Because being the guys who the cops and the press fixate on as "evildoers of the week" results in many guys with really good skills in many different approaches to investigation focusing on investigating YOU. The are odds are pretty good that someone will get lucky with 70 people with 12 dice investigating, while it's a lot lower with 3 guys with 8 dice. Then one night you get your sleep deepened by neurostun right before an Ares Firewatch team blows in your doors.

"The Nail that Sticks Up will be hammered down." Don't be that guy.

But you aren't that guy. You kill some people on a run, you still stick up less than the gangs that take over the major highways every night.

~J

I stated reputation as a possible motive. This would mean that for role-playing purposes, your character wants a reputation as someone that only kills when necessary. I cannot see any way that reducing enemy casualties will be bad for your reputation (assuming that you succeed at the mission). This could actually be a point in your favor when the Johnson is looking for a team.

"Hummm team 1 has a good rep, never failed a mission, team 2 never failed a mission either, but they are known for killing a lot of people, including women and children. Ok, anytime I need lots of bodies I call team 2."

In the above case, if the Johnson did not want the runners to know that he worked for the same corp (he is concealing his own failure for instance). He might not want his own people to be massacred. If he specifies this in the contract, people will guess what he is doing, and likely why. Additionally, team 2 is going to charge a whole bunch for a non-lethal mission.


Again, it all comes down to role-play. There are a large number of legitimate reasons for runners to not indiscriminately kill bystanders. The only reason that makes sense to me to do so is simplicity. Only carry one kind of ammo, no need to go to any effort to minimize collateral damage if you intend to kill everyone you meet anyhow.

To quote a rather famous character:



In short, if someone shoots a gangbanger in the Redmonds will anyone give a damn? But if you shoot the upper middle class white elf Mr Rogers down the road, it is suddenly the news of the month.

We're not talking about the Barrens, though. We're talking about the major highways, including I-5 which runs straight through Downtown Seattle.

Like I've said elsewhere, we're not talking about nice, cozy 2009, we're talking about a world in which the Insurance Wars could exist. The plan now includes random death for just about everyone below the corporate elite stratum.

Orcus Blackweather: that reasoning applies only to the small category of runs made by individuals against their own organizations where the Johnson is being half-assed about their betrayal.

~J

It also depends on whose turf you are working. If the said gangbanger is affiliated to the mob, you might get in trouble with them. In a good security neighbourhood, be sure tu have the police, whoever runs it, take the case seriously: it's their job. But guards on corporate ground? Go ahead: the corp has ten more ready to replace him and they don't give a shit about justice.

Kagetenshi- Never said that it was an every day occurrence. But that is one week where team 1 makes an extra few and team 2 doesn't.

I personally don't see any real loss by being discriminate. If someone is actively shooting at you, lethal force is generally expected. Some 12 year old and his mom are not a threat, and therefore don't require a lethal response. While there are runners that would kill them without blinking, most would prefer not to. If you go into the run with the idea of avoiding conflict, and are forced to respond lethally in a few cases, I believe that this is the norm for shadowrunners.

Again, though, just about everything in canon points to the "police" not taking cases seriously, or if they do not having the resources to act on it. This is how you get, for example, the Halloweeners, an aggressive anti-corporate gang, operating in the middle of Downtown, or the aforementioned go-gangs on highways every night, or any of a number of other things that wouldn't exist if Shadowrun contained the vaguely-functioning society you people seem to think it does.

Edit: Orcus Blackweather, you're right on that, but presumably there will be at least a few jobs where the point is to hurt the target and Team 1 is passed over because they'd probably need to be paid more to properly kill everything that moves that'd balance that out, if not tip the scales the other way. There is also the practical argument against Stun Damage, though for you SR4-players out there it may not apply due to the degree to which it's easier to get a longer Physical Track than Stun Track.

~J

If you play in a game that the cops are so stupid as to actually allow that idiocy more power to you. But this is a game in which the standard lone star aerial surveillance drone has a machine gun built in, so...

And, by canon, "that idiocy" still happens every night.

There's a connection here that you don't seem to be making.

~J

This might not be the best example. A gang attacking coprporate assets? Not police business. Corps wanted extraterritoriality, they have it. Now they deal with it.

The precinct building is a corporate asset. One with extraterritoriality, no less.

~J

It only depends on one thing: who does it belong to? Extraterritoriality is granted to corps as a whole, not to individual areas. If the corp wants Lone Star to protect their small assets, they hire them to do so on a different contract of the one with the city.

Not at all. Per canon it has meet a series of standards to be allowed as such.

I've always had issues with ideas in SR canon that are blatantly stupid.

Lonestar is an AA (extraterritorial rated) corporation in their own right.

and all that it requires to assert extraterritoriality is a clearly marked boundary/barrier (hedges or a line of potted plants around a movie theater being two examples given in various source books.)

I believe the point kage is making isn't that the police don't have the ability to stop it. it's that they just don't care to

[edit] spelling; removed a hyphen

Do you have a reference for that? I have just checked the SR4A book, P45. It says that corps can get extraterritoriality, not extraterritorial assets.

My point was that Lone Star is a AA, which is the standard for extraterritoriality. As kzt mentions there's a set of criteria required for extraterritoriality of a given specific property, but you can bet that the precinct building is going to meet that.

There's also the A and sub-A corporations which, while not primary targets, we have no reason to believe are spared the ire of the Halloweeners. Then you add in the places that could do their own security but contract out to Lone Star for whatever reason and you get all kinds of reasons for them to, if doing a good job is a priority, crack down on the Halloweeners. That they don't means either they can't or that they don't care enough to.

Edit: reference: Corporate Download. If it changed, then this is one more place where I'm talking about Shadowrun, not SR4.

~J

Yup, I agree that both approaches to shadowrun are valid. I also agree that the world is extremely violent, with terrorists and thugs everywhere. The life of the poor is as always "Nasty, brutish, and short." I believe that Well armed thugs will always be in demand, and there will always be wet work available. I believe that a team that gets the same jobs done without the same level of violence will also be in demand. I believe that the second will be greater, but we are playing in different campaigns, so we can both be right. My game is currently in Hong Kong, so the rules are not the same. Hong Kong has a corporate council making it very difficult for gangs like the Halloweeners to operate in the more polite areas. In China, face and reputation are very important, giving it a very different feel from both Denver and Seattle campaigns that I played before.

Mm. Yeah, my arguments apply to all of the canon settings I use regularly, but those do come down roughly to "Seattle, Denver, Chicago, Vegas"; mileage may vary in less dystopic parts of the setting.

~J

But Lone Star lost the Seattle job; they were indifferent once too many, and now Knight Errant gets the job.


Totally-nonviolent teams are pretty incredible; they'll have to prove they can get things done again and again. OTOH, psycho killers on the loose make everyone else nervous - can you trust them?
Moderation is the key, and avoiding PR errors like killing highly mediagenic middle-class civilians (you can get away with ugly poor people though.)

In an edition that this thread isn't about, and that I would have difficulty caring less about.

That said, unless Knight Errant has also changed dramatically in SR4, they're slightly better-equipped but no more motivated.

~J

this is an sr3 thread; Kage already gave the appropriate source, although Corporate Download happens to still be a useful resource in SR4 (at least until Corporate Guide comes out and reprints/updates most of the material.)

[edit]I'm starting to get the sense that players (myself numbered among them) who play both sr3 and sr4 are a distinct minority? anyway, I fully expect Corporate Guide to duplicate the sections explaining Extraterritorial Status of AA+ corps; I can't think of where else they'd expand on it.

I'd imagine that they are, at least on Dumpshock; you can speak to your reasons for playing both better than I can, but the other big group I see falling into that category are those who don't particularly care about the rules or details of the settings, and that's a group that's unlikely to spend time debating just that on internet boards.

~J

well the games are run by different GMs (I'm running SR3, we're somewhere in 2061 atm meta-plot wise.) the other game is the SR4 game. I have run SR4 before but I prefer the less-transhuman more dystopian vibe of SR3 and missed elective dice pools, so I reverted myself.

the other GM prefers the transhuman aspects of SR4's setting and the wireless integration; and previously GM'd games in the whitewolf lines, so I think the SR4 mechanics appealed to him.

both games are definitely Shadowrun, although the themes we're choosing to emphasize are rather different, which has lead in some ways to highlighting the conceptual differences in the settings.

ultimately I think it boils down to having enough players and GMs for two serious Shadowrun games and having the GMs happen to have different edition preferences more than anything else. He and I aren't about to decline an opportunity to actually *play* SR regardless of edition, and most of the other players playing both either have loyalty to both of us from earlier games or were interested in seeing how the earlier/later edition plays compared to their preferred system.

I consider myself quite lucky, I just didn't really think our situation was particularly unique (since it happens frequently with that Other game in this area as well.)

My apologies, I forgot the edition tag. However, this could happen in SR3 too; if a corp underperforms, they can be replaced (if an only if it's an election year.)

All this really boils down to what flavour of SR you prefer.

In SR1 (and even 2), the game really was set up to be the runners as the good guy taking on the evil corps/govt's which had misled the public into believing the corps/govt's were only looking out for the opublic's best interests, when in fact it was the exact opposite. That started to blur with the fiction, which seemed to show the runners as criminals who, at best, caught a dose of morality only after being in the biz a very long time and having some sort of personal epiphany about right and wrong (even if only a small one) and trying to do some good for once (usually with all sorts of nasty personal consequences).

If you are playing the Shadowrun according to the themes of the early days of the game, then Good Guys vs Evil Corps is dead on correct.

If you are playing Shadowrun in late 2nd/early 3rd onwards, then your runners are the professional criminals, the gentlemen assassins, independent organized crime contractors, etc.

Regardless of which style you play, as long as everyone is having fun, all is well

Criminal and bad guy aren't always the same thing.

Pink mohawks fighting the man, professional criminals doing the man's dirty work, professional criminals using thier position to fight the man, pink or professional just trying to make ends meet in a dark and dungy world...

Firefly. Boondock Saints. Matrix. Smokin Aces. Transporter. Dozens and dozens of different comics. Threads have been done to death with the themes, but they all can work for Shadowrun. Just depends on how you want to paint the world, and how the players want to interpret your art.

Our first campaign had a team that didn't do wetwork as a matter of principle, but was very much fond of overkill and shot down just about everyone who was in the way, or looked like he might be thinking about getting in their way at some time in the future. Johnsons started to hire them for any mission that got them close to the real target - data steal, sabotage, whatever - and just watched the desired assassination be covered up as collateral damage with no one the wiser.

Mmmm, Eversor Assassin meets Jaynian philosophy.*


*"I'll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight… If he bothers me, or if there's a woman… Or if I'm gettin' paid. Mostly only when I'm gettin' paid."

I do not follow the "leave no witnesses" reason though, unless the runners physically destroy the cybereyes/contacts of the dead people as well anything a guard sees will have been recorded. And destroying all that footage takes a lot.

Only if recorded.

- J.

Only if recorded.

- J.

Given that memory is basically free, why wouldn't it be recorded? Especially by a security guard on duty? I cannot think of any reason.

Am I wrong in thinking balaclava's are still commercially available in 207x?

In the end this is a discussion of play style preference. As always I say do what you find fun, no matter how realistic it is or isn't. After all the point of the game is fun.

We handwave the masking stuff away as "It is assumed you take the usual precautions to avoid getting identified".

Memory isn't basically free, though. Headware Memory for taking video footage is ¥150/minute, which gets expensive fast. Offline storage is cheaper at 20¥/MP, but then you have the issue of having to continuously transfer it out to the storage. There's also the fact that you don't just need the guard to have cybereyes, they need an eye camera as well.

Last but not least, eye camera footage only tells you what the guard saw, not what the guard heard, thought, figured out, or other possibly compromising details that they could spill the beans on.

~J

Ditto-otherwise you'll bog the game down in what the players are doing to disguise themselves.

What is that Headware Memory thing you are speaking of, Kagetenshi? Sounds ancient.

Just a HERF Gun or EMP Grenade, followed by applying Läel.

It's state-of-the-art!

~J

Isn't it basically just one die roll per player in both systems?

For some of us, that is the game!

FFBA is basically a bullet-proof diving suit. With goggles or shades, the amount of exposure any competent non-face runner should expect to show is less than a centimeter of skin. And the face, of course should be in disguise. If you think witnesses are a problem, maybe you're the problem. Maybe you shouldn't have taken that Distinctive Style flaw which requires you to constantly be in costume even while you're commuting murder. Other than that, what's your excuse?

But, I wouldn't worry too much about getting good and lethal. If Johnson thinks that you're shy on excessive force, he might just think that means he doesn't have to pay you. Unless, of course, it's the reason he uses your services to begin with. Fact is, Mr. J is paying, so you handle things how he wants them handled. If he says he doesn't care about corpses, that means he expects corpses. And it's always a good move to provide Mr. J with what he expects, at least on the surface of things.

The fact that it's easier to shoot someone in the face than it is to be sure no one shouted any identifiable information, your team doesn't have a distinctive set of physical builds, your team doesn't use any distinctive equipment, so on and soforth. This is before we get to information like "which direction did they go?" or, god forbid, the possibility that one of the bystanders is capable of Assensing; it's about as easy to just kill them and move on than to waste time trying to screen for the last one.

~J

If a bystander is capable of assensing he's probably capable of conjuring.

But my basic principle is that everything comes around. If the team goes through and shoots everything that moves they shouldn't be too upset when the way Lone Star asks them to surrender is a missile through their back window.

Yeah, the concept of escalation def applies. It's sort of like the trench warfare in WWI. Neither side would really try and kill the other unless directly ordered or unless it was in retaliation. Instead, they would fire artillery at the same spot every day just to show that, if they wanted to, they could kill you. I like to imagine that a corp, if it sees biomonitors start showing up "unconscious guard" they'll issue pursue and capture orders, but if they start getting "corpsified guard" warnings, they'll immediately authorize full on deadly force.

But deadly force is usually way more fun.

That's Lone Star's preferred technique anyway. Regardless, I've covered above how being processed through the legal system is equivalent to death for many character types.

Sithney: you're talking about emotional decisions made at the lowest levels in the absence of clear ways for superiors to quash that sort of behaviour. I don't see any reason why corporate policy would be any better for a runner using nonlethal force.

~J

So how is that in your world trigger happy Lone Star can't manage to use their dozens of MMG armed drones to shoot a dozen gangers committing violent crimes against voters on a downtown expressway?

And no, as they can't interrogate chunky salsa. While they can certainly get a lot of useful evidence that isn't nearly as effective as a runner naming names. And almost as important, Lone Star doesn't get paid for keeping in custody guys turned into cooked strawberry jelly.

1) I'm reasonably certain that he was mostly joking ( about the missiles anyway) - although if you do have to go take care of a problem you may as well do it the fun way, eh?

2) Lonestar doesn't care about a couple dozen gangers who will be gone by morning. anyone out at the hours they operate isn't worth the assets to protect; and on the rare occasion that they are it's better use of resources to provide an escort detail than it is to clear out the gangers every night.

more to the point, in sr3 both the Ancients and the Spikes are described as having numerous anti-vehicular weapons and other mil-spec toys - more than enough of them to make any patrol detail think twice about trying to make a bust. (they've toned it down a bit in sr4 apparently)

3) "He resisted arrest, I swear!" - runners are so cybered and twitched up (did anyone besides the face ever install an off switch on their wired reflexes?) or even worse, magicked up that they're calling the HTR team as soon as they get eyes on your chrome, and probably 80% of 'runners are never going quietly anyway (prison might as well be a death sentence for a runner) and Lonestar knows this too.

Even if you did go quiet, the vast majority of you don't have SINs so if they "disappear" your organs out the back door before booking, there's no recourse anyway - you don't have rights; and that means your estate doesn't have either.

I don't care how tough a biker you are, a few strato-9's a km away are going to result in you becoming dog meat in under 6 seconds after they decide you are hostile. And a couple of Strato-9s (each with the included MMG and 500 rounds of ammo) are one of the main ways Lone Star patrols.