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Sepherim
Just seen the movie, and, as I was watching Batou move around I couldn't help but think one time and again about SR4s new Matrix. It seems like quite a good example of the new Matrix, don't you guys think?
Kagetenshi
Probably, unfortunately.

Not that I don't love GitS, but the tech level is much higher than Shadowrun.

~J
sidartha
Second Kage.
While cool, GitS is not shadowrun and the ability to do some of the things that Batu and Katsuragi(pardon me if I misspelled that) is wildly unbalancing
Kagetenshi
Batou and Kusanagi.

~J
Arethusa
You didn't misspell it so much as give her a new name. It's Kusanagi.

And, yes, while I would like to see SR take note of GitS and incorporate at least some concepts from it, the two are very incompatible.

[edit]

Curse you, Kage.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Arethusa)
And, yes, while I would like to see SR take note of GitS and incorporate at least some concepts from it, the two are very incompatible.


I agree with the taking the ideas but not so much on the fact that they are incompatible (with the exception of full body replacement).

Bring cyber limbs into being worth it. Adjust the essence loss of head comms which as it stands will cost you a bucket load of essence just to have a cybered Pocket Sec! It would take a reworking of the areas involved but not so much as ot be not doable.

[EDIT] Though to be fair i'm thinking more along SAC then Innocence which i havent seen yet.
hermit
QUOTE
(with the exception of full body replacement).

Which, under current (mainly M&M) rules, is possible, but anyway.

SAC? I recently tried to build a Tachikoma. Worked out reasonably well, though Robot Pilot 5 propably isn't AI, just an advanced SK. Scary what these things (maxed out robot pilots) get for pools!

Then again, until Twist did whatever Twist did to awaken her, Morgan was only an extremely advanced SK, too, so ...
Arethusa
The incompatibility I'm talking about exists more in terms of paradigm than necessarily in specific technologies (though the vast majority of technological concepts are incompatible with Shadowrun, at present, as well). This applies to SAC, though Innocence is a fair bit more extreme in many respects.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 31 2005, 06:29 AM)
SAC?

Stand Alone Complex

QUOTE
I recently tried to build a Tachikoma. Worked out reasonably well, though Robot Pilot 5 propably isn't AI, just an advanced SK. Scary what these things (maxed out robot pilots) get for pools!

This is something thats been bugging me for AGES Tachikoma/ Fushikoma is there a difference? I always thought it was Fushikoma but i've seen Tachikoma around a couple of times.

If anyone says one is made by Fushi, they get a virtual kick in the balls!

QUOTE (Arethusa)
The incompatibility I'm talking about exists more in terms of paradigm than necessarily in specific technologies

You mean Ghost Hacking right?
Arethusa
QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc @ Mar 31 2005, 02:04 AM)
QUOTE (Arethusa)
The incompatibility I'm talking about exists more in terms of paradigm than necessarily in specific technologies

You mean Ghost Hacking right?

No. I mean the concepts, paradigms, and themes that dominate Shirow's work (or at least GitS). Ghost hacking and its reflection on Shirow's/GitS's concepts of humanity and inhumanity, among other things, is one expression of this, but hardly the only one.

QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
QUOTE (hermit)
I recently tried to build a Tachikoma. Worked out reasonably well, though Robot Pilot 5 propably isn't AI, just an advanced SK. Scary what these things (maxed out robot pilots) get for pools!

This is something thats been bugging me for AGES Tachikoma/ Fushikoma is there a difference? I always thought it was Fushikoma but i've seen Tachikoma around a couple of times.

Wasn't it Fuchikoma? Also, as I recall, they were just called Fuchikoma in the manga and Tachikoma in SAC, but I could very well be wrong.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc @ Mar 31 2005, 02:04 AM)
This is something thats been bugging me for AGES Tachikoma/ Fushikoma is there a difference? I always thought it was Fushikoma but i've seen Tachikoma around a couple of times.

In the manga it was Fuchikoma. Since there was in the latest disc of SAC the episode where the Tachikoma get returned to the lab, I assume that the Fuchikoma are the more docile, streamlined later model (though not that docile, obviously). I fully expect them to be introduced before the end of SAC.

~J
badwithmath
Tachikoma is used in SAC.

The second season of SAC has a lot of interesting scenes that could be taken as visual cues for the new matrix. There are virtual meetings and some data hacking scenes that have helped me imagine how the current, SR3, matrix operates. I think people still need to "jack in" in order to access the net or to ghost hack another person's brain so this might not be as applicable to the new wireless matrix idea as you'd think.

One exception, now that I think of it, is the Laughing Man from SAC, who seemed to be able to access the net and ghost hack without plugging into a physical location. He could insert data files into other people's brains so they couldn't remember seeing him. Or he could just take away their sight, as he did to Batou. Substitute a building's security for a person's cyberbrain and the Laughing Man might be a good example for the new SR hackers. Its a powerful character concept.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (badwithmath)
One exception, now that I think of it, is the Laughing Man from SAC

Strikes Again!/HA-HA-HA?

What is it about guys with the name Laughing Man in cyberpunkish settings that they just have to break computer system rules everyone else is stuck with?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (badwithmath)
I think people still need to "jack in" in order to access the net or to ghost hack another person's brain so this might not be as applicable to the new wireless matrix idea as you'd think.

That's not actually true. You see better results from direct hacking, but there are definitely instances of remote hacking and computer use (see the tank episode when it peeps Pazuo's Eagle Eye data, or for that matter Pazuo's Eagle Eye system in the first place).

On the Tachikoma/Fuchikoma topic, the two are also of decidedly different design. The Fuchikoma is nontrivially smaller, lacks the bulge in the back, and is noticably a lot more cramped for the pilot.

~J
hermit
QUOTE
Tachikoma is used in SAC.

Yup. That's what I based them on.

QUOTE
What is it about guys with the name Laughing Man in cyberpunkish settings that they just have to break computer system rules everyone else is stuck with?

Actually, "Laughing Man" is a crappy translation of the Japanese name. I'll have to ask my friend for the japanese name, though.

QUOTE
One exception, now that I think of it, is the Laughing Man from SAC, who seemed to be able to access the net and ghost hack without plugging into a physical location. He could insert data files into other people's brains so they couldn't remember seeing him. Or he could just take away their sight, as he did to Batou. Substitute a building's security for a person's cyberbrain and the Laughing Man might be a good example for the new SR hackers. Its a powerful character concept.

Even in close-to-space-age GitS, this character was a very special, extremely competent hacker ("pinnacle of DNI interface hacker" is how he referred to himself; he was also a lab product of sorts). No way this should be the common SR4 hacker!

QUOTE
In the manga it was Fuchikoma. Since there was in the latest disc of SAC the episode where the Tachikoma get returned to the lab, I assume that the Fuchikoma are the more docile, streamlined later model (though not that docile, obviously). I fully expect them to be introduced before the end of SAC.

IIRC, they're still called Tachikoma in the second season. I guess it has to do with all this universe restart thing the Japanese love to do to popular movie worlds every once in a while (Kaiju movies are especially notorious for this). GitS-SAC assumers GitS 1 (and, possibly 2) never happened; they also changed Motoko's hair back to Manga violet from jet black (and set the hair style right too). There's no coherent canon in GitS.

QUOTE
That's not actually true. You see better results from direct hacking, but there are definitely instances of remote hacking and computer use (see the tank episode when it peeps Pazuo's Eagle Eye data, or for that matter Pazuo's Eagle Eye system in the first place).

I always wrote that off under EW and transmission hacking (Section 9 has it's members connected to each other, which makes them vulnerable for such attacks). Also, they were unprepared for this, so I guess this is rather extraordinary.

EDIT:
QUOTE
On the Tachikoma/Fuchikoma topic, the two are also of decidedly different design. The Fuchikoma is nontrivially smaller, lacks the bulge in the back, and is noticably a lot more cramped for the pilot.

Tachikoma are simply a complete remake of the Manga's Fuchikoma. They have a number of differences, one being the lack of machine guns in their mechanical arms.
Kagetenshi
She also doesn't dress nearly as well as she did in the movie. So it goes.

~J
mfb
they're tachikoma throughout SAC; GitS1 and 2 never occur, in the SAC timeline (though there are parallels, just as there are strong parallels between Innocence and Man-Machine Interface).

i really doubt that ghosthacking is going to be possible in SR4 to any extent greater than it is in SR3. that is, it's possible, but it takes hours, and the subject is going to know something's up.
Kagetenshi
Where is that stated, out of interest? I had personally just assumed that it followed the timeline of the original manga and that the SAC covered the time before the Puppet Master incident and the first movie.

~J
mfb
i read it in a site that i believe was official, several months ago. though i don't think there's anything in SAC or GitS1/2 that makes your idea impossible.
Shockwave_IIc
I agree with Mfb i've heard read it somewhere as well.

Although SAC, Gits (the manga), Gits 2 MMI, works
With the first film and Innocence being a different timeline.
hermit
Incidentally, those are the ones where Shirow had a prominent role in making them ...
Kagetenshi
At least as far as we've gotten in the English translation of SAC, as mfb says there's nothing that requires a different timeline. It'll be interesting to see if they do in fact split it at some point (all that's necessary to go into GitS from where we are now in SAC is for Pazuo and Borma to resign, die, or be transferred and the Tachikoma to be replaced by the latest model, the Fuchikoma).

~J
mfb
which ones? my favorite, of the three (manga, movies, anime) is SAC. the movies had too much pat philosophy, and i prefer my japanese cartoons without even the hint of silly big faces that the manga includes. though the manga is kickass.
Shockwave_IIc
Question. taking the assumption that an "E-Brain" is at least in part a snake eyes system, would it not be possible to hack the mass's ala Laughing Man? Since the mass's won't have Encryption you could do it via the Electronic warfare rules?
mfb
no. snake eyes only transmits sensory data. it might be possible to create illusions in a target's sensorium, but it wouldn't be possible to control them because there's no link to the target's motor functions.

and, actually, i'd assume that most people have at least encryption 3 on anything like that. though one might also assume that most people with wireless networks would take the basic step of using an encryption key...
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (mfb)
no. snake eyes only transmits sensory data. it might be possible to create illusions in a target's sensorium, but it wouldn't be possible to control them because there's no link to the target's motor functions.

and, actually, i'd assume that most people have at least encryption 3 on anything like that. though one might also assume that most people with wireless networks would take the basic step of using an encryption key...

Deus didn't have a link to it's puppets motor functions either. Though i do get your point and that Deus had perhaps alot for time to "condition" the responses.

Breaking encryption is possible though very unlikey.
Young Freud
QUOTE (hermit)
QUOTE
What is it about guys with the name Laughing Man in cyberpunkish settings that they just have to break computer system rules everyone else is stuck with?

Actually, "Laughing Man" is a crappy translation of the Japanese name. I'll have to ask my friend for the japanese name, though.

It's the Laughing Man. The name actually translates into "the smiling man", but it's the Japanese name of the J.D. Salinger short story, "The Laughing Man". Since Salinger references play a big part of SAC (even the Laughing Man logo includes the "deaf-mute" line from Catcher in the Rye), it's the correct translation.
Slacker
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 31 2005, 04:30 AM)
At least as far as we've gotten in the English translation of SAC, as mfb says there's nothing that requires a different timeline.

Actually, there is one key fact that prevents the timelines from being the same. The character Togusa. In the original movie it specifically says that he had just joined Section 9.

The whole reason they went with a new timeline for SAC was so that they could have both Kusanagi and Togusa in the series without having to come up with a reason for Kusanagi to return to Section 9 after the first movie.

I remember reading that on the official Stand Alone Complex sight.
Kagetenshi
Ah, you're right. Bah. Damn rookies, always screwing things up.

~J
mfb
Deus didn't directly control his minions, he brainwashed them into doing his bidding.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Slacker)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 31 2005, 04:30 AM)
At least as far as we've gotten in the English translation of SAC, as mfb says there's nothing that requires a different timeline.

Actually, there is one key fact that prevents the timelines from being the same. The character Togusa. In the original movie it specifically says that he had just joined Section 9.

The whole reason they went with a new timeline for SAC was so that they could have both Kusanagi and Togusa in the series without having to come up with a reason for Kusanagi to return to Section 9 after the first movie.

I remember reading that on the official Stand Alone Complex sight.

Slacker beat me to this. Damnit.
mfb
yeah, forgot about that. Togusa's the perpetual rookie. though he's seasoned up a lot, by 2nd Gig, so i guess that makes him a non-perpetual rookie.

that's one thing i like about SAC--it shows, but never comes out and says, why it is that the Major pulled him into S9. i mean, that Interceptor thing? that was all him.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (mfb)
Deus didn't directly control his minions, he brainwashed them into doing his bidding.

With a do this or receive pain. It's been done for ages.

I point a gun at you and say "get me a beer or i'll shoot you in the knee" what do you do? Get me a beer. I've got my desired response, by the threat of inflicting pain. wether or not a can is debatable.
mfb
right. but that's not brainhacking.
moosegod
Go away, anime! That's all I have to say. You wanna play GitS, go play BESM, for the love of Ghost!
hermit
QUOTE
Go away, anime! That's all I have to say.

Fine, you said your piece. Now you can go and leave us to continue discussing Shirow manga and anime.

QUOTE
You wanna play GitS, go play BESM, for the love of Ghost

I read illiteracy was skyrocketing, but meh, didn't think it would show on a READ-ONLY forum!
Disclaimer: In case you failed to get that subtle hint, read the thread. None of us wants to play GitS, we just talk about it. If you want to play forum police and tell us what to talk about, we so don't care.
Kagetenshi
Yeah! And while we're at it, go away books! 'Cause they're, like, a genre too!

~J
Vuron
Personally I'd love for a Shirowpunk style game to be published. If you want magic in it you could easily go with a merger of GitS and Silent Moebius as they are pretty combatible.

Besides from a strict art perspective Shirow is super duper double plus good unless you have some of the Intron Depot Tentacle Pron stuff sneak into the game world smile.gif
hermit
Shirow is among my favourite drawers, but some others are pretty good too, particularily Naoki Kurasawa and Yukito Kushiro (the latter's Battle Angel Alita, while way out there in many respects, could offer some ideas for Shadowrun nonetheless). And of course Hayao Miyazaki.

And I second the demand for the GitS/Silent Moebius merger. That would be a kickass game. biggrin.gif
Mr. Man
QUOTE (mfb)
yeah, forgot about that. Togusa's the perpetual rookie. though he's seasoned up a lot, by 2nd Gig, so i guess that makes him a non-perpetual rookie.

Seasoned, eh? Togusa didn't seem too seasoned in 2nd Gig ep. 10 when he got repeatedly schooled by a defense lawyer until the Major took over. He seemed more like the only cop who had never seen the inside of a courtroom.
QUOTE
that's one thing i like about SAC--it shows, but never comes out and says, why it is that the Major pulled him into S9. i mean, that Interceptor thing? that was all him.

While maybe not perfectly explicit, they did come close 13 minutes into the first SAC episode. Togusa is at the shooting range shortly after a hostage rescue in which he used an SMG:
QUOTE
Kusanagi: "A waste of money, isn't it?  If you're going to bother with shooting practice I recommend that you get an artificial body."

Togusa: "Are you saying I should become a cyborg?"

Kusanagi: "I'm not stupid enough to mix orders for work-related and private matters.  I think your shooting back there was pretty good, but if you thought your armor piercing bullets were going to hit the hostages you should have dealt with it according to the situation.  You did have your 9mm pistol with you, right?  Why do you think I pulled you out of the central office?  Don't you think it's better to try and contribute by doing what you're good at instead of being depressed?  We're going to closely examine what was going on for the 10 minutes before our strike!"

The joke of course is that in the first few minutes of the GitS film Kusanagi berated Togusa for carrying his pistol while on duty and insisted that he ditch it for an SMG while here she is encouraging him to choose his own armament. rotate.gif
Wireknight
See? With women, even terrible cyborg supersoldier women, it's all about the mixed signals.
Kagetenshi
That's not true; she berated Togusa for having his nonstandard revolver instead of a standard-issue semiautomatic pistol.

~J
Vuron
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
That's not true; she berated Togusa for having his nonstandard revolver instead of a standard-issue semiautomatic pistol.

~J

Hey sometimes you just gotta carry some massive handcannon rather than police issue. Besides monster revolvers are a favorite of artists.

Note I haven't seen the anime in question but am commenting on the relative explosion of revolvers in anime/manga in general.
Arethusa
It's not a monster revolver. The Mateba he carries is chambered in 9x19mm.
Vuron
QUOTE (Arethusa)
It's not a monster revolver. The Mateba he carries is chambered in 9x19mm.

Damn if they were sticking to standard anime cliches it would be a Taurus Raging Bull variant carrying .454 Casull ammo.

People are just slacking these days if they let 9x19 revolvers slip into frames.
hermit
QUOTE
See? With women, even terrible cyborg supersoldier women, it's all about the mixed signals.

Motoko's not really terrible. She's just really, REALLY on the edge concerning cyberpsychosis. And all this sexy dressing in the TV series ... wodner if she'S trying to compensate for something ...
mfb
QUOTE (Mr. Man)
While maybe not perfectly explicit, they did come close 13 minutes into the first SAC episode. Togusa is at the shooting range shortly after a hostage rescue in which he used an SMG:

yeah, but his skill with a pistol isn't, it seems to me, the real reason Kusanagi wanted him--though it was a factor. the real reason, i think, is that Togusa is still human. very human, as a matter of fact. the rest of the team, while more precise and less prone to error, are also less prone to intuitive leaps when logic fails. Togusa excels in that form of thinking, partly because he has so few cybernetic modifications and partly because, well, he's the only one of the team that has a life outside of S9 (barring hot lesbian robo-orgies).
hermit
QUOTE
barring hot lesbian robo-orgies

._.

Did I miss anything?
Vuron
QUOTE (hermit)
QUOTE
barring hot lesbian robo-orgies

._.

Did I miss anything?

If you've read GitS and GitS: Man Machine Interface there are several passages that were removed that depict Matoka engaged in lesbian sex.
Wireknight
He's also the only civilian-outlook member. He's an excellent detective, top-notch, from a police force, rather than a military unit. Others in the organization are almost universally mercenaries, soldiers, and other such combat-oriented operatives. Since they deal with low-key domestic activities as often as international police actions and rapid-deployment combat situations, they need to draw from a pool of people who have exceptional skill in both important areas they operate within. Have you noticed that for the situations where they've relied on deep cover and face-to-face social legwork, Togusa has been their man?
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