Hence one of the reasons for this post.

I think we just used the rules for becomeing a ghoul. I think the will target was increased. Afterall, they are all ofshoots of the same virus. neh?


Damn Horrers

well, they carry the infection HMHVV 'power', so you could use those rules. But I seem to recall readoing somewehre that they have t odrain you to 0 essence, which makes more sense to me anyways. At least in the classical vampire sense.

sorry, should have clarified something.

I ment we used the rules for whether or not you remain SAIN.

As far as infection, if they drain you, or you do something that would normaly infect you with a blood born pathogen, like HIV.

Ahhh....
Well, I never did find any clear cut rules. The ghoul rules sounds like a good idea. I tried to make it a little harder and made it an essence test of sorts. Roll your (original) essence vs T#6. That way anyone cybered would likely crack. Mostly got the idea from The Terminus Experiment

Hell, we made it so all cyberware was pushed out.
Which wasn't fun for my troll, he was a sammy with over a million. And I'd just gotten that cerebral booster 2......grrr...
Funny thing was most of my stats stayed the same. I rolled well.

I believe it says (somewhere) that the cyber stays. Meaning that tey have to feed a lot more. Example The Terminus Experiment (again): most of the baddies were heavily cybered vamps that were pretty much mindless feeding machines. They could take the cyber, because they had it before they became infected.

If it regens, the cyber is rejected. I'll look, back in a tick.


Edit:
K, shifters can't willingly take cyber, because they loos it as soon as they shift, ie when they regen, and since drakes can shift but don't regen. It just doesn't exist in dragon form. I also am pretty sure I read you lose cyber when you are infected, but don't remember where.

well, I double checked critters, and it doesn't state anything under the regen power or vamps about not taking cyberware. It does specifically state under shifters taht they can't have cyber becasue their body rejects it. Doesn't say this anywhere under the vampire description. On the other hand with the regeneration from the immortal flower, it does state that you take damageif you have cyber because the body tries to heal the damage, but it says you take the damage AFTER the effects of the 'mixture' wears off. Vampires regen doesnt wear off. To me, this means they can get it before they change, but not after. Does anyone have a clarification or anywhere it specifically states one way or the other? If I'm wrong that's fine. I'd just like a clear example of where it says so.

Still a little unclear about the drake/cyber shape change BTW. If a guy has a cyber arm, then shifts, does he get a new arm, and the cyber fall off?

Okay, putting the whole drake question aside, think about this.

Vampires and shifters both have the critter power "regen". This implies that they both regen the same, since it is not stated otherwise.

Shifters lose cyberware the second they regen. It's not because they shapeshift, it's because their body is healing all damage. You lose essence due to ware and bio index, you can also lose essence due to injurry. I would submit that for the purposes of regen, all ware counts as damage to be healed.

As far as the immortal flower thing, I don't think that's as realivent as the shifter. My reason is that in no part of the vampire text does it contradict what regen normally does, IE it has all the same characteristics. The flower on the other hand more or less says critter power with these exceptions.

As to the drake, the way I thought it worked was essentually when you shift, it no longer exists untill you shift back.

Edit:
Just thought of something, check Paranormal Animals of North America, Target: Smuggler Havens for info on loup garou, I think they only get regen at the peak of their cycle, which might give us an answere, I will go in search of my coppies.

also, at : http://archive.dumpshock.com/ArchiveShowAr...cle.php3?ID=469
there are good house rules for pcs as vamps, and it says no cyber. House rules I know, but they make a good case.


Edit #2 okay, so I'm dumb, loup garou don't have regen. Should have remembered that, played a bandersnatch DJ with some ware.

No, if you have 3 essence worth of cyber and get infected, then your new max essence is 6. Max essence for an infected vamp is double their normal essence.

I know, my question was, what if you are unable to feed, and you lose too much essence?

I know, but I'm still trying to make the point.
Oh, and one there death, do they get a regen test? Does it work like getting hit with a focus?

(Yes, I'm being mildly sarcastic. )
I don't think that vampires can have cyber. It makes no sense. See shifter argument. Same rules for regen, nothing saying they are different.

Also on drakes:
Page 185 of Dragons of the 6th world, 1st full paragraph. Darkes can have cyberware. It disapers upon shifting. double essence loss.

No, actually, shifter PCs get special rules explaining how they can't get cyberware. The text does not state that those rules are corrections for the general regeneration power, and the text on the normal regeneration power says nothing about implants. Taken literally, a NPC shifter can have a cybertorso with tracking mounts, but a PC shifter can't .

Also notice that the regeneration power only speaks of death by filling the condition monitor, which is a different sort than that caused by an attribute reaching 0.

I've played a character who got tunred into a Warewolf on his second run. He didn't have any cyberware (luckily, because that would probibly hurt) and wasn't magical. We were looking for some people with experimental-gone-bad bioware that were terrorizing the city. so, some old lady says that "There's a werewolf under the dumpster in tyhe ally~!" So, I go look under the dumpster and shoot the thing (because it kind of looks like what we're chasing) and, so, it attacks me, leaves me with 1 box of overflow, and the i regenerated it. So, i was happy that my character didn't die.

With Herald here. The shifter example is the exception, not the rule . That's why it's included. If it was just like normal regen, and regen kicked out the cyber , no exceptions, they wouldn't bother saying it. Read the regen power in critters, asolutely nothing is stated about cyber. it would be incredibly difficult to cyber anyone with an active regeneration power, if not impossible. Think Wolverine (although I know that's a bit of a limb there)...
Also, regen is a magically ability, where cyber removes the essence. A lot of magic simply won't effect cyber (like spells that alter attributes.. They have to be made specifically for cyber).

I brought up the immortal flower because it's an exception to that normal rule, like most of the magical compounds are. Adding magical ability where there is none. Like the one that gives you critter powers, or astral perception. The reason corps don't use them are #1) very difficult to get a hold of. Most of the compounds are sacred to those that make them , such as the Anasazi. True that ittle is sacred to a corp but it's very difficult to pry information from tribal shamans. #2) Thay have serious drawbacks, that can't be resisted. like the example of the 'flower'. 2d6 damage, that can't be resisted. Anyone would think twice if they could end up at deaths door if they take it with cyber in their system.

As for Nemesis (whom I admittedly know nothing about), I doubt that he's the exception. The two canon examples we've seen so far both show vamps with cyber. In both cases, lots of it. The vamps from TE were 'special' because they'd had tons of it impalnted, which wasn't normally done. but they were an experiment. The experiment there was to remove the weakneses of the vampire (like sunlight vulnerability, which they still had).

BTW , it's been a while, but I believe you're right about losing essence from deadly wounds in SR2

So, on the note of the Regeneration power. Where are you getting the text from? (A page number would be keen) uhm, most likely, you're getting it from the Critters section. and, no, it doesn't mention that the CRITTER's cyberware goes away because it's a critter, and NOT a PC.

I agree that NPC's would have the same issues, I think he was just trying to make a point.

The essence thing I had completley forgotten about, but I still find interesting. Hell, I still use grounding! Bt yeah, the essence thing did change over . I'm STILL finding things I thoght I knew that changed. And of course, when I finally get it all down, SR4 will come out.

Yeah, I'll prolly ignore most of the SR4 rule changes.

And I still use grounding too, makes mages a little more warry about sustaining spells and having too many quickenings and foci.

definitely. I hate it when mages go around with a ton of quickened spells. One or two is fine by me. The ystart throwing up more than that, and they deserve it IMO. I'm still looking forwad to SR4, but we'll see how it goes. May be a subcriber to SR 3.5. We'll see.

Still looking for a flat out rule on vamps w/ cyber. There's no where that I can find that has a clear cut yes/no, although there are plenty of examples from whihc to draw conclusions.

And thanks for the discussion Mortax.

No problem, It's what the boards are for.

I don't think it really states anywhere, so it prolly comes down to the GM.
My points were just that, points. I can make a lot of arguments, and I can back them up. But in the end, it's the gm's call.

My opinion? No. Because of the shifters, and because we've never heard of corps using streetsam vampires. Also, it just doesn't make sense to me. I guess we could e-mail fanpro, I may do that. Now I'm curious.

So, Essence Drain, right?
I'm going to play a vampire, and, he's going to have as much ware as i want to give him. Because he can always get more essence.


Vampire, Tac computer, move-by-wire 4, all the senses of course. oh, and VCR 3 ya know, along eith other things. He's at 15 essence? ok, so, he'll have to eat a fwe people in between, but that's alright,

he's still at 12 essence, regens and moves at the speed of sound. now, let's make him a full mage.

Alright, anyone up for no cyber for vamps on the groungs of what FASA used all the time?


how about Game Balance. how about, because i don't believe that FASA was completely inept. and if you think so, well, you can always play whitewo... i mean, 4th edition.

No go Chibu. Vamps can have up to twice their normal essence. If their normal essence is .1, they don't have far to go, and they'd have to feed pretty regualrly to make sure they don't dip below that .1 and cack off.

Critters pg 10 - essence drain

^-^ no frag.


but, if they don't have any to begin with, then they have 12 and they can get it back by eating people. ^-^

um, wouldn't they always be in blood lust, since their max would be .2, and if they go to 1 they go nuts? Suck.

Also, they would have to feed every 72 to keep it at .1 if you go 6 days without food, you die.

yeah , pretty much , which is why the vamps in TE ( yet again,sorry) pretty much just attacked en masse

TE does get a bit ... well.. silly at points. I keep bringing it up for lack of much else in the way of material that can be referenced really. But the novels are still coonsidered 'canon' (Dragon Heart Trilogy ) for example. Even though a lot of people would refer otherwise, because not all of them are really all that up to snuff. The one with the Iron Hell pirates for example (forget the name).

Dragon Heart Trilogy is one I've quoted, actually.

But yeah, I see your point about no cannon sourcebook. I'm just trying to draw a logical proposition set out of what is in the sourcebooks, but like I said, it the end its the GMs call.

Ok First comparing comparing metahumans infected with a virus to a completely different species is absurd.

By cannon rules the closest thing to compare vampires to would be ghouls, metahumans infected with a variant of the virus. Since ghouls CAN have cyber vampires CAN have cyber. The problem would come with implantation, you would need to have a magical doctor to constantly cast a reverse treat spell to keep the incisions open. And there are rules for paying such doctor. I would rule that Vampires PC's would have the same sensitive systems flaw as pc ghouls. I would give no such flaw to npc vampires, just like npc ghouls do not have that flaw. I would rate the points cost at 40+ metatype for creation.

A side note, its states for ghouls that the body metabolizes bioware during the change. But nothing about post change bioware. I would take this to mean that body automatically cannibalizes bioware, EXCEPT future Cultured bioware, since it would be made with ghoul tissue and the body would not eat itself.

And similarly shape shifter could accept any bioware since its doesn't state anything about its ill effects.

A discussion maybe for a different thread... Slay/Slaughter mechanics....its states it goes by biological species...yet orcs/elfs/dwarfs/trolls/humans and those infected with the HMVV virus are all the same species according to cannon (and they can interbreed which corresponds to MOST scientific definitions of a species) why is there a slay orc and a slay human... Broken mechanic in my mind I house rule slay homo sapien kills them all. Your opinions?

It says species or race. The reason for using races of humanity and species of inhuman is that most Shadowrunners will be faced with a lot more cases where Slay Humankinds will be as good as a deadly powerbolt with easier drain than cases where Slay Poodle will be worth having spent karma on. Broken spell logic, functional game rule.

The TE vampires attacked en mass because they had those control chips implanted in them. The experiment in TE wasn't vampires with cyber, because in my mind, they could already do that, but was to get them walking in the daylight and not needing to drain essence(or as much) as shown by Warren at the end.

It was the control chips and how the vampires were stored (in airless containment tubes) that allowed them to be used in the first place. In the book Dr. Wake even thinks that was one of the other Doctor's more ingenious ideas. I believe that most corps. don't use cybervamps is the bad PR they would get from that.

Aren't shifters allergic to silver? Putting silver cyberware would kill them.

You can regenerate wounds caused by silver, it just lowers your chances to one-third (1-2 on a d6) instead of one-sixth (1 on a d6) to successfully regenerate if damage hits Deadly in less than one Combat Turn. Anything less than Deadly damage is instantly regenerated regardless of its source for some strange reason.

ok, fine, now, read the part about playing SECOND EDITION. ok, read that part? now, look on the same page (37) in 2ed Companion. "Shifters lose all special regenerative power while in human form." I believe is what it says. Do you just not like reading? or ar eyou just arguing for the sake of it?


EDIT: Oh, and, on the note of reading. Continue down the page (37) of 3ed Companion on the note of Cyberware Rejection. Now, when you finish reading and pull your foot out of your mouth, it specifically says that because of regeneration shifters cannot have cyberware, not only is it next to impiossible to do the surgery itself, even if successful, the cyberware is purged from their system.


And, this is the reason for the discussion as to wether or not Vampires can have cyber or not, since because of regeneration shifters cannot have cyberware. Is simply doesn't say anything baout vampires because they aren't actually supposed to be player characters, however, sometimes things happen (as in my firt post to this thread about being infected with HMHVV 2) and PCs become infected. If they gain regeneration, their body would regenerate, yes? or does it just 'not count'.

We had one character ino ur group get HMMVV and the player decided to let her become an NPC. We could porbably play it but no one wants to. Usually ghouls piss us off with the risk of infectino so we tend to shoot first when we see them. When in doubt, fire and acid every time.