IMHO that's a wrong decision.
It simply doesn't make sense that a Catholic should adopt Native American (probably more accurately North West American) spiritualism as the major part of his magical approach. Neither does it make sense that a Hindu should adopt some obscure occult tradition of the West rather than his own rich tradition. Well, it does, but then it is in the realm of New Age and street magic.
Steve Kensons and thus the current SR approach is that all magic should be New Agey, leaving very little room for other approaches. I hope they'll move away from it in SR4. Other approaches than the four (shaman, hermetic, voudoun, wu-jen) outlined in current SR would be great, especially for the monoteistic traditions. What annoys me the most is that almost everything in European and Arab traditions is reduced to hermetic elemental magic, though I've already said a lot in this other thread.
To be short, I hope for magic rules that is less D&D and more Hellblazer, though still with it's own Shadowrun twist.

So no-one other than the north-west ribes ever worshiped or venerated eagles?

Well, I'm a little rusty on my Catholicism, but I don't recall there being veneration of eagles in the Roman Catholic tradition.

If totems pick the shaman--an idea which I consider to be nothing short of nonsense--then it makes no sense for them to pick someone who denies their existence. Even halfway, a particularly devout Catholic, the kind that you'd think would be open to accepting the gift of magic were it to be given to them rather than transferred down genetically, then it would make as much sense that they'd piss away that gift because Satan was tempting them in the form of magical power at the cost of their soul (Since it breaks the First Commandment to worship--which is what adhering to totem strictures is--other deities).

Which is why every mention of "traditionalist" magical pracitioners in the RCC has been as Idol followers and not shamansm, per se. At least Idols can manifest as idealizations of ones' faith (i.e., angels or saints), whereas a Horse is a Horse, unless it's Eagle or Mouse.

That said, it is not beyond the realm of comprehension for someone who happens to be Catholic to follow another magical tradition if that is what manifests and they decide to adhere to it. After all, there are quite a few RL Native Americans who are Catholics, Protestants, or various other sects of Christianity. They can reconcile their faith as they see fit, whether they are Navajo and Catholic/Baptist/Native American Church/etc. If they didn't, we wouldn't have Santeria, Voudoun, or any of the many other bastardized religions which combined Catholicism and African or Native beliefs--the ones which stretch far and wide across the Western Hemisphere.

But it ain't Catholicism.

Whereas a Hindi Hermetic is just fine, because Hermeticism isn't a religious belief. It is, frankly, a science (or should be) taught like Social or Physical Sciences in academic settings in colleges and schools around the world. Being a Hindi Hermetic is the same thing, IMO, to being a Christian Biologist.

For what it's worth, the lead character out of the original Secrets of Power SR Novel Triology denied the existance of Dog for a good portion of the begining of the storyline, despite being a Dog Shaman.

Of course, of course.

i would have to say that i would like to see the world's major religions worked into SR4 both in lifestyle (though that section may be small) and in magic. i think that adding a possible theological aspect to magic would give magic a good twist - you could then have a 'cleric' character, so-to-speak.

i believe that you could, in rare cases, have a shamanic christian. i think that angelic totems for catholics would be a great idea...and may i suggest a Jesus totem for use by any christian religion? i do not think this idea is great, but i would like to toss it out for discussion anyway...i see it more as rules on what advantages/disadvantages you would get if you simply worshipped Jesus instead of a totem. i would think of this kind of character as i would think of a stereotypical southern baptist - while performing magic they would hoot 'n holler things like 'Amen!' and 'Praise Jesus!'.

i also think that they could, being an enlightened christian, take on any of the regular totems out of respect for that animal and it's values, while always staying true to God. i just believe you could be deeply connected to the spirit of another person/creature without forsaking your duties to uphold God's law. it would all come down to the PC's ability to stay IC.

or that all hermetic mages must be scientists...they don't have to know anything about physics or biology to toss mana bolts around.

It is a little odd that there's not Divine Martyr idol.

Western religion and religion and related faiths, yes. They were perfectly fine with concering themselves with other faiths, such as Hinduism, American/Uralic shamanism, Wicca, ect.

I don't see why Christianity (or, for that matter, Judaism, Zainism and Islam) shouldn't revceive the same treatment. Except that American audiences might not like this. But, newsflash: the core fanbase of Shadowrun isn't in America alone, or is it?

Don't tell me you think the Catholic church isn't "shamanic" by Shadowrun standards ... it is, in fact, the closest to all these totem and idol thingies in practice and most pragmatic about integrating faith and life. And since we consider it a school of Shadowrun magic, that's the important part, though the Germany book's Theurgy propably has a place with the more materialistic sects, like Jesuits.

Most continental protestant sects would propably be better served with a "hermetic" approach, while America's christian tradition again would revolve around idols, most likely the puniticve and forgiving aspects of God/Christ (as separate Idols).

I'd suppose so, though it gets a lot more difficult if the two sources are opposed to each other (evangelical christian shaman with a decidedly non-christian totem), especially if the shaman's faith is one of the less tolerant variants of a monotheist religion. Then again, the human mind can bend in many strange ways. Since I learned there's a Neo-Nazi movement in Israel, I doupt anything's impossible to unite.

Well, to a point. A biologist denying evolution isn't a real scientist because he choses to deny facts. Science, however, is all about factual evidence, which is needed to validate a theory. And before anyone here starts a tiresome debate on this topic, please don't; this forum is about sahadowrun. If you really want that debate, take it to PM, so ka?

Indeed. The whole idea of cybermancy would look really stupid without assuming there is a soul of sorts. Or, for that matter, astral projection. Not to mention there's the whole elf rebirth cycle thing mentioned in soem novels (Nosferatu, among others), the whole climax of the dragonheart cycle wouldn'T make much sense if Dunkelzahn hadn't a soul (or that aztech boss who seeks to transfer his soul into some victim) ... face it, Shadowrun assumes there is a soul. Which completely blurs the lines between religion and magic.

And if there're Elvis shamans, or self-initiated psionics based on Marvel Comics superheroes, I see absolutely no reason to exclude about half the world's population from SR's system of magic. Clearly Spider-Man and the X-Men aren't more of a spiritual and intuitive source than any monotheist holy scripture?

Who're you talking about?

Kanada Ten

Yes. We call them Idol followers.

My problem is that a Roman Catholic who follows Eagle is breaking the First Commandment by worshipping, to be frank, an animal.

You mean like the Order of St. Sylvester or the Exarchs?

I don't think I've ever played a shaman character that literally worshiped their totem. Even my idolist considered the Dragonslayer to be more akin to a commanding officer than a deity.

That is because most of them are actually pagan in origin, and were just assimilated during Europe's christianisation (countrary to what people are taught, most heathens didn't ant to abandon their old gods, particularily the rather stubborn celts and gauls - the church recognised this and adopten them into the ranks of saints).

Well, but they have a gazilion saints. I am sure one of them will grant abilities (and have drawbacks) a lot like Eagle.
The catholic church is really not short on possible idols.

But, yes, a catholic who'd follow Eagle's path would be committing a sin, unless he consider Eagle an avatar of God, of course. Besides, technically, shamen don't have to pray to and worship their totems, do they?

Doesn't it even mention one, by name? What's his name again ...

My whole thesis is predicated on the fact that I am referring specifically to totems--animal, mythic, and nature Totems. Idols are a whole other story. I have no problems at all with Idols. But... how many of those Saints were eagles?

And how many times are you all going to say something which is going to add nothing to the discussion because any response on my part is me repeating myself?

Here's a good idea: If I didn't say something, don't infer it. If I did, however, you don't have to ask again.

Nikoli - I would suggest your friend check with his local priest to see just how wrong he is on the matter. Catholic doctrine for more than 500 years has been that there is magic in the world, and it is not Divine in nature. What Saints have is not magic, it's miracle, a sign of Divine favor and the touch of the Holy Spirit as a direct result of their piety.

If you were a member of the clergy or an informed Catholic there is no chance you would confuse the two. In fact entire Catholic sects (the Cathars and the Templars to name a couple - and yeah I know its far more complex than that) have been prosecuted and expunged because they were believed to practice magic.

A misguided Catholic who uses magic believing it is miracle is in fact committing the Cardinal sin of Vanity effectively believing himself to be a Saint (which ironically disqualifies him automatically in the eyes of the Mother Church).

Hermit - This tells me you have no idea about Catholic doctrine or in fact practice, and you've probably never been to a mass let alone discussed theology with a priest. The Cult of the Saints has passing similiarities with idol worship but even a passing knowledge of the doctrine behind it clearly shows the difference. In fact, for the past 100 years Catholicism has become ever more unpragmatic and has disassociated faith and contemporary life.

Despite what the original German-language sourcebooks might have led you to believe, Theurgy is simply reinterpreting Hermetic lore using a Christian paradigm and symbology, and cleaning out all the Hellenistic, Egyptian and Pagan influences of Hermeticism. It is definitely not shamanistic.

In an SR context the distinctions have been made clear sine Grimoire 1. In SR3 MitS, SoE and SOTA64 have explained and underlined the differences in approach.

One final note - organized religions have increasingly small clergies, applying the 1% Talent to that universe, most will have only a handful of magicians (at most in the hundreds) among the clergy and those would be in specialist Orders (like the Catholic Sylvestrines & New Templars, the Orthodox Exarchs and the Westephalian Theurgists).

Until his Totem shows up as a giant Eagle...

You can't be serious. Totems aren't abstract ideas. They're idealized manifestations of abstract concepts. It makes no sense within the totemic NA belief systems and the SR structure of totems for it not to be Eagle. It's not a set of beliefs that a shaman follows. He's talking to friggin' Eagle, and doing what Eagle tells him to do, and drawing his power from Eagle.

And when you do that, God looks kind of like an absentee landlord.

And I don't know of any saint or any angel who would appear only as Eagle. Not an eagle. Eagle. At least when Dragonslayer comes, you project upon him the visage of St. Michael or any of a number of saints. Eagle's Eagle, and always will be Eagle.

Not entirely true on either count (particularly the second - they became the Knights of Christ which splintered much later), but as I said it's way more complex than that, and this is neither the place nor the time.

As to the issue of Shamans within the clergy I've explained my position several times (here and here). However as Doc Funk has pointed out there is nothing inherently wrong with a non-clerical Catholic being a shaman (except the Church itself won't like it) and it is even within the realm of possibility that the more flexible Orders like the Sylvestrines (as opposed to the conservative New Jesuits or fanatics like the New Templars) might be more accepting of a shaman (although he'd be seen as a shaman of St. Anthony following similar ideals to those the Eagle totem represents - and never an "Eagle shaman"). However as I've explained in the threads above there are many reasons why such a shaman would be an exception in the Sixth World.

You got a quote on that?

Look, I hear what you're saying, and I understand why you have such trouble reconciling the two, but your failure of imagination does not mean it is not possible, especially in a fictional setting such as the SR universe.

Of course your Catholic Eagle Shaman has to obey the strictures of his totem, that's the path God (big 'G' Catholic God) has set for him. Disobeying them is disobeying God (big 'G' again, not Eagle god, Trinity God), and THAT is a sin. The totem does not require devotion, though some might desire it, and making sweeping statements like 'they are irreconcilable' is not only inaccurate, but foolhardy. You work at it enough, you can reconcile almost any beleif with another.

Now, I admit that I know very little about Native American totem worship. I do, however, know a great deal about Roman Catholicism. Catholicism can be integrated with other religions (mostly by absorbing aspects of them into itself, witness several saints and most Holidays). Thus a Roman Catholic Eagle Shaman is very possible, though likely out of the ordinary.

You might be thinking about Baal. As far as I can remember the truth of other god´s (than God) existence is neither confirmed nor denied in the Old Testament, God just wants all people´s undivided attention because he´s the creator. I do think however, that Paul and the others were pretty clear about God´s sole claim to devinity in the New.

Crimsondude: The shaman might have to abide by the totem strictures, but as long as he does not desire the acceptance of the church I think he could read the bible all he likes and call himself a catholic. The totem wouldn´t mind that do you think?