Full Version: Meta-variants in the core rules
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Night Ones ("Ooh, I have what for my Quickness?"), Dryads (which we've seen twinked on here for just stupid Charisma bonuses before), Cyclops (who seem to almost all be melee physads, strange that I don't see that in their write-up), Gnomes (who are universally Albino, and spellcasters, of course)... there's no potential for munchkinism there, and everyone only ever takes them for the deep role playing experience. |
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Why was it such a big deal when I called the stats munchkinny, then? |
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| If my calling the numbers munchkinny matters so little to you, why bring it up and say I'm whining about it (when we, apparently, agree about what we'd like to see for metavarients in the future)? |
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| It's just that when I've seen them -- brought up as character examples on here, posted as character "tell me what you think" sheets, played in on-line games elsewhere on the net -- they've pretty much always been horribly min/maxed towards whatever attribute it is the _____________ (insert metaracial variant here) twinked towards. |
etc.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| That's a nice opinion, Doc. Thanks for sharing it with us. Again. |
Anytime. Just following your lead.
The difference being I've admitted, repeatedly, mine is just an opinion. You spout your stance like it's gospel, while quietly belittling anyone who disagrees with you by way of a few adjectives and verbs here and there, making them look and sound ridiculous and incorrect.
I've always found metavarients to be underpowered.
I've only played one he was a former secutity counsultant greek cyclops.
Never again. Have you tried shooting with them, its night on impossible with out serious boneses.
I don't know what the big problem is, they're great as occasional npc's to add flavor and destinction.
I've only played one he was a former secutity counsultant greek cyclops.
Never again. Have you tried shooting with them, its night on impossible with out serious boneses.
I don't know what the big problem is, they're great as occasional npc's to add flavor and destinction.
| QUOTE (NightHaunter @ Mar 24 2005, 08:03 AM) |
| I've always found metavarients to be underpowered. I've only played one he was a former secutity counsultant greek cyclops. Never again. Have you tried shooting with them, its night on impossible with out serious boneses. I don't know what the big problem is, they're great as occasional npc's to add flavor and destinction. |
If you tried to make a cyclop security consultant who is relying mostly on ranged weapons, let me shake your hand, you are the first I player I hear of who did that.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| The difference being I've admitted, repeatedly, mine is just an opinion. You spout your stance like it's gospel, while quietly belittling anyone who disagrees with you by way of a few adjectives and verbs here and there, making them look and sound ridiculous and incorrect. |
I'm sorry. <offers you a hug and a lollipop> Let's be friends.
I like how he quoted the whole "quietly belittling" thing and then offered the hug and lollipop.
It's so refreshing to see some subtlety instead of a two hundred line rant. It's always comforting to know that there are people in the world who appreciate more than the Force 12 sledgehammer of doom 
omg you are teh intraweb winnar!!!111
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Mar 24 2005, 07:00 AM) |
| Once again: Stats don't matter. Not one bit. That is such a miniscule, non-existant point of what a metavariant is that I can't even fathom why some of you keep clutching onto it as if were the sole point of a metavariant's existance... and thus the entire reason not to bother with them. |
Non-existant point? clutching onto it?
In my experience stats are roughly 90% of what a metavariant is. That's an estimation based on the decrease in interest to play metavariants in my campaign when I said it is okay to be a variant but they'd still use the base meta stats, modified by edge/flaws and flavor description.
You can repeat that stats don't matter over and over like a mantra, it doesn't make it true.
All the player have to base their choice of a metavariant on is a so-so artwork, 2 paragraph of fluff text and stats. What carries the more weight, according to you? The awesome roleplaying possibilities unlocked in a player's mind by the picture of a cyclop or the fact that he is the strongest meta in the book? Let's be serious here.
As for not bothering with them because of the stats, that's just not true. I'm OK with variants. Just not with the current stats. If the players are allowed full access, it create a Star Wars syndrome where everyone shops the best stats for their specialty.
If you are serious about playing meta just for roleplaying purposes and strory motivations, then I'm faxing you a pat on the back. And if you are serious, you would obviously accept to play a variant that has baseline modifier, right?
After all, if you put more or less points in an attribute, your PC will have more or less points than average. I can get a STR 10 troll and a STR 10 Cyclop just as easily. The only reason you would fight tooth and nail for the Cyclop modified stats is that your primary concern is a STR of 12, not roleplaying.
Yes, a certain few of the variants (cyclops, satyr) require some modification from their base race, and in those cases it can be done, as long as they keep them balanced, which they aren't. Actually, speaking of the cyclops and satyr, as far as I'm concerned those two can be gotten rid of without me shedding a tear. Satyr already exist as a critter without needing to be a metavariant, if they want them to be playable the should make rules for playing sentient critters (at least those within reason). Cyclops I just plain don't like (this is my personal opinion, I know some people probably like the idea of playing one). Their single eye leeds to irritating and inaccurate rule (beyond around 15 or 20 feet, monocular vision is no different than binocular as they both have to rely on distance clues rather than different input into the eye). I also tend to think they should be even bigger (around 15-20' tall), and that is not reasonable for a PC) Dryads are the other one I could do without, they are totally outside of the idea of SR, they're allergic to cities for god's sake. For playable variants, leave out the purely fluff that don't fit the concept of the game, make them consistent, and try to make them as balanced as possible (preferably with as few mods in either direction for mental stats as possible, I just don't see much reason why the different races should have different mental stats, they are all human at base)
Doc, if you don't think the attributes matter at all, then why do you seem to feel so strongly that they shouldn't be changed or fixed? If one truly didn't care the logical reaction would be "sure, go ahead and change them, because they are unimportant," not "why do you guys harp against the stats so much."
Doc, if you don't think the attributes matter at all, then why do you seem to feel so strongly that they shouldn't be changed or fixed? If one truly didn't care the logical reaction would be "sure, go ahead and change them, because they are unimportant," not "why do you guys harp against the stats so much."
| QUOTE (Charon) | ||
Non-existant point? clutching onto it? In my experience stats are roughly 90% of what a metavariant is. That's an estimation based on the decrease in interest to play metavariants in my campaign when I said it is okay to be a variant but they'd still use the base meta stats, modified by edge/flaws and flavor description. |
I have seen 10 or 11 drawven PCs. 8 of those were riggers. No, not munchenky at all.
But in the end, just because something can be broken doesn't mean it is broken. Just because you play with power players, it doesn't mean that everyone plays with power players. And if you do happen play power players, limiting what they can or can't play will not make them any less power gamer, it will just make them play something else.
ANd so what if your troll has a body of 15, and 20 points of armour. Do tell me what his will is? Do tell me, what he will do when facing die pazers with 40 armour points and a rail gun?
| QUOTE (Cynic project @ Mar 24 2005, 05:03 PM) |
| I have seen 10 or 11 drawven PCs. 8 of those were riggers. No, not munchenky at all. ... ANd so what if your troll has a body of 15, and 20 points of armour. Do tell me what his will is? Do tell me, what he will do when facing die pazers with 40 armour points and a rail gun? |
You start on target than deviate wildly. Troll's body and armour? WTF?
Systematically matching the meta variant with the profession is exactly what annoys me.
If you open the metavariant buffet to the players you end up with legions of gnome and wakyambi mage, cyclop swordmaster etc.
If a variant is better than baseline at something, you get swamped with concept that take advantage of that whereas if you just use baseline stats with fluff modifications it doesn't happen. Simple, no?
BTW : For my part I have never seen a dwarven rigger in my campaign. I don't even see what's munchkiny about a dwarven rigger considering the cost of being a dwarf is better spent on ressources and skills. +1 Will/Body doesn't really compare to that.
Mmm... +1 will/body, +2 strength, thermo vision, disease/toxin resistance. Only downside is a x2 run multiplier. Same priority/cost as an ork. It always looked kind of out of whack to me, YMMV
| QUOTE (DrJest @ Mar 24 2005, 07:05 PM) |
| Mmm... +1 will/body, +2 strength, thermo vision, disease/toxin resistance. Only downside is a x2 run multiplier. Same priority/cost as an ork. It always looked kind of out of whack to me, YMMV |
I guess. My campaign puts a high premium on hauling ass when the shit hits the fan. That running multiplier penalty looks very bad to my players.
To be honest, when I said I had never seen a Dwarven rigger in my campaign, I was being disingenuous. I've never seen a Dwarven PC, period! That's in, I think, roughly 8 campaign and 50+ PCs.
I've never said a bad word about dwarves and I've had a few fun Dwarven NPC. But all my players look at the running multiplier and only think about the dozens of occasion when their previous PCs would have been killed if they ran at X2 instead of X3.
Meh, their choice. I think they are fairly balanced. Being at a net +4 attributes, plus thermo and toxin resistance for a priority cost of 1 on sum to 10 is, I think, enough advantage over other metas to balance out losing the running multiplier but all my players seems to think that nothing is worth losing the running multiplier.
It's called Shadowrun after all.
| QUOTE |
| Doc, if you don't think the attributes matter at all, then why do you seem to feel so strongly that they shouldn't be changed or fixed? |
You might want to go back and read what I've been saying since my first post on the subject. Because if you think that's what I've been saying, you must have me confused with someone else.
You know, specifically the parts where I suggested that special attribute modifiers don't even need to be a part of what a metavariant is because such attribute modifiers are meaningless fluff. As opposed to offering an edge/flaw mechanic for unique racial features (satyr legs, mono-vision, colored fur, large/small sizes, etc.) so that you can "build" your metavariant from a base race. Then, yanno, using some of the core metavariant races of examples of how to build one.
You know, stuff like that. New system. New rules. I don't have the obsession some of the people around here seem to have or expect for cutting-and-pasting rules from one edition to the other.
Sorry Doc, had been to long since I looked back at the beginning of the thread ;-}
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| Meh, their choice. I think they are fairly balanced. Being at a net +4 attributes, plus thermo and toxin resistance for a priority cost of 1 on sum to 10 is, I think, enough advantage over other metas to balance out losing the running multiplier but all my players seems to think that nothing is worth losing the running multiplier. It's called Shadowrun after all. |
That is why riggers are normally in things like cars,cans or APCs... How fast you run doesn't really matter when you are in car all the time. How fast you run doesn't make your crones faster.
So much like painting your drones red, doesn't make them go faster. Having shorter legs doesn't make them go slower.
| QUOTE (Cynic project @ Mar 25 2005, 04:35 PM) |
| That is why riggers are normally in things like cars,cans or APCs... How fast you run doesn't really matter when you are in car all the time. How fast you run doesn't make your crones faster. So much like painting your drones red, doesn't make them go faster. Having shorter legs doesn't make them go slower. |
In the passage you were quoting, I was talking about Dwarven runner in general.
I already explained why dwarf rigger in particular are uncommon in my experience in the previous post : all of the bonuses of the dwarf are barely useful for a rigger while the priority point invested in race would have been more useful if invested in Skill or ressources.
Do you play with the Letter priority system of the core book? If so, yeah, you might be flooded with rigger dwarves or ork street sam because once you put the lowest priority in magic you might as well pick a dwarf or ork for race. But if you play sum to 10, you won't see as many of them in my experience. To a lesser extent, this is also true of the point build.
| QUOTE (Cynic Project) |
| So much like painting your drones red, doesn't make them go faster. Having shorter legs doesn't make them go slower. |
Come on now, do you think I'm a 9 year old ?
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| Come on now, do you think I'm a 9 year old ? |
No, but just making it clear why dwarves are best as riggers.
And I play by points.
I rather enjoy playing a metavariant, for no other reason than because it is not the norm. I have/had a Minotaur metavariant. That was until he got surged......Oh the fun there.
As for the "munchkin" thing. It is ultimatly up to the GM to regulate characters in thier games correct.
On a semi-relatd topic is there a thread for Shapers on here, I have looked and cannot find one, please advise.
As for the "munchkin" thing. It is ultimatly up to the GM to regulate characters in thier games correct.
On a semi-relatd topic is there a thread for Shapers on here, I have looked and cannot find one, please advise.
IMO dwarves are usually riggers due to the fact of vehicle are a lot faster and usually have soem armor, and the dwarves are not then subject to the Body vs twice the damage rule.
I just realized that in my group, meta attribute modefiers have more often than not acted as a minimum rather than a maximum. Just because a troll has the potential for an outragous body rating, doesn´t mean he(/she?) wouldn´t be well served by a high willpower and intelligence rating. The Shadowrun mechanics has done a good job making all attributes important.
| QUOTE (surfskin) |
| I rather enjoy playing a metavariant, for no other reason than because it is not the norm. I have/had a Minotaur metavariant. That was until he got surged......Oh the fun there. As for the "munchkin" thing. It is ultimatly up to the GM to regulate characters in thier games correct. On a semi-relatd topic is there a thread for Shapers on here, I have looked and cannot find one, please advise. |
There have been a few recent threads on 'shifters in the main forum.
Shapeshifters / Shapechangers
Character Critique
Metatypes can be used to make some interesting characters.
Doctor Curtis Wagner, MD. Aka The Bone Doctor.
A surged Minotaur Street Doc/Adept/Rocker with missile mastery and lots hypodermic needles.
Son of a wealthy German father and Greek mother Doctor Wager was a had a promising future ahead of him untill he Goblinized into a Minotaur to puberty. Still, his wealth was able to overcome prejudice and he became a doctor. Unfortunatly, he made an enemy out of a Greek orginized crime boss and was forced to flee to the UCAS with nothing but the clothes on his back. Along the way he was aflicted with Chronic Osteocuspis
In Seatle he is unable to obtain a liscense to practice medicine for two reasons. 1: He is a sinless immigrant. 2:He is a minotaur with giant bone spikes sticking out of his body. Thus, he works and lives at a free clinic in the Barrens.
The stat bonuses are also important to this characte because he only has a -1 to intelligence compared to a -2. Sure an int 4 doctor is possible but it doesn't work as well. Of course, Minotaurs are one of the metavarriants without potentially absurd stat bonuses.
Doctor Curtis Wagner, MD. Aka The Bone Doctor.
A surged Minotaur Street Doc/Adept/Rocker with missile mastery and lots hypodermic needles.
Son of a wealthy German father and Greek mother Doctor Wager was a had a promising future ahead of him untill he Goblinized into a Minotaur to puberty. Still, his wealth was able to overcome prejudice and he became a doctor. Unfortunatly, he made an enemy out of a Greek orginized crime boss and was forced to flee to the UCAS with nothing but the clothes on his back. Along the way he was aflicted with Chronic Osteocuspis
In Seatle he is unable to obtain a liscense to practice medicine for two reasons. 1: He is a sinless immigrant. 2:He is a minotaur with giant bone spikes sticking out of his body. Thus, he works and lives at a free clinic in the Barrens.
The stat bonuses are also important to this characte because he only has a -1 to intelligence compared to a -2. Sure an int 4 doctor is possible but it doesn't work as well. Of course, Minotaurs are one of the metavarriants without potentially absurd stat bonuses.
I came upon this thread looking to see if anyone had converted a gnome to 4th edition yet. Just thought I'd go ahead and chime in.
Just because you don't see them in your games, doesn't mean people don't use meta-variants as fun flavor variants. Maybe you just need to look in on a different group.
As a retired power gamer, I used to make Night One Agility demons ... now, I make characters with more ... character. A Fomori Street Doc who let underprivelaged families barter for medical services ...
Currently, I'm looking for/looking to convert Gnomes for 4th Ed because my usual power gamer (Ghoul with cyber-chainsaw ... uhm ...ok) wants to play a gnome street sam. There's hope for him yet.
Just because you don't see them in your games, doesn't mean people don't use meta-variants as fun flavor variants. Maybe you just need to look in on a different group.
As a retired power gamer, I used to make Night One Agility demons ... now, I make characters with more ... character. A Fomori Street Doc who let underprivelaged families barter for medical services ...
Currently, I'm looking for/looking to convert Gnomes for 4th Ed because my usual power gamer (Ghoul with cyber-chainsaw ... uhm ...ok) wants to play a gnome street sam. There's hope for him yet.
About the only mention of metavariants was the racism against them.
This does make me wonder. I wonder if you could portray metavariants in SR4 not as seperate races, but as Qualities that only certain base metahuman types could take?
Seems plausable.
Especially since they have expanded the use of Qualities past what Edges & Flaws covered with handling magic and techno aspects of characters. In many ways the metas are just groups of Exceptional Attributes that come with baggage.
Taking a Positive Quality for the racial characteristics, but also a Negative Quality for enhanced discrimination and uniqueness?
| QUOTE (JongWK @ Aug 30 2005, 02:37 PM) |
| Taking a Positive Quality for the racial characteristics, but also a Negative Quality for enhanced discrimination and uniqueness? |
Nah, i'd set it up as a package deal only. With slightly better benefits than drawbacks to justify a 5BP cost. There were already discrimination Flaws (and Sunlight alergies, etc.), and they sound like most Edges & Flaws were carried forward. So that part is already covered.
my understanding of how it is supposed to work for the time being, is make a dwarf and then modify stats acording to SR companion for Attribute adjustment. that is of course the quick and dirty method, but it works save for where agility, reaction, intuition and logic are concerned from there IMO it is up to the player to decide.
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