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Demonseed Elite
Still doesn't mean you are representative of the whole. Which is not saying you don't matter.

For instance, the people that post here already play Shadowrun. There are a lot of people who don't. And they matter too.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Fortune)
I was under the impression that people on Dumpshock are from all over.

No, they aren't. They're all from Dumpshock.

The mere fact that we care enough to argue about it online makes us a non-representative minority and, ironically enough, thus not the market for anyone looking for major growth.

~J
Fortune
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
No, they aren't. They're all from Dumpshock.

Just like the people in the polls you and Shadow refer to are all from America?
Kagetenshi
No, just like the people in the poll I refer to are all out in force protesting something (or, potentially, protesting the protest). Replace it with a demonstration in any country's capital, it changes my point not a whit. My point has to do with ideological sampling, not geographic sampling.

~J
Demonseed Elite
Fact of the matter is, Shadowrun would not survive if it were only selling to those of us here on Dumpshock. The community isn't big enough. They've got to sell to a wider market. That includes casual players, the people who don't just play Shadowrun and certainly don't obsess singularly over Shadowrun enough to spend considerable amounts of time here on DSF. It also includes people are currently not players of Shadowrun at all, for whatever reasons.

I know we like to think we're special, but catering just to us would be a sure-fire last nail in the coffin of this game.
Kagetenshi
Just to us, certainly. However, it's clear that the intention is not to attempt a slow growth, to revamp things for greater accessibility; no, the intention is to overturn the bucket and hope for an inundation.

~J
Fortune
I understand that, but Dumpshock can be considered representative of the currently active Shadowrun community. Neither I nor Shadow said it was representative of the potential future market for Shadowrun.
Kagetenshi
Considering the other Shadowrun community I'm peripherally involved in and the Shadowrun players I know who don't follow Dumpshock, I disagree (or at the very least would need to see some pretty significant evidence).

~J
Demonseed Elite
And not even Dumpshock can agree with itself.

But yes, Shadowrun does have to appeal to a wider audience. And yes, sometimes making the decisions that probably need to be made to do so might piss off some people who already play.

Business isn't easy. It's also never a sure thing.
Bull
Sorry Fortune, buit Dumpshock on the whole actually isn't representative. You're rabid fanatics and extremely active players who care enough to show up here and post on a regular, if not daily (or hourly) basis.

Polling just you guys is like taking a poll about whether or not smoking is a good thing, and only polling people who smoke. Or taking an election poll only asking Democrats who should win.

Dumpshock should be included in the polling, but also get polling data from ENWorld. And RPGnet. And as many other general gaming boards as you can. In fact, the general gaming boards will actually count heavier in the poll, because they're the general gaming audience. Some play SR, some don't. They're still not entirely representative of the gaming market as a whole, because they're more rabidly fanatical about gaming on the whole, but it's still a better sampling.

Gaming is hard to get a good sampling from... Go to RPGnet, and you get a broader sample, but as I said, they're still more fanatical than the average fan. Go to Gen Con and take a poll, it's better still, because not everyone at Gen Con are hard core fans enough to post online regularly, but tehy're still fanatical enough to make a trip to Gen Con.

Hrmmm... Game shops. Hit game shops across the world, randomly sampling and polling customers. That would be your best bet.

You guys can probably call yourself the most devoted SR Fans. That's not a bad thing. But you gotta rememebr that the few hundred active posters here are a minority when it comes to SR players. There are probably 40 people locally that play or played Shadworun in the last 5 years. Of them, only 4 (including me)part of an online SR community, and I'm the only active participant.

Bull
Shadow
QUOTE (Bull)
Sorry Fortune, buit Dumpshock on the whole actually isn't representative. You're rabid fanatics and extremely active players who care enough to show up here and post on a regular, if not daily (or hourly) basis.

My point was that we do represent current Shadowrun fans. To automatically dismiss us because we happen to like the game enough to post daily about it would be like George Lucas remaking Starwars so it completely invalidated everything that came before it.

Oh wait he did that.

And while he made truckloads of money, he lost legions of true fans who had made him the truckloads of money up to that point. Which is an apt analogy for Fanpro. You can tell me DSF doesn't count, you can tell it to me a hundred times. You will still be wrong.

I do understand why Fanpro is doing what it is, I simply disagree with it. I think you could have done a much better job of it. But we will never know now.
Kagetenshi
No, but if they tell you the DSF crew doesn't mean as much money as the legions of potential casual players, they're right.

~J
Shadow
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
No, but if they tell you the DSF crew doesn't mean as much money as the legions of potential casual players, they're right.

~J

Which is my point. Don't say "you don't represent an adequate fan base for us to poll from" 'cause it is not true.

Say, "you arn't the people were making the game for". Which is true.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
No, but if they tell you the DSF crew doesn't mean as much money as the legions of potential casual players, they're right.

As long as said legions of potential players actually fork over the cash to buy the system. Who says that those legions are even interested in playing Shadowrun? Especially with all the Modern Magic settings flying around these days?
Syd
Dumpshock is about as representative as most niche online communities. I read Slashdot--aren't all nerds blathering single-minded linux zealots?

I'll go on record as looking forward to not looking up every frigging thing whenever my rigger wants to do anything at all. Or being capable of introducing my D&D group to SR without a sense of dread. SR4 makes me scared, but I'm ready to Drink the Kool-Aid smile.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Syd)
I'm ready to Drink the Kool-Aid smile.gif

Don't you mean Flavor Aid?
Eldritch
QUOTE
Polling just you guys is like taking a poll about whether or not smoking is a good thing, and only polling people who smoke. Or taking an election poll only asking Democrats who should win.


Yeah, but polling non SR players about whether or not decker and riggers should be combined into hackers - or that the Karma pool will go away in favor of Edge is like polling 4 year olds about the best car to buy - They just aren't informed enough to make the decision. Or care about the outcome.

Sorry, we are probably the best people to poll about such things - but Fanpro doesn't want to do that - they know we won't like the changes they are offering.

I'll continue on in the same vein I started when the announcement was made - the same vein many others are picking up on - Fanpro really does not care about the current fan base. They are way more interested in the potential fan base.

(They could have had both)

It's a big gamble, and I hope it works out for them.

I just thank the gods for the Internet - that should allow for the 3rd edition rule set to continue on for years.....

mfb
QUOTE (Shadow)
Say, "you arn't the people were making the game for". Which is true.

hardly. not even by a long shot--the guys making the game, right now, are dumpshockers in large part. you can be damn sure they're making the game for themselves, among others. a true statement would be "dumpshockers aren't the only people we're making the game for."
Shadow
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Shadow)
Say, "you arn't the people were making the game for". Which is true.

hardly. not even by a long shot--the guys making the game, right now, are dumpshockers in large part. you can be damn sure they're making the game for themselves, among others. a true statement would be "dumpshockers aren't the only people we're making the game for."

Except they are, and they said as much. This game they are making si for the fans out there that arn't playing yet. Not the current ones. It's great if the current ones like it, but we are not there audience.
Ellery
I'm not so sure about that, mfb. Firstly, any online community, Dumpshock included, has a diverse set of opinions, so any small set of people from that community are unlikely to represent it well. Secondly, once you're developing a product, you typically enter a rather different mindset than that of a consumer of the product. Thirdly, isn't Boyle the one who really in control of the direction SR4 is going in, and isn't he not a Dumpshocker?
mfb
Rob has general control. the specific ideas are generally come up with by the writers. and online communities are only diverse within a certain range--as we've seen on SL, those who don't like that range leave.

QUOTE (Shadow)
Except they are, and they said as much.

where, specifically? the statements that stick most in my mind are goodman's assertations that he likes the game just as much as we do.
Critias
Right, 'cause he'd come out and say "It's gonna be crap, no one buy it," even if he could. wink.gif

They've been fairly up front on this one, MFB, making it very clear that the purpose of the revision is to re-energize the fan base by drawing in new members. Almost from the get-go, they've been saying that.
mfb
yes, but that doesn't automatically mean they're trying to screw old players. and since a significant portion of the playtester group is taken from dumpshock, it certainly doesn't mean that they're rejecting dumpshocker opinions out of hand. matter of fact, dumpshock's getting a pretty damn big slice of the input pie, all things considered.
Critias
Right. I'm not saying they're only changing stuff to pee in the old-timer's Wheaties. But it's been made clear that new players are their target audience with this one, s'all I'm saying. If they've gotta pick to get the new blood in or hold onto the old blood as it thins out, they're picking new blood as a priority (which makes sense).
mfb
sure. but Shadow's making it sound like they polled dumpshock to find out what not to do.
sapphire_wyvern
The retention of Contacts, as present in previous editions of SR, is non-trivial. To me, this is actually an important new piece of information.

Very few other games emphasize "who your character knows" as well as "what your character knows", as SR does. I would have been very disappointed if I found out that Contacts were being dropped.

So it's good to see that despite the re-orientation towards lower powered characters, the core RP aspects of the game (Shadowrunning activities and the emphasis on contacts) are definitely being retained.

Critias
QUOTE (mfb)
sure. but Shadow's making it sound like they polled dumpshock to find out what not to do.

Right. But he's been like that for a few weeks. Why try and change his mind?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Syd)
I'm ready to Drink the Kool-Aid smile.gif

Don't you mean Flavor Aid?

biggrin.gif

~J
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 13 2005, 02:31 AM)
Right, 'cause he'd come out and say "It's gonna be crap, no one buy it," even if he could. wink.gif

Actually, yes, I would. Wouldn't be the first time I've gone off the reservation, either (some of the discussions writers and playtesters had during Year of the Comet development come to mind). If I thought it was going to suck, I wouldn't have remained a playtester.
QUOTE
They've been fairly up front on this one, MFB, making it very clear that the purpose of the revision is to re-energize the fan base by drawing in new members.  Almost from the get-go, they've been saying that.

The assumption being, of course, that we want to dump the current fan base, which isn't true. We know some won't come along, but we are, in fact, writing with the current base in mind.

I'm not going to convince you, of course; most of you seem to think I'm just a shill anyway. I'm sorry you feel that way, since it's not true, but there's nothing I can do about it. I've been honest with you guys so far, and I wish you'd trust me to be honest in the future. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
Critias
Reread my post Patrick (or read my next one, or whatever). I'm not insulting anyone. I'm not making any assumptions. I'm stating a fact: new blood is more vital to an RPG than the thinning old blood.

I don't blame you guys for getting in new blood. I understand that you need to. I hope you do, because I want Shadowrun to stay alive as much as anyone else here. I don't think you're purposefully pissing in the Cheerios of the grizzled old veterans, and even if you were it would make perfect business sense and I know that the big decisions are out of most people's hands (so it's not like you, personally, would be the one to blame).

I don't say it like it's a bad thing: "one of the primary functions of SR4's creation and release is to get new players involved.:

Period/paragraph. That's all I'm saying. That's what you guys have even told us. How is it some sort of horrible insult when I say it?
Patrick Goodman
I understand that, Critias, and I wasn't directing it only at you; sorry if it came across that way.
Critias
Well, it was my post that got quoted and replied to. I think it's a fair assumption, that being the case, for me to feel like the comments and replies were directed at me.
brightlight
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Indeed. If Rob wrote that himself, he's a shite marketer. The fact that "we've got the same number of sample characters" made the list… like I said in the other thread, I'm half-surprised he didn't say "we still number the pages".

The fact that FanPro appears to be wholly incapable of marketing effectively isn't good, but when combined with the fact that a big part of the reason for this update is marketing, well…

~J

Gold, Kage. Their press releases on a site that only fans (not new players) visits are inflamatory and surely damaging to their new edition.

Like I said to my group the other day, it's WoD with the word Shadowrun of the cover. That's it.
Demonseed Elite
A major design goal of SR4 is likely a revision aimed at bringing in new players. I can't say that it is, because I didn't decide on these design goals. But the game certainly does need to try to attract new players. If you go outside this SR-centric online community and look at the general gaming online communities like RPGNet, Shadowrun threads are rare. Not many people are talking about it. It doesn't have widespread appeal. If you read the threads, you'll get some ideas why that is the case.

If I go to a bookstore, I can find D&D products on the shelves or White Wolf products on the shelves, but I don't see SR there anymore. I used to.

I'm not trying to sound like a doomsayer, because this isn't end of the world stuff. But the print RPG market is shrinking, and if you're part of it, you have to fight for whatever slice of the pie you can get. Or you sink. White Wolf just cut some of its game lines, because they were non-profitable.

It's not a case where the developers are actively trying to work against the hardcore fans, or even ignore them. But when the developers, writers, etc. sit down and talk about this stuff, we have to come to a middle road. It has to remain a game that we'd be playing, or there's no sense in us working on it. And it also has to address the things that are keeping other people from picking up the book, or the game won't grow, and we all lose.
Cray74
Wow, just reading this thread is giving me deja vu about the ongoing writing of the "Jihad" timeline for Battletech.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Critias)
Well, it was my post that got quoted and replied to. I think it's a fair assumption, that being the case, for me to feel like the comments and replies were directed at me.

And that's my fault for not clarifying things at the time. Again, I apologize.
Kai
QUOTE
Yeah, but polling non SR players about whether or not decker and riggers should be combined into hackers - or that the Karma pool will go away in favor of Edge is like polling 4 year olds about the best car to buy - They just aren't informed enough to make the decision. Or care about the outcome.


And that's all well and good if you're only looking at fixing a broken ruleset, but if you are looking for new players, you don't want to know what they think about deckers and rigger, you want to know why it is that they don't play Shadowrun. If they all say 'Karma pool is confusing' then you realize 'gee, maybe we should do something about that' then you look at your fans and see that they like the Karma pool, so you invent Edge.

If they weren't paying attention to the fan base, don't you think a lot of the rules non players have issues with would have simply vanished? Its a compromise. The fact the the majority of protesters on DSF are unwilling to see it as such is just lending to the reputation of DSF being a bunch of rabid doomsayers.

--//[改]>
Eldritch
QUOTE
... non players have issues with would have simply vanished...


They are vanising - the entire rule set is being rewritten. They've siad that many times now. Ya, there will be some recognizeable things mixed in, but for the most part it looks like everything is being redone.

Rabid Doomsayer?

I'm not rabid....
DrJest
Having read a bunch of threads picking apart SR4 and arguing over it seven ways from Sunday, I'm just going to throw my opinions in here (no point making a thread for it other than personal ego-stroking, and I just don't have that much ego at the moment smile.gif )

Like most people, I was expecting SR4 to be a revision of SR 1-3. To cut a long story short, it isn't. It's a new game. Well, this happens. Babylon 5 went from a unique game design to a d20-based system, for example. The difference between SR3 and SR4 may not be quite so extreme, but what it boils down to is: this is a new game, set in the same universe as SR1-3. I think the sooner we all get our heads round that, the better.

Am I pleased? Nah, not really. I'd have preferred to keep the rules we had instead of bending my head round a new system with familiar names that mean different things (how many dice you picking up, Patrick? smile.gif ).

Will I get (at least) the core rulebook? Sure. Shadowrun's a good universe, and I enjoy it. A different set of rules isn't going to change that, I would think.

Do I think it was the right decision? Again, no, not really. Like many DSers, I think such radical and sweeping change was not necessary. I appreciate the counter-argument about bringing in new blood, and I'm sure the devs have data to support it. I do, however, exercise my right to think they're nuts smile.gif I just think it would have been better to re-work the existing rules rather than write new ones.

Am I going to get snippy at the freelancers and playtesters who try and keep us informed here? Hell no. I'm not planning to suck up to them either (you're nice guys and all, but you just ain't my type wink.gif ), but at the end of the day this wasn't their decision, and they don't need the crap that's getting hurled their way. Were it me, I might have left DS to stew in its own venom, having seen some of the rubbish being thrown around. See, I have to figure the freelancers and the testers are just as emotionally invested in SR as the rest of us, if not more so, or they wouldn't be playing the gig in the first place. So while the orders have come down from On High that SR is going to change, I have to trust that they'll keep that change from screwing our shared hallucination.

Oh... the street level thing. I've seen some posts saying the new edition is looking to have a more street-level feel. Definitely not something I like, or even think is a good idea. The core of Shadowrun is the Shadowrunner, a professional criminal (be he an Al Capone or a Robin Hood, whichever) with the skills and the tech to do the job. YMMV.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (DrJest)
...(how many dice you picking up, Patrick? smile.gif ).

Depends entirely on the test. I'm a much more mental test kinda guy; physically, I'm pretty average, if you ignore my height. Much bigger dice pool with mental tests.... biggrin.gif
Shadow
QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (mfb @ Apr 13 2005, 02:52 AM)
sure. but Shadow's making it sound like they polled dumpshock to find out what not to do.

Right. But he's been like that for a few weeks. Why try and change his mind?

That was not my intent. I was just saying that DSF wasn't polled. The reason I was given was that DSF wasn't an adequate sample. I countered by saying it was.

AS for the mind changing, you will notice I am no longer arguing vehemently about SR4. Synner made it quite clear to me that it is coming out, and there will be no major changes to the system before august.

At this point I am not fighting the madness. Simply stating my displeasure at the direction Fanpro, oh heck lets just say it, Rob, is taking the game.

It occurred to me last night that I have invested an inordinate amount of time and money in my life in this 'game'. Since I was 16 I have been playing it and spending money on it and thinking about it. I'm 32 now so that’s a lot of time. So do I feel a sense of entitlement.

I am not slamming anyone. Least of Patrick who has gone out of his way to keep us in the loop. Do I agree with his assessment of the new game? No. I recognize that he and I have a different opinion of what makes Shadowrun, Shadowrun.

Like Doc Jest, I say that what they are trying to accomplish could have been done by keeping the 3ed rules or at the very least the core mechanic. I feel Rob has taken this opportunity, not to just make new fans, but to exercise his creative control over the game and take it in a new direction. After August Shadowrun will truly be a Fanpro creation as all vestiges of the old mechanic are shed.

This is their right. They can do it. I simply do not agree with it. And I don't think simply cause he owns Shadowrun that he can make it whatever he wants and call it Shadowrun.
Synner
QUOTE (Shadow @ Apr 14 2005, 12:39 AM)
AS for the mind changing, you will notice I am no longer arguing vehemently about SR4. Synner made it quite clear to me that it is coming out, and there will be no major changes to the system before august.

Not entirely correct. What was said was that a) it is definitely coming out in August, and b) there will be no major changes to any of the systems announced. There's a lot of stuff that hasn't been announced or addressed that will definitely see further changes until the book is off to the printers.

QUOTE
It occurred to me last night that I have invested an inordinate amount of time and money in my life in this 'game'. Since  I was 16 I have been playing it and spending money on it and thinking about it. I'm 32 now so that’s a lot of time. So do I feel a sense of entitlement.

Unsurprisingly so do a lot of the people involved in writing SR4. Many of whom have been playing this game for just as long.

QUOTE
Like Doc Jest, I say that what they are trying to accomplish could have been done by keeping the 3ed rules or at the very least the core mechanic. I feel Rob has taken this opportunity, not to just make new fans, but to exercise his creative control over the game and take it in a new direction.

By way of pointing out the sort of mistaken assumptions that are often fielded - I would just like to remind you've that FanPro US is still part of FanPro D. A decision like this which admittedly changes the course of development for an entire viable game line is rare made by one person alone in this or any other industry. And please don't go reading more into that than the simple constatation that Rob is part of a larger hierarchy.

QUOTE
After August Shadowrun will truly be a Fanpro creation as all vestiges of the old mechanic are shed.

I wouldn't say all vestiges of the old system.

QUOTE
This is their right. They can do it. I simply do not agree with it. And I don't think simply cause he owns Shadowrun that he can make it whatever he wants and call it Shadowrun.

That's simply because you are ruling out even the possibility that a new system can be as good (or better) than the existing one (in terms of complementing the setting and gameplay and perpetuating the traditional SR atmosphere and playstyle) based on what is known. Just because something is good does not mean we should not aspire to do better. There is no guarantee that FanPro will succeed but you're writing off even the possibility; something which IMHO is a rather reactionary view.

I would just like to say that if, as a long time fan, you feel that the recent books are, by and large, successful at capturing the feel of Shadowrun then its likely SR4 will follow in their spirit (since a lot of the people involved are the same). If you haven't liked the direction and style FanPro has taken in the past 3 years then you're probably not going to like SR4 - though I'd submit you wouldn't have liked where SR3 would have gone either.
Penta
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman)
QUOTE (DrJest @ Apr 13 2005, 06:41 PM)
...(how many dice you picking up, Patrick? smile.gif ).

Depends entirely on the test. I'm a much more mental test kinda guy; physically, I'm pretty average, if you ignore my height. Much bigger dice pool with mental tests.... biggrin.gif

More seriously, if we're going to be rolling hordes of dice...Will FanPro be selling things to roll the dice in so the hordes of dice now needed won't go flying away and under the couch and bouncing off to hit someone in the face....(All of which I've seen happen)?
Penta
QUOTE (Shadow)
That was not my intent. I was just saying that DSF wasn't polled. The reason I was given was that DSF wasn't an adequate sample. I countered by saying it was.

Actually...Shadow...

No, DSF isn't.

Not for a scientifically valid poll.

One, we have too few people (assuming a normal response rate). Two, there's little way to safeguard against multiple voting. Three, the sample is not random. Four, the sample is not statistically stratified, nor balanced. Five, the poll could not be time-limited.

Anybody who's spent any significant time as an interviewer doing what is variously called "market research", "opinion research", or simply "surveying" (usually by telephone to randomly-dialed numbers) can tell you that all of those matter. (They've probably spent long nights suffering through all manner of respondents trying to find that one last person that passed through the screening questions at least once...I have.)

So...while DSF's opinions would be interesting, they would not be representative of anyone but those whose fingers type them.
blakkie
QUOTE (Penta @ Apr 13 2005, 07:36 PM)
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 13 2005, 07:08 PM)
QUOTE (DrJest @ Apr 13 2005, 06:41 PM)
...(how many dice you picking up, Patrick? smile.gif ).

Depends entirely on the test. I'm a much more mental test kinda guy; physically, I'm pretty average, if you ignore my height. Much bigger dice pool with mental tests.... biggrin.gif

More seriously, if we're going to be rolling hordes of dice...Will FanPro be selling things to roll the dice in so the hordes of dice now needed won't go flying away and under the couch and bouncing off to hit someone in the face....(All of which I've seen happen)?

Hmm, including complementary die, i've been up to 20ish dice before and it wasn't too bad. That's why I switch to the 12mm mini-d6s. Chessex sells them in the 36-pack (3x3 by 4 dice high), which I'd hope would be enough. They are small enough that you can comfortable roll mid-teens of them in front of you.

The worst part was keeping the complementary die separate. I bought two 36 packs which I split recombined for 18 and 18 of two different colors. That allowed ease of used for complementary die, plus made it easier to count out the dice from different sources.
Penta
Well, thing is...The ordinary D6 is hard to see already. A miniD6 would invite eyestrain.
blakkie
Just make sure you pick an eye-easy colour with a strongly contrasting pip colour, not those silly speckled dice. The Chessex ones have a pip size that is close to that of the 25mm dice, and they use up more of the side of the dice. So the difference isn't nearly as bad. After that you are just going by the 'shape' of the pip groupings anyway, not counting the pips.

Of course this doesn't apply if you have poor eyesight, then it's going to be a bitch anyway you look at it. frown.gif EDIT: Pun unintended.
Eldritch
QUOTE
That's simply because you are ruling out even the possibility that a new system can be as good (or better) than the existing one (in terms of complementing the setting and gameplay and perpetuating the traditional SR atmosphere and playstyle) based on what is known. Just because something is good does not mean we should not aspire to do better. There is no guarantee that FanPro will succeed but you're writing off even the possibility; something which IMHO is a rather reactionary view



I don't think he's doubting it might possibly be better or as good as SR3.

I think he's saying that a completly new system was unneccessary. SR3 Could have been cleaned up, re organized, and reprinted. The all of the money and effort they're putting into Sr$ could be directed toward advertising and publicity.



That's How I feel about it anyway. I don't doubt their right. I don't doubt their ability to create something at least as good as SR3. I just think they could have stuck with the core rules as published and evolving for the last 15 years. They've decided to throw all of htat out - a unique and working system in favor of something new.

As I've said before, they're taking a chance, I hope it works out for them.
Shadow
QUOTE (Eldritch)
QUOTE
That's simply because you are ruling out even the possibility that a new system can be as good (or better) than the existing one (in terms of complementing the setting and gameplay and perpetuating the traditional SR atmosphere and playstyle) based on what is known. Just because something is good does not mean we should not aspire to do better. There is no guarantee that FanPro will succeed but you're writing off even the possibility; something which IMHO is a rather reactionary view



I don't think he's doubting it might possibly be better or as good as SR3.

I think he's saying that a completly new system was unneccessary. SR3 Could have been cleaned up, re organized, and reprinted. The all of the money and effort they're putting into Sr$ could be directed toward advertising and publicity.



That's How I feel about it anyway. I don't doubt their right. I don't doubt their ability to create something at least as good as SR3. I just think they could have stuck with the core rules as published and evolving for the last 15 years. They've decided to throw all of htat out - a unique and working system in favor of something new.

As I've said before, they're taking a chance, I hope it works out for them.

That pretty much somes it up. Thanks Eldritch.
SirBedevere
I completely agree with you too Eldritch.


It is of course entirely up to FanPro in which direction they take Shadowrun and I don't have a problem with that. I just happen to disagree with their decision. No one starts out to create a poor rules system, all game developers try their hardest to create the best thing since sliced bread but, being human, don't always succeed. FASA tried three times with Shadowrun but judging by what people have been saying they didn't succeed. It will in my opinion be a very difficult task to create a new rules system that will be able to encapsulate the interactions between magic, cyberware, hacker technology et al, without being cumbersome or having many subsequent exceptions to that rules system. I wish the developers every success in that arduous task.

I will of course be buying the SR4 book. Apart from wanting to know how the background has progressed, I want to find out what good ideas I can use in my own games. smile.gif
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