Otaku Mike´s thread made me want to put this request in the light of day. Could we see a core book that takes a more general view of the sixth world? A book that truely can be the one and only center of all the rules and fluff no matter were you choose to play? If for example most trolls in Tir na Nog are fomori and those in Greece are minotaurs etc, I would like those to be equaly solid parts of the game world as the "normal" trolls in this edition.

Shadows of Europe was great but never gave the meta-variants much grounding in the game world, and nether did the companion. This would be a great opportunity to fix that.

According to Synner, Metavariants are not the majority, even in their respective 'home environments'. They are, as the name implies, variants, and are not the norm, or the default for the races in question.

I guess I won´t get my way then.

The center of what I want is another matter though. Is there any chance they will look at the entire scope of the game world and bring the most essential stuff from all over, into the core book. Instead of just having basicly the same content as before, but with different rules and some extra back story? So we might not get the meta-variants in there, if they´re so rare. Ok. One of the biggest reasons for me wanting that is that it would be a good sign of them bringing into view the whole of the sixth world instead of just Seattle. It could be a vehicle for bringing in global cultural differences in the rule book. Better to do that by having rules that reflect the differences in the book, instead of just having a text in the beginning saying a few things about the global situation. It would change the feel of the game in such a way that any setting would feel equally viable, I think.

<<<edit>>> I wouldn´t mind if they became less of simple curiosities as stated in the heading. It´s time the oddball creatures of Shadowrun started developing a deeper sense of identity. It would simply be more fun to play them that way. They are silly the way they are, but they´re really a good idea if you think about it. Stop calling them variants and increase the numbers I say.

Personally I thought the metavariants (and the changelings) have been a bad idea since 2nd edition and vehemently oppose any measures taken to make them more desirable to play. Of course I tend to run high racism games so I could still use character based reasons to discourage the use of them but I'd rather not get into the neat kewl race/archetype combos. Of course I'd actually been in favor of reducing some of the more insane stats of the standard metahumans.

I´m for making meta-variants a more integrated part of the game world instead of them just being "kewl", different looks for your character! In my view, it´s the only way to go, sense they can´t just take them away, and having them like they are (which is: a bunch of stats and an ugly image) would be dauntingly bad, so bad.

Arrg. Metavariants are better as a curiosities that can be easily ignored IMO.

We can't have them be the norm for whole geographical regions. Otherwise the standard Elves, Dwarves, Trolls and Orks are the norm for which geographical region, huh? The regions for which the authors couldn't think of a kewl new race?

Personnally, I don't think metavariants make very good runner for a simple reason.

Cyclop player : "How come the bad guys can so easily track me down?"
GM : "There are maybe 30 cyclops in the whole city, 15 of which are male, and only you who is cybered, weight lifting every day, above aevrage height for a cyclop and known in criminal and gang circles."

I personally like the metavariants more or less as they stand. Bringing them into the basic book could be a good idea IF all the creation rules will appear in it with no future expansions, but since that probably is imposible due to space limits (for example, we'll probably keep on using SSG if we want to personalize lifestyles) I'd keep them out so more important things can go in the book.

As for a wider scope, it's interesting, surely, but would take way too many space. Of course a description of Europe wouldn't be so in-detail as in SoE, surely, but it wouldn't be covered in less than a couple pages, probably. Add into that SoLA, SoNA and SoA and we get an enormous history section... and nothing a bit detailed so new players can start playing. I'd say that the need for a centering around the UCAS (Seattle specially) is quite high if you're to keep a low wordcount on it. And that surely is a pity.

Charon: Granted. The only thing that´s good with the current way of things is that they are easy to ignore. Shadowrun is walking a thin line and does not want to become to much fantasy. So they have made a game with moderate amount of integral fantasy parts. Then they´ve loaded tons of fantasy stuff on top of that for people to pick and choose from, of which nothing is explained or really fits in anywere. I wish they would be more concistant from now on. And have the fantasy elements they do introduce thuroughly explained. The variaty is fine in some ways, but an example of what I mean is that I would rather have a critter book with 30 thuroughly explained beings, than one with hundreds of stats with a few words of description and a name.

Sepherim: Sure, it would take a lot of space. If you described every country and location in a separate chapter. But I´m sure the book will be mostly rules anyway. A detailed location could certainly be bought in a separate book. I would like a lot of the rules for chinese and european magic and such things to be included. Just take any area specific rules that can be found scattered around the recent books and compile them in the new edition (new variants of the rules at least). Make it so you have all the basic rules you need in the core book no matter which location you choose to play in.

i'm sorry mintcar, i agree with the majority on this one.

while i think that meta-variants should stay/be fleshed out a little more, i think that the core book should be reserved for the standard world.

i would support adding a "world" section that quickly touches on areas besides north america...but i wouldn't miss it if they didn't add one.

What should then be done to the problem of me currently needing to go through like 6 books for all I need to run a game in Europe? Maybe we could see a World of Shadowrun book, with all the extra races, traditions, gear and rules existing outside of North America?

I like the Meta-variants. I think they add a nice flavor to the game and to those who complain about them, they are very easy to ignore and exclude from the game. What I find myself doing is altering them, because I have a lot of Dungeons and Dragons players in my group, they don't like "The Night Ones" so with a few modifications you get "drow". While that goes against my better judgement, it works. I don't think the Meta-variants should be in the Core Book however. I think anything that "adds" to the game world should be in a different book.

I'd just as soon the lot of them get swept under the rug, the rug get stamped on then lit on fire. There's no need for them. Call them regional names for metaspecies, if you have to, but they don't need their own crazy mutations and their own stat mods, etc, etc, etc. They bring a whole new angle of anime/fantasy munchkinism into it that I don't, personally, feel there's any sort of need for.

I love it how when somebody doesn't like something, it's obviously munchkiny.

Right. 'Cause none of the Metavariants are just "base metarace, but better."

Night Ones ("Ooh, I have what for my Quickness?"), Dryads (which we've seen twinked on here for just stupid Charisma bonuses before), Cyclops (who seem to almost all be melee physads, strange that I don't see that in their write-up), Gnomes (who are universally Albino, and spellcasters, of course)... there's no potential for munchkinism there, and everyone only ever takes them for the deep role playing experience.

Sorry. But I just don't see a need for them. I'd be all for them being regional names, maybe even looks-oriented regional variants...but they don't need their own stat line. When they get their own statline, the devs can go one of two ways, better than the metaracial base, or worse than it. When they go worse than it, no one plays them. When they go better than it (which they did, in several cases), too many people play them (and then min/max them some more, and play them outside their traditional region, etc, etc, etc).

I think the game's fine without them.

I've taken them without being munchkin before.

It's up to the GM to deliver the line they have the authority to use: "No." If it isn't used, you end up with Gnome Albino Ghoul Shamans that can use Blood Magic then eat their victims for lunch.

Is it FASA/FanPro's fault if they introduce something and a few players take it and twink it to death? Is it their fault if the game is twinked at all? No! It's the fault of the GM for not putting his foot down and telling a player "No."

If you think it needs to be removed because of a few erstwhile players, maybe you should rethink things a bit. There is no game police/lynch mob (though sometimes it'd be nice), and therefore anything in another game does not have to be used whatsoever.

Hell, you could houserule it and tell somebody they can't use Metavariants in your game because, well, it's your game.

If you do not have the testicular strength (sorry to any female GMs out there) to tell somebody that they cannot play the Cyclops Melee Demon, then maybe you shouldn't be a GM.

You're a little touchy on this one, aren'tcha?

Here's a thread for people to share their opinions and ideas for metavariants (for what our opinions and ideas are worth), for SR4. I did so. Calm the fuck down.

No, I'm touchy when people claim something is munchkiny because they don't like it or because -- god forbid! -- somebody used it once in a munchkiny fashion.

Not everybody who uses Metavariants are munchkins. Some do it for flavor, some for style, some just for the hell of it.

If you honestly believe everybody that has ever used a Metavariant uses it to twink, then you've lost touch with reality. Dumpshock is not every player out there. Hell, I bet it isn't even close to a quarter, and probably not even an eighth.

My mistake. I didn't realize this was the lovey-dovey smooch and hug "Metavariants rule, and can do no wrong," thread. I'll keep my opinions to myself about the subject from now on, since it's so obvious I'm in the wrong forum!

Oh, hey, wait! This is weird.

Why are you guys so worried about keeping the numbers, again? 'Cause I seem to recall saying "they would work as regional names and even cosmetic differences," but stating I think the numbers aren't called for because they seldom have much to do with role-playing, and more to do with roll-playing. You guys, on the other hand, are insisting in the same breath that people don't pick a metavariant just for the numbers boost and that the numbers boost has to stay.

So, ask yourself: would you still make that Gnome/Night One/Giant, if they had the same stat mods and numbers as a Dwarf/Elf/Troll, cost no points, and the change was purely cosmetic?

I could care less about the stat modifiers. The biggest reason people hate them is because they are presented in such a totally unattractive matter. Hire a good artist to do pictures of them and write at least a page each of story and explanation. I mean, in a game that has fantasy elements like different races and monsters, it would be crazy not to have regional differences around the globe. Why would you see exactly the same races if you travel to another continent? And what about all the different nationalities inhabiting a metroplex, what use is multiculturalism if there is no variaty? There´s variaty in all other areas, why the heck not in metahumans? I think it´s a very good idea to give different regions in the game world something to call their own in terms of awakenings. Now, I know you said you would accept them as regional variants only with the same stats. Good. It´s setteled then. Except I don´t know why you would rather want that, but ok.

<<edit>> That would probably mean that the stats were less reflecting the description. So I think it would be worse, myself.

So, hold on. You guys claim to be three for three, with all of you saying you'd play metaracial variants for the name, the looks, and the deep role-playing opportunity (and not the stats).

Why was it such a big deal when I called the stats munchkinny, then?

I never said it was a big deal. I've always said they were a non-issue for me. I just don't want them removed from the game because people like you are whining about them being munchkiny.

Well, maybe if someone could show that they aren't munchkinny (instead of just saying they aren't), my opinion would change.

How many times have you seen a thread or something on here, designed solely to show how broken a combo can be, start with a metavariant? "Make the fastest character you can!" invariably uses a Night One for a basis. "Drain is slowing my mage down, help me with a new character!" always uses a Gnome (and normally an Albino one). "What's the highest Strength you can have as a starting character?" ends up with a Cyclops center stage.

Metavariants tend to show up when someone wants a very specialized character. Someone wants a higher Quickness than god (or misses D&D Drow), they go for a Night One. That's what I've seen. That's all I've seen. I have no problem with the fluff/background/idea of metavariants. Their implementation was flawed, and I think the numbers behind them are flawed.

Naturally, I'm "whining" instead of "stating an opinion" like everyone else, because Doc Fuckenstein says so.

Once again: Quit focusing on the attribute modifiers. What part of "non-issue" are you just not getting there?

I want the option for metavariants in the core rules. That's all. Completely new rules, written from scratch. Brand new. Not what you know, or what was in the game previously.

Is this concept really that foreign to you?

If my calling the numbers munchkinny matters so little to you, why bring it up and say I'm whining about it (when we, apparently, agree about what we'd like to see for metavarients in the future)?

If you say a person's whining, Doc, they're going to fucking respond. Is that concept really that foreign to you?

I never said they were good characters (quite the opposite, in fact). I just said they existed, and that they had more potential to be abused than their standard metaraces (in my opinion, which is what we're all here to share).

And -- again -- I'm all for metavariants, and I even don't mind them being in the core book (if the have to be anywhere), as long as it's made clear how rare they're supposed to be. I just don't like them having their own stats.

Night ones, are over priced for what they do for wet dreams street ninjas. I mean you get one extra point of quickness for 7 character points. 5 for playing a meta variant, and 2 for a flaw. If I was playing by numbers I just play a normal elf and get SmUt with the points I would have spent on be a night one.

Dwarves are just munchien bait as they are. They cost five points and come with what 14 points worth of stats?

Well if we´re talking stats, I´d also vote dwarves to be the most overpowered of the races. But sense it´s new rules there is nothing that says we can´t have the stat mods redone. I´ll just add "more equal and sensible stat mods and racial abilities" to my wish list.

I wouldn´t want anything to change or be removed just because it can be abused though. Make the pros and cons as equal as possible. But don´t listen when someone says one race can´t have more quickness while another has more charisma, because quickness is better and that race gets picked by munchkins. Such arguments makes me tired.

Bummer you have such childish players, Critias. (If you have the problems you describe, I gather it is so?)

I've only ever actually had one show up in a game I was running, myself, in table-top. It's not like me and a circle of munchkin retards hang out and toss dice regularly, or something.

It's just that when I've seen them -- brought up as character examples on here, posted as character "tell me what you think" sheets, played in on-line games elsewhere on the net -- they've pretty much always been horribly min/maxed towards whatever attribute it is the _____________ (insert metaracial variant here) twinked towards.

Given the shallow treatment they've gotten in the only sourcebook to directly mention them, given how little (if ever -- I don't remember a single one) they've showed up in novels or even other sourcebooks... between how I've seen them played and how I've seen them presented in source material (which is to say "not presented), I can't help but think the only reason people play them is for the numbers. The fluff/background/setting itself doesn't say much to contradict me.

I admit (and have done so, from the get-go), that that's just my opinion, and just shaped by my own experiences.

Critias: You´re SO right in that regard. I cross my fingers it will change.

They have a fomori and a centaur in the Council of Princes. A giant leads a major labour party in Scandinavian Union. Other small tidbits have been spread around the sourcebooks. They are sneaking into the fluff of the different settings. Now they need to get a worthy treatment, so that you get a decent chance to play them or use them as a GM in an interesting way yourself.

From your admittedly limited experiences with them is a pretty powerful term.

Remember, variants are even more rare than normal metahumans, so that should reflect in the Shadowrun fluff material.

And, honestly... If the GM is allowing variants, he's probably allowing Edges and Flaws. If you pay 5 points for a measly few extra points in Attributes, I find those points to be much better spent elsewhere.

Let's not forget that variants are the new freaks in town, as well as anybody with any obvious SURGE effects. As such, there tends to be a higher amount of racism against them.

That is the tough part. Making them effective yet not get slaughtered by racist people who think they'll infect their children or something equally ridiculous.

My huge bone with 3rd Ed are the stat mods and ability of being a certain race. In 2nd, every meta got a net +3 to their stats and had to pick Race C or pay 10 points to be a meta. Now, in 3rd, Joe Schmoe (Resources A, Attributes B, Skills C; or any variant thereof) can be a Dwarf or an Ork with no loss of points anywhere. Sure, sure, he can still be a human. But if you want to min/max that badly, why? Just use up that D slot to be a Dwarf or an Ork.

I would definitely like to see the racial mods changed and balanced a bit more, for all the races including metavarients. I have created a metavarient exactly once, because I liked the idea of a koburokuru who escaped from whatever Island it is they put metas on in Japan. I would have much rather they have lower stats and I not have to pay extra points for something I just though was a cool concept. In my opinion they should do their best to balance out all the races so that none of them give you a net gain (with the possible exception of trolls, they're so damn big it's hard for them not to get net gain), preferably with a minimum of mental stat modification. I might play metas more often (although probably not much more often) if I didn't have to take the priority cost for the sake of a role-playing concept.

I'm with Critias on this. I'm okay with flavor description, and names that changes according to geographical area. But no different stats.

You want to be a gnome? Fine, pick a dwarf, make him shorter than average, Don't invest too many points in Strenghts and body and say he's a gnome from la-la land. I don't care. Writing description about meta variants open new horizon that the player might not have tought about, granted. But giving them a whole new range of stats does them a disservice. It's disingeneous to even pretend that the majority of gnome players aren't picking the race just for the stats. When I'll see a cybered assassin gnome, I'll know I'm dealing with someone who picked the race for roleplaying purpose. But at this point I have only seen gnomes who are Willpower 8 mage. Exclusively.

And yeah, I can say no. I always say no to that kind of thing. Telling players to use the base metahuman, invest their stats in a non typical fashion, buy the exceptional attribute edge and change the physical description of the baseline meta is already what I do. And whaddya know, metavariant are few and far in between the only one I've seen were truly for roleplaying concept. What a surprise.

That being said, I don't like having to say 'no' more often than I need to so it'd be nice if the designers thought about game balance a little more. You can't hope for the same kind of game balance as that found in D&D due to the classless system, but still, balanced starting race should be a bare minimum.

I'm ok with the variants having very slightly different attributes, but I don't think they should be universally better, and overall it would probably make them easier if they just had the same attributes with a slightly altered appearance. If I were writing them I would go with Critias and Charon and just give them the same attributes as the base race, but I can handle them being different if they aren't better.

Again, I simply can´t understand why you want that. ???

But you don´t really need to explain. There is very little disagreement on this thread. In short we would all like the meta-variants to be introduced in the main book, if only a short mentioning. A little heads up for new players. And when they are introduced I think we would all like better pictures and a bit of info. Yes they are essentially human, but it would be much easier to picture them actually inhabiting the world if there was some info on the country they come from and they´re place in that society. As well as some cultural exentricities they might have developed as a group looking alike. No?

I had someone that wanted to play a damn gnome otaku for the will bonus. ummmm..... lemme think, NO!

I like the variant races, but I think they're abused too much. I don't like having to pay extra for them, just because I think it's a waste. I think a lot of them are designed to give players a chance to play a variant of the main race they like, but with less of the extremes on the attributes (ork/oni).

Although I don't think that they should be in the main book, or that they should be the same stats as the 'stock race'. I think it's more just something the GM has to allow/disallow depending what the player is wanting to do with and (and why). I think keeping them out of the core rules keeps it more side lined. That's the way I handle it, and all I've had as far as variants is a cyclops named Uno, who was no worst than any other Troll type. But maybe I just think that because I haven't had any serious abuse of it yet (besides the gnome otaku).

I agree with Critias and Charon. Having regional variations is only to be expected but why the difference in stats? I do think they should be mentioned in the core book if there is space for them to be done justice.

Once again: Stats don't matter. Not one bit. That is such a miniscule, non-existant point of what a metavariant is that I can't even fathom why some of you keep clutching onto it as if were the sole point of a metavariant's existance... and thus the entire reason not to bother with them.

Metavariants are also a little different than a standard race with a different hair color. Some characteristics need stats and rules, such as a satyr's legs or a cyclop's vision.

Metavariants exist in the world. In many key positions and storylines. They're a reality of the game world, and not just fluff buried in a single optional rulebook. They do not deserve to be ignored simply because a handful of people can't get over some powergamer they once met who used it to get an extra +1 Quickness or whatever.

*shakes hands with Doc Funk*

That's a nice opinion, Doc. Thanks for sharing it with us. Again.