AND the its UNBALANCED argument is dumb..first nothing but a house rule lets a player be a vampire, I would NEVER let one of mine play one. AND if MY players are stupid enough to try and fight the cybered up vampire NPC I just made (because of this stupid thread) they deserve to get their asses handed to them.
Second shapeshifter have enough to worry about, having to split their physical attributes between both forms (thank god their mental stay the same) plus lack of skills and starting funds. And again since its an optional rule.. I wouldn't let my players be a shapeshifter (none have ever asked) but I think they are lame as pcs. I do however have 2 ghouls in my party of 8. 1 at creation the other infected. And I do allow them to get cultured bioware.
Full Version: The Infected
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) | ||
Bzzt. Wrong again. Much like silver and werewolves, vampires regenerate all forms of attack just fine. The only difference is some attacks (such as silver for shapeshifters, and fire and explosions for others) have an increased chance of failure IF it hits Deadly damage. Sunlight produces no such increase, however, and their allergy is just a mild nuissance as they instantly regenerate the Light Wound caused by its exposure (for those with a severe allergy, which standard vampires don't have). A Laser/Nova spell would only cause a +2 bonus to its Power if used against vampires, and might make them sneeze a couple of times or retreat if you're lucky. |
Ok then they still need a magician pesent to keep the wound open... big deal 500
per day (man and machine pg 151)... really only needed for the length of the surgery.... still can be done using shadow run 3rd edition rules.
Actually you only have a rumor and an example from a novel as "proof" that it can be done. The rumor is precisely that -- a rumor -- and novels aren't exactly known for adhering to the rules (case in point being the novel featuring a goblinized dwarf) so using one as proof that it "can be done using shadowrun 3rd edition rules" is just way off base.
The intent of the rules are pretty clear: regeneration prevents the installation of cyberware (with the clear context that it includes bioware which, as a side note, wasn't introduced into the game at the time of SRComp's printing). You might want to house rule it in your games, but the standard rules prevent it as a viable option.
The intent of the rules are pretty clear: regeneration prevents the installation of cyberware (with the clear context that it includes bioware which, as a side note, wasn't introduced into the game at the time of SRComp's printing). You might want to house rule it in your games, but the standard rules prevent it as a viable option.
Since the whole "vampires as PCs" thing is houseruled anyways, I, as a GM, declare that all PC vampires must dance on a llama if they choose to view the movie Harvey. I personally think that we should leave cyberware, bioware, and llama-based restrictions up to our respective GM.
Okay, dumb question here. What is a Drop Bear? I've never heard of them.
Drop Bears: Terrors of the Australian Bush.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Jun 5 2005, 07:26 PM) |
| Actually you only have a rumor and an example from a novel as "proof" that it can be done. The rumor is precisely that -- a rumor -- and novels aren't exactly known for adhering to the rules (case in point being the novel featuring a goblinized dwarf) so using one as proof that it "can be done using shadowrun 3rd edition rules" is just way off base. The intent of the rules are pretty clear: regeneration prevents the installation of cyberware (with the clear context that it includes bioware which, as a side note, wasn't introduced into the game at the time of SRComp's printing). You might want to house rule it in your games, but the standard rules prevent it as a viable option. |
Bio ware was intruduced in second ed. and is adressed in the 3rd ed. shadowrun companion.. So I have Rules from a book (saying that you can put cyber in shapeshifters..though its normaly harmful and used as a punishment) Thus you could put cyber in a vampire if you were only argueing regeneration. Novels..though not rules at least there apears to be evidance allowing cyberware to vampires in a non harmful way.
Saying they can't is supported by nothing PERIOD. In fact your throwing out the novels (no real argument in that) BUT the rules say corps have put cyber in shapeshifters. SO THERE FACT IN POINT CREATURES WITH REGEN CAN HAVE CYBER.
And no the intent of the rules for regeneration is not to prevent instillation of cyberware. I believe the intent of th rules is well ..to allow things to regenerate.
Hopefully they will adress the rules more carefully in 4th edition ... though I will not buy it.
Finaly thanks for the arguments but I grow weary. Dr. Funkenstein your the only one who even changed my mind in the slightest and brought up some valid points.
| QUOTE (SR Companion 3ED @ P37 Silver Alergy/Vulnerability: Paragraph 2) |
| Shapeshifters only suffer effects from wounds caused by silver until the begining of the next Combat Turn, as with other damage (see Regeneration p. 36). However, if a shapeshifter takes Deadly damage from a silver weapon or accumulates Deadly damage from a combination of silver and non-silver weapons, roll 1d6; on a result of 1 or 2 the character fails to regenerate and dies imediately. |
So, no on the not regenerating silver. And, wtf are you talking about? you keep saying the same things over and over, I cite books, and you make things up, and I am the one who has no valid points? Also, for the record, i am not trying to convince you, i'm trying to figure it out for myself, and you keep citing false sorces.
| QUOTE (Reign Maker @ Jun 5 2005, 09:27 PM) |
| Bio ware was intruduced in second ed. and is adressed in the 3rd ed. shadowrun companion.. |
Let me correct myself. At the time of printing of the Shadowrun Companion, Bioware had not been introduced to the 3rd Edition rules. You can find the occasional mention of it from time to time, but in almost every case it's a result of a clear cut-and-paste from the original copy of the Shadowrun Companion more than an intentional inclusion. (Sadly there was a lot of that at the time.)
| QUOTE |
| Saying they can't is supported by nothing PERIOD. In fact your throwing out the novels (no real argument in that) BUT the rules say corps have put cyber in shapeshifters. SO THERE FACT IN POINT CREATURES WITH REGEN CAN HAVE CYBER. |
That would be the rumor I was referring to in my previous post. Feel free to read that section again -- the rules specifically mention that it's only a rumor.
| QUOTE |
| And no the intent of the rules for regeneration is not to prevent instillation of cyberware. |
That's not what I said. I said the intent of that restriction, as a means of keeping regeneration "balanced," is to prevent the installation of implants. In exchange for being able to shrug off just about every type of damage that can be inflicted, shapeshifters have to give up the benefits of implants. That's the clear intention of that rule.
Look, I've had a few character concepts in the past that included the possibility of cyberware in regenerating creatures, too. But instead of trying to browbeat a GM into allowing it, I sat down and talked with them about how to houserule it and how to compensate for the loss of that intended hindrance with another one of equal value instead. At no point was I trying to fool myself or the GM into believing the rules were trying to say anything than what they clearly were. House rule to your heart's content, but you should try to avoid attempting to tell people your preferred house rulings are the actual rulings when possible. Especially in a case like this where the context of the rule is really, really clear.
| QUOTE |
| Hopefully they will adress the rules more carefully in 4th edition ... though I will not buy it. |
Keep telling yourself that.
Dang. Are you guys gonna be OK? It's VAMPIRES IN A ROLEPLAYING GAME, not mumblty-peg in a sewer. No one's getting septic based on the outcome, that's all I'm saying.
I'd say it's really lame to stick a bunch of ware into a shifter OR a vampire for no reason other then player power. As a one-time villian, or something, then yeah. It's also important to note, though, that the cybervamps in the novels didn't have to do things like pay rent or fly coach. I'd say generally you can't put cyber into a vamp, but of course, with magic and science in their brutal braid, anything is at least remotely possible in SR (except teleportation) - but still, cramming cyber into such a unique and . . . needy. . . physique should be a trial roughly on par with cybermancy, reserved for truly special circumstances.
I think that just for the sake of logic, some sort of resolution between the regen and the ware would have to be reached - maybe implanting ware could involve (voluntarily?) sabatoging the regen in some way. . .
I don't think even the system for ghoul infection needs to be used - you just charge players some karma for surviving the infection. I mean, they aren't gaining anything really from the change they couldn't get from cyberware, and there are secondary negatives . . . I think the karmic cost to play a ghoul is actually a little high, esp. if you use the infection rules that can 'ruin' a character for many roles. I'd say I'd allow a PC to play a vampire for roughly 15-30 karma/points, depending on the exact strain of vampire and the tone of the campaign, and the settiing of the infection. I might charge more if the character was already a mage and wanted to use the vampirism to min-max their physical abilities, but I'm a jerk like that.
I'd say it's really lame to stick a bunch of ware into a shifter OR a vampire for no reason other then player power. As a one-time villian, or something, then yeah. It's also important to note, though, that the cybervamps in the novels didn't have to do things like pay rent or fly coach. I'd say generally you can't put cyber into a vamp, but of course, with magic and science in their brutal braid, anything is at least remotely possible in SR (except teleportation) - but still, cramming cyber into such a unique and . . . needy. . . physique should be a trial roughly on par with cybermancy, reserved for truly special circumstances.
I think that just for the sake of logic, some sort of resolution between the regen and the ware would have to be reached - maybe implanting ware could involve (voluntarily?) sabatoging the regen in some way. . .
I don't think even the system for ghoul infection needs to be used - you just charge players some karma for surviving the infection. I mean, they aren't gaining anything really from the change they couldn't get from cyberware, and there are secondary negatives . . . I think the karmic cost to play a ghoul is actually a little high, esp. if you use the infection rules that can 'ruin' a character for many roles. I'd say I'd allow a PC to play a vampire for roughly 15-30 karma/points, depending on the exact strain of vampire and the tone of the campaign, and the settiing of the infection. I might charge more if the character was already a mage and wanted to use the vampirism to min-max their physical abilities, but I'm a jerk like that.
| QUOTE (Chibu) | ||
So, no on the not regenerating silver. And, wtf are you talking about? you keep saying the same things over and over, I cite books, and you make things up, and I am the one who has no valid points? Also, for the record, i am not trying to convince you, i'm trying to figure it out for myself, and you keep citing false sorces. |
I conceded the point to Dr. Funkenstein but good job on re winning an argument I gave up on like 4 posts ago....
And the book 3rd edition thanks for finaly using it... says this Shadowrun Companion Page 37 First paragraph of CYBERWARE REJECTION
| QUOTE |
| Shapeshifters cannot WILLINGLY accept any type of cyberware implants. Their regenerative powers make the surgery NEXT to impossiable; even WHEN IT HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL, the cyberware is USUALLY purged from the body in a particularly messy-and painful- fasion soon after. |
SO IT HAS BEEN DONE.... and it usually NOT ALWAYS GETS REJECTED. So yes a regenerating creature can have cyberware..... THATS IT. THATS THE END.
Stop trying to use logic that is not there.
| QUOTE |
| the cyberware is USUALLY purged from the body in a particularly messy-and painful- fasion soon after. |
This can just as easily be read as sometimes it is long and agonizing instead of short and agonizing. Also, it could mean that it is not painful, or messy. This in no way dirrectly states that it will not reject it.
Also, in the 2nd edition companion, as well as all other rescources I've read besides the 3rd edition companion, say it is always rejected.
| QUOTE |
| (from spasticteapot) Since the whole "vampires as PCs" thing is houseruled anyways, I, as a GM, declare that all PC vampires must dance on a llama if they choose to view the movie Harvey. |
LMAO! I like that idea, hmmm, geasa.
Um, Johnnycache,
| QUOTE |
| least remotely possible in SR (except teleportation) |
I agree with most of your post, but there is someone in our group that always said that and I feel that I have to say this. Harlequin and any other high level lightbearer can teleport. Okay, so they shift their physical body into the astral, then travil into the astral, then shift back, but still.
And Reign Maker, again I'm going to ask this question:
Why was there never anyone posting on shadowland in any sourcebook talking about a cybered vampire? Even if it was untrue, with all the other "that shouldn't be possible" drek that shows up on shadowland in the books, I'm guessing it would have come up one or two times. Like when the psyco vamp hunter guy that's a vampire was ranting about the Ordo maximus. Why wouldn't they do it? If it was possible, they would likely be able to do it. They can do cybermancy, and it would likely have come up in their entry in threats.
just saying.....
There HAS been a cybered vampire, with in game stats, printed in an adventure module, not a novel. As has been mentioned earlier.
What adventure?
| QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jun 4 2005, 04:03 PM) | ||
No, you can't. That's a misconception that just won't die. There is no game function for that. There was a canon adventure long ago which had an NPC named "Nemesis" that was a vamp that was cybered out the wazoo. It stated the cyber still worked because it was implanted before he was infected. According to SR3 since this has not been contradicted by any rulebook since then, that ruling still stands for vampires. EDIT: and OMG, screw Nemesis. |
here ya' go! Don't have the name, but it's a reminder at least!
(God, can't believe you guys are still at it! have fun!)
| QUOTE (Mortax) |
| What adventure? |
I wanna say DNA/DOA But that doens't sound right. I'm not at home right now to look.
I just checked DNA/DOA, and no vampires. There is a virus, but it has no relation to HMHVV. Also, checked all of my books while I was home for a few days, no internet connection = board. I think I have all the adventure books, and I couldn't find any that delt with cyber vampires. I could be wrong though, so if you remember which book post, as I may not have it. I think I have them all, but I might be mistaken.
And not to beat a dead horse, morso than has already be done, I will restate a previouse point that no one has yet really answered.
Take a guy from a gym who is a down on his luck body builder. Not hard to find.
S: 5
B: 5
Q: 5
I: 4
C: 3
W: 5 (if you don't buy this one, look at what they do pre contest, or just their workouts.)
Give him a smartlink, enhanced articulation, wired 2, muscle aug, and reaction enhances. Then and in a cyberskull and cortex bomb. Use enough alpha ,beta and delta grade ware that he has an essence of 2 or so. Then pay a vampire to drain him. This is prolly the least expensive part, since it is what they do.
You now have an insanly fast and strong being that regens and you can kill off anytime you want. (Cranial Nuke, inside an armored cyberskull = chunky salsa, no brain.)
Hell, skillwires make it even more fun.
I'm going to ask this again. If this is possible, and much cheeper and easier than cyberzombies, why has it never been mentioned on any shadowland post in any sourcebook? Hell, Ares is using animals infested with fragging bug spirits! (Threats 2) You're going to try and tell me that no one would jump at this opertuninty?
And as far as the control issue, they cant take the bomb out. The doctor can not remove it in the 3 seconds or so it would take for the wound to regen.
Aside from the one novel, there is nothing in cannon that I have seen to support it. True, I have not read every 3rd edition sourcebook. I have, however, read all of 1st and 2nd edition. I may not remember everything, but I would remember the possibility of a cybered vamp just because that is on the level of cyberzombies in importance. At this point, I'm more or less tired of making the same points, and debating them. Unless someone can tell me a cannon sourcebook or rule book that has a cybered vampire, I'm going to assume trminus was a one shot deal, Ie mutation and chalk it up to the writter not paying attention to the rules.
And not to beat a dead horse, morso than has already be done, I will restate a previouse point that no one has yet really answered.
Take a guy from a gym who is a down on his luck body builder. Not hard to find.
S: 5
B: 5
Q: 5
I: 4
C: 3
W: 5 (if you don't buy this one, look at what they do pre contest, or just their workouts.)
Give him a smartlink, enhanced articulation, wired 2, muscle aug, and reaction enhances. Then and in a cyberskull and cortex bomb. Use enough alpha ,beta and delta grade ware that he has an essence of 2 or so. Then pay a vampire to drain him. This is prolly the least expensive part, since it is what they do.
You now have an insanly fast and strong being that regens and you can kill off anytime you want. (Cranial Nuke, inside an armored cyberskull = chunky salsa, no brain.)
Hell, skillwires make it even more fun.
I'm going to ask this again. If this is possible, and much cheeper and easier than cyberzombies, why has it never been mentioned on any shadowland post in any sourcebook? Hell, Ares is using animals infested with fragging bug spirits! (Threats 2) You're going to try and tell me that no one would jump at this opertuninty?
And as far as the control issue, they cant take the bomb out. The doctor can not remove it in the 3 seconds or so it would take for the wound to regen.
Aside from the one novel, there is nothing in cannon that I have seen to support it. True, I have not read every 3rd edition sourcebook. I have, however, read all of 1st and 2nd edition. I may not remember everything, but I would remember the possibility of a cybered vamp just because that is on the level of cyberzombies in importance. At this point, I'm more or less tired of making the same points, and debating them. Unless someone can tell me a cannon sourcebook or rule book that has a cybered vampire, I'm going to assume trminus was a one shot deal, Ie mutation and chalk it up to the writter not paying attention to the rules.
I don't have the first Threats book, but that's not really far off from some of the stuff the Ordo Maximus is interested in. And if you want a canon reference to that, try Cybertechnology, the little converstation Harlequin has over Christmas (check out Ancient History's site if you don't have the book). They do cybermancy and blood magic, and can acutally use the sactifice metamagic on them selves to bring down drain, since they automatically regenerate the damage, although they'd probably use a weaker vamp flunky because stabbing your self sucks unless you're a masichost).
just a question: is there a downloadable PDF type file in which all these rules can be found for all the new metatypes (including the virus ones.)?
I have never played with or seen a drop bear or vampire NPC not to mention a PC.
I have never played with or seen a drop bear or vampire NPC not to mention a PC.
Drop bears are only in Target:Awakened Lands.
Infected PCs are in the 3rd Ed. Shadowrun Companion IIRC.
Infected PCs are in the 3rd Ed. Shadowrun Companion IIRC.
Just the ghouls. For vamps, try Critters, or Bull's Place (the web site), or just improvise. THere's also been afew write ups on them, general info and such. Ancient History's site has some stuff too.
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