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=-_RaVeN_-=
This is a good question, and one I'd like to see everyone throw a word er two in about (why they answered yes er no, and maybe some alternatives).
Fortune
It totally depends on the character.
Polaris
Guys,

Fortune is right. It does depend on the character very strongly. I played one Sam (a Bio-Sam and an experiment on my part) that needed to change his identity as often as his socks (actually more). Obviously, there was no SIN for him....

OTOH, I have found that in most cases and under most circumstances, you are better off with a SIN. That is especially true if you are awakened because if you have a SIN, you have legal rights including the right to purchase Permits and hold down a living (and thus launder money). This is especially true if you take the flaw "Day Job" which I strongly recommend that most runners should take at level one (and no more).

That doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful, and that doesn't obviate the need for fake identification, but I have found that the disadvantages of being SINless far outweight the advantages....even in the Shadows.

-Polaris
toturi
Most of the time a SIN is an asset, therefore I would take the SIN for the convenience if nothing else. I've not gotten SSG, so I wouldn't know how exactly SIN fits into the great scheme of things. But I do think that a SIN would be more useful than a liability.

The times where a SIN is a drawback is those times or players that answer everything with a gun. Biological evidence left behind, photgraphic evidence, etc would lead the cops to you more easily if you had a SIN.
Sphynx
Yeah, anytime you have something you can't hide; like plans to permanently sustain some spells on yourself, certain cyberware, cyberdeck, or illegal (without a permit) vehicle. You really should have a SIN. Leave the SIN at home when you go on a run, but don't be caught using something without a SIN. SIN is a must-have.

Sphynx
Polaris
Sphynx,

Even if you have decided to permanently sustain spells on yourself, a SIN is still an asset. You simply make sure you *always* make sure you clean up after yourself as if your life depended on it....because it does.

Seriously, if you take a combat round or two (you did take Astral Chameleon right?), you can almost always clean up even the dirtiest of Astral Crime scenes. Astral/Magic crime is easier to clean up than almost any other crime. It is the Street-Sam with his SMGs that I feel sorry for....because after one run Lonestar will have a full ballistic fingerprint on those. Not so for magic.

-Polaris
Crusher Bob
The main thing I have against having a SIN is that it makes it much simpler to turn a small bit of evidence into a complete portfolio. If you dump your guns after each run, then only your MO matters. You dump all the clothing and vehiles too.
Crimson Jack
This question is similar to asking, "is it better to be a hermetic or shamanic character?" The correct answer depends on what kind of character the player wants to make. I said that it's better to have a SIN though as there are plenty of benefits to be had by being a "legal" member of society. Then again, low-level back alley games are fun too. One isn't necessarily better than the other. Both are good in a story-driven game. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Polaris)
(you did take Astral Chameleon right?)

Maybe, maybe not. Not everyone does. Often it just flat-out doesn't make sense for the character. Not everyone is an astral chameleon, otherwise it wouldn't be an edge.
Me, every character thus far that I've played has had an actual SIN because of their background. That's what I use to determine that, nothing more.

~J
Sphynx
Polaris,

Not sure why you commented like you did, we both said the same thing pretty much (and of COURSE I took Astral Chameleon). Surely you perused my character sheet. wink.gif

I'd never be without a SIN. As a matter of Fact, I'd never DREAM of Quickening anything to myself without a Valid SIN.

Sphynx
Polaris
Sphynx,

On this I think we agree more than we disagree. I was just pointing out that if you are careful, leaving magical fingerprints is less of a problem than the books make out. However, I think we see eye to eye here on the essentials. In general it is better to have a SIN.....in general, that may differ for your campaign or character.

-Polaris
Frag-o Delux
I'll agree with the guys who said it depends on the character. Some of my characters have one, the rest don't. My cat burglar does, just because his background story says he does, because he is a chef at a resturant during the day robbing the rich at night. My Hougan doesn't becaus he is completely a street level barren rat, he usually pays the runners in his group a percentage to do things for him that needs a SIN. But after about a dozen runs or so the SINless usually can afford a nice fake SIN.
Userlimit
(glances nervously around) Not me chummers, just one more for em to trace me.
BitBasher
I don't see HOW you can run with a SIN... having a SIN is a high point flaw in my games. Leave behind a single trace of DNA, a fingerprint, a facial reconstruction of what you look like behind a soft mask and that's it, youre screwed.

Let's not forget you have to pay taxes, get a drivers license and register your vehicles. All your transactions are logged. You have to explain where all your "deniable income" comes from. You are expected to use a legal credstick for all transactions. Don't use that credstick for a few days, a week while in a foreign country and it sets off flags... the list goes on and on and on...

I think its FAR more difficult to be a runner with a SIN than you all think it is...
Icepick
QUOTE (Fortune)
It totally depends on the character.

I say I'd second that, but it's already been seconded. I'm all up for a nice sometimes.
toturi
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Let's not forget you have to pay taxes, get a drivers license and register your vehicles. All your transactions are logged. You have to explain where all your "deniable income" comes from. You are expected to use a legal credstick for all transactions. Don't use that credstick for a few days, a week while in a foreign country and it sets off flags... the list goes on and on and on...

Really? Then tell me why the corps would want to issue corp script or why certified cred sticks are in existance? I do not know the prevalence of certified cred in your games but I take it that it is as prevalent as cheques or credit cards, just not as prevalent as cash in RL. (I really need to get that SSG.)

Anyway, someone can have a SIN and not use it for any transactions. Read up the Underworld sourcebook for some ideas on cleaning your dirty money.
BitBasher
The underworld sourcebook tells us that Certified cred can be traced too, because the act of putting cash on a certified credstick is a recorded bank transaction, and every transaction that certified credstick makes is also a recorded back transaction. It just takes a little more work. That doesn't solve anything.
The White Dwarf
Im sure this is just me, but as much of an advantage having a SIN can be (and trust me, I see the numerous advantages) I cant stand having it because of the "what if its traced" factor. Yea, you can make the chance slim by playing smart, but what if. Besides which, (/streetsam on) not having a SIN hasnt caused any problems I cant shoot my way out of yet....
Sphynx
Couple of things. As mentioned in previous threads, just don't go doing things that the Feds, rightfully so, put you on their top 10 list. This may be a game about criminals, but it's also a game about RobinHood style criminals. People that go shooting at security guards, killing the innocents by the hundreds, well, I'll personally help LoneStar hunt them down. Play smart, and you create a much smaller crime scene.

As for paying taxes, having a day job, etc, etc, etc. It's actually harder NOT to do those things than to do them. Why wouldn't you want to have a nice day job to use as an alibi?

More importantly however, what do you do when you DO get stopped randomly by some security force like Lone Star and you have something they consider illegal? Shoot your way out, run'em over with your car, etc, etc? Or just flash your SIN and Permit and be on your way home without being on the evening news as a Cop Killer with the whole damn city's force on your ass?

Sphynx
Crusher Bob
That's easy, I show them my fake SIN and fake permit. If the heat ever gets too hot, I just dump te old fake for anew one.
Sphynx
Then you are lucky, your Lone Star types don't have Rating 6 Verification systems making a 50/50 chance that your Fake SIN works... In our games, security such as LoneStar have at least Rating 6, making it foolish to even have a Fake.

I admit, in a game where cops are happy to just see a SIN and don't go through a tough verification process, a Fake SIN is FAR better than a real SIN, unfortunately, that's not the case in our games.

Sphynx
BitBasher
By canon the credstick readers that are mobile in cop cars are rating 2 or 3... IIRC the highest rating credstick reader that is portable, in a large briefcase is a rating 4. A rating 6 is used by financial institutions and costs over half a million nuyen.

Of course, im remembering all this from Sprawl Sites... and I don't remember if the numbers changed. You have to pass a crtedstick reader no higher that 5 IIRC to get illegal weapon permits in a government building...

Rating 6 in a car?? holy crap!!
Sphynx
Never had Sprawl Sites, but the SR3 book says rating 3's are portable. I guess that depends on how you define portable, guess we defined it as hand-held. Meaning a vehicle could easily hold a Rating 6.

But I think you're right, I think we've just mis-interpreted the rule and thus led alot of us to staying 'legal'.

Sphynx
Black Isis
Personally, I tend to have characters who at one time had a legal SIN (for example, my Silhouette CORE example character, Svetlana Markova), but usually, they have "fallen off the map" somehow. In Svetlana's case, she is missing and presumed dead after the Chicago crisis, so Eagle Security and everyone else isn't really paying attention to her, plus her jobs don't tend to be super high profile (or even illegal really). In a case where she needs to use a valid SIN, she can use her original one, but of course she keeps a couple of fake ones around of varying utility for most usual stuff. Plus, since her real SIN is still listed as a licensed security provider and ex-military, she has more options open to her for special licenses.

Most of my characters tend to have been ex-military or ex-law enforcement types, so this sort of thing is fairly usual for me, but yeah, if I was making a character specifically who was NOT like that, it would all depend on the rest of their background.
Abrojus
How much trouble can a sin-less get if you try to travel by plane?

TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Abrojus)
How much trouble can a sin-less get if you try to travel by plane?

Quite a lot. Someone once told me the readers at the airport are rating 8 (I didn't see it in print, myself, so this could well be wrong). Travelling by commercial jet requires a SIN.
=-_RaVeN_-=
QUOTE (BitBasher)
I don't see HOW you can run with a SIN... having a SIN is a high point flaw in my games. Leave behind a single trace of DNA, a fingerprint, a facial reconstruction of what you look like behind a soft mask and that's it, youre screwed.

Great, so your entire campaign is dependant on Fixers...

(notes down in he P.S. to KILL all the team's fixers, then repeatedly attack them, till they run out of ammo and equipment)...

...and also depends entirely on back-alley surgeons/medics to deal with bio/cyberware...

(makes sure to bribe/intimidate as many street-docz as possible, so that the party can no longer repair/upgrade/install bio/cyberware [even the LEGAL stuff])...

Shall I go on?
=-_RaVeN_-=
QUOTE (Sphynx)


More importantly however, what do you do when you DO get stopped randomly by some security force like Lone Star and you have something they consider illegal? Shoot your way out, run'em over with your car, etc, etc? Or just flash your SIN and Permit and be on your way home without being on the evening news as a Cop Killer with the whole damn city's force on your ass?

EXCELLENT point...

As a licenced Body-guard, courier, etc (I'm sure I can come up with lotz o' other excuses! [smirk]), you can get away with a random search...

L.S. Officer: "Excuse me Mr. Yamlik, why are you carrying a Colt Manhunter pistol?"

Yamlik: (produces carrying/transport permit) "I'm a hired body-guard."

No more trouble than that...

The SERIOUS questions can be toned down as well...

"Mr. Artemov, WHY do are our sensors malfunctioning when we attempt to scan your vehicle?" (that's a case for "reasonable suspion" and "cause to search" if I ever heard one...)

(produces business card and licence) "I'm a bonded courier; can't have the bad-guys trackin' me down for some of the special cargo I'm paid to transit now, can we officer?"
Drain Brain
Permits etc. are priced in the core rulebook, right (if a little difficult to see)? What about other, assosciated things?

I mean, to take the example above of the licensed bodyguard: Fine, you've got that as a "job" and therefore have a reason to get a firearms permit but IIRC, in real life, Bodyguards go through extensive training to get their jobs and liscences.

So how much, in game terms, would that sort of thing cost?

Or something like membership in a Courier's union?

Does that appear anywhere? And if not, are you all prepared to make up charges for your players?

*grins at the thought of extracting additional chargen cash... PAY FOR YOUR BACKGROUND, SWINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*
BitBasher
QUOTE
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Sep 14 2003, 05:54 PM)
I don't see HOW you can run with a SIN... having a SIN is a high point flaw in my games. Leave behind a single trace of DNA, a fingerprint, a facial reconstruction of what you look like behind a soft mask and that's it, youre screwed.

Great, so your entire campaign is dependant on Fixers...

Not dependant on, but yes they do definitely serve an important role.

QUOTE
(notes down in he P.S. to KILL all the team's fixers, then repeatedly attack them, till they run out of ammo and equipment)...

That would be pointless, they get their weapons and ammo from shadow sources. They sure as hell don't go and buy mass quantities of ammo from Bob's Gun World. That's the point of Dealer, Weaponsmith and Armorer contacts. Furthermore the repercussions for anyone going out and killing a number of fixers would be extreme to say the least, think of all the angry SR's that use those fixers, and the other fixers that think they may be next to take preemptive action. Hell, most weapons and ammo can be found directly on the street with an appropriate etiquitte skill at a very low target number.

QUOTE
...and also depends entirely on back-alley surgeons/medics to deal with bio/cyberware...
Illegal implantation and equipment is rarely legal anyway. Most good doctor contacts are legitimate doctors and surgeouns that make a nice tax free bonus income on the side. Also count corps that are extraterritorial and like to work out surgery or ware in lieu of payment, as that costs them significantly less than paying in the equivalent cash.

QUOTE
(makes sure to bribe/intimidate as many street-docz as possible, so that the party can no longer repair/upgrade/install bio/cyberware [even the LEGAL stuff])...
No reason to. Besides you NEVER intimidate a street doc, you develop a mutually beneficial working relationship.

Furthermore a rating 8 fake credstick will beat almost all scans for transactions valued at under 500,000 nuyen reliably. If they wanted badly to go through legitimate channels they could do so that way.

If you want to reply to this please instead start a new thread, as I don't wish to hijack this thread any further. Thanks.
=-_RaVeN_-=
QUOTE (Drain Brain)
Permits etc. are priced in the core rulebook, right (if a little difficult to see)? What about other, assosciated things?

I mean, to take the example above of the licensed bodyguard: Fine, you've got that as a "job" and therefore have a reason to get a firearms permit but IIRC, in real life, Bodyguards go through extensive training to get their jobs and liscences.

So how much, in game terms, would that sort of thing cost?

Or something like membership in a Courier's union?

Does that appear anywhere? And if not, are you all prepared to make up charges for your players?

*grins at the thought of extracting additional chargen cash... PAY FOR YOUR BACKGROUND, SWINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*

TRAINING to become a BODY-GUARD?!

"You two trolls! Stand in front of me... If anyone shoots at me, you stop the bullet..." (smirk)

I might take it as a KNOWLEDGE skill (Bodyguard Tactics)

Courier's UNION?!

Don't you have any "mom-and-pop" delivery services where you are? They're RAMPANT up here, and only require you to be "bonded" (have a clean record, provided by the [in game terms] local government police force).

I believe the LICENCING of ILLEGAL/SEMI-LEGAL equipment would cover the cost of any payment (considerin' that from what I can gather, it'z gonna be hefty).
=-_RaVeN_-=
QUOTE (BitBasher)

Not dependant on, but yes they do definitely serve an important role.

That would be pointless, they get their weapons and ammo from shadow sources. They sure as hell don't go and buy mass quantities of ammo from Bob's Gun World. That's the point of Dealer, Weaponsmith and Armorer contacts. Furthermore the repercussions for anyone going out and killing a number of fixers would be extreme to say the least, think of all the angry SR's that use those fixers, and the other fixers that think they may be next to take preemptive action. Hell, most weapons and ammo can be found directly on the street with an appropriate etiquitte skill at a very low target number.

QUOTE
...and also depends entirely on back-alley surgeons/medics to deal with bio/cyberware...
Illegal implantation and equipment is rarely legal anyway. Most good doctor contacts are legitimate doctors and surgeouns that make a nice tax free bonus income on the side. Also count corps that are extraterritorial and like to work out surgery or ware in lieu of payment, as that costs them significantly less than paying in the equivalent cash.

QUOTE
(makes sure to bribe/intimidate as many street-docz as possible, so that the party can no longer repair/upgrade/install bio/cyberware [even the LEGAL stuff])...
No reason to. Besides you NEVER intimidate a street doc, you develop a mutually beneficial working relationship.

Furthermore a rating 8 fake credstick will beat almost all scans for transactions valued at under 500,000 nuyen reliably. If they wanted badly to go through legitimate channels they could do so that way.

If you want to reply to this please instead start a new thread, as I don't wish to hijack this thread any further. Thanks.

Fixers, etc (any contact that can get you ILLEGAL or RESTRICTED equipment)...

Somewhere down the line, they have to have a LEGITMATE LICENCED contact; otherwise, no go...

(unless yer average mission is knockin' over military weapons shipments, and if that's the case, I'd rather not play in THAT campaign)

"BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! Okay, Joe, Jack, Kelly... All yer characters have been blown away in a single blast each..."

Pointless?! I doubt a determined corporation or gang is gonna think it's point-less; the corp might be extremist like that "Get me their location, or cut off their supply lines... PERIOD!"), whereas an enraged gang would simply tell THEIR fixers (etc) to stop supplying YOU... As to OTHER fixers (etc) of a rival gang, this would be a GREAT opportunity for them to flex some muscle! (multiple gang-related hits)...

What do you mean "directly on the street"? I doubt that pretty highly; Lone-Star, Knights Errant, they're job is to WATCH fer that kind of thing!

Again, back to the determined Corp; if they want you bad enough, they'll make SURE you can't get to a "legitmate" doctor...

So, what, ya make a run to California every time you want yer Reflex 2 checked? (didn't think so...) So that means you've got to have a doc to check it out; again, a DETERMINED force (be it a gang, or ESPECIALLY a Corporation) would simply intimidate, or EXTERMINATE such contacts...

Oh, if you were jus' dealin' with some small-time Shadowrunners, I'm sure that you could AVOID most of them with a more advanced group...

My point is, without a valid SIN in the above equation, YOU CANNOT get yer EQUIPMENT! (don't matter if it's your fixer, or yer fixer's FIXER!)

Get a lot of level 8 credsticks in yer games? Must hit a lot of corporate OWNERS then (I can't see THAT happenin'... Where's a STREET group gonna get the Lvl 8 from?)

P.S.- I started the thread, so please continue (smirk)
The White Dwarf
Dude lay off the caps and question marks. The way it works is you call your Fixer, and the GM makes a check against the Availibility, then you pay Nuyen and get your item. In this case the item was a rating 8 fake ID. Whupee. Your continued dramatized examples of blowing the whole team up are pointless, any GM can just say "you get blowed up good, yup you sure do" its not a solution to anything. Accept the fact that its possible to run the shadows from entierly in the shadows.

All this permit stuff makes me think of James Bond. Are the runners special agents with permits and IDs or criminals in the shadows paying their contacts to look the other way and help them do the corporate dirty work? Answer that question about your game, and youll know whether or not to use a SIN. 'Nuff said.
=-_RaVeN_-=
QUOTE (The White Dwarf)
Dude lay off the caps and question marks. The way it works is you call your Fixer, and the GM makes a check against the Availibility, then you pay Nuyen and get your item. In this case the item was a rating 8 fake ID. Whupee. Your continued dramatized examples of blowing the whole team up are pointless, any GM can just say "you get blowed up good, yup you sure do" its not a solution to anything. Accept the fact that its possible to run the shadows from entierly in the shadows.

All this permit stuff makes me think of James Bond. Are the runners special agents with permits and IDs or criminals in the shadows paying their contacts to look the other way and help them do the corporate dirty work? Answer that question about your game, and youll know whether or not to use a SIN. 'Nuff said.

Great, so when YOUR character get's stopped for "a random check", is holding onto an obviously ILLEGAL piece of equipment, and you get pulled down-town (so to speak), how well is a FAKE SIN gonna hold up?

...or do you jus' NEVER carry illegal equipment?
Raptor1033
sounds like you've got a bit of trouble commanding the volume of your voice there raven. i tend to play characters with SINs, it's just a matter of how often they rely on them. BTW, anyone happen to know if SINs are a world-wide thing? just a north america thing? would someone from the salish-shide have one?
Ward Christensen
This is totaly dependent on one's character concept.

My character's basically been SINless since he can remember (being 15, it's not too far back), but with his skills and financial stability, he is capable of changing the stigma he has lived with his entire life.

Now these SIN's aren't his, per se...

But as long as there's not too thorough a search on him, he can always ditch the number and credstick and take on a new life.

=-_RaVeN_-=
QUOTE (Raptor1033)
sounds like you've got a bit of trouble commanding the volume of your voice there raven. i tend to play characters with SINs, it's just a matter of how often they rely on them. BTW, anyone happen to know if SINs are a world-wide thing? just a north america thing? would someone from the salish-shide have one?

Pardon?

I'm jus' LEARNIN' this game... (I've role-played fer over 12 years+ now; D&D, Cyberpunk, Warhammer, Rogue Trader [a spin on 40k], Champions, Macross, etc.)

...as to this though, I've got all kinds of conflicting idealism 'bout the SIN.

#1: to have a SIN is the BEST way to get busted (they, in combination with a very SERIOUS investigation will get you traced)...

#2: to NOT have a SIN leaves you unable to travel to another country (even on a bus I've read)...

#3: to have a SIN you can thus purchase and/or licence other equipment the SINless have no hope of obtaining/retaining if encountering law-enforcement officials...

#4: to NOT have a SIN you can't get a lot of the basics; can't rent a LEGITIMATE apartment/buy a home/car, etc.

Ya see my dilemma here?

As to the Meta-humans, the only way that I've heard it may be possible is that, yer parents are human, you are born, you get a SIN at birth, you "evolve", you retain yer SIN.

From what I've read, the SIN seems to be a mostly human thing; meta-humans, in just about all countries (the SIN system, or it's equivalent, was adopted shortly after the North-Am sys was) have it... It makes good sense; a multi-nat corp ain't gonna want to have you get away from them jus' by jumpin' on a plane and flyin' away...

...but, I WOULD like some clarification I.E. Elves and SIN please; bein' Elven, it may make my question about gettin' out moot...
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (=-_RaVeN_-=)
From what I've read, the SIN seems to be a mostly human thing; meta-humans, in just about all countries (the SIN system, or it's equivalent, was adopted shortly after the North-Am sys was) have it... It makes good sense; a multi-nat corp ain't gonna want to have you get away from them jus' by jumpin' on a plane and flyin' away...

The way I understand it is that in the UCAS, at least, if you're born in a hospital you get a SIN. Doesn't matter if you're a trog or a daisy eatter, you get one. The reason many orks and trolls are SINless is because they often can't or won't give birth in a hospital (mother is SINless, no cred, fear of the government, etc.). Some countries do not grant SINs to meta-humans at all (Japan sounds like a likely candidate for this) but others grant them to just about anyone sentient (sasquatches, dragons, and even free spirits).

Refence for the above is the Sprawl Survival Guide's SIN section.
The White Dwarf
No, if I get pulled over for some radom inspection I stop the car, roll down the window, and shoot whoever the hell walks up to bother me. Then I drive the heck away and hide in my safehouse. And if theres more guys I shoot them too. Why the heck would I let myself get arrested... all this illegal crap I carry makes me far superior to any street rabble. Thats why the Corps pay me the big bucks to do their dirty work, which keeps me fed at night.

Why is this so hard to understand... and why do you keep being so dramatic. There is no situation that cannot be overcome by a shadowrunner though means other than a SIN, unless the GM is just going out of their way to screw you (and in that case youll get screwed no matter what). Cant cross borders? Bribes. Cant buy guns? Use the black market. Cant walk into the airport? Dont use the airport, grab a train or private flight.

But, like, OMG there IS situations you CANNOT OVERCOME! ..... Prove it
Sphynx
QUOTE (The White Dwarf)
No, if I get pulled over for some radom inspection I stop the car, roll down the window, and shoot whoever the hell walks up to bother me. Then I drive the heck away and hide in my safehouse. And if theres more guys I shoot them too.

No offense intended man, but that has to be the WORST possible solution I've ever heard of.

Sphynx
=-_RaVeN_-=
QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
QUOTE (=-_RaVeN_-= @ Sep 16 2003, 08:07 PM)
From what I've read, the SIN seems to be a mostly human thing; meta-humans, in just about all countries (the SIN system, or it's equivalent, was adopted shortly after the North-Am sys was) have it... It makes good sense; a multi-nat corp ain't gonna want to have you get away from them jus' by jumpin' on a plane and flyin' away...

The way I understand it is that in the UCAS, at least, if you're born in a hospital you get a SIN. Doesn't matter if you're a trog or a daisy eatter, you get one. The reason many orks and trolls are SINless is because they often can't or won't give birth in a hospital (mother is SINless, no cred, fear of the government, etc.). Some countries do not grant SINs to meta-humans at all (Japan sounds like a likely candidate for this) but others grant them to just about anyone sentient (sasquatches, dragons, and even free spirits).

Refence for the above is the Sprawl Survival Guide's SIN section.

Don't have that book available (bows) My thanx...
=-_RaVeN_-=
QUOTE (The White Dwarf)
No, if I get pulled over for some radom inspection I stop the car, roll down the window, and shoot whoever the hell walks up to bother me. Then I drive the heck away and hide in my safehouse. And if theres more guys I shoot them too. Why the heck would I let myself get arrested... all this illegal crap I carry makes me far superior to any street rabble. Thats why the Corps pay me the big bucks to do their dirty work, which keeps me fed at night.

Why is this so hard to understand... and why do you keep being so dramatic. There is no situation that cannot be overcome by a shadowrunner though means other than a SIN, unless the GM is just going out of their way to screw you (and in that case youll get screwed no matter what). Cant cross borders? Bribes. Cant buy guns? Use the black market. Cant walk into the airport? Dont use the airport, grab a train or private flight.

But, like, OMG there IS situations you CANNOT OVERCOME! ..... Prove it

Shootin' yer way out works (if you don't have TWO officers or MORE there)...

Hidin' out works (if it's in the deepest, darkest hole in the Barrens or woods you can find)...

All that illegal crap you carry is detectable by the VERY (street) illegal versions the CORPS have (tell me you don't set off every metal-detector in the universe walkin' into the front door of a corp office without a decker)... The corps (hence the hired COPS) have BETTER stuff than you do (and if they don't in yer campaign, SOMETHING is wrong...)

Bribes work (but not all the time, and if they DON'T, better have a MASSIVELY high Charisma and/or Fast Talk etc skill)...

Black market; sure... I'll jus' wander over to the black market (it's on the corner of Dark and Spooky right? [smirk]) and pick me up some hardware (if it's available, if it's NOT military grade, etc.)...

The train is DEFINITELY out fer the SINless (you MUST have a SIN to get on anything but a subway, so no cross-country trips [if a BUS is out, then a train DEFINITELY is...]), but the private flight sounds good (if you can find a legit pilot willin' to fly you somewhere and put himself at risk)...

All I'm saying that, EVEN TODAY, there are security/police/law-enforcement agencies that work FOR the average citizen, and AGAINST the criminal...

An example?

The British have CAMERAS on street-corners (I watched a program on security measures) that watch EVERYTHING that goes on...

With terrorism the big threat now-adayz, EVERYONE faces pretty serious checks at air-ports, etc. (ask me about my bus-trip to the U.S.; stopped goin' in, stopped comin' out, both times with LOTS of cops and security people)...

The SIN is pretty much yer LIFE (name, credit history, in some cases genetic records, blah blah)...

A fake one (a GOOD fake one) then, that would be a VERY good tool...

But without one, yer as good as meat...

In regards to the equipment ya carry around that makes ya so special, that's the VERY stuff that's gonna make ya stand out! (relative to obvious cyber-ware/bio-ware, hard-ware)...

The other side of the coin is that those that are "ghosts" (born today I mean without any records and have completely fake identifications) are nigh untouchable!

...but they can't work at anything more than an under-the-table job (you'd get bagged fer a fake Social Insurance Number in Canada, believe me), they can't rent/buy property (requires proper identification)...

But thanx fer yer perspective...
The White Dwarf
All Im saying is that there is alternatives to being legal. Btw, so what if there is two cops, or five cops... easy enough to shoot them without dying yourself. Sure they might have better stuff than you, but the random patrol guy doesnt. And theres no random checks at the facility where the big stuff is, the two wont ever come up together. If all your going to do is counter everything I say with some other example its a pointless discussion. Yea you pretty much do just wander over to the black market and pick something up. You might place a few calls to your contacts, and check the Crime Mall (in the seattle sourcebook), possibly the Ork Underground... theres a truckload of options besides a store.

That example is easily defeated. One sustained invis spell, ruethenium polymers, a decker, a bribe to the cop contact in charge of watching the camers, jamming or disabling the camera first... the list goes on. Airport is likewise a no brainer. Duh you dont walk into an airport with anything illegeal, it even says runners think as much in New Seattle.

If youre so worried about getting caught that youre convinced simply being legal is the only solution I think you need to get more creative in the way you go about circumventing obstacles. Buying gear can be handled through contacts (arms dealer, deckmeister, fixer etc) all of which handle the legal end and get it to you with a markup (read: street index, cause like thats why its there). Simply moving around is easy enough as long as you dont look illegal, regardless of what warez youre sporting. What are all these insurmountable problems you keep bringing up? The mafia guy selling me the gun under a table at a seedy bar isnt going to check my credit history when Im paying certified cred up front...
Raptor1033
shooting the cops just for getting pulled over is the worst possible thing i think a runner could do at that point. their car has a security camera, probably far better than the ones we've got now. so they've got your car's make, model, license number, and broadcasting frequency plus they have your face from the video (how could you not turn around and shoot all those cops). the only real options after something like that are massive plastic surgeries, dumping the weapons you used in the killings, dumping your vehicle or changing everything about it, and if you're magical; changing your aura. all because you couldn't sweet-talk your way out of a traffic ticket. hiding really isn't an option for an investigation worth it's salt. anyone watching the evening news who's seen you would call in the tip line with info, it's just a matter of time before they're questioning your neighbor then busting down your door with 3 swat teams and helicopters watching outside.
John Campbell
I personally tend to think that shooting cops, period, is the worst possible thing a runner can do. When you fight cops, there are two possible outcomes: either you lose, in which case you're dead, or you win.... in which case, you're dead. The prize for defeating cops is that you get to fight more, better armed cops... and they have far more resources - investigative and raw firepower - than you can possibly match. Killing cops gives them all the motivation they could want to smash you with those resources, because when you do that, it's not just a job anymore. It's not even just vengeance. It's self-defense.
Reth
As far as cops go, i go with stun ammo and spells every time. That way you get away without hundreds of PO'ed cops out to get the copkillers, since they are unharmd basically. I actually try to do much the same with megacorp sec., pays in the long run.

For SIN's, i have one, i actually have several ( dual citizenship plus some fake ones ), wouldn't want to be without one and you can easily disappear even if you have a SIN, just stop using it, at least for awhile. Sure you can do things if you don't have a SIN, but in my experience you it costs you a bundle in bribes, street index...etc. This is why that every SINless runner in my game have purchased fake SIN's of at least rating 5-6, but often higher than that.
Stormdrake
My character is a Tir-Na-Nog National living in Seattle. So he has a SIN but like so many others he operates in the shadows with a diffrent name and look. How difficult is it to erase ones SIN information if they want to become SINLESS?
Reth
As far as i recall they call that zeroing and it is much more difficult, than fx. getting your SIN flagged as deceased.
TinkerGnome
Hell, Fastjack called it hard to do, so it must be quite difficult. (SSG)
Rev
I think it is very unrealistic for a shadowrunner to use the same identity (real or fake) for very long at all.

Sphynx, in the universe you are playing in the cops are so good that they will immediately notice anything but a real id with real permits, but so incompetent that they never managed to link one illegal activity to any member of the group who uses thier real sin despite these individuals exposing thier ID to added scrutiny and needing a clean record (or the same corruption needed to fake an ID) to apply for various permits? Also most of the charachters leapt from upstanding sin posessing citizen to expert shadowrunner who never leaves a skin flake or fingerprint behind without ever making a significant mistake? I don't have the book with me but a sizable fraction of regular people in shadowrun sprawls don't have sin's even though they aren't hardened criminals.

Far more realistic is somone whos real sin (if any) is part of a list kept by the police of past aliases wanted for various crimes and investigations which are then partially messed up by deckers while creating another fake. A police force that can be corrupted, that hardly tries to protect half the city, and that deals with huge numbers of sinless dregs every day. A world where the professional criminal has to avoid, bribe, intimidate, and occasionally fight to stay out of 'the system' but a world so corrupt that these are all commonplace.
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