We kept 14 of 17 negative effects and 7 of 20 positive effects. Mostly any thing that was "animalish", I guess "furry", was gone. Stuff that was "awakening" or "partial awakening" was kept.
For example:
Horns- Kept.
Tail- Gone.
We made one change. Feline Eyes was changed to simply Low Light Vision.
Many of the SURGE stuff we got rid of we turned into bioware. I know it seems like we just let it back in another way, but we didn't object to players wantning prehensile tails as much as that they could get them by magic. It made sense to us that if bioware or genetech could do what was stated in the books, then someone would want tails and stuff and there would be enough of a market to do it. Sort of like the cosmetic bioware section.
Our problem was that a lot of the SURGE stuf didn't seem to have anything to do with a spike in magic. Why would that activate a dormant mundane gene complex? We could see it activating dormant meta-gene complexes, but retractable claws, even if the code for them is buried somewhere in our DNA, are completely mundane.
Anyway, we've only had one or two characters who rolled successfully for SURGE anyway.
Full Version: Surge in SR4
yeah. honestly, i'm a lot more comfortable with the idea of someone going under the laser and coming out a catgirl because they wanted to be one. cosmetic surgery is cyberpunk; a magical comet that leaves BESM rejects in its wake is not.
not that there's anything wrong with BESM. but that chocolate doesn't go in this peanut butter. they're the two great tastes that make hulk crush puny sourcebook.
not that there's anything wrong with BESM. but that chocolate doesn't go in this peanut butter. they're the two great tastes that make hulk crush puny sourcebook.
| QUOTE (Pthgar) |
| Our problem was that a lot of the SURGE stuf didn't seem to have anything to do with a spike in magic. Why would that activate a dormant mundane gene complex? We could see it activating dormant meta-gene complexes, but retractable claws, even if the code for them is buried somewhere in our DNA, are completely mundane. |
What? How does this make sense? Aren't ork tusks and troll horns and elf ears purely mundane, too? Why should they be activiated by the rise in the magic level?
The rise in magic level also means a thining of the barrier between what is mudane and what is awakened. Think of the mana swell as a catalyst for evolutionary leaps to other previously closed paths. What nature once found useless for survival has been given another chance to thrive.
Ork tusks, Elf ears, Troll horns, Dwarf stature are all coded within the meta-gene. They are not mundane. They are activated by the rise in magic levels. I don't understand your question. The existance of meta-races is due to the Awakening that happened with the rise in Mana levels early in the 21st century. They are manifestly magical expressions, not mundane.
| QUOTE (Nikoli @ May 17 2005, 04:09 PM) |
| The rise in magic level also means a thining of the barrier between what is mudane and what is awakened. Think of the mana swell as a catalyst for evolutionary leaps to other previously closed paths. What nature once found useless for survival has been given another chance to thrive. |
That is an excellent rationalization if you want to let all of the SURGE effects in the game. I know all about rationalizations, I am a Marvel Zombie and Trekkie.
We just didn't want to allow that in our SR game so we made our own rationalization to keep it out. I'm not even going to try and claim that all the SURGE effects are "wrong", just that we didn't like them.
That's cool, that's your game. Just remember what makes up your game is not necessarily what makes up someone else's game. Like it or not SURGE was published as is, and there are people that like it, and want to see it further developed as a Meta plot. That should be addressed (though preferably in an expansion book and not in the main book) to maintain fluidity from SR-3 to SR-4.
Want it to have a gritier feel, rather than make the Car-girls as iconic BESM porn stars and poster children of the SURGE Rights Activists, make them victems of viscous bunraku parlor thugs, rescued only to be further used and humiliated as media martyrs in the various political struggles between the SURGEd and the "Normals".
Want it to have a gritier feel, rather than make the Car-girls as iconic BESM porn stars and poster children of the SURGE Rights Activists, make them victems of viscous bunraku parlor thugs, rescued only to be further used and humiliated as media martyrs in the various political struggles between the SURGEd and the "Normals".
| QUOTE (Pthgar) |
| Ork tusks, Elf ears, Troll horns, Dwarf stature are all coded within the meta-gene. They are not mundane. They are activated by the rise in magic levels. I don't understand your question. The existance of meta-races is due to the Awakening that happened with the rise in Mana levels early in the 21st century. They are manifestly magical expressions, not mundane. |
What I'm saying is, why can you say the various racial traits are magical expressions but SURGE isn't? How the heck is suddenly manifesting claws or a tail or a single eye due to a sudden rise in the magic level "mundane?"
i kinda recall a text talking about dna having a extra dimention to it with the right levels of mana. something about trolls having some kind of chemical intolerance or something. so one could kinda predict who would turn into a troll when the mana level increased by looking for signs of this problem if one had known then what they knew now. basicly that "junk" dna under the right level of mana can have an effect with the right mana level. be it as simple as a tail or as complex as allowing astral perception.
i think it was in sota63's dna section...
i think it was in sota63's dna section...
It was SOTA63.
heh, i checked after typing it up. basicly sota63 explained/defended the existence of surge. go read it and all will be clear 
DNA already has plenty of dimensions--it is read as a one-dimensional code, but exists as a three-dimensional polymer. Adding even more dimensions is unnecessary from any functional standpoint, and isn't detectable because--amazingly enough!--we exist in three dimensions.
Since this idea was around well before Elanor Holmes wrote the SotA:63 section, I won't blame her for that. She at least appears to have had some background in genetics (although slightly out of date--it was known that humans have ~30k genes a year or so before the article was written).
The whole let's-make-metatraits-spooky-and-mystical thing seems pointless to me, though. In a fantasy-based game, sure, maybe spooky is the way to go. In a futuristic game, where technology is based on the fact that things actually occur in a given way for a reason, and do so reliably, it seems oddly out of place.
It seems out of place for two reasons. For one, it seems to encourage two incompatible realities--a magical/fantastic one and a scientific one. Unfortunately, for events to occur, you kind of need your realities to be compatible or pretty soon they won't have any relationship to each other any more. For another, since the setting is supposed to be a futuristic version of present-day, it suggests a misunderstanding of the nature of current scientific theories--the same problem that incorrectly classifies Hermetic mages as scientific.
Fortunately, Holmes provides an alternative method of handling magical traits that, for other reasons, are better kept incompletely known. And this alternate method sounds like something that real scientists would actually do:
Since this idea was around well before Elanor Holmes wrote the SotA:63 section, I won't blame her for that. She at least appears to have had some background in genetics (although slightly out of date--it was known that humans have ~30k genes a year or so before the article was written).
The whole let's-make-metatraits-spooky-and-mystical thing seems pointless to me, though. In a fantasy-based game, sure, maybe spooky is the way to go. In a futuristic game, where technology is based on the fact that things actually occur in a given way for a reason, and do so reliably, it seems oddly out of place.
It seems out of place for two reasons. For one, it seems to encourage two incompatible realities--a magical/fantastic one and a scientific one. Unfortunately, for events to occur, you kind of need your realities to be compatible or pretty soon they won't have any relationship to each other any more. For another, since the setting is supposed to be a futuristic version of present-day, it suggests a misunderstanding of the nature of current scientific theories--the same problem that incorrectly classifies Hermetic mages as scientific.
Fortunately, Holmes provides an alternative method of handling magical traits that, for other reasons, are better kept incompletely known. And this alternate method sounds like something that real scientists would actually do:
| QUOTE |
| The most popular current theory...states that the ability to wield magic is genetically defined just as any other creative gift or unquantifiable ability; it is conferred by a set of interacting traits spread across the entire genome. |
That is, it probably works sorta like everything else works, but it's complicated, and so we can't figure it out.
Lots of problems are like that in science: there is no reason to believe that you'd require anything mystical or spooky to solve the problem, but nonetheless because it is hard to do experiments and understand the results, and because biology is complicated, you do not have the answer now, nor will you any time soon.
This is the type of thing I'd like to see more of in SR4, e.g. with regard to SURGE. ("We still don't know exactly where or how most of it came from, but...") Crazy theories are fine, but the majority of researchers should just say they don't know when they don't know. Witness the lack of crazy theories flying about regarding the mechanism of action of cancer. I don't see a whole lot of people postulating a 4th dimension for cancer.
Lots of problems are like that in science: there is no reason to believe that you'd require anything mystical or spooky to solve the problem, but nonetheless because it is hard to do experiments and understand the results, and because biology is complicated, you do not have the answer now, nor will you any time soon.
This is the type of thing I'd like to see more of in SR4, e.g. with regard to SURGE. ("We still don't know exactly where or how most of it came from, but...") Crazy theories are fine, but the majority of researchers should just say they don't know when they don't know. Witness the lack of crazy theories flying about regarding the mechanism of action of cancer. I don't see a whole lot of people postulating a 4th dimension for cancer.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| That's cool, that's your game. Just remember what makes up your game is not necessarily what makes up someone else's game... |
That was kind of the point of my post.
| QUOTE (Garland) |
| What I'm saying is, why can you say the various racial traits are magical expressions but SURGE isn't? How the heck is suddenly manifesting claws or a tail or a single eye due to a sudden rise in the magic level "mundane?" |
Because we (the couple guys who GM in our group) said they seemed mundane. We came up with a standard ("SRish" or" EDish") and applied it to SURGE. It was completely arbitrary in the sense that we just didn't like all that SURGE did. I was not trying to claim that Troll Horns or Prehensile Tail have any difference in legitimacy as far as canon are concerned, only in our house game. Blakkie asked what made our cut and I was elaborating on why certain SURGE traits made it and others didn't. I would never presume to think that our house rules are better than canon SR. They just suit us better.
I am all for keeping SURGE in SR4. I like the concept of everyone's neat magic theoretical apple carts being upset. We just will tweak it to fit our house game a little, knowing that most other players will follow canon.
One thing I always appreciated about SR's developers (all of them) was that they invited the players to make whatever changes they liked. Too many other games developers treat their players as incapable of judging what's best for their game.
Why is a scientific reality incompatible with a fantasy one. One of the threads that weaves threw shadow run is the scientists trying to come to grips with the effects of magic that they can not explain.
The existence of a mama sphere is accepted because every credible magician says its there and they can monitor it. And given that it is there it is accepted that it can trigger genetic traits, such as metatypes and SURGE.
This has always been the opinions of the medical practitioners in eth SR world going as far back as UGE, they always blamed it on genetics and later (when it was discovered) on the mana levels)
Personally I hope surge can create furies in SR4. I still haven’t played timothy karter and he looses a significant amount of motivation without his daughter being a 12 year old bunny girl of which he is over protective.
Edward
The existence of a mama sphere is accepted because every credible magician says its there and they can monitor it. And given that it is there it is accepted that it can trigger genetic traits, such as metatypes and SURGE.
This has always been the opinions of the medical practitioners in eth SR world going as far back as UGE, they always blamed it on genetics and later (when it was discovered) on the mana levels)
Personally I hope surge can create furies in SR4. I still haven’t played timothy karter and he looses a significant amount of motivation without his daughter being a 12 year old bunny girl of which he is over protective.
Edward
The spellcheck function is your friend.
It doesn't need to be incompatible, but it can easily become so if you have certain consistent consequences of magic and different but self-consistent science/technology, and then have both affect the same thing (e.g. human development). If you haven't chosen carefully, it can be a real headache trying to decide how the two coexist. For example, orichalcum can't exist chemically, but ancient artifacts have orichalcum, except nobody noticed before now. That makes things rather tricky to explain. Likewise, if one cannot even tell whether there is a genetic component to magic, it means not that there are no markers that co-segregate with magical ability, but rather than sometimes people find markers and sometimes they don't, for no apparent reason, even after controlling for all variables--and it's kind of tricky to explain how that could happen too, aside from some generic "magic is spooky (and is well-versed in the scientific method and current scientific technology and loves playing tricks on nerdy scientists who think they're so smart)".
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| The spellcheck function is your friend. |
It's that darn "mama sphere" that's too blame, not him!
The spell checker is not my friend, it doesn’t pick up when I use the wrong word (you wouldn’t want to read this before I use the spell checker in word)
There are key parts of say globalisation that break the fundamental laws of science. Take for example a human that gobinises into a troll, the proses takes at most a few days and his mass increases by at least a factor of 4. this is in clear contradiction of the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of matter and energy.
If you cant accept that science cant explain magic then don’t play SR, most of the scientists are shaking there heads as every year they have to throw away there cherished laws.
Edward
There are key parts of say globalisation that break the fundamental laws of science. Take for example a human that gobinises into a troll, the proses takes at most a few days and his mass increases by at least a factor of 4. this is in clear contradiction of the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of matter and energy.
If you cant accept that science cant explain magic then don’t play SR, most of the scientists are shaking there heads as every year they have to throw away there cherished laws.
Edward
| QUOTE |
| If you cant accept that science cant explain magic then don’t play SR, most of the scientists are shaking there heads as every year they have to throw away there cherished laws. |
But science is just a very effective method for finding out the reasons why things happen.
Are you saying that when magic is involved, things happen for no reason whatsoever?
And anyway, why bother deciding that science doesn't work in a sci-fi setting unless there's some benefit to the story? We already know how genetics works pretty well. Why throw that out, and then try to invent something that doesn't make sense? Isn't it a lot easier to use the existing knowledge about genetics as a rich source of background material and then focus on something fun rather than nonsense explanations of non-genetics?
Are you saying that when magic is involved, things happen for no reason whatsoever?
And anyway, why bother deciding that science doesn't work in a sci-fi setting unless there's some benefit to the story? We already know how genetics works pretty well. Why throw that out, and then try to invent something that doesn't make sense? Isn't it a lot easier to use the existing knowledge about genetics as a rich source of background material and then focus on something fun rather than nonsense explanations of non-genetics?
My vote is that they get rid of Surge and pretend it never happened. It was a bad idea when it came out, and an even worse idea now.
| QUOTE (Pthgar) |
| It was completely arbitrary in the sense that we just didn't like all that SURGE did. |
Ah, I see. The justification you originally gave didn't jive, really, but if you know it's arbitrary...
I'm kind of neutral on the whole issue. SURGE fits with the way the world "works" but I'm always wary of new/strange player options.
| QUOTE (Ellery @ May 18 2005, 08:51 AM) | ||
But science is just a very effective method for finding out the reasons why things happen. Are you saying that when magic is involved, things happen for no reason whatsoever? |
He used the word "science" when he should have used something more like "currently accepted theoretical physics". Current theory is very likely incomplete in ways we cannot fathom, just as Newtonian theory was incomplete in a way they could not fathom. The Newtonian model worked fine for the environment they found themselves in. It was an approximation that didn't take into account how gravity could influence time and space, but Newton lived in a world where the difference between the approximation and Relativity/Quantum was insignificant.
Likewise when the magic cycle increased the approximation of the current theories would nolonger become insignificant.
EDIT: Also given it's sudden onset there would be a lot of head scratching and wonder WTF is happening and why. Certainly it would be hard for us to relate to removed even moreso. There might be a reason for something happening, but if you don't know the reason our language is often shortcutted to "it happened for no reason".
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||||
He used the word "science" when he should have used something more like "currently accepted theoretical physics". Current theory is very likely incomplete in ways we cannot fathom, just as Newtonian theory was incomplete in a way they could not fathom. The Newtonian model worked fine for the environment they found themselves in. It was an approximation that didn't take into account how gravity could influence time and space, but Newton lived in a world where the difference between the approximation and Relativity/Quantum was insignificant. Likewise when the magic cycle increased the approximation of the current theories would nolonger become insignificant. EDIT: Also given it's sudden onset there would be a lot of head scratching and wonder WTF is happening and why. Certainly it would be hard for us to relate to removed even moreso. There might be a reason for something happening, but if you don't know the reason our language is often shortcutted to "it happened for no reason". |
Nice description, I wasn’t shore how I was going to get threw that,
I will only add that I did say merely that those that study science can’t explain thee things. Not that there isn’t an explanation.
Edward
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| He used the word "science" when he should have used something more like "currently accepted theoretical physics". Current theory is very likely incomplete in ways we cannot fathom |
Sure. I already granted this point, and actually encouraged that this be the explanation for things that are not understood, rather than making up some untestable stuff and then saying you can't understand it with science. See cancer example, etc..
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| will only add that I did say merely that those that study science can’t explain thee things. Not that there isn’t an explanation. |
Two primary possibilities occur to me, then. Either someone can explain these things now, but science cannot; or nobody can explain these things now, but eventually they will be explicable (at least in theory if not in practice).
Which are you envisioning?
Which are you envisioning?
In theory these things can be explained in a way that science will understand but not now.
Some people can and do explain them but there proofs do not conform with the scientific method and tend to contradict one another (that is to say there little better than guesses, at least in the eyes of most scientists)Shamans are a key sores of such /explanations/.
Edward
Some people can and do explain them but there proofs do not conform with the scientific method and tend to contradict one another (that is to say there little better than guesses, at least in the eyes of most scientists)Shamans are a key sores of such /explanations/.
Edward
So shamans (and others) guess at things and come up with explanations that apparently aren't the whole truth, since they are mutually contradictory, but sorta work. And scientists haven't figured it out yet.
That works fine for me. In fact, that's what I've been trying to argue for.
My point is that you don't gain anything by messing up existing science in places where it doesn't need to be messed up (such as the nature of DNA). You replace a rich source of background material with ignorance when you do that, for no benefit. Sounds counterproductive to me, unless one is enamored of ignorance.
That works fine for me. In fact, that's what I've been trying to argue for.
My point is that you don't gain anything by messing up existing science in places where it doesn't need to be messed up (such as the nature of DNA). You replace a rich source of background material with ignorance when you do that, for no benefit. Sounds counterproductive to me, unless one is enamored of ignorance.
I realize this comes a little late, my computer is broken, but I´d just like to answer this:
| QUOTE |
| mintcar...It was stupid. It was so very stupid. Why? Because it's a very, very cheap ripoff of a Playboy or Hustler interview...And the Playboy interviews have long since left their glory days. |
Yes interviews like that are stupid. Off course they are, they´re dead stupid. But the cat girl article was NOT a "cheap ripoff" of such an interview, it was a fictional rendition of such an interview. Is a text featuring intentionally stupid characters or dialoges automaticly stupid in itself? *sigh* I digress (I cant follow the debate without computer anyway)
not only was it stupid, it was counterproductive. SURGE was supposed to heighten metaracial tensions, which is hard to accomplish if it's made out to be glamorous and desirable.
"SURGE is bad, SURGE is bad, SURGE lifted me from a life of mediocrity and made me famous and attractive. truly have i been cursed."
"SURGE is bad, SURGE is bad, SURGE lifted me from a life of mediocrity and made me famous and attractive. truly have i been cursed."
It also took away from the arguments developers were making at the time, when they were insisting Shadowrun wasn't getting more cartoony. "SURGE doesn't turn the game into anime. It really doesn't! We promi--and now a word from our official SURGE spokespussy, the catgirl porn star!"
highten metaracial tensions? sounds to me like they managed to do that mfb
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| It also took away from the arguments developers were making at the time, when they were insisting Shadowrun wasn't getting more cartoony. "SURGE doesn't turn the game into anime. It really doesn't! We promi--and now a word from our official SURGE spokespussy, the catgirl porn star!" |
Exactly.
I came to SR looking for something w/ a degree of realism, not anime.
hey, even cyberpunk 2020 had "furre"...
and if you dont like it, dont use it...
and if you dont like it, dont use it...
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| hey, even cyberpunk 2020 had "furre"... and if you dont like it, dont use it... |
Yes, but it had insane people that chose to be furries through extensive and humanity-leeching cybernetic implantation, that included claws, fangs, cyberoptics, dermal modifications, and extensive and horrific cosmetic surgery. Perhaps even moreso than full body 'borgs, these people just wanted to be freakishly different, make a statement with their bodies and their augmentations, and shuck off the husk of normal society in exchange for joining a shocking subculture. The biosculpt options presented in that particular Chromebook were out there, representing the cutting edge of gutter fashion in the "style over substance" flavor of the game.
SURGE just makes you into a furry. Like it or not. Want it or not. Use it properly to set the tone of the game or not. Suddenly, you're just a catgirl porn star. Ta-da. Just like in an anime.
then im guessing that you have more of a problem with the onesided view the west gets of anime then anything else. a cat-girl in a anime is like donald duck in a disney cartoon, nothing more nothing less.
and why is everyone freaking about something going anime? anime can be just as gritty as a gibson sprawls novel. its how you present the cat-girl thats the issue, not the cat-girl itself. and while i havnt seen the text it seems that people here are freaking over it being a cat girl more then anything else...
and why is everyone freaking about something going anime? anime can be just as gritty as a gibson sprawls novel. its how you present the cat-girl thats the issue, not the cat-girl itself. and while i havnt seen the text it seems that people here are freaking over it being a cat girl more then anything else...
Maybe you'd better read the article before assuming too much about the presentation.
maybe, but i still dont get this irrasional fear of anime...
Distaste for that flavor of anime. Not fear of anime itself, but rather fear of that specific brand of anime infecting my favorite RPG.
It's a catgirl porn star, being all giggly and cutesy and coy during an interview. If someone asked me where to find that, I'd like to point them to a loser con somewhere in freak-ass Japan, not flip open a Shadowrun book.
Read the article. Don't preach open-mindedness to us until you see how it's presented.
It's a catgirl porn star, being all giggly and cutesy and coy during an interview. If someone asked me where to find that, I'd like to point them to a loser con somewhere in freak-ass Japan, not flip open a Shadowrun book.
Read the article. Don't preach open-mindedness to us until you see how it's presented.
I think you're assuming a fear of generic anime without realizing which specific anime the catgirl scene evokes.
one single flavor text and people go all ants in pants, go fig...
| QUOTE (Ellery) |
| Maybe you'd better read the article before assuming too much about the presentation. |
What? That's crazy talk!
well, when the flavor text is what's used to introduce a new concept into the game, especially a concept that's supposed to have a strong impact on the game universe, i think going apeshit about bad flavor text is perfectly justifiable.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| one single flavor text and people go all ants in pants, go fig... |
You're right. As long as something only happens once, we can ignore it.
Like that "Dunkelwhatever" guy dying, or something. Just one single flavor text. No need to go ants in the pants about it.
nope there isnt, this is a rpg game after all. in your game the dragon may not even have tryed to be president...
and whats so bad about these cat girls anyways?
and whats so bad about these cat girls anyways?
oh, right, the old "if you don't like it, houserule it" argument against stupidity. i don't like houserules. if i have to extensively houserule the setting--the setting, which is the main reason i play SR--then it's not worth playing, and it's not worth buying.
as for catgirls, if you don't understand, explanations won't enlighten you.
as for catgirls, if you don't understand, explanations won't enlighten you.
maybe im not catgirl fobic thats all 
i think the main problem may be that they left the cat girl story as the only story covering the in character view of the surge effect. this leaving it with a polarised image. now put in some shadowtalk about how its not all glits going for being regular joe to having a lizard tail or something and it becomes more balanced
i think the main problem may be that they left the cat girl story as the only story covering the in character view of the surge effect. this leaving it with a polarised image. now put in some shadowtalk about how its not all glits going for being regular joe to having a lizard tail or something and it becomes more balanced
it shouldn't be glamorized at all. and it especially shouldn't be glamorized with an image as iconic and stereotyped as a goddamn catgirl.
stereotypes is something everyone understands. and if everything is supposed to be doom and gloom i may well turn on the tv and tune to some preaching channel...
ok, i have now been able to read said text and im even more confused. its clearly aimed at being comedy. if you want the dark side you have humanis earlyer in the chapter.
basicly im even more confused as to what people are ranting and raveing about...
basicly im even more confused as to what people are ranting and raveing about...
*shrug* like i said, no point trying to explain it. it wasn't all that funny to me, nor to a lot of other people. if you're fine with catgirls in your SR, great. you're one of the few.
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