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Lucyfersam
So, the longer I think about the new mechanic, the more upset I'm becoming with it, not really with the fixed TN, but with the elimination of dice pools as we know them. Pools are probably my favorite part of the SR system, and their loss is a major blow to the quality of the system. IMO they are pretty close to the perfect way to show focus on actions during a combat turn.

Given the stated elimination of dice pools, what will replace their function? Will all actions now be equal (please no, I like a little bit of variability based on the importance of the action)? Will they completely crib the WW system and institute pool splitting (please no, this is the worst system I've ever seen for this, I've hated it in every WW game I've ever played)? One person suggested a more frequently refreshing Karma Pool that can be cheaply used to buy dice. This is not a bad suggestion, could work as long as Karma Pool refreshes very regularly and can still be used to buy re-rolls and remain balanced (which seems... difficult). I'm not sure what I would recommend, it will require a little more thought, but there needs to be something. Please.
mfb
i agree completely. the ability to increase your chances of success on important actions is one of the strongest points SR1-3 has. i will be vexed mightily if this is not somehow ported into SR4.
sapphire_wyvern
QUOTE (Lucyfersam)
So, the longer I think about the new mechanic, the more upset I'm becoming with it, not really with the fixed TN, but with the elimination of dice pools as we know them. Pools are probably my favorite part of the SR system, and their loss is a major blow to the quality of the system. IMO they are pretty close to the perfect way to show focus on actions during a combat turn.

Given the stated elimination of dice pools, what will replace their function? Will all actions now be equal (please no, I like a little bit of variability based on the importance of the action)? Will they completely crib the WW system and institute pool splitting (please no, this is the worst system I've ever seen for this, I've hated it in every WW game I've ever played)? One person suggested a more frequently refreshing Karma Pool that can be cheaply used to buy dice. This is not a bad suggestion, could work as long as Karma Pool refreshes very regularly and can still be used to buy re-rolls and remain balanced (which seems... difficult). I'm not sure what I would recommend, it will require a little more thought, but there needs to be something. Please.

I agree that there does need to be some kind of player input at the time of a combat into what resources they wish to expend on which actions. Player decision-making is the key to a fun tactical combat experience, in my opinion. Ideally we want to maximise decision making while minimising mechanical (eg 4 opposed rolls per attack) time wasting.

I've been thinking about my Karma-pool-as-replacement-for-all-the-other-pools idea, but I'm not entirely satisfied with it. It links pool size, discretionary ability, and general kick-assitude rather more directly to total Karma earned than I'm entirely happy with.

Perhaps a better suggestion would be for all characters to have access to a single discretionary dice pool, which can be added to any roll, which refreshes at the start of each combat turn or non-combat scene, and which can be enlarged through the expenditure of Good Karma.

A simple system, that is applied fairly to all skills, usable by all types of character, and can even be bolted on to SR4 as a house-rule if for some reason FanPro fails to immediately include my genius into their development program! wink.gif
mfb
eh. as much a proponent of SR4 as i've been, if it sucks, i'm out. i'm not going to sit down and try to work out a whole new boatload of houserules to try and fix the system, if it's in as much need of fixing (according to my standards) as SR3 is.
Lucyfersam
If dice pools are all I need to fix, I might house rule them, but it would make me MUCH happier to not have to. The idea of a single pool has merit, something as simple as a Focus Pool, determining how much of your attention your putting on any given action. This pool would probably be equal for all characters, which might be a good thing, as once your adding your attribute to your skill for roll there is no reason I can think of for anyone to have a higher or lower rating, unless there was some whiz piece of cyber or a spell that radicly increased your perception so you had an effective time dilation (bullet time being a very extreme example). As I write and think about this idea, I'm starting to like it a fair bit...

This is a solid idea, but lets keep more coming. Maybe if we're lucky some playtester group will try out some of these ideas in there game and then push for them to be added, if there isn't already some system in place to fill this function.
lord_cack
I think that maybe something like "Action Points" in the D20 system (oh god, I just mentioned...that-which-must-not-be-named....).

But, given the new developments with the system structure, the concept of Action Points seems to fit in quite well.
Austere Emancipator
Action Points are basically the Karma Pool of D20.

I can't be bothered to figure out house rules for SR3-like Pools until I get to see exactly how opposed tests work in combat and elsewhere. Simply adding 5-15 extra dice for characters per combat turn or even per combat could end up dramatically unbalancing the whole thing.
Critias
I'm more likely to stick with SR3 than make an "I'm out" line in the dirt over this. I'm not a big fan of fixed-TN systems I've played with, I am a big (very big) fan of combat and other player's-choice die pools, and I'm actually very very comfortable in SR3. I'm going to give SR4 a chance, because I'm an addict and have been since the very early 90's -- but if I end up not liking it's system, I'm going to just stick with what I know and like (not ditch the game altogether).
mfb
if SR4 sucks, and a venue exists to continue playing SR3, i'll continue to play SR3. but i don't see that happening, if SR4 sucks.

but it won't suck. right?
SporkPimp
How about some kind of point that you can spend to increase your dice pools or add automatic successes? Some kind of point to represent, say, the "power" of your "will"? Maybe it would refresh during downtime, or when you do cool stuff?

If only there was an example somewhere. Some sort of "power" of "will" mechanic in some other hypothetical fixed-TN dice pool game.

...Nah. It's just too bleeding-edge.

-Albert
Hopes that they'll just amp the Karma pool to compensate.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (mfb)
if SR4 sucks, and a venue exists to continue playing SR3, i'll continue to play SR3.

There will be venues. Even if SR4 roxxors my soxxors Shadows of the Sixth World will probably be using SR3 for up to half a year after the release while we convert characters, playtest, and revamp the system for fifteen years prior to the start of 4th ed. If it sucks, well, we'll just keep on truckin'.

Why wouldn't there be a venue?

~J
Fortune
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
... Shadows of the Sixth World will probably be using SR3 for up to half a year after the release while we convert characters, playtest, and revamp the system for fifteen years prior to the start of 4th ed. If it sucks, well, we'll just keep on truckin'.

Does anything actually happen there though? I keep checking, and nobody seems to post.
Critias
To be honest, I'm already thinking about just trying to convince everyone I play with to keep Pools (in their current incarnation), as a tack-on house rule to the SR4 system. More than the fixed TN's, the removal of tactical thinking and player-based decision making pisses me off. I've been one of the more vocal "shut up and stop whining before we hear anything" guys on here, but what we did just hear almost makes me do a one-eighty on my opinion about SR4.

I really, really, like SR's pools, and options, and it's been a huge reason I've loved SR's system. The announcement that those pools no longer exist is a major step in a very wrong direction -- that announcement, in and of itself, was enough to keep me from looking forward to SR4 and make me apprehensive about it, instead.

That said, I still understand I just have to wait and see the final, finished, product. But the removal of just that one key element, and no mention of anything else replacing it (in a "you still get to do some thinking, player" sort of way), makes me afraid of what that final product is going to be like. Unless the rest of the final product is completely sock-rocking, though, I'm going to be disappointed. That one little line of FAQ was enough to answer a question very, very, incorrectly.

I don't think a house rule would be too horrific, if it granted SR3 style combat, hacking, spell, etc pools to SR4 players. As long as everyone gets the same handfull of bonus dice to toss around (based on stats, etc, like it is right now), I don't think it'd be too game breaking. I'm worried that I'm already thinking this way, though -- ask the guys I game with, I don't like house rules, and am among the most vocal and sincere advocates of keeping things canon that you'll likely ever find. The fact I'm already sitting here making up house rules has me a little nervous.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 5 2005, 02:52 AM)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 5 2005, 04:41 PM)
... Shadows of the Sixth World will probably be using SR3 for up to half a year after the release while we convert characters, playtest, and revamp the system for fifteen years prior to the start of 4th ed. If it sucks, well, we'll just keep on truckin'.

Does anything actually happen there though? I keep checking, and nobody seems to post.

We don't post much, even less in the public forums, but we've been playing two sessions a week pretty consistently for the past year or so (one for each of our active games, one run by me and the other by Taran, who pokes his head in here occasionally).

~J
mfb
yeah. i feel like a kid in December who's just been reminded that Santa also sometimes brings lumps of coal.
Critias
And whose parents, while in the middle of mentioning coal as a possibility, are beginning to read from a list of all the things he did wrong this year.
NightHaunter
The dice pools, which were based on attributes, have now been replaced directly with attributes.
It's only a minor tweak, if you put it in those terms and the dice are easyier to keep track of.
It's a more elegant system than shadowrun 3.
I'm not just being a fan boy.
Just because it's different doesn't make it bad. eek.gif

(This post has been edited for puntuation, cos I suck)
Critias
Right, I understand that attributes are still important. I don't mind that, just like I don't mind the fixed TN.

What I do mind is that it seems like all the thought and effort and tactical thinking has been taken from combat (and spellcasting, and Matrix running, etc, etc). I like being able to sit on a pile of combat pool and use it as an ace up my sleeve at the right time in a combat round. I like the flexibility spell pool grants my casters -- go all out on that fireball and hope it ends the combat, or nurse my spell pool and use it for drain instead of offense? I like the options, the choices, the ability to decide something that will directly influence how combat goes.

I don't like just saying "I shoot this guy," rolling a handfull of dice, and hoping for the best. There's more to combat than picking a target (or, at least, in SR there always has been, and I think there always should be).

I'm also curious about what this will mean for several spells, adept powers, and pieces of cyberware (combat sense, tactical computers, that sotr of thing). Those are among my favorite methods of augmentation, precisely because of their CP boost (and my love for CP and what it represents).
Fortune
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
We don't post much, even less in the public forums, but we've been playing two sessions a week pretty consistently for the past year or so (one for each of our active games, one run by me and the other by Taran, who pokes his head in here occasionally).

So, your games are not PbP then, and you only use the threads I don't have access to for communication?
NightHaunter
QUOTE (Critias)
Right, I understand that attributes are still important. I don't mind that, just like I don't mind the fixed TN.

What I do mind is that it seems like all the thought and effort and tactical thinking has been taken from combat (and spellcasting, and Matrix running, etc, etc). I like being able to sit on a pile of combat pool and use it as an ace up my sleeve at the right time in a combat round. I like the flexibility spell pool grants my casters -- go all out on that fireball and hope it ends the combat, or nurse my spell pool and use it for drain instead of offense? I like the options, the choices, the ability to decide something that will directly influence how combat goes.

I don't like just saying "I shoot this guy," rolling a handfull of dice, and hoping for the best. There's more to combat than picking a target (or, at least, in SR there always has been, and I think there always should be).

I'm also curious about what this will mean for several spells, adept powers, and pieces of cyberware (combat sense, tactical computers, that sotr of thing). Those are among my favorite methods of augmentation, precisely because of their CP boost (and my love for CP and what it represents).

My first response was what no dice pools!
But we still don't know what the modifyers will be used with the game as it look like both the TN and "dice pool" are subject to modification.
Plus theres nothing stopping artistic flair and house rules ever.

Chill.

I rekon it's gonna work out ok.
mmu1
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 5 2005, 06:00 PM)
We don't post much, even less in the public forums, but we've been playing two sessions a week pretty consistently for the past year or so (one for each of our active games, one run by me and the other by Taran, who pokes his head in here occasionally).

So, your games are not PbP then, and you only use the threads I don't have access to for communication?

They're actually IM games. And yes, everyone has gotten sort of apathetic when it comes to posting on the boards - when you talk to the same people twice a week, it just feels sort of redundant...

Perhaps we should make more of an effort for advertising purposes. wink.gif
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Critias)
What I do mind is that it seems like all the thought and effort and tactical thinking has been taken from combat (and spellcasting, and Matrix running, etc, etc). I like being able to sit on a pile of combat pool and use it as an ace up my sleeve at the right time in a combat round. I like the flexibility spell pool grants my casters -- go all out on that fireball and hope it ends the combat, or nurse my spell pool and use it for drain instead of offense? I like the options, the choices, the ability to decide something that will directly influence how combat goes.

Hear hear. Unless they offer up a suitable way of modeling how a character can be on the offensive or the defensive depending on what the situation dictates, the loss of pools will be one of the first things I un-streamline about SR4.
Spookymonster
There are some interesting implications to the disappearance of the pools. Resisting drain, for example. Without a pool, is it straight Willpower/Charisma +/- totem mods only? Will the Sorcery/Conjuring skills be applicable now? Or will new magical skills be added (Centering for the non-initiated, for example)?

What about casting 2 spells at the same time? Do they both use the same # of dice (Int + Sorc +/- totem mods), withholding dice from each test as a penalty?

If I no longer have to balance my pools between casting and drain, it looks like magicians just got a whole lot stronger.
Synner
QUOTE (Spookymonster)
If I no longer have to balance my pools between casting and drain, it looks like magicians just got a whole lot stronger.

Or if your Dice Pool is meant to cover both then they're weaker... Or if Magical skills are changed... Or if something's done to balance them out. It's too early to tell and there's not enough data.
Eyeless Blond
You know, it's possible that in the SR4 system attributes are being used *as* pools. What I'm getting at, for instance, is say you have to shoot at someone, and you have a Qui of 6 and Pistols 5. You roll all 5 Pistols dice, like normal, but you can also add in Quickness dice, which refresh like a pool. So you can add in 4 Quickness dice to the 5 Pistols dice for this shot, and have 2 Quickness dice left over for your second shot (in addition to the 5 Pistols dice since it's a skill), or for a Quickness test to dodge someone else's shot, or however that's going to work. Sound like a possibility?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Sound like a possibility?

Dunno, but I hope not. First of all, basing dodging on QUI alone is not a very good idea, since situational awareness etc. is (or should be) more important in Shadowrun. After all, you're not supposed to be able to literally dodge bullets. Second, it'd cause problems with weapons/skills which use other attributes, like grenade launchers etc., where you'd then get to use a lot more dice than someone using conventional small arms -- and basing your dodging on the linked attribute of whatever you're using to attack isn't a very good idea either.
mmu1
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
You know, it's possible that in the SR4 system attributes are being used *as* pools. What I'm getting at, for instance, is say you have to shoot at someone, and you have a Qui of 6 and Pistols 5. You roll all 5 Pistols dice, like normal, but you can also add in Quickness dice, which refresh like a pool. So you can add in 4 Quickness dice to the 5 Pistols dice for this shot, and have 2 Quickness dice left over for your second shot (in addition to the 5 Pistols dice since it's a skill), or for a Quickness test to dodge someone else's shot, or however that's going to work. Sound like a possibility?

I'm not sure how well that'd work - a pool equal to quickness for all that you'd normally use a combat pool for seems sort of small - especially since I don't think they're going to let attributes get nearly as high now as they do in SR3. (Imagine a troll with Strength 12 and Unarmed 6 rolling 18 dice for every combat test... Sort of impractical.) In fact, the whole new emphasis on streamlining makes it unlikely, IMO.
Demonseed Elite
Also keep in mind that a lot of you are working on the assumption that there is no tactical dice pool at all (by that I mean dice pools that you carefully choose to apply on particular actions, like Combat Pool, Hacking Pool, etc.).

Rob's quote says: "The Dice Pools from SR3–Combat, Hacking, Control, Magic–no longer exist in SR4."

There's one very important pool he doesn't mention there.
NightHaunter
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Also keep in mind that a lot of you are working on the assumption that there is no tactical dice pool at all (by that I mean dice pools that you carefully choose to apply on particular actions, like Combat Pool, Hacking Pool, etc.).

Rob's quote says: "The Dice Pools from SR3–Combat, Hacking, Control, Magic–no longer exist in SR4."

There's one very important pool he doesn't mention there.

Astral, astral combat, karma, task.
Have I missed any. biggrin.gif
Demonseed Elite
And out of those four, what would say is the most important. Which is the one that every runner has?
mmu1
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Sound like a possibility?

Dunno, but I hope not. First of all, basing dodging on QUI alone is not a very good idea, since situational awareness etc. is (or should be) more important in Shadowrun. After all, you're not supposed to be able to literally dodge bullets. Second, it'd cause problems with weapons/skills which use other attributes, like grenade launchers etc., where you'd then get to use a lot more dice than someone using conventional small arms.

Which brings up the question of whether skills will still be linked to the same attributes as in SR3.

The kind of formula they're talking about using almost seems to strongly suggest they'll be changing attribute maximums, racial mods and bonuses from cyber - both to keep the number of dice down to a manageable level, and to make sure how many dice you have in a skill is relevant.

At the same time, if they do that, it's going to suddenly get more difficult to meaningfully show the difference between the different metahuman types...

One solution I can think of is letting trolls (for example) keep their massive strength, but not using strength as part of the "to hit" roll, only for damage.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Which is the one that every runner has?

If Karma Pool replaces Combat Pool for most uses, I'm going to have a fit.

QUOTE (mmu1)
One solution I can think of is letting trolls (for example) keep their massive strength, but not using strength as part of the "to hit" roll, only for damage.

Assuming they keep the opposed melee combat tests, that'd be a horrible idea. There are reason why the contestants in UFC and other (nearly) anything goes martial arts competitions are, ehh, bulky; linking melee attack rolls to QUI would favor the small quick guys immensely.
Demonseed Elite
I thought you were already having a fit? wink.gif

Anyway, I don't know. But what I'm saying is, what Rob said doesn't necessarily mean there will be no tactical use of pool dice. What I do doubt is that there will be a dozen different types of tactical pools like there are in SR3, all calculated with seperate mechanics.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
I thought you were already having a fit? wink.gif

I like to think I'm taking this pretty calmly. I'm definitely part of the "wait and see" crowd, but I also gladly voice my criticism when I think it might be in some way constructive (even though it probably isn't).

I also have no problem with more general-purpose dice pools, it's just that using Karma Pool for that would be a pretty bad idea, unless everyone(!) starts with it at 4+ and it's a lot more difficult to gain more of than in SR3; and I'm positive that's not going to happen.
Ol' Scratch
I find it best to just forget about the mechanics as they stand now, and look at each concept as its own concept. The existance of a single pool does not mean that single pool will function like anything we have right now, even if its purpose in the new mechanic is the same as it is now (such as a Karma Pool).

I'm all but certain they're rebuilding from the ground floor up, so there's no sense in assuming a single exact mechanic is going to work the way you think it is until you actually see it and its parent mechanic.
Demonseed Elite
I really don't know that it would work anything like SR3 Karma Pool. But the idea of a streamlined tactical pool of some sort meshes a lot more with the design philosophy of SR4. The tactical pool idea is great, and a facet of Shadowrun. But the way SR3 has handled those pools has been terrible.
NightHaunter
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
And out of those four, what would say is the most important. Which is the one that every runner has?

Ooooh ooooh pick me I know pick me.







Its task, astral combat and karma.
Task generates off int.
Everyone gets an astral combat pool if they're dragged to the astral and I think you start with karma not sure though question.gif

proof.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I'm all but certain they're rebuilding from the ground floor up, so there's no sense in assuming a single exact mechanic is going to work the way you think it is until you actually see it and its parent mechanic.

In the specific case of the Karma Pool, though, unless they are trying to confuse old timers on purpose, if it's still around it'll likely be based on the same thing: accumulated Karma. In all the RPGs I'm aware of which have a similar system (action points/dice on D20, for example), this starts out as a tiny bonus for starting characters, and can end up ridiculously powerful for experienced characters -- this is definitely the case for SR3 canon KP. Similarly in all those RPGs NPCs get no such thing (for understandable reasons). Thus KP is a bad contender for a "replacement" of CP.
hermit
At least in my campaign, NPCs get Karma Pool on top of their threat rating ... makes them much more dangerous and gives the GM a handy instrument to easily modify enemies to fit the runners' threat level.

and I sure hope Greats retain their "messing with fate" ability, just to make them extra scary.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (hermit)
At least in my campaign, NPCs get Karma Pool on top of their threat rating [...]

Likewise in mine, but I still seriously doubt such a thing will be canon.
hermit
Too bad. It makes every fight a true challenge. It severely cuts down on munchkinism, all the more as our GM mercilessly plays these pools out. Well, that's actually not SUCH a good thing, as it lost two characters limbs and, out of six, only two did not have D+ damage, but hey, those were a Red Samurai turned Deus drones hit team ... and the remaining chars (and my backup char) got the fuckhead Johnson and contacted a "psychological consultant" to extract all the things he knew, until his head blew up. Ah well. It was fun nonetheless, though my poor elf now will have to live one armed for two weeks and five days.
mfb
huh. Eyeless's idea is interesting, but fairly complex. i mean, before, most characters had, at most, two pools that could come to bear on a given situation. this would make, what, up to 8, depending on how they worked it?
Lucyfersam
The option of karma pool to replace the rest of the pools had already come up, and I consider it to be a possible though difficult option (as mentioned in the first post). I really don't think SR3 did a bad job with the pools, most new players only have a combat pool and sometimes a magic pool as they don't usually go in for rigging or decking. These are really very easy to learn.
Pthgar
I would love to see a general pool (Karma or whatever) that all players have access to to keep the tactical aspect of SR. I guess basing it on experience (Karma) would be the fair way to go. If it was based on some stats, everyone would have similiar stats. They could however call it the Task Pool since you use it for all Tasks.
Aristotle
*nod* I agree, I liked the tactical aspect of pools but as a GM I also disliked tracking the pools of my NPCs as well as the Players to make sure everything was on the up and up. I think a single karma pool, used the way the old pools were, would do the trick personally. It would be easy enough to track and would still allow the characters some resources to use to their best advantage in combat. I really hope that is the way things go.

The tactical aspect pools brought to combat and the drain system for magic were definately selling points for the game system. Both made you think about how you used your resources in combat. Everyone having the same damage track and degrees of success are also important points for me.

I don't mind different rules, so long as the new rules portray the same world with the same feel. I want rules that are easier to interpret and play with, but I don't want to sacrifice all of the tactical grit that made SR so fun in the past.
Pthgar
QUOTE (Aristotle)
...Everything you said...

Absolutly 100% agreement.
Austere Emancipator
Just curious: do you feel that, were Karma Pool for example for the same things that Combat Pool is used in SR3, KP should still be accumulated in a way similar to SR3, ie. characters start out at 1 and end up with Lots? Or would you want a different kind of development curve for it?
mfb
i don't think it should be a simple karma progression. the best way, probably, would be to simply average all your stats (it helps with everything, therefore its source should be as wide as possible). that would reward high-stat characters without unduly punishing low-stat characters, plus it's easy to track.
Pthgar
I think I would want an initialy higher number, say 5KP, and from there on out the old SR3 way of adding KP dice. Oh, I also would want there to be no difference in the KP earning rate between humans and metahumans. Find another way to make humans cool.

But I'll be happy with any thing that is fair and balanced.
blakkie
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Just curious: do you feel that, were Karma Pool for example for the same things that Combat Pool is used in SR3, KP should still be accumulated in a way similar to SR3, ie. characters start out at 1 and end up with Lots? Or would you want a different kind of development curve for it?

Definately not start out at one. Capping or diminishing returns at higher counts likewise. Otherwise you'd likely get too many or too few during large portions of a character's career, depending on the actual mechanic for getting dice out of the pool of course.
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