international relations that a work of fiction cannot account for them all (heck, most historians an poli sci people can't do it). In the end, wars happen. Some times in spite of all the reasons you posted or because of them. If the situation is volitile enough alliances can be made or broken with both friendlies and enemies. N.A. in SR is certainly volitile. Look at Europe during the 100 Years War (or nearly any other time for that matter). Empires may not seem practical to us but they are built, nonetheless.

It is very easy to argue that wars are irrational and impractical unless there is a single specific cause, but that is not the record of history. Wars are waged for many reasons. But to give you a clear example I will use economics. Many Countries will suffer greatly in a crash and the leaders of those countries may try to do a resource grab to make up for it. Alternately, a long standing hostile country may decide to take advantage of the weaknesses of the country devastated by the crash.

And before you so easily dismiss us, consider that we may have taken into account all of your items but don't care to type them out any more than you wanted to respond to all our scenarios.
shadow_scholar
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Just to make sure--You do know that this is the border in Austin in Shadows of North America, right? That's why I suggested that the DMZ peace bridge is a more appropriate analogy to Austin than the Berlin Wall (well, one of many, actually).

Nope, I wasn't aware. Haven't read that book. Makes perfect sense, though. Enough sense that I came to the same conclusion. How much info did they put into Austin in that book? I know in the old Neo-As Guide to N America they barely touched on it, but gave Dallas a detailed section.
hermit
Pthgar, whom are you referring to? CD?

Anyway. Yes, alliances do happen, and yes, they can happen. But not between nations diametrically opposed. Can you imagine that, at the height of the Cold War, the US and the USSR would team up against anyone? Really? The NAN and the Anglo states are about as close as US and USSR were at that time. Granted, the PCC is opportunistic and might form an alliance of opportunity with either nation, but the result would be coordinated military action, like the Hitler-Stalin pact to carve up Poland - remember what Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia did only three years afterwards.

My point is that, while an "Anglo Alliance*" seems feasible, it'd end only in forcing the NAN back together. The memories of Jarman's hloocaust are still alive, and I would guess the mere hit of a rise of a new US would make alarm bells ring very loudly with all non-Anglo nations.

Additionally, Europe during the 100 years war and NA in Shadowrun aren't comparable. Most countries in North America are at least somewhat democratic, meaning the leaders have to take public opinion into account. And maintaining an alliance with a nation the own populace loathes is tricky, as can be seen with the "alliance of the willing" right now. A possible pan-American alliance againmst Aztlan would be ill-fated, and would fall apart with the defeat of Aztlan, if not before.

Also, doesn't Aztlan have a decent secret service? If so, they'd propably go out of their way to engineer incidents of friendly fire that would cause public outrage and strife within the alliance (the Sgrena shooting comes to mind).

Conclusion:
A war between CAS, possibly PCC, and Aztlan - possible. The outcome being that Texas gains back it's old strength and American SR players from Texas are happy - douptful, but possible.
A pan-Aanglo alliance (UCAS + CAS, possibly add Quebec) against Aztlan? Possible, though not likely.
A pan-American alliance of UCAS, CAS, NAN and Quebec against Aztlan? Highly unlikely, even impossible.

*for convenience, "Anglo" includes American Blacks as well as Asians
CanvasBack
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
QUOTE (CanvasBack @ Mar 16 2005, 12:16 PM)
The powers that be in Aztlan/Aztechnology may decide that the events in Denver demand retribution and a reclamation of territory including all of California, parts of Nevada, Utah, the rest of Arizona, New Mexico, all of Colorado, the rest of Texas, probably Oklahoma, and  maybe even New Orleans.  They may justify it to themselves as putting back together the lands stolen from them during the Spanish Colonial and later the Mexican era by the colonial powers of old and the young U.S.A.

Just to be complete, to restore Spanish Mexico they'd have to invade CAS, PCC, CFS, Ute, Denver, S-SC, Sioux, and TT.

Good luck!

Well dude, given that in Europe and the Middle East of the Shadowrun future, a New Islamic Jihad went straight through the Balkans to threaten Vienna and a Hapsburg happened to come out of the woodwork at just the right time to form an alliance based on centuries old and disused feudal alliances in order to repulse them, only to fade back into obscurity and disorganization once the danger cleared, you find that the type of thing we're talking about in North America inconceivable? It's all well and good to sit back and armchair quarterback what is reasonable and rational in a fictional setting but... The fact is anything is up for grabs since the groundwork has been laid IMHO for border tensions to escalate into all out war. At the minimum, the CAS and PCC seem to be working together, at least in Denver. And a new Pan-American Empire with Aztlan/Aztechnology in control may be irrational, but irrational things have happened in world history before...

For Hermit, I don't think anybody said anything about Quebec being in the mix, though they might profit through supplementary arms sales to both sides via CatCO.

Anyway, status quo is possible as well as outright war. The Matrix going down might even provide "cover" for such an invasion for whomever initiates hostilities. But I reiterate, anything is possible.
mfb
the NIJ wasn't fighting a stalemate battle on one front, and already seriously threatened on the other. i don't see it happening.
hermit
Furthermore, the situation in Europe - fter 80 years of NATO and 70 years of EU - is notably different than the situation in America. NOONE in America is willing to get along with the others. It's too much bad blood. A bit like Europe after WW2, only without nthe US and USSR breathing down their necks and forcing at least the West to get along and settle old problems.

There is no power to force the American nations together. And Aztlan, fearsome as it may be, is only a middle power itself, and bogged down already with a nasty uprising on it's own turf and the CAS and PCC border standoff. Hey, look at how Iraq is bogging down the US, and it has much, much larger ressources than Aztlan can ever dream to muster.

In short, Canvasback, your theory is highly unlikely.

And please don't mention the Habsburg angle. That's part of the DidS 1 stupidity. It was bad writing, nothing else.

I am sure the authors of SR4 can do better than that. smile.gif
jklst14
While North American reunification is unlikely in 2064, 2070 is a completely different story.

The System Failure that will be detailed in future sourcebooks has the potential to be an extraordinarily catastrophic event on the same order of magnitude as the Crash of 2029 or the real world Great Depression. Perhaps the crash of Matrix 1.0 will particularly devastate the Pueblo Corporate Council, leading to an Aztlaner invasion of Pueblo and the CAS. Or maybe everyone will be equally screwed. What effect will this System Failure have on elections? Doesn't the UCAS have one due in November of 2064?

If the game designers want to reunite the UCAS and CAS, I have an idea. Simply have both governments collapse amidst the anarchy following the System Failure. Have major Night of Rage style riots grip the whole continent for a year or two. And out of the chaos, the individual states will climb out of the mess and form a new country built on the bones of the old UCAS and CAS. New constitution. New flag. Maybe even a new capitol.

Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (shadow_scholar @ Mar 16 2005, 03:07 PM)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Mar 16 2005, 04:29 PM)
Just to make sure--You do know that this is the border in Austin in Shadows of North America, right? That's why I suggested that the DMZ peace bridge is a more appropriate analogy to Austin than the Berlin Wall (well, one of many, actually).

Nope, I wasn't aware. Haven't read that book. Makes perfect sense, though. Enough sense that I came to the same conclusion. How much info did they put into Austin in that book? I know in the old Neo-As Guide to N America they barely touched on it, but gave Dallas a detailed section.

Nothing, really. Divided city along the Colorado. The I-35 bridge is the "checkpoint charlie" of Austin. Home of Lone Star.

I kept overlooking the effect this could have on PCC, which like you said, could be significant.
Pthgar
QUOTE (hermit)
Pthgar, whom are you referring to? CD?

Yes.

All I am saying is that when things change, in an environment already tense and on edge, a war is much more likley. After a war, borders are often changed and alliances are created/destroyed.

The specifics of who attacks whom and where the new lines in the sand are, are just speculation from me. I have no particular feeling for one scenario or another. It just makes sense that this "event" would cause open hostilities to break out in some way.
Fortune
QUOTE (shadow_scholar)
If someone could tell me how to post a spoiler type link I'd be happy to lay down the history I've written for Austin since the early 21st.

I, for one. would love to see what you've come up with for Austin.

Spoilers are done as follows ...

CODE
[spoiler]Stuff that spoils![/spoiler]


Which gives you ...

[ Spoiler ]
shadow_scholar
Thanx for the tip, Fortune.

Now I'm sure the timeline isn't perfect, but it was something I threw together from various sources to benefit my players as I had a couple of new ones to Shadowrun. Most of the stuff in the beginning loosely pertains to how Austin was affected. The new information I created for Austin came into play at 2021. I also took a big liberty with the year 2047 where commerce begins again between the CAS and Aztlan. I seem to recall reading something about that, but I just pulled the year from nowhere. I'm not even sure if the CAS and Aztlan are even willing to trade with each other according to canon.

So if you're interested, here's my timeline for the City of Austin. It's kinda long, too.

[ Spoiler ]
CanvasBack
QUOTE (hermit)
Furthermore, the situation in Europe - fter 80 years of NATO and 70 years of EU - is notably different than the situation in America. NOONE in America is willing to get along with the others. It's too much bad blood. A bit like Europe after WW2, only without nthe US and USSR breathing down their necks and forcing at least the West to get along and settle old problems.

There is no power to force the American nations together. And Aztlan, fearsome as it may be, is only a middle power itself, and bogged down already with a nasty uprising on it's own turf and the CAS and PCC border standoff. Hey, look at how Iraq is bogging down the US, and it has much, much larger ressources than Aztlan can ever dream to muster.

In short, Canvasback, your theory is highly unlikely.

And please don't mention the Habsburg angle. That's part of the DidS 1 stupidity. It was bad writing, nothing else.

I am sure the authors of SR4 can do better than that. smile.gif

No one in North America has the ability to work together and yet mysteriously the PCC and CAS tag teamed Aztlan out of Denver, presumably at the behest of Ghostwalker, but none the less they did cooperate and the others on Denver's council got behind the new status quo. Kinda looks like the NAN is willing to cooperate with traditional rival/enemies, at least under duress...

The whole reason CAS exists is the same reason the whole NIJ/Hapsburg reborn exists, a notion of historic cycles and history repeating itself embraced by the authors. And yes , that is lazy writing but it could be explained away if you embrace IEs, the Way of the Righ, and the effects of magic on the world... Not my bag but hey...

I personally got the impression from Target:Wasteland that the Azzies were just going to give up on Yucatan and either light it up like a tac-nuke Christmas Tree or deliver enough chemical and/or biological agents to the area to net the same effect. AFter which, they would cordon off the area just like the SOX in Europe. Hey, that would involve the genocide of an indigenous group, maybe NAN wouldn't stand for that...

As likely or unlikely as a war betwen Aztlan and some or all of the rest of the North American nations may be it's at least plausible enough for both sides to be worried about it. World War I is the classic example of a war nobody planned for or thought was likely but it happened none the less...

People have bad ideas and don't learn from history, why should Aztlan/Aztechnology in particular learn from other's mistakes? Aside from the Yucatan and more recently Denver, things had been going their way.

And what makes you think they purged all the authors from SR3 to create SR4? That would be somewhat silly, wouldn't it? wobble.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Pthgar)
Your post makes sense, but the thing is there are so many variables in international relations that a work of fiction cannot account for them all (heck, most historians an poli sci people can't do it). In the end, wars happen.

Yes, I know.

My questions weren't directed at the characters. They're directed at YOU.

After all, they may be willing to invade willy-nilly, but once they're in, they're in, and someone--the authors, natch--will have to address these very issues in order for it not to be considered another lame plot in SR's history.
Pthgar
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
My questions weren't directed at the characters. They're directed at YOU.

Fair enough.

ME: Pick your poison. I've offered up a few reason for an invasion (economics, ideology, old history) that have been enough of a cause in real world history. The results of that invasion could be that the invaders are pushed back, the invaders occupy and institute a repressive regime, borders shift a little, or many other things.

DEVELOPERS: I reject that the authors have to create a 100% ironclad logic with all the possible repurcussions and motives thought out and written into the characters for a war to happen. This is fiction, I susspend my disbelief. They only have to give me a reasonbly plausable scenario.

IN GAME: I don't know how you feel about the whole General Saito thing but it shows that the developers are willing to do this kind of thing. Heck, Aztlan already moved in and grabbed land in CFS when they thought it was weak. There is a precident. Just (as CanvasBack pointed out with CAS and PCC) there is a precident for N.A. countries to allie when it is in thier best interest.

I'm not exactly sure what your objection to the idea that with all the changes the new edition will bring, with the crash of the matrix, and with the jump of 5 years that a war couldn't happen. Perhaps, if you told me exactly what it is you object to, I could think about it. I'm open to changing my mind, convince me.
hermit
QUOTE
There is a precident. Just (as CanvasBack pointed out with CAS and PCC) there is a precident for N.A. countries to allie when it is in thier best interest.

Well, for some, in an alliance of opportunity. But that's a long shot from American Restoration.
Pthgar
QUOTE (hermit)
QUOTE
There is a precident. Just (as CanvasBack pointed out with CAS and PCC) there is a precident for N.A. countries to allie when it is in thier best interest.

Well, for some, in an alliance of opportunity. But that's a long shot from American Restoration.

Not saying a restoration will happen. Just saying a war and alliances are possible.
Kanada Ten
The CAS and PCC have been allies for a long time in canon and share a large ex-Mexican population. They have much more in common to begin with, but niether of them is taking about merger or anything remotely close. No other nations have the same bond: the CAS and UCAS still have border conflicts! They don't even share intelligence! If Aztlan invaded the south and neither the CAS or PCC could drive them back, then the UCAS might help out, but they'll want repreations after the war, not merger unless the South was devestated and some out pouring of uncharacteristic sympathy from the public made it plausable to form a protectorate.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (shadow_scholar)
So if you're interested, here's my timeline for the City of Austin. It's kinda long, too.

Badass.
CanvasBack
QUOTE (Pthgar)
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 17 2005, 01:17 PM)
QUOTE
There is a precident. Just (as CanvasBack pointed out with CAS and PCC) there is a precident for N.A. countries to allie when it is in thier best interest.

Well, for some, in an alliance of opportunity. But that's a long shot from American Restoration.

Not saying a restoration will happen. Just saying a war and alliances are possible.

Exactly. I don't know that anyone advocated that all of NA was going to be put back together in the five year interlude. But re-unification is a goal that's floating around out there in canon, by various organizations on both sides of the CAS/UCAS divide. The five year interlude defintiely isn't enough time to accomplish anything like that. On the other hand, if the True American Party from CAS continues to make headway... Who knows?

The UCAS has huge problems of its own, not the least of which is the festering hive that was Chicago. As for CAS/UCAS border conflicts... I look at that mostly as Hatfield and McCoy type stuff rather than sanctioned government policy. But then I've always said that they handled Northern Virginia all wrong. After all the years of big government in DC and the countless civilian Federal workers maintaining the bureaucracy required, that area is basically dominated by Fed-loyal type of people. To the consternation of some traditional Virginians I'm sure, but the little sliver of Northern Virginia that UCAS ends up with ought to have been much larger...

Considering both countries have basically the remnants of the two-major parties operating in them along with the newer ones, I wouldn't think that a political understanding might not have been reached years ago... And if I'm not mistaken, the CDC, while based in Atlanta, actually is funded by both governments to promote the common good, at least in terms of health in North America.

And the people might go for it, simply on the basis that it has the potential at least, to keep the AAA mega-corps in line. The balkanization of North America works to the megas' advantage most of all, and clearly that has hurt the average person in the SR universe.
Kanada Ten
I thought the CDC was an independent corp now, with only headquarters in Atlanta, funded on a case by case basis, not by a nation's general fund. But that's not exactly relevant.

QUOTE
And the people might go for it, simply on the basis that it has the potential at least, to keep the AAA mega-corps in line. The balkanization of North America works to the megas' advantage most of all, and clearly that has hurt the average person in the SR universe.

How so? Megacorps saved the world economies, rebuilt cities, saved nations from dissolving into anarchy, protect their workers, and pretty much run all the privatized services saving cities millons. And who will have the better marketing ads for reunification? Those with the megas or those against?
hermit
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
QUOTE (shadow_scholar @ Mar 16 2005, 07:18 PM)
So if you're interested, here's my timeline for the City of Austin.  It's kinda long, too.

Badass.

I agree. Any plans to make an online source book out of it? That'd surely be great ... the timeline sounded awesome. I'd love to see some of your locations, city plots, and other things you made up for the city.
CanvasBack
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
How so? Megacorps saved the world economies, rebuilt cities, saved nations from dissolving into anarchy, protect their workers, and pretty much run all the privatized services saving cities millons. And who will have the better marketing ads for reunification? Those with the megas or those against?

Saved the world economies or re-engineered them to directly benefit themselves?

I don't even think that the megas should be considered solid allies of one another in this regard either, considering their varying relationships with national governments. Ares cultivates a tight relationship with the UCAS and Aztechnology pretty much OWNS Aztlan lock stock and barrel, CatCO follows the Ares mode except for Quebec... The Japanacorps are falling all over themselves to adapt to the changes or stem the tide of change that the New Emperor is seeking.... Saeder-Krup does as Lofwyr pleases it seems. UCAS/CAS unification might be very good for Ares and possibly Novatech, and neutral or bad for everyone else and intolerable to Aztechnology. Many, many, many opportunities for shadow-ops... Which, is part of the reason why I would enjoy advancing that plot-line, whether or not it ultimately succeeds.

Hell, it could start another Corp War...


I think that if you take the attitude that the Megacorps saved the world economies than you have to grant that for the common man to see it that way, he would have to be employed by a Mega. It seems to me those people climbing the the corporate ladder at a AA or a AAA are in the extreme minority, and as such, other folks that are lucky enough to still be in the workforce are working for depressed wages and low benefits. After all, most of the employees of the big boys are earning corp script and spending at the company store. That represents a fundamental disconnect from the rest of a national economy and part of the reason that Megas can keep their costs down... Loyalty to the corporate system, sure, from within. Outside of it, not really. Rampant unemployment and a "Barrens" in every major metropolitan city just underscores the disparities the mega-corps have created. It's probably good for the game that resistance to Megacorporate policies fail, it keeps the game in line with a dark edge. But that doesn't mean the struggle doesn't exist.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Mar 17 2005, 12:55 PM)
I thought the CDC was an independent corp now, with only headquarters in Atlanta, funded on a case by case basis, not by a nation's general fund.  But that's not exactly relevant.

No, CDC is run by the governments. WHO is the corporate whore.
Euchrid
I'm curious about something - do you guys all play your games in your home states? I'm Australian, and I hate what the ShadowRun timeline has done to Australia (Not to mention the condescending "g'day mate" way that Target:Awakened Lands is written), but the solution is real simple - we don't go to Australia.

Of course, I understand that Australia is a pretty small part of the Shadowrun world, while CalFree and the UCAS are much more important locations, but surely you can work around it.

And if you really hate it, fix it. Have your runners start a chain of events that lead to the map being redrawn the way that you like it. FanPro aren't going to come into your house and force you to play their timeline.
Kanada Ten
Euchrid, you may want to look at this thread.
Wireknight
Fortunately, I happen to live in Pennsylvania. No one comes here, and little of global importance happens here, now. It's quite plausible to assume the same is true in the Shadowrun era.

"Um, well, the Amish are now Awakened. They're all adepts, and they can build barns in twenty minutes. Let's never speak of sixth world Pennsylvania again."
Aristotle
QUOTE (Wireknight)
Let's never speak of sixth world Pennsylvania again."

LOL... I've been thinking of doing a spoof "Shadows of.." for Hanover, PA (my hometown and where I continue to run games). After the initial brainstorm I came to pretty much the same conclusion.
Euchrid
QUOTE
Euchrid, you may want to look at this thread.


Ah, excellent. Thank you very much.
Penta
QUOTE (Aristotle)
QUOTE (Wireknight @ Mar 17 2005, 10:23 PM)
Let's never speak of sixth world Pennsylvania again."

LOL... I've been thinking of doing a spoof "Shadows of.." for Hanover, PA (my hometown and where I continue to run games). After the initial brainstorm I came to pretty much the same conclusion.

<twitch>

An image, if you will.

Shadows of Scranton.
Tal
QUOTE (Euchrid)
I'm curious about something - do you guys all play your games in your home states? I'm Australian, and I hate what the ShadowRun timeline has done to Australia (Not to mention the condescending "g'day mate" way that Target:Awakened Lands is written), but the solution is real simple - we don't go to Australia.

Of course, I understand that Australia is a pretty small part of the Shadowrun world, while CalFree and the UCAS are much more important locations, but surely you can work around it.

And if you really hate it, fix it. Have your runners start a chain of events that lead to the map being redrawn the way that you like it. FanPro aren't going to come into your house and force you to play their timeline.

I live in Australia too, and I agree. Awakened Australia is... wierd. It seems like a kind of SR Valhalla, where only the meanest, leanest runners can survive.
hermit
QUOTE
I'm Australian, and I hate what the ShadowRun timeline has done to Australia

Well, you're still better off than I am. Ever read the Germany sourcebook? Worst thing ever publiched with the shadowrun logo on it. Needless to say, we usually play in Seatttle. Though we do make the occasional trip over the pond, and my one character actually was concepted as being brought up bilingual German/English.

QUOTE
"Um, well, the Amish are now Awakened. They're all adepts, and they can build barns in twenty minutes. Let's never speak of sixth world Pennsylvania again."

Actually ... you know, With God/Jesus/Holy Spirit as a totem or idol, they could be pretty powerful mages. They could also sustain a field to mind-control all who come in to behave according to their ideals, or something. After all, SR favours spiritual people over secular when it comes to magic (why the former US isn't teeming with evangelical christian "shamans" is beyond me, though).
mfb
they're all walled up in the anglo reservations in NAN territory.
Penta
That could make sense.

Personally, what a lot of the location books illustrate to me is what a bad idea it is to have locals writing them.

In the other thread linked about people's hometowns, one can smell how much a book on an area would be used to indulge personal fantasies or otherwise grind axes. (Observe how the Jersey Shore gets treated. ARCOLOGIES? ARCOLOGIES? mad.gif)

Locals bring interesting thoughts re the terrain, but outsiders should really write the "events" side, IMHO. Locals tend to turn their places into either blatantly-political fantasies, shiny happy stupidity, or "We suck more than you do!" one-ups-manship.
hermit
QUOTE
Personally, what a lot of the location books illustrate to me is what a bad idea it is to have locals writing them.

Generally, people who write abot a place should know a lot about it, and think realistically. Berlin in the Germany SB (which still pisses me off like few things concerning SR) was written by locals. However, if someone in a country far away who has never set foot into Berlin wrote about it (and gives all chararcters odd names, like "Haesslich" and such), that's not precisely better.

Bottom line: books should be written by skilled and informed people.
shadow_scholar
QUOTE (hermit)
I agree. Any plans to make an online source book out of it? That'd surely be great ... the timeline sounded awesome. I'd love to see some of your locations, city plots, and other things you made up for the city.

I hadn't really thought that deeply about it. I do want to take a closer look at the various places of special interest I could incorporate and write up some current state of affairs for them. I've already created a basic map for the new Austin, but I haven't even touched the Aztlan portion, yet. I'd love to undertake such a task as an online sourcebook, but I have no clue about how to post such a thing. I don't know how to build webpages, or even where to host. But who knows. No matter what, though, I'm gonna keep writing. Maybe soon I'll have enough stuff created to be able to put together a crude reference file based on the old Neo-A's Guide style of presentation. But if I do devote a whole lot of time to creating a split Austin, I'd hate to have it all be rendered moot because Texas gets its southern portion back. Either that of I could just not play SR4 if they do change it.

And Penta, I can agree with what you're saying. Sometimes writers can take too much pride in their home area, but it's a tradeoff for the local flavor you're going to get from someone who actually lives there currently. You just have to hope that the writer will have their head screwed on straight enough to make the place interesting, but not go too far and make it cheesy.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (hermit)
Bottom line: books should be written by skilled and informed people.

Amen, and 1 out of 2 don't cut it IMO.

Research goes a long way, though.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (Neuron Basher)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 15 2005, 11:13 PM)
It basically portrays my home state (and in particular my home city of LA) as a mix of half-aware hippies and yuppies with their heads so far up their own anuses ...

You mean they aren't? eek.gif

I couldn't help myself. Bad Neuron Basher, bad bad. embarrassed.gif

No, no, I live there and you were right the first time rotfl.gif
MagicalGirlPrettyMatt
For those who care, there's a really good link here to some information on the demographics of North America, and an interesting balkanized map it draws for the 21st Century. If I were to have made Shadowrun (and we're probably all better off that I didn't, but that's another matter), this is what I would have based it off of. It would simply take me too long to explain and relay all the information at this link, so I've decided to just go directly to the source. In another area of the site, there's another discussion of so-called "Edge Cities" like Silicon Valley, and the new commerce centers of North America.
Crimsondude 2.0
The idea of MexAmerica is laughable. Too many people hate each other to ever form any sort of cohesive political agenda or organization. I like how he dismisses the self-identification of "Spanish" in New Mexico as snobbery. Snobbery is one thing, but a lot of people are just friggin' racist against Mexicans.
frostPDP
Well, border-redrawing is one of the funnier conversations I've watched. I'm a New Yorker, and one of our players/GM drew up secnerios for New York which came very close to what was written up by the bigwigs. Just ironic I suppose; but as screwed as NY and the US get, we don't really mind much. Its a fantasy world.

At the absolute worst, if you want to stick to canon, you can have your players/teammates undertake a large campain to force war against Atzlan and take it back. Your runner team can just go on random kill-all-enemies missions against Atzlan bases and boom, perhaps the CAS will take interest. A GM could well make the re-conquest of Texas (or more!) the focal point of everything.

So really, the borders can be as much an issue for pride as anything. But you should never act out of pride; I think the US is split up fairly nicely. The United States of today has marginal interest in the mid-west area, due to sparse population, etc. If that's all the NAN wanted, they might well let go provided they still get the western parts of California. The CAS sceeding? Well, I'm sure we've all seen those pictures of "Jesusland." Seriously though, much of the south hasn't even been integrated for 50 years; that's a cultural difference of titanic proportion. Hell, the CAS didn't even leave with that much animosity behind it - The scession was relatively peaceful. Its very possible that the two would team up and just retain seperate political structures, provided Atzlan made a number of expansionist moves (or it was discovered their Blood Magic was bringing back "The Enemy.") toward conquering the rest of NA.

Also remember that a divided target like Atzlan is incredibly suspect to attack. Anyway I've rambled on enough, have fun tearing me smile.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012