Pthgar
Mar 16 2005, 09:29 PM
The alliance is not the goal, it is the result of tensions and political maneuvers of some countries trying to gain an advantage over others.
Your post makes sense, but the thing is there are so many variables in international relations that a work of fiction cannot account for them all (heck, most historians an poli sci people can't do it). In the end, wars happen. Some times in spite of all the reasons you posted or because of them. If the situation is volitile enough alliances can be made or broken with both friendlies and enemies. N.A. in SR is certainly volitile. Look at Europe during the 100 Years War (or nearly any other time for that matter). Empires may not seem practical to us but they are built, nonetheless.
It is very easy to argue that wars are irrational and impractical unless there is a single specific cause, but that is not the record of history. Wars are waged for many reasons. But to give you a clear example I will use economics. Many Countries will suffer greatly in a crash and the leaders of those countries may try to do a resource grab to make up for it. Alternately, a long standing hostile country may decide to take advantage of the weaknesses of the country devastated by the crash.
And before you so easily dismiss us, consider that we may have taken into account all of your items but don't care to type them out any more than you wanted to respond to all our scenarios.
shadow_scholar
Mar 16 2005, 10:07 PM
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
Just to make sure--You do know that this is the border in Austin in Shadows of North America, right? That's why I suggested that the DMZ peace bridge is a more appropriate analogy to Austin than the Berlin Wall (well, one of many, actually). |
Nope, I wasn't aware. Haven't read that book. Makes perfect sense, though. Enough sense that I came to the same conclusion. How much info did they put into Austin in that book? I know in the old Neo-As Guide to N America they barely touched on it, but gave Dallas a detailed section.
hermit
Mar 16 2005, 10:25 PM
Pthgar, whom are you referring to? CD?
Anyway. Yes, alliances do happen, and yes, they can happen. But not between nations diametrically opposed. Can you imagine that, at the height of the Cold War, the US and the USSR would team up against anyone? Really? The NAN and the Anglo states are about as close as US and USSR were at that time. Granted, the PCC is opportunistic and might form an alliance of opportunity with either nation, but the result would be coordinated military action, like the Hitler-Stalin pact to carve up Poland - remember what Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia did only three years afterwards.
My point is that, while an "Anglo Alliance*" seems feasible, it'd end only in forcing the NAN back together. The memories of Jarman's hloocaust are still alive, and I would guess the mere hit of a rise of a new US would make alarm bells ring very loudly with all non-Anglo nations.
Additionally, Europe during the 100 years war and NA in Shadowrun aren't comparable. Most countries in North America are at least somewhat democratic, meaning the leaders have to take public opinion into account. And maintaining an alliance with a nation the own populace loathes is tricky, as can be seen with the "alliance of the willing" right now. A possible pan-American alliance againmst Aztlan would be ill-fated, and would fall apart with the defeat of Aztlan, if not before.
Also, doesn't Aztlan have a decent secret service? If so, they'd propably go out of their way to engineer incidents of friendly fire that would cause public outrage and strife within the alliance (the Sgrena shooting comes to mind).
Conclusion:
A war between CAS, possibly PCC, and Aztlan - possible. The outcome being that Texas gains back it's old strength and American SR players from Texas are happy - douptful, but possible.
A pan-Aanglo alliance (UCAS + CAS, possibly add Quebec) against Aztlan? Possible, though not likely.
A pan-American alliance of UCAS, CAS, NAN and Quebec against Aztlan? Highly unlikely, even impossible.
*for convenience, "Anglo" includes American Blacks as well as Asians
CanvasBack
Mar 16 2005, 10:59 PM
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
QUOTE (CanvasBack @ Mar 16 2005, 12:16 PM) | The powers that be in Aztlan/Aztechnology may decide that the events in Denver demand retribution and a reclamation of territory including all of California, parts of Nevada, Utah, the rest of Arizona, New Mexico, all of Colorado, the rest of Texas, probably Oklahoma, and maybe even New Orleans. They may justify it to themselves as putting back together the lands stolen from them during the Spanish Colonial and later the Mexican era by the colonial powers of old and the young U.S.A. |
Just to be complete, to restore Spanish Mexico they'd have to invade CAS, PCC, CFS, Ute, Denver, S-SC, Sioux, and TT.
Good luck!
|
Well dude, given that in Europe and the Middle East of the Shadowrun future, a New Islamic Jihad went straight through the Balkans to threaten Vienna and a Hapsburg happened to come out of the woodwork at just the right time to form an alliance based on centuries old and disused feudal alliances in order to repulse them, only to fade back into obscurity and disorganization once the danger cleared, you find that the type of thing we're talking about in North America inconceivable? It's all well and good to sit back and armchair quarterback what is reasonable and rational in a fictional setting but... The fact is anything is up for grabs since the groundwork has been laid IMHO for border tensions to escalate into all out war. At the minimum, the CAS and PCC seem to be working together, at least in Denver. And a new Pan-American Empire with Aztlan/Aztechnology in control may be irrational, but irrational things have happened in world history before...
For Hermit, I don't think anybody said anything about Quebec being in the mix, though they might profit through supplementary arms sales to both sides via CatCO.
Anyway, status quo is possible as well as outright war. The Matrix going down might even provide "cover" for such an invasion for whomever initiates hostilities. But I reiterate, anything is possible.
mfb
Mar 16 2005, 11:15 PM
the NIJ wasn't fighting a stalemate battle on one front, and already seriously threatened on the other. i don't see it happening.
hermit
Mar 16 2005, 11:30 PM
Furthermore, the situation in Europe - fter 80 years of NATO and 70 years of EU - is notably different than the situation in America. NOONE in America is willing to get along with the others. It's too much bad blood. A bit like Europe after WW2, only without nthe US and USSR breathing down their necks and forcing at least the West to get along and settle old problems.
There is no power to force the American nations together. And Aztlan, fearsome as it may be, is only a middle power itself, and bogged down already with a nasty uprising on it's own turf and the CAS and PCC border standoff. Hey, look at how Iraq is bogging down the US, and it has much, much larger ressources than Aztlan can ever dream to muster.
In short, Canvasback, your theory is highly unlikely.
And please don't mention the Habsburg angle. That's part of the DidS 1 stupidity. It was bad writing, nothing else.
I am sure the authors of SR4 can do better than that.
jklst14
Mar 17 2005, 12:12 AM
While North American reunification is unlikely in 2064, 2070 is a completely different story.
The System Failure that will be detailed in future sourcebooks has the potential to be an extraordinarily catastrophic event on the same order of magnitude as the Crash of 2029 or the real world Great Depression. Perhaps the crash of Matrix 1.0 will particularly devastate the Pueblo Corporate Council, leading to an Aztlaner invasion of Pueblo and the CAS. Or maybe everyone will be equally screwed. What effect will this System Failure have on elections? Doesn't the UCAS have one due in November of 2064?
If the game designers want to reunite the UCAS and CAS, I have an idea. Simply have both governments collapse amidst the anarchy following the System Failure. Have major Night of Rage style riots grip the whole continent for a year or two. And out of the chaos, the individual states will climb out of the mess and form a new country built on the bones of the old UCAS and CAS. New constitution. New flag. Maybe even a new capitol.
Crimsondude 2.0
Mar 17 2005, 12:22 AM
QUOTE (shadow_scholar @ Mar 16 2005, 03:07 PM) |
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Mar 16 2005, 04:29 PM) | Just to make sure--You do know that this is the border in Austin in Shadows of North America, right? That's why I suggested that the DMZ peace bridge is a more appropriate analogy to Austin than the Berlin Wall (well, one of many, actually). |
Nope, I wasn't aware. Haven't read that book. Makes perfect sense, though. Enough sense that I came to the same conclusion. How much info did they put into Austin in that book? I know in the old Neo-As Guide to N America they barely touched on it, but gave Dallas a detailed section.
|
Nothing, really. Divided city along the Colorado. The I-35 bridge is the "checkpoint charlie" of Austin. Home of Lone Star.
I kept overlooking the effect this could have on PCC, which like you said, could be significant.
Pthgar
Mar 17 2005, 12:54 AM
QUOTE (hermit) |
Pthgar, whom are you referring to? CD? |
Yes.
All I am saying is that when things change, in an environment already tense and on edge, a war is much more likley. After a war, borders are often changed and alliances are created/destroyed.
The specifics of who attacks whom and where the new lines in the sand are, are just speculation from me. I have no particular feeling for one scenario or another. It just makes sense that this "event" would cause open hostilities to break out in some way.
Fortune
Mar 17 2005, 01:24 AM
QUOTE (shadow_scholar) |
If someone could tell me how to post a spoiler type link I'd be happy to lay down the history I've written for Austin since the early 21st. |
I, for one. would love to see what you've come up with for Austin.
Spoilers are done as follows ...
CODE |
[spoiler]Stuff that spoils![/spoiler] |
Which gives you ...
[ Spoiler ]
Stuff that spoils!
shadow_scholar
Mar 17 2005, 02:18 AM
Thanx for the tip, Fortune.
Now I'm sure the timeline isn't perfect, but it was something I threw together from various sources to benefit my players as I had a couple of new ones to Shadowrun. Most of the stuff in the beginning loosely pertains to how Austin was affected. The new information I created for Austin came into play at 2021. I also took a big liberty with the year 2047 where commerce begins again between the CAS and Aztlan. I seem to recall reading something about that, but I just pulled the year from nowhere. I'm not even sure if the CAS and Aztlan are even willing to trade with each other according to canon.
So if you're interested, here's my timeline for the City of Austin. It's kinda long, too.
[ Spoiler ]
A timeline for the City of Austin
2010 - The VITAS Plague. A new virus appeared out of nowhere in the year 2010. The first cases of a new plague, similar to SARS in symptoms, but much more deadly, first appears in New Delhi. Given the interconnected world of the early 21st century, the plague spread like wildfire. Before the end of the year the plague appeared to have burned itself out, but not before killing 25% of the world's population. Austin took its share of the plague, having nearly 20% of its population extinguished in less than a year.
2011 - Governments Come and Go, but Magic Lives Forever. Throughout 2010 the government of Mexico was in peril. Decades of corruption, money-laundering, and rigged elections had finally taken its toll on the Mexican people and in January of 2011 the government of the country formerly known as Mexico collapsed. Tens of thousands of refugees fled to Texas, a great many of them landing in the Austin area. This influx of Mexicans set off a huge racial war in which no part of the state was left unaffected. Just when it seemed that things could get no worse, it seemed that all parents, regardless of race or heritage, started to bear "mutant" children - elves and dwarves, the first metahumans. Scientists called this frightening phenomenon Unexplained Genetic Expression, or UGE. Some suspect this scientific classification was a tactic intended to reassure people about their newborn "mutant" children, while in truth the scientific community had no idea what was causing the mutations. They would soon learn that this was just the first manifestion of magic in the modern world. Various unexplained phenomena continued to happen all around the world, such as dragons reappearing, violent storms causing massive changes to landscapes, forests coming alive and retaking their natural states from the manufactured world, and a shaman known as Daniel Howling Coyote led a guerilla war against a Native American Re-Education Center in Abilene, Texas and sparked was to become the formation of the Native American Nations. For most people the massive changes taking place in the world were not explained until the dragon Dunkelzahn made his first appearance and gave an interview to reporter Holly Brighton. In this landmark interview, which lasted 12 hours and 16 minutes, the dragon explained to the world that all these changes had meant that magic had returned to world, coined the Re-Awakening.
2014-2018 - The World Keeps Changing. The world kept changing at a drastic rate. In 2014 the shaman Daniel Howling Coyote announced the formation of the Native American Nations and outlined territory that was a part of both the United States and Canada. The governments of those two countries were worried, but they didn't take any action against this new threat.
In 2015 the newly elected President of Mexico announced that the country had been formally renamed as Aztlan, and called for all people of Hispanic heritage to "join in reclaiming our glorious cultural heritage." Not surprisingly, not many fled back over the Texas border to join the new country, which many saw as merely a toy for the ORO corporation, which was said to have the government and the president in its pocket. The ORO Corporation would later be known as Aztechnology, with the entire country of Aztlan as its wholly owned subsidiary.
That same year the NAN guerilla war had begun with magic being the main weapon of the NAN people. Howling Coyote laid claim to all of the United States as Tribal land and ordered all "Anglos" out of Amerindian territory. By Anglos he meant anyone of non-native american heritage, including blacks, asians, and europeans. The war turned into a horrible debacle for the United States, which, after numerous losses of military bases and troops to the magical threat, quickly passed legislation, known as the Resolution Act, to officially exterminate all Native American tribes on its soil.
Howling Coyote responded with the most effective weapon in his arsenal: magic. Over the following year, Coyote and his people - and later, Native Americans all across the continent - began the magical ritual known as the Great Ghost Dance. The Dance raised vast amounts of magical power, which the Native Americans turned against their enemies. As the U.S. government moved to implement the Resolution Act, freak weather and other uncanny disturbances disrupted military bases and supply dumps assigned to the operation. The havoc reached its height on August 17, 2017, when Mount Hood, Mount Rainier, Mount St. Helens and Mount Adams all erupted in cataclysmic fury. The suddenness and extent of the devastation finally convinced even the most skeptical of people that the magic was real and that the Native Americans were serious. As one oft-quoted wit from the tome put it, "Mother Earth Let us know whose side she was on and it wasn't ours."
In 2018, after three months of negotiation, the Treaty of Denver was signed. This treaty included the participation of the NAN, the United States, Canada, and Aztlan. As a result all non Native American inhabitants of the newly formed Native American Nations had to relocate to either United States or Canadian land. This resulted in another rush of refugees to Texas, landing thousands more in Austin.
2021 - Goblinization and the University Dead Land. Numerous humans began transforming into Orks and Trolls when Goblinization began taking place on April 30th, 2021. The new change appeared to affect one out of every 10 humans. It was a time of high fear, anger, and violence.
During the first few days of goblinization a group of magical researchers at the University of Texas summoned a highly powerful magical being. No one is quite sure how or why they summoned it, but this being quickly grew out of the control of the summoning group, which was comprised of various magically active faculty and students. The being committed massive violence, including killing every member of the group that summoned it. The being called forth other beings and they took over a section of the city immediately surrounding the University of Texas. The beings created impromptu walls around their newly conquered territory using extemporaneous objects and debris. To this day no one knows who or what the being was and if it is still there. The area, now termed the University Dead Land, is still under unknown magical control and still has the walls surrounding it. All attempts to penetrate the area through magic have failed, typically with disastrous results to the magician attempting the feat. Mundane people can still enter the area, but in nearly every known case the person hasn't returned. There are various rumors and tales of the inhabitants of the University Dead Land and what they're up to, but no one knows what truth, if any, the rumors hold. There is a constant low cloud cover over the area, no matter what the weather is like outside the walls. The University of Texas Tower is typically visible above the cloud cover, sometimes with strange lights emanating from the top of the tower after nightfall.
After the incident both the University of Texas and the threatened Texas State Capitol moved further north up the I-35 corridor out of the downtown area, laying the seeds for the new downtown area of the future Austin.
2030-2033 - Secession Fever. After the great computer crash of 2029 the economic states of both the United States and Canada were in ruin. As a result both countries agreed to join and create the United Canadian American States, or UCAS. The only opponent to this merger that was allowed to be heard was California, which ratified an act of secession, which was not opposed by the still forming UCAS. This was just the first of the secessions to take place. Two years later the representatives of ten Southern states walked out of Congressional Legislation and met to discuss secession. They ultimately decided against it, but the seeds had been sown. A year later, to protest what they saw as preferential treatment for northern sprawl zones, these states broke away to form the Confederated American States (CAS), which included the State of Texas.
2035 - Aztlan Invasion. In 2035 the nation of Aztlan invaded Texas, with the intent to take back the land lost when Texas declared and won its independence nearly 200 years before. The fast moving Aztlan military razed the entire southwest region of Texas including all of San Antonio and half of Austin. The Aztlan military was poised to take the rest of Austin and continue its northward march but it was stopped dead in its tracks when General Travis McPheed, of the Texas State Guard, destroyed two dams just to the north east of Austin. The ensuing flood of water washed away a great deal of the Aztlan military that was crossing the bridges of the Colorado River. Tens of thousands of civilians died downstream from the dams, but McPheed was honored by the State of Texas and the government of the CAS for stopping the massive Aztlan push which had the potential to take the entire state of Texas. As a result of having lost so much of its city to an invading country and that invader still knocking on the door, the Texas government made the decision to move the base of their democratic power to Dallas. Refugee traffic from the lost portion of Texas increased Austin's and Dallas' size dramatically. Various refugee camps still exist today, having changed from temporary camps to permanent shanty towns.
2036 - Texas Secession. In just a few months after the Aztlan invasion the Texas government, angry over the lack of military support from the CAS, exercised its right to secede, and became its own country once again after 200 years. The independence didn't even last a year, though, when the military and monetary help Texas asked for from the UCAS fell through. Humbled and fearful of another Aztlan invasion the Texas government petitioned to join the CAS once again and was quickly welcomed back.
2047 - The Continuing Reconstruction. After many years of strict sanctions the State of Texas finally reopened its borders to Aztlan trade after major peace talks and negotiations. Despite not trading with the neighbor a stone's throw away Austin had continued to grow economically at a brisk pace. Along with the agreement to trade again both the Austin and Aztlan government reached an agreement to rebuild the two destroyed dams in a joint effort to provide the region with some much needed electricity to help relieve the stress placed on the nuclear reactor in Temple. The dams were reconstructed in less than two years and turned the parts of Austin closest to the banks of the Colorado River into a stable place to live again. The regained control over the river's currents didn't change the lifestyles in those areas, despite Austin's best efforts. Those areas are still filled with lower income, lower lifestyle inhabitants, and are a haven for smugglers, gangs, and organized crime.
2061 - Haley's Comet. Just when things had seemed to have quieted down and the world had returned to a semi-normal pace, in the year 2061 Haley's Comet made a return to Earth. As it moved past Earth it caused many, many magical upheavals, both on an individual scale and a large one. The largest effect Haley's Comet had on the Austin area was the reawakening of a strip forest south east of Austin, known as the Lost Pines. This is a strip of pine forest is surrounded by deciduous oak with the nearest pine forest hundreds of miles to the east. The Lost Pines are a remnant leftover from the rich pines forests from 5,000 years ago. Constant urbanization and human occupation had been reducing the forest and thinning it slowly, but when Haley's Comet returned the forest became magically active and started to reclaim its land in a rather violent manner. Many of the local creatures quickly transformed into paranormal animals and began to reclaim their lost territory. The trees themselves broke up the sprawl that had begun to take over the area by demolishing homes, fracturing roadways, and destroying all artificial constructs, including most of the city of Bastrop, the entire Camp Swift military area, and the man made Lake Bastrop and its power plant. The only area that seems to have been left as it was is the area once part of Camp Swift in the 1940s that was used as a Japanese internment camp. Some believe the background count stemming from the massive negative emotion of the area kept the forest from trying to reclaim it. Rumors persist that some magical entity is in charge of keeping the forest safe. Some say it will descend upon interlopers with great ferocity, especially those who are only there in the forest to cultivate its rich magical resources for talismans or those who try to mine its rich orichalcum deposits.
An Aztlan corporation once tried to mine a large orichalcum vein located within the forest's boundaries. They arrived with many large, powerful machines and began moving through the forest to get to the orichalcum. Before they even arrived at the deposit area they were ambushed by numerous nature spirits, awakened creatures, and a few eye witnesses even claimed they saw what they would describe as a "Man-of-the-Woods." Rumors also persist that a dragon and/or a feathered serpent has been spotted in the area.
An interesting side effect of the massive power of the awakened pine forest is the quality of the water downstream from the forest. When the heavily polluted water washes downstream from Austin and comes in contact with the area inhabited by the forest, it comes out clean and clear on the other side of the forest. The water is not magically active and tests have shown it to extraordinarily clean. Some small corporations have since attempted to cash in on the "free" water filtration taking place by building small dams or diverting the river downstream from the forest. In the middle of construction various nature spirits have demolished the progress of the corporations each and every time it is attempted. To this day only those who use the water for home use can easily and freely collect it. So far no ill effects have been reported from the downstream inhabitants that drink the water.
Austin today: While the modern day version of Austin is much, much larger than its old size at the turn of the century, the growth hasn't been without pain. The City of Austin has faced many major setbacks since magic returned to the world, but it remains a shining example of progress despite the hardships the city has had to endure. The Austin of today is a mecca of trade, technology, art, fashion, music, academics, and crime. Both official and unofficial trade make Austin the place to be when trading with Aztlan and Aztechnology goods. The heavy technology industry is the other main staple of the Austin economy, where virtually every kind of electronics available today can be found at typically better than average prices. The art, fashion, and music scene in Austin is alive and well. The city is always within these creative industries’ top ten list, and typically will hold a top three spot in the music surveys for the most influential cities in North America. The current University of Texas is considered an upper level university in North America for most technological, artistic, and business programs. After rising from the ashes of the old University site the new University worked diligently to place itself in the upper echelon of schools. The University of Texas at Austin is an academic as well as sports powerhouse, often considered to be one of the best school in all of the CAS. But oddly, ever since the University Dead Land incident there is no magical studies program at the University of Texas at Austin. Most Texan students looking for a degree in magical practices go to the Texas A&M&M University in College Station.
Despite basing their worldwide operations there the Lone Star Security Corporation still has been unable to extinguish the massive criminal underworld that exists in Austin. The smuggling trade is very big business in Austin. The various products and information being traded with Aztlan has definitely caught the eye of some organized crime groups. Currently the typical big players in other major cities, the Mafia and Yakuza, play a lesser role in the Austin's darker side. The Chinese Triads, Korean Seoulpa Rings, and the regional Hispanic crime group known as La Raza (The Race) hold sway over much of Austin's dark underbelly. But for every bit of organized crime being committed there is twice as much "independent" crime happening. The areas closest to the Colorado River border are filled with low lifestyle inhabitants and crime is a fact of life for them. The lack of law enforcement in those areas only perpetuates the cycle, but some believe this is by design and not because the Lone Star couldn't handle the challenge. It is often rumored that much of the money generated by the criminal underworld goes to the Lone Star Corporation in one way or another to keep their focus on the other areas of the city and not directly on the Aztlan/CAS border.
On the other side of the Colorado River, in the Aztlan portion of the old Austin, crime is more than just a way of life or a by product of lifestyle, it is a full fledged industry. The lack of Aztlan governmental control makes the city of South Austin a major mecca for illegality. The continued pull out of the Aztlan and Aztechnology forces in the area to help quell the Yucatan rebellion has only left South Austin even more free from law enforcement.
CanvasBack
Mar 17 2005, 04:52 AM
QUOTE (hermit) |
Furthermore, the situation in Europe - fter 80 years of NATO and 70 years of EU - is notably different than the situation in America. NOONE in America is willing to get along with the others. It's too much bad blood. A bit like Europe after WW2, only without nthe US and USSR breathing down their necks and forcing at least the West to get along and settle old problems.
There is no power to force the American nations together. And Aztlan, fearsome as it may be, is only a middle power itself, and bogged down already with a nasty uprising on it's own turf and the CAS and PCC border standoff. Hey, look at how Iraq is bogging down the US, and it has much, much larger ressources than Aztlan can ever dream to muster.
In short, Canvasback, your theory is highly unlikely.
And please don't mention the Habsburg angle. That's part of the DidS 1 stupidity. It was bad writing, nothing else.
I am sure the authors of SR4 can do better than that. |
No one in North America has the ability to work together and yet mysteriously the PCC and CAS tag teamed Aztlan out of Denver, presumably at the behest of Ghostwalker, but none the less they did cooperate and the others on Denver's council got behind the new status quo. Kinda looks like the NAN is willing to cooperate with traditional rival/enemies, at least under duress...
The whole reason CAS exists is the same reason the whole NIJ/Hapsburg reborn exists, a notion of historic cycles and history repeating itself embraced by the authors. And yes , that is lazy writing but it could be explained away if you embrace IEs, the Way of the Righ, and the effects of magic on the world... Not my bag but hey...
I personally got the impression from Target:Wasteland that the Azzies were just going to give up on Yucatan and either light it up like a tac-nuke Christmas Tree or deliver enough chemical and/or biological agents to the area to net the same effect. AFter which, they would cordon off the area just like the SOX in Europe. Hey, that would involve the genocide of an indigenous group, maybe NAN wouldn't stand for that...
As likely or unlikely as a war betwen Aztlan and some or all of the rest of the North American nations may be it's at least plausible enough for both sides to be worried about it. World War I is the classic example of a war nobody planned for or thought was likely but it happened none the less...
People have bad ideas and don't learn from history, why should Aztlan/Aztechnology in particular learn from other's mistakes? Aside from the Yucatan and more recently Denver, things had been going their way.
And what makes you think they purged all the authors from SR3 to create SR4? That would be somewhat silly, wouldn't it?
Crimsondude 2.0
Mar 17 2005, 04:52 PM
QUOTE (Pthgar) |
Your post makes sense, but the thing is there are so many variables in international relations that a work of fiction cannot account for them all (heck, most historians an poli sci people can't do it). In the end, wars happen. |
Yes, I know.
My questions weren't directed at the characters. They're directed at YOU.
After all, they may be willing to invade willy-nilly, but once they're in, they're in, and someone--the authors, natch--will have to address these very issues in order for it not to be considered another lame plot in SR's history.
Pthgar
Mar 17 2005, 05:11 PM
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
My questions weren't directed at the characters. They're directed at YOU. |
Fair enough.
ME: Pick your poison. I've offered up a few reason for an invasion (economics, ideology, old history) that have been enough of a cause in real world history. The results of that invasion could be that the invaders are pushed back, the invaders occupy and institute a repressive regime, borders shift a little, or many other things.
DEVELOPERS: I reject that the authors have to create a 100% ironclad logic with all the possible repurcussions and motives thought out and written into the characters for a war to happen. This is fiction, I susspend my disbelief. They only have to give me a reasonbly plausable scenario.
IN GAME: I don't know how you feel about the whole General Saito thing but it shows that the developers are willing to do this kind of thing. Heck, Aztlan already moved in and grabbed land in CFS when they thought it was weak. There is a precident. Just (as CanvasBack pointed out with CAS and PCC) there is a precident for N.A. countries to allie when it is in thier best interest.
I'm not exactly sure what your objection to the idea that with all the changes the new edition will bring, with the crash of the matrix, and with the jump of 5 years that a war couldn't happen. Perhaps, if you told me exactly what it is you object to, I could think about it. I'm open to changing my mind, convince me.
hermit
Mar 17 2005, 05:17 PM
QUOTE |
There is a precident. Just (as CanvasBack pointed out with CAS and PCC) there is a precident for N.A. countries to allie when it is in thier best interest. |
Well, for some, in an alliance of opportunity. But that's a long shot from American Restoration.
Pthgar
Mar 17 2005, 05:10 PM
QUOTE (hermit) |
QUOTE | There is a precident. Just (as CanvasBack pointed out with CAS and PCC) there is a precident for N.A. countries to allie when it is in thier best interest. |
Well, for some, in an alliance of opportunity. But that's a long shot from American Restoration.
|
Not saying a restoration will happen. Just saying a war and alliances are possible.
Kanada Ten
Mar 17 2005, 05:10 PM
The CAS and PCC have been allies for a long time in canon and share a large ex-Mexican population. They have much more in common to begin with, but niether of them is taking about merger or anything remotely close. No other nations have the same bond: the CAS and UCAS still have border conflicts! They don't even share intelligence! If Aztlan invaded the south and neither the CAS or PCC could drive them back, then the UCAS might help out, but they'll want repreations after the war, not merger unless the South was devestated and some out pouring of uncharacteristic sympathy from the public made it plausable to form a protectorate.
Crimsondude 2.0
Mar 17 2005, 05:33 PM
QUOTE (shadow_scholar) |
So if you're interested, here's my timeline for the City of Austin. It's kinda long, too. |
Badass.
CanvasBack
Mar 17 2005, 07:18 PM
QUOTE (Pthgar) |
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 17 2005, 01:17 PM) | QUOTE | There is a precident. Just (as CanvasBack pointed out with CAS and PCC) there is a precident for N.A. countries to allie when it is in thier best interest. |
Well, for some, in an alliance of opportunity. But that's a long shot from American Restoration.
|
Not saying a restoration will happen. Just saying a war and alliances are possible.
|
Exactly. I don't know that anyone advocated that all of NA was going to be put back together in the five year interlude. But re-unification is a goal that's floating around out there in canon, by various organizations on both sides of the CAS/UCAS divide. The five year interlude defintiely isn't enough time to accomplish anything like that. On the other hand, if the True American Party from CAS continues to make headway... Who knows?
The UCAS has huge problems of its own, not the least of which is the festering hive that was Chicago. As for CAS/UCAS border conflicts... I look at that mostly as Hatfield and McCoy type stuff rather than sanctioned government policy. But then I've always said that they handled Northern Virginia all wrong. After all the years of big government in DC and the countless civilian Federal workers maintaining the bureaucracy required, that area is basically dominated by Fed-loyal type of people. To the consternation of some traditional Virginians I'm sure, but the little sliver of Northern Virginia that UCAS ends up with ought to have been much larger...
Considering both countries have basically the remnants of the two-major parties operating in them along with the newer ones, I wouldn't think that a political understanding might not have been reached years ago... And if I'm not mistaken, the CDC, while based in Atlanta, actually is funded by both governments to promote the common good, at least in terms of health in North America.
And the people might go for it, simply on the basis that it has the potential at least, to keep the AAA mega-corps in line. The balkanization of North America works to the megas' advantage most of all, and clearly that has hurt the average person in the SR universe.
Kanada Ten
Mar 17 2005, 07:55 PM
I thought the CDC was an independent corp now, with only headquarters in Atlanta, funded on a case by case basis, not by a nation's general fund. But that's not exactly relevant.
QUOTE |
And the people might go for it, simply on the basis that it has the potential at least, to keep the AAA mega-corps in line. The balkanization of North America works to the megas' advantage most of all, and clearly that has hurt the average person in the SR universe. |
How so? Megacorps saved the world economies, rebuilt cities, saved nations from dissolving into anarchy, protect their workers, and pretty much run all the privatized services saving cities millons. And who will have the better marketing ads for reunification? Those with the megas or those against?
hermit
Mar 17 2005, 08:33 PM
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
QUOTE (shadow_scholar @ Mar 16 2005, 07:18 PM) | So if you're interested, here's my timeline for the City of Austin. It's kinda long, too. |
Badass.
|
I agree. Any plans to make an online source book out of it? That'd surely be great ... the timeline sounded awesome. I'd love to see some of your locations, city plots, and other things you made up for the city.
CanvasBack
Mar 17 2005, 09:04 PM
QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
How so? Megacorps saved the world economies, rebuilt cities, saved nations from dissolving into anarchy, protect their workers, and pretty much run all the privatized services saving cities millons. And who will have the better marketing ads for reunification? Those with the megas or those against? |
Saved the world economies or re-engineered them to directly benefit themselves?
I don't even think that the megas should be considered solid allies of one another in this regard either, considering their varying relationships with national governments. Ares cultivates a tight relationship with the UCAS and Aztechnology pretty much OWNS Aztlan lock stock and barrel, CatCO follows the Ares mode except for Quebec... The Japanacorps are falling all over themselves to adapt to the changes or stem the tide of change that the New Emperor is seeking.... Saeder-Krup does as Lofwyr pleases it seems. UCAS/CAS unification might be very good for Ares and possibly Novatech, and neutral or bad for everyone else and intolerable to Aztechnology. Many, many, many opportunities for shadow-ops... Which, is part of the reason why I would enjoy advancing that plot-line, whether or not it ultimately succeeds.
Hell, it could start another Corp War...
I think that if you take the attitude that the Megacorps saved the world economies than you have to grant that for the common man to see it that way, he would have to be employed by a Mega. It seems to me those people climbing the the corporate ladder at a AA or a AAA are in the extreme minority, and as such, other folks that are lucky enough to still be in the workforce are working for depressed wages and low benefits. After all, most of the employees of the big boys are earning corp script and spending at the company store. That represents a fundamental disconnect from the rest of a national economy and part of the reason that Megas can keep their costs down... Loyalty to the corporate system, sure, from within. Outside of it, not really. Rampant unemployment and a "Barrens" in every major metropolitan city just underscores the disparities the mega-corps have created. It's probably good for the game that resistance to Megacorporate policies fail, it keeps the game in line with a dark edge. But that doesn't mean the struggle doesn't exist.
Crimsondude 2.0
Mar 17 2005, 09:14 PM
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Mar 17 2005, 12:55 PM) |
I thought the CDC was an independent corp now, with only headquarters in Atlanta, funded on a case by case basis, not by a nation's general fund. But that's not exactly relevant. |
No, CDC is run by the governments. WHO is the corporate whore.
Euchrid
Mar 18 2005, 02:17 AM
I'm curious about something - do you guys all play your games in your home states? I'm Australian, and I hate what the ShadowRun timeline has done to Australia (Not to mention the condescending "g'day mate" way that Target:Awakened Lands is written), but the solution is real simple - we don't go to Australia.
Of course, I understand that Australia is a pretty small part of the Shadowrun world, while CalFree and the UCAS are much more important locations, but surely you can work around it.
And if you really hate it, fix it. Have your runners start a chain of events that lead to the map being redrawn the way that you like it. FanPro aren't going to come into your house and force you to play their timeline.
Kanada Ten
Mar 18 2005, 02:21 AM
Euchrid, you may want to look at
this thread.
Wireknight
Mar 18 2005, 02:23 AM
Fortunately, I happen to live in Pennsylvania. No one comes here, and little of global importance happens here, now. It's quite plausible to assume the same is true in the Shadowrun era.
"Um, well, the Amish are now Awakened. They're all adepts, and they can build barns in twenty minutes. Let's never speak of sixth world Pennsylvania again."
Aristotle
Mar 18 2005, 02:32 AM
QUOTE (Wireknight) |
Let's never speak of sixth world Pennsylvania again." |
LOL... I've been thinking of doing a spoof "Shadows of.." for Hanover, PA (my hometown and where I continue to run games). After the initial brainstorm I came to pretty much the same conclusion.
Euchrid
Mar 18 2005, 03:21 AM
QUOTE |
Euchrid, you may want to look at this thread. |
Ah, excellent. Thank you very much.
Penta
Mar 18 2005, 04:23 AM
QUOTE (Aristotle) |
QUOTE (Wireknight @ Mar 17 2005, 10:23 PM) | Let's never speak of sixth world Pennsylvania again." |
LOL... I've been thinking of doing a spoof "Shadows of.." for Hanover, PA (my hometown and where I continue to run games). After the initial brainstorm I came to pretty much the same conclusion.
|
<twitch>
An image, if you will.
Shadows of Scranton.
Tal
Mar 18 2005, 04:35 AM
QUOTE (Euchrid) |
I'm curious about something - do you guys all play your games in your home states? I'm Australian, and I hate what the ShadowRun timeline has done to Australia (Not to mention the condescending "g'day mate" way that Target:Awakened Lands is written), but the solution is real simple - we don't go to Australia.
Of course, I understand that Australia is a pretty small part of the Shadowrun world, while CalFree and the UCAS are much more important locations, but surely you can work around it.
And if you really hate it, fix it. Have your runners start a chain of events that lead to the map being redrawn the way that you like it. FanPro aren't going to come into your house and force you to play their timeline. |
I live in Australia too, and I agree. Awakened Australia is... wierd. It seems like a kind of SR Valhalla, where only the meanest, leanest runners can survive.
hermit
Mar 18 2005, 10:52 AM
QUOTE |
I'm Australian, and I hate what the ShadowRun timeline has done to Australia |
Well, you're still better off than I am. Ever read the Germany sourcebook? Worst thing ever publiched with the shadowrun logo on it. Needless to say, we usually play in Seatttle. Though we do make the occasional trip over the pond, and my one character actually was concepted as being brought up bilingual German/English.
QUOTE |
"Um, well, the Amish are now Awakened. They're all adepts, and they can build barns in twenty minutes. Let's never speak of sixth world Pennsylvania again." |
Actually ... you know, With God/Jesus/Holy Spirit as a totem or idol, they could be pretty powerful mages. They could also sustain a field to mind-control all who come in to behave according to their ideals, or something. After all, SR favours spiritual people over secular when it comes to magic (why the former US isn't teeming with evangelical christian "shamans" is beyond me, though).
mfb
Mar 18 2005, 03:57 PM
they're all walled up in the anglo reservations in NAN territory.
Penta
Mar 18 2005, 04:51 PM
That could make sense.
Personally, what a lot of the location books illustrate to me is what a
bad idea it is to have locals writing them.
In the other thread linked about people's hometowns, one can smell how much a book on an area would be used to indulge personal fantasies or otherwise grind axes. (Observe how the Jersey Shore gets treated. ARCOLOGIES? ARCOLOGIES?

)
Locals bring interesting thoughts re the terrain, but outsiders should really write the "events" side, IMHO. Locals tend to turn their places into either blatantly-political fantasies, shiny happy stupidity, or "We suck more than you do!" one-ups-manship.
hermit
Mar 18 2005, 06:17 PM
QUOTE |
Personally, what a lot of the location books illustrate to me is what a bad idea it is to have locals writing them. |
Generally, people who write abot a place should know a lot about it, and think realistically. Berlin in the Germany SB (which still pisses me off like few things concerning SR) was written by locals. However, if someone in a country far away who has never set foot into Berlin wrote about it (and gives all chararcters odd names, like "Haesslich" and such), that's not precisely better.
Bottom line: books should be written by skilled and informed people.
shadow_scholar
Mar 18 2005, 06:32 PM
QUOTE (hermit) |
I agree. Any plans to make an online source book out of it? That'd surely be great ... the timeline sounded awesome. I'd love to see some of your locations, city plots, and other things you made up for the city. |
I hadn't really thought that deeply about it. I do want to take a closer look at the various places of special interest I could incorporate and write up some current state of affairs for them. I've already created a basic map for the new Austin, but I haven't even touched the Aztlan portion, yet. I'd love to undertake such a task as an online sourcebook, but I have no clue about how to post such a thing. I don't know how to build webpages, or even where to host. But who knows. No matter what, though, I'm gonna keep writing. Maybe soon I'll have enough stuff created to be able to put together a crude reference file based on the old Neo-A's Guide style of presentation. But if I do devote a whole lot of time to creating a split Austin, I'd hate to have it all be rendered moot because Texas gets its southern portion back. Either that of I could just not play SR4 if they do change it.
And Penta, I can agree with what you're saying. Sometimes writers can take too much pride in their home area, but it's a tradeoff for the local flavor you're going to get from someone who actually lives there currently. You just have to hope that the writer will have their head screwed on straight enough to make the place interesting, but not go too far and make it cheesy.
Jrayjoker
Mar 18 2005, 06:35 PM
QUOTE (hermit) |
Bottom line: books should be written by skilled and informed people. |
Amen, and 1 out of 2 don't cut it IMO.
Research goes a long way, though.
FrostyNSO
Mar 20 2005, 01:22 AM
QUOTE (Neuron Basher) |
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 15 2005, 11:13 PM) | It basically portrays my home state (and in particular my home city of LA) as a mix of half-aware hippies and yuppies with their heads so far up their own anuses ... |
You mean they aren't? I couldn't help myself. Bad Neuron Basher, bad bad. |
No, no, I live there and you were right the first time
MagicalGirlPrettyMatt
Mar 22 2005, 01:28 AM
For those who care, there's a really good link
here to some information on the demographics of North America, and an interesting balkanized map it draws for the 21st Century. If I were to have made Shadowrun (and we're probably all better off that I didn't, but that's another matter), this is what I would have based it off of. It would simply take me too long to explain and relay all the information at this link, so I've decided to just go directly to the source. In another area of the site, there's another discussion of so-called "Edge Cities" like Silicon Valley, and the new commerce centers of North America.
Crimsondude 2.0
Mar 22 2005, 01:35 AM
The idea of MexAmerica is laughable. Too many people hate each other to ever form any sort of cohesive political agenda or organization. I like how he dismisses the self-identification of "Spanish" in New Mexico as snobbery. Snobbery is one thing, but a lot of people are just friggin' racist against Mexicans.
frostPDP
Mar 22 2005, 03:06 AM
Well, border-redrawing is one of the funnier conversations I've watched. I'm a New Yorker, and one of our players/GM drew up secnerios for New York which came very close to what was written up by the bigwigs. Just ironic I suppose; but as screwed as NY and the US get, we don't really mind much. Its a fantasy world.
At the absolute worst, if you want to stick to canon, you can have your players/teammates undertake a large campain to force war against Atzlan and take it back. Your runner team can just go on random kill-all-enemies missions against Atzlan bases and boom, perhaps the CAS will take interest. A GM could well make the re-conquest of Texas (or more!) the focal point of everything.
So really, the borders can be as much an issue for pride as anything. But you should never act out of pride; I think the US is split up fairly nicely. The United States of today has marginal interest in the mid-west area, due to sparse population, etc. If that's all the NAN wanted, they might well let go provided they still get the western parts of California. The CAS sceeding? Well, I'm sure we've all seen those pictures of "Jesusland." Seriously though, much of the south hasn't even been integrated for 50 years; that's a cultural difference of titanic proportion. Hell, the CAS didn't even leave with that much animosity behind it - The scession was relatively peaceful. Its very possible that the two would team up and just retain seperate political structures, provided Atzlan made a number of expansionist moves (or it was discovered their Blood Magic was bringing back "The Enemy.") toward conquering the rest of NA.
Also remember that a divided target like Atzlan is incredibly suspect to attack. Anyway I've rambled on enough, have fun tearing me