For system tests as well as combat?

I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that the system tests were at the superfast rate and only combat was based on the 3 second round.

If your planning on keeping all of the games background information (Which Im assuming you would, who would want to change it???) perhaps you could include some sort of primer on Earthdawn links somewhere, as making sense of it all can sometimes be a little confusing for novices such as myself!!!

Nope. I mean, there's an initiative kick (so Deckers will almost always have more passes than their comparably-equipped meatfellows), but other than that things work on the same pass system within the three-second turn. Because of Hacking Pool, non-combat, non-highly-rushed actions tend to occur more like once every three seconds.

The Question: That's what we have Ancient History for

~J

Reposted from another discussion; thought it might have relevance here:


As for too much cyber at chargen issue, I'd be perfectly fine ditching the million and 650k options at chargen. In fact I'd go further, stretching the resource priorities into:

-5pts = 500Y
0pts = 5000Y
5pts = 20,000Y
10pts = 65,000Y
15pts = 125,000Y
20pts = 250,000Y
25pts = 400,000Y

or maybe even more, making 400kY the 30-pt option:

-5pts = 500Y
0pts = 5000Y
5pts = 20,000Y
10pts = 50,000Y
15pts = 90,000Y
20pts = 150,000Y
25pts = 250,000Y
30pts = 400,000Y

The changed resource limit would work just fine provided thus:

1) Make it so deckers don't have to pay so damn much for their programs (currently the decker is the main reason for the million nuyen option anyway).
2) Try not to let riggers get too screwed by it.
3) Cyberlimbs (Edit: and maybe a few other selected bits of 'ware) get lowered in cost, possibly just cutting their base price to a fifth or a tenth of what it is right now.
4) Surgery rules aren't *as* horrifically difficult and prone to failure post-chargen. In particular the "Essence hole" option should be automatic rather than a positive option.

The problem with doing this is that it means that sams start right out of chargen muc weaker than they are now, and the power disparity between mage and sam will become obvious much earlier (say the 150-200 karma mark instead of 350+).

I don't know if I like that one - I don't have a problem with char gen - or too much cyber at char gen.


I think I'd just leave the char gen rules alone, and offer some options for different campaign levels.

I like having a charcter that is in the middle of their career. I'm quite tired of playing '1st level' characters.

As was mentioned in anoyther discussion, I think that is one of SR's draws. Characters that are capable of doing 'great things'.

And if you do limit the nuyen, there by limiting beginning cyber, then what about the magic chars? Limit those as well?

No, I'd rather see the chargen rules stay as is.

Eyeless: I looked around and couldn't find that discussion, what problem is that supposed to fix?

~J

The problem people seem to be objecting to is that the mllion nuyen option makes characters--sams in particular, but also riggers--too powerful at chargen. I can *kinda* see where this is coming from, and now that you're streamlining the Matrix rules and getting rid of a lot of the operational utilities the main reason for the million nuyen option (so the decker doesn't get screwed) goes away. Note that this doesn't mean that starting characters get that much weaker; all it does is keep sams and riggers from being too incredibly powerful right out of the gate.

While I don't like the sound of it right now, I'll put it on the list for discussion. I personally think it makes the most sense to do chargen changes, if any, last so that they can be balanced against a final ruleset rather than one that's subject to change.

~J

[dammit; wrong nick again]

Actually I think it might be a good idea to resolve the issue of the level of resources at chargen right now. For instance, if we did this then we wouldn't have to mess with the multipliers on the programs in the Decker thread; since the average wealth level is decreasing you can decrese the amount of cash the decker needs to spend on programs to compensate.

Accounts, man, accounts.

I disagree that a million nuyen makes streetsams too powerful at chargen. Riggers you've got an argument, but they're massively overpowered anyway.

~J

A million nuyen is a lot for a starting Sam, unless they're getting massive amounts of alphaware.. 400k is more than I use on one when I create them. Means I tend to have a lot of toys as well as a lifestyle bought for several months. I wouldn't know what to do with a million nuyen. Wouldn't know if it's overpowered either. Only time I've seen a million nuyen street sam, he was a bit of a moron, so we cut him up and sold him. Didn't seem too tough...

That being said, I kindof like the option.. given enough time to create the character, you can play the rich punk with more alphaware stuffed in him then sense, all plugged in out of teenage rebellion because it's 'cool'..

also, a million allows some broadness in charictors. If you are in a small party and you dont' want to have to farm out too much stuff, with a million new yen you can have one Sam buy a decent car with some upgrades, while another might aford a ok deck and some programs, neather can cope with a full rigger or decker, but they can help cover the bases for a small team.

25000/6 = 4166 which would barely pay the monthly insurance premiums. Your rigger does have insurance right?

While we're on it, if a PC can get health insurance (such as DocWagon, who'll come into a warzone on the right plan) why couldn't a character get vehicle insurance for such instances?

Back on topic: When does SR3R - Rigger Reflux start?

I'm hoping to get back into the swing of things with the Matrix and have a lot of major issues sorted by the end of the week, end of next week at the latest. After that I intend to move on to Rigging, though there was a motion above to get into Ranged Combat. Rigging is still the most likely second place, though people are free to chime in with their preferred next directions (and, as always, to continue offering suggestions for unopened sections here).

~J

Things I'd like to see changed, off the top of my head:

1. Vehicular armor and drones - there's got to be a better way than the current, binary "immune to weapons so you might as well spit on it / can actually be hurt, so it's dead meat because of very low Body" system.

1a. Revise the costs of repairing damaged or disabled drones, so riggers don't go broke because of lost drones, or protect their drones at all costs even if it means more risk for the other flesh and blood team members.

2. Immunity to Normal Weapons - same problem with binary outcomes as in point #1.

3. Problems with the current initiative system and melee combat - namely, the issue with people effectively getting punished for having multiple actions if they go up against someone more skilled than they are.

4. At the very least, a look at the way combat skills have either been split up and grouped, with an eye for something that makes more sense. Not a comeback to SR2 and a 'Firearms" skill, but something that makes more sense than assault rifles and rifles being different skills, and harpoons and claymores both falling under "Polearms".

5. A revision of all chemical and poison-based weapons, to make sure that being hit with pepper spray is not a lot more debilitating than being shot twice with a large-caliber handgun. (also, clear and reasonable rules on how armor affects chemical delivery systems like the narcojet)

6. Improvement (or removal of) called shot rules, since the current ones make no sense.

Oh hell yeah. Called shot for anything other than special effect is gone.

Regarding 1a, sorry

~J

Well, I was specifically thinking about when we were at that tunnel intersection and the zombies lobbed a grenade our way, and my Strato raped physics in its hasty exit…

~J

I disagree when it comes to changing either point-values or priorities for character generation. Remember, this is a revision, not an overhaul. Changing things to be more streamlined is one thing, but changing character generation invalidates current SR3 books, and that's not the goal here (at least, I don't think it is). Adding the rules from MJLBB for high-powered and low-powered campaigns to the current character generation schemes should be reasonable enough.

I'm sure we'll discuss riggers and hardened/vehicular armor in another thread coming up. My thought is that there should be at least one additional method to harm hardened armor other than AV ammo/rockets. Or at least, an "optional rule" section on common tactics to take out drones/vehicles without pulling out the big guns. I think mechanics-wise, hardened armor works fine, but the examples of vehicles/drones with hardened armor hits both extremes (all or none)... it's either Steel Lynx or Mini-blimp. The addition of ablative armor (from Rigger 3 Revised and SOTA:2064) helps, but it should be listed with the main rules.

Eh? Ablative armor helps? You need to hit a vehicle with an attack Power three times the adjusted armor value to reduce the value!

Wait. Ablative armor says it isn't hardened and doesn't stage damage. Does that mean it also takes that away from the vehicle it's on? If so, why would anyone take it?

~J

You can do that with regular armor too, and you don't have the problem of making the vehicle in question instantly security-grade (if not military-grade).

~J

Still working on Decking, but I wanted to toss this idea out and let it get batted about: some cyberware is marked as "Common" and the Used price for that cyber is divided by something large like 4. The intention of this would be to make certain cyber (spurs, low-end cyberlimbs, etc.) more feasible for ganger-type characters. Opinions or alternate suggestions?

~J

I've been thinking about your suggestions for cyberware, and these are my ideas for items that could be called 'Common':

• Chipjack
• Cyberears
• Cybereyes
• Datajack (should be very cheap)
• Subvocal microphone
• Telephone
• Cyberlimbs (BTW I think their Essence cost should be 0.5)
• Autoinjector
• Biomonitor system
• Handblade
• Handrazors
• Smartlink (I'm not too sure about this one though)
• Spur

BTW, I'm assuming you're talking about 2060s tech, not 2070. While these items may not be the most useful to gangers etc., I think that they would be the most 'common' of used items.

Right now I'm still focusing on the SR1-3 canon timeframe of 2050-2065.

~J

Thanks for the clarification Kagetenshi.

Shockwave, I agree with you, but as you say that's for another thread.

Maybe not the subvocal mike, though. What would a ganger need with that, and why would such a specialized item be cheap? A cybergun, though, and cyberskates I could see being cheap. How about autoinjectors, and dermal plating? Maybe wired Reflexes 1 (but not the Reflex Trigger)?

Ironically enough Boosted Reflexes would not make sense, as it can't be pulled out of someone and reused. I may follow Doc Funk's lead and introduce the "bad batch" with the same modifications as used, though.

~J

Well you can certainly *try* and take the chemical treatment out of the nerves. Just melt the whole body in a big vat, then filter out the chemicals you want...

I did say that all the items wouldn't be useful to gangers etc. The items I mentioned are those that IMO would be 'common' as used cyberware. I can see many people wanting the subvocal microphone so that they can speak on the phone without others hearing.

Cyberskates? Yes, quite possibly. Cybergun, I'm not so sure about. What do other people think about it?

Right, well, I'm still primarily focusing on the Matrix rules, but I realize that they're not an area that most people have a lot of experience with. I was originally going to go to Vehicle rules next, but it was pointed out that a lot of that stuff has major prerequisites. Therefore, I'd like to open discussion for what will be the next thread to be opened: Ranged Combat.

What do you want to see?

~J

I'm assuming that one of your goals IS NOT making combat 'more realistic'.

Suggestion #1: Changing how damage is staged up. New way -

Step 1: Attacker attacks and counts up successes.
Step 2: Defender dodges, subtracts successes from attackers successes, must get one more success than attacker rolled to completely dodge.
Step 3: Stage up damage. For every 2 beyond deadly raise power by one.
Step 4: Soak.

A lot of people play this way anyways. It changes combat in a few ways.
1. The peculiar adept who shoots people with shot rounds at a TN that is always 2 and simply ends up with so many successes that they simply don't have enough dice to stage it down completely - He simply no longer works.

2. It shifts the system in favor of the defender at the higher end. A defender no longer needs to eliminate all of the successes beyond deadly in order to have a chance to stage down damage, he simply needs to get two successes to bring it down to Serious.

3. It makes the ranged and melee combat systems work the same, assuming you don't change melee too.

Suggestion #1.5 - Slant combat in favor of the defender in both melee and ranged.
Make it so you only need to eliminate all of an attackers successes at dodge to get a clean miss in both ranged combat and melee. I don't like tests going to one party or the other in ties. It feels wrong for someone to be able to successfully hit someone without any net successes.

Suggestion #2 - More modifiers outlined.

I'd like to see more modifiers for ranged combat outlined. For example, modifiers for shooting at prone people, modifiers for shooting at really fast things, etc.

Suggestion #3 - Make the called shot rules work.
In my opinion, we should make the idea of a called shot absolutely unappealing for anything but dramatic purposes, like shooting someone in the leg to stop them from getting away, shooting the gun out of the bad guys hand, etc. We should not reward PCs for having every single shot be a called shot to the head.

Suggestion #4 - Make shotgun rounds stop qualifying as WMDs.
I realize I said wasn't advocating more realism...But I'm going to make an exception here and say that this is so immersion-shattering it isn't even funny. 10 meter wide cone of death? No.

Indeed, making combat more realistic is not one of my goals. I have no problem with it being a side-effect, but it's not a primary focus.

Regarding changing melee combat, it will likely see alterations as well.

More on the rest when I've thought about it a bit more. Regarding #3, called shots for anything but special effect do not exist in SR3R.

~J

Ok, let's see...

1. Think about whether any revision needs to be done to the ranged weapon skills themselves. I'm not saying go back to having "Firearms" like in SR2, but the current system goes too far in the opposite direction, IMO.

2. Shotguns. Scrap the current idiotic system entirely - my suggestion would be something simple, like having shot rounds reduce the TN required to hit slightly in exchange for a noticeable drop in power. Realism might not be a primary goal here, but a line has to be drawn somewhere...

3. More of a general combat issue - since realism is not a primary concern, silly shit like dart guns, narcojet, gas grenades, even freakin' pepper spray should be adjusted for game balance, so that getting hit with pepper spray is not more disabling than taking a solid hit from a light pistol, and so on.

4. Clearly define the rules for chemical and poison delivery vs. an armored target.

5. Again, going off topic a bit, but it happens in all kinds of combat: Clarify and simplify the rules for things catching fire...

6. Make the Cannon Companion modifers for varying amounts of cover a part of the core rules.

I know there was more stuff I had in mind, but my memory is being flaky, so more later. Probably...

Regarding #5, should I be making sure to clarify and simplify the rules for lighting zombies on fire?

~J

I've never been on the wrong end of pepper spray, but I have been exposed to CS gas and it is very unpleasant! Get a good(?) lungful of that and you have problems doing anything.