hm. actually, now that i think about it, i don't think i want an elven lesbian's 12 Cha adding to their ability to make a shot with a pistol. scratch that idea.

you mean... wait, huh? i'm talking about scrapping my idea for averaging all the attributes to create a single pool.

Assuming you still allowed Good Karma gained to add to your Karma Pool, and that Karma Pool would then be used for All Your (SR3-type) Dice Pool Needs™, then even Karma she's gained through her use of social skills (e.g. a run where she's done nothing but talking to/seducing/sleeping with people), and that she's spent on improving those social skills or Charisma, would allow her to perform better in combat.

In either case a rule, like the one from SR3, limiting the number of Karma Pool used to the skill level of the skill being used (or some similar limitation) would ensure that folks with tons of charisma earned karma wouldn't be using it to shoot people down unrealistically.

Let the Karma Pool, or Task Pool, accumulation be independent of how it is earned or what attributes the character relies on, and allow the character's skill determine how well the character can use that skill tactically.

This ties into the argument about high attributes and low skills too. Sure a character with an Agility of 6 and a Guns skill of 1 has 7 dice just like a character with an Agility of 3 and a Guns skill of 4 ... But the guy with the Gun skill of 4 can use 4 pool dice while the other guy can only use 1. Of course my example is pretty simplistic, but something *hand wave* similar to that would be cool with me.

How about the idea of just not bothering with "dice pools" by terminology, and instead using a linked attribute as one. Thus your Charisma score can be used as a dice pool for any Social Skill Test you make, Strength for Melee Combat Skills, Quickness for Ranged Combat Skills, and so on and so forth. Same goes for using them in resistance tests the same way (assuming you use something other than raw Attributes for resistance tests, which is something I would definitely had added to the game if I were rebuilding it from scratch).

So while that Elf with Charisma 9 might be a dynamo at Social Skills, the Dwarf with Willpower 7 is still going to be a bitch to sway with any of them (since he'd get to use his Willpower as a pool to resist the Elf's Charisma-pooled influence).

Then, on top of that, having an "actual" dice pool -- in the form of a Karma Pool -- that could be used for all the miscellanous actions we're used to.

It's still tactical, it now directly uses Attributes in all actions you perform (as opposed to now), and it's pretty straight-forward and self-balancing to a degree.

What pool (apart from KP) would stand in for Combat Pool in the Dodge Test-equivalent in that case? If it were an attribute pool (for example QUI or INT Pool), then you'd run into the trouble of someone using a weapon not linked to the Dodge Test-equivalent Pool Attribute having a lot more dice to throw around per Combat Turn.

For example, if the Dodge Test-equivalent used the QUI Pool, then characters using launch weapons could use up their INT Pool for offense while still maintaining their QUI Pool for defense. Similarly someone using thrown weapons could use their STR Pool for offense. Meanwhile someone using conventional small arms would have to split his QUI Pool for both offense and defense.

The other thing to keep in mind here is the size of the rolls. If your average runner has an attribute of 4 and a skill of 6 in his prefered weapon, that would be 10 dice. If cyberware, conditions, gear, and whatever else have the ability to add dice we could be looking at 12 or 13 dice under conditions of optimal use. While I want the tactical feel of dice pools, I'd also like to keep the number of dice I'm rolling somewhat sane.

Of course this assumes a lot. We have no idea what will add or subtract dice at this point. It's very possible, maybe even likely, that the number of conditional modifiers for lighting, terrain, movement, and so forth will be slimmed down a bit.

I dunno. I think I'm back to 'wait and see' again.

Also don't forget that a "good" amount of dice to roll for SR3 is about 6, the skill level. That is way above average for skills. Now, in SR4 the roll for an average person would be 6. The number of dice average people roll just went way up. I have know idea how that effects the game, but I'm sure they're working on it.

I've always felt dodging should be a skill. Reaction + Dodge?

here's one way you could adapt the dice pool concept: a set of floating combat points which modify success thresholds. whenever you're attacked and want to dodge, you can allocate combat points to increase the number of successes necessary to get a hit on you. if you want to put more oomph into an attack, you allocate combat points to reduce the threshold necessary to score a hit.