Okay, since I've done so much to derail this thread, let's see if I can help put it back on track.

Here are the things that Kage started off with:

As a long-time player of SLA Industries, I quite like their skill divisions.

Handgun: Obvious, but also includes machine pistols and small SMG's fired on single shot.
Rifle: Includes shotguns and large SMG's fired on single shot.
Autofire: Any of the above fired on burst or autofire. Autofire is capped at the "other" skill level (eg: Greg Gunadept has Handgun 6, Rifle 4 and Autofire 5. He can fire his Scorpion single shot at 6 or auto at 5; he can fire his Ares Alpha at 4 both single shot and autofire).

I don't recall how gunnery-grade weapons were handled, but since Ops almost never got their hands on them it wasn't an issue anyway Off the top of my head, I'd tentatively offer categories of:

Direct Fire Gunnery: HMG's, dumbfire rockets, etc
Indirect Fire Gunnery: Mortars, etc.

Guided missiles would have their own innate skill level.

granted that shotguns aren't something i have much direct experience with: based on the facts and figures i've combed from the Intarwebs, i'd remove the whole hitting-multiple-targets thing from shotguns altogether, and then add it back in as an advanced optional rule later (if at all). yes, it's possible to hit multiple targets with a modified shotgun. but it's not something that should really come up often enough to warrant a section in the rules, mainly because people will take it to mean that shotguns can hit multiple targets all the time. they expect them to, because that's how shotguns work in movies, video games, and (especially) RPGs.

another thing: knockdown. if you do knockdown, i think it'd be more realistic (and just as simple) to base knockdown off of the damage of a weapon, rather than off the power. based on numbers that other people have done the math on, it doesn't seem to me that a bullet contains enough energy to physically shove someone off-balance to the point that they will fall over. a shotgun might, i guess, but the damage there is high enough that i think it's permissable to ignore power in favor of damage level.

I sort of agree with Raygun, kinda complicated for general use. Anything that's using more if/then statements in the rules that my vehicle maker, it's probably a bit too complicated.

Now, this idea is coming out of left field, from someone that knows next to nothing about guns, so ignore if it's too stupid, but what about breaking it into just "handgun" and long arm and SS, BF, and FA, based on a guns highest rate? and again a "misc" category for those..strange weapons.

So any sort of hand held gun (including like SMG's that are hand held), would fall under the Burst fire Hand held skill, specialization in the exact weapon, as per SR 3. Where as a "sniper" or sport rifle, would likely but the singleshot long arm skill.

It obviously has its holes, but I'm leaning towards combining Rifles and Assault Rifles into Rifles and all strange weapons into an Unconventional Arms skill with a better name, and then leaving well enough alone with the rest. One major concern is the possibility of creating a Rifles uber-skill. Opinions?

~J

I don't think that's a very big deal - Rifles (as opposed to ARs) don't see much use, at least from what I've seen, so all you're really doing is giving a runner who can use ARs the ability to snipe once in a blue moon.

As for an "Exotic Weapons" skill... What were you thinking of including in that? Gyrojet, spray weapons, lasers, eye lasers, etc.? I think the best way of dealing with that would be rolling them into exisiting skills, and just adjusting the stats/availability of the weapon to balance out the new ease of use. (Gyrojet, for example, really should be pistols/rifles, but it's just so absurdly powerful...)

I agree on the Unconventional arms skill, provided a specialization is required.

I don't agree with combining rifles and assault rifles, because they are two completely different ball parks.

SMGs and Assault rifles might work, however.

I've been playing Shadowrun for three years and can't remember ever calling for or being called to roll a Knockdown test... Are they really even worth considering for revision?

Also, a big no to making an "Exotic Weapons" skill require specialization. The less anomalies the better. And making all skills work this way seems more like rewrite country than revision.

I was browsing through some of my older notes earlier today and came across these house rules I was toying around for burst-fire weapons and whatnot. Thought I'd post them here to help inspire some ideas or something.

I'm not a big fan of "realism," prefering instead to focus on in-game believability, game play, and sticking with the abstract nature of the rules when possible. That said, I've also never been a fan of how burst-fire weapons were somehow better able to penetrate armor but did little to improve accuracy, and that was the heart of the reason why I cooked up these rules. I playtested them a little and they worked well for the most part, but there was some room for silly situations if you really tried to go out of your way to do it. I'm also a sucker for tactical options, so you'll see that in these rules as well. Oh, and I cut out what I had for shotguns because it was unfinished (since I never quite got around to doing the Suppressive Fire add-on in which I was going to include the majority of the shotgun rules).

I also had some notes about how I was going to revise the skill system that was mostly a throwback to the SR2 way of doing things (with both specializations and concentrations), but I don't think anyone would be very interested in that since it's significantly more abstract than the current system.

Anyway, enough babbling...


STAGING DAMAGE

Damage Codes are staged by +1 Damage Level for every two net successes on the Ranged Attack Test, to a maximum of Deadly damage. Every two net successes beyond that adds a box of deadly Over-Damage to the total. Stun damage is staged the same way, though every two net successes beyond Deadly Stun damage instead adds one box of Physical damage.

Note that these are based on net successes, meaning that staging doesn't occur until after an opponent has made any Dodge or Damage Resistance Tests to reduce the number of successes an attack has made. This is one of the reasons why the Power of an attack is not affected by these staging rules.


BURST-FIRE

BF shots are defined as a Simple Action that fires two- or three-round bursts per shot, and FA shots are defined as Complex Actions that fire four or more rounds per shot. Any character with a skill rating of 4 or higher can fire a BF shot from a FA weapon without having to change firing modes.

When using burst-fire, you have five options:

1. Increase the base Damage Level of the attack by one level for every three rounds fired (round down).
2. Add one bonus die to your Ranged Attack Test per round fired, to a maximum number equal to your base skill rating with that weapon. This option is not available when defaulting.
3. Increase the target number for an opponent's Dodge Test by +1 per round fired.
4. Reduce the effect of uncompensated recoil by -1 for every two rounds fired (round down).
5. Any combination of the previous four options.

Except in the case of the fourth option, recoil is calculated and handled using the standard rules. Note that the Power of the attack is not modified by these rules.


DAMAGE CODES

It is assumed that some Damage Codes (primarily the Power ratings for FA weapons like Assault Rifles) would be modified to a more appropriate value representing armor penetration to compensate for the lack of any Power-enhancing aspects in these burst-fire rules. Only different types of ammunition would influence Power under these rules.

What weapons would the "Unconventional" skill cover, though? I really don't think that what we want is a ranged version of the Staff skill, that covers all kinds of disparate weapons for no logical reason.

Gyrojets and Lasers should, logically speaking, fall into appropriate rifle and psitol categories. Same with dart pistols and so on. Not sure how that works out, balance-wise.

Eye weapons ought to require no skill, IMO, and allow you to just roll Quickness, or maybe Perception, instead (unless you want to specialize in them, of course) - especially considering how damn useless they are. If someone really wants to handicap himself by wasting essence of one, there's no need to punish them further.

What does that leave? Gun canes and spray weapons?

Okay. Thanks for all the input. Let me see if I can edit/streamline things and make them a bit less nonsensical.

Shotguns:
#1: Shot Ammo...+2 Power vs. unarmored targets, -1DL vs armored targets, and -1TN at Medium, Long, and Extreme ranges (due to spread).
#2: Flechette Ammo...see Raygun's rules here. Toss out choke rules for simplicity.
#3: When firing slugs, Shotguns can default to Assault Weapons.
#4: APDS (saboted slugs) ammo is available for shotguns.


Light Pistols:
Damage Code: 6M-7M
Conceal: Should be +2 or +1 better than heavy pistols
Ammo: Should be 3-5 rounds per magazine less than heavy pistols

Skill Breakdown

Pistols
Shotguns
Assault Weapons
Riflecraft
Machineguns
Launch Weapons
Unconventional Weapons


"Pistols" would cover your automatics (Ares Predator, Colt Manhunter, Fichetti Security 500, etc.), your revolvers (Ruger Super Warhawk, Cavalier Deputy, etc.), as well as any SMG used in SA mode and without a shoulder stock (ie. fired like you would fire a pistol).

"Shotguns" would cover all shotguns from your small breaching shotguns all the way to your large combat shotguns. For shotguns loaded with slug ammunition, the shooter can default to the Assault Weapons skill.

"Assault Weapons" covers all shoulder fired weapons classified as Machine Pistols, Submachine Guns, and Assault Rifles (and Carbines if you use Raygun's rules).

"Riflecraft" covers all semi-auto (SA) and single shot (SS) fire from weapons classified as Rifles, Sport Rifles, and Sniper Rifles, and all rifle fire using scopes.

"Machineguns" would cover everything from man portable LMGs (M249 SAW, Ingram Valiant) to heavy, vehicle mounted (manually fired) miniguns (Ares Vanquisher). If the weapon is fired through vehicle controls, use the Gunnery skill. If the weapon is fired by some guy in a turret or by a door gunner, then use the Machineguns skill. Direct contact with the gun/manual aiming = Machine Guns skill. Sensor-assisted = Gunnery.

"Launch Weapons" would cover everything from underbarrel grenade launchers to shoulder-fired ATGMs. Again, if such a weapon system is fired by the vehicle's control systems, then use Gunnery instead of Launch Weapons. Note: This doesn't include things like automatic grenade launchers, though (MK19, XM307, etc...). Those should use the Machine Guns skill.

"Unconventional Weapons" includes your strange weapons like gun canes, gyrojet weapons, and Laser weapons.


Oh, and I have never used Knockdown rules in SR. They are beyond asinine, since most small arms ammunition doesn't have anywhere near enough mass to physically knock down a human body. Falling after being shot is mostly a psychological thing, unless you take a hit to the brain or spinal cord.

Instead of Knockdown rules, I use Professional Rating. That indicates what level of damage a NPC needs to get hit with to make him fall.

Professional Rating 1:Will fall at a light wound or greater.
Professional Rating 2:Will fall at a moderate wound or greater.
Professional Rating 3:Will fall at a serious wound or greater.
Professional Rating 4:Will only fall with a deadly wound.

The skills I'm looking to get rid of are Bracer, Gun Cane, Eye Gun, and Oral Gun. If reasonable I'd also like to get rid of Gyrojet and possibly Laser Weapons; Spray Weapons I don't have so much of a problem with, as between the chemtech weapons, flamethrowers, and the fact that it's linked to Heavy Weapons I think it's sufficiently non-punishing.

One thing I'd forgotten: with Bracer and Gun Cane, current canon is to only be able to default to Pistols or Quickness. Might this be an argument to toss them in under Pistols?

~J

The Gun Cane and Bracer each only get one round, and the Bracer receives a flat +1 TN mod. I think that's punishment enough.

Oh, they also use Hold-Out ranges and deal 6L. You know, I might as well not bother considering them, because no one is ever going to use them.

I like the "let laser weapons default" idea. Definitely leaning towards that. More later.

~J

eh. i don't like the idea of tossing all unconventional weapons in together. honestly, if it were up to me, i simply wouldn't include skills for them at all--you'd always default to pistols/rifles/whatever. i mean, seriously--who the hell takes a cane gun or bracer gun to the range?

if I had one I would. but then I'm not normal, so it may be just me. I'd say throw em in with pistols, it makes as much sense as the current rules (i'm told that people who train extenivly with one type of pistol ie DAO semi auto have trouble when converting to a diffrent type ie single action revolver, but that's just a rumor)

D'oh!

I'll AE on leading moving targets. I didn't serve in a high-speed unit like Delta (just plain old Mech Inf) but you learn real fast that you can't hit moving targets without leading them.

However, I will say that the MILES gear in service today actually hurts soldiers' ability to engage moving targets. Since you are bascially just playing a glorified game of Laser Tag, you don't ever have to lead your targets. The more these guys train with MILES, the worse they get at target engagement out past 100 meters, or moving target engagement at any range.

But despite the differences, I think it would be generally very easy for a trained soldier to switch from using a firearm to a SR laser weapon. I would say simply dump laser weapons in with the other small arm skills, picking the exact skill that is relative to the size/configuration of the laser. I think either Pistols or Assault Weapons would be ideal.

and since most CQB involves point shooting instead of real aiming, it wouldn't make much diffrence. and leading doesn't make much diffrence under 100m with a rifle, as the time the bullet is in the air is very small. the leading is more to keep on target while you pull the trigger.

when I took a CQB course there wasn't time to aquire sights (although I think I may have been instictivly) so you point-shoot, basicly point the barrel at the target and pull the trigger.
as for lead, yes speed and size matter, I was meaning that at a human sized running speed, lead is more to keep on target as the instinct is to stop and pull the trigger, not follow through. but I'm definitly not a combat expert.

The average human can run ~18mph for short distances, and, to be pedantic, the M855 will have slowed by around 300fps over the first 100 meters (average velocity ~2900fps, might be less, is very unlikely to be more), so you'll have to take about the same lead (~3 feet, 0.9 meters) when firing at a human sprinting at 90 degrees to your line of fire at 100 meters. Not to mention those pesky Horse Shamans with Levitate or Cyberskates...

With the weapon I trained with, the flight time to 150 meters (most common range in our rifle training) was ~0.23 seconds, so of course my views on will be different from those who trained with an M16A2 and did a lot of MILES or similar training -- or indeed someone who trained with this.

standing corrected

[thinly veiled thread bump]
So Kage, where do you stand on what's been proposed so far, ruleswise?
[/thinly veiled thread bump]

Overview/discussion coming, just working on some Matrix-related stuff right at this instant.

~J

Then you could, instead of "Unconventional Weapons" have a "Ranged Cyber-Implant" skill to cover any and all silly weapons people might actually implant in their bodies, and be done with it.

Why do I just see a big human sammie with an LMG implanted in his arm, saying "This is my Ultra AC 5."

Then his bigger and more cybered ork sammie buddy steps up behind him with an MMG, saying "This is my Ultra AC 10."

Then their big-ass troll buddy who's so cybered he hums has a Panther AC in his arm, and says "Yo jus' know this is mu UV/AC 20, biiiiitch."

Then they all simultainously say "And anybody who makes a Battletech crack gets introduced to all three!"




And re: Guncanes/bracers only having one round, I just have two words.

"MetalStorm Technology"

Or is it spelled as "Metal Storm," in which case it'd be three words...

Review:

1) Shotguns are your new god

<In progress>

2) Pistols and their damage codes

<In progress>

3) Skill groupings

Laser weapons are still their own skill but are now grouped with other firearms (can default to/from).

Bracers and gun canes now use Pistols. There's a reason somewhere, I'm sure of it.

Rifles and Assault Rifles now use the same skill.

Eye guns, cyberguns, etc. now use Ranged Cyber-Implant Combat. I'm not entirely happy with this and would prefer to lump them with another skill, but I can't see one that makes sense.

The Blowgun is now under Projectile Weapons

That leaves us with a final skill list of:

• Quickness
  
  <begin linked skill block>
  
  Pistols
  Submachine Guns
  Rifles
  Shotguns
  Laser Weapons
  
  <end linked skill block>
  
  Ranged Cyber-Implant Combat
  
  
• Strength
  
  Throwing Weapons
  Projectile Weapons
  
  <begin linked skill block>
  
  Heavy Weapons
  Spray weapons
  
  <end linked skill block>
  
  
• Intelligence
  
  <begin linked skill block>
  
  Gunnery
  Launch Weapons
  
  <end linked skill block>

Questions/comments?

~J

Looks good so far.

Lovely! I would like to see Pistols and their damage codes worked out next... Always been a major gripe of mine. I have a binder full of theories, houserules, etc...

Shotguns, tentative suggestion:

Shot damage follows the current flechette rules (as it seems to me to make some vague sense there, in contrast with actual flechettes—I'm still not sure if I'm going to fix them or not, as while they're insane they're not unbalanced or difficult to use. We'll get to that, though). Choke is gone, shot now applies a flat -1 TN and can only hit one target.

Opinions? This (as far as I can tell) makes it simpler, more balanced, and encourages the uncybered to use shot…

~J

1. I like it - it's simple and sensible. One question, though - how does this -1 stack (or not stack) with smartlinks, laser sights and scopes (or vision magnification)? Logically, it should, but so should a scope and a smartlink, though for the sake of balance, they don't.

If it's meant to encourage the non-cybered to use it, perhaps it ought to not stack with smartlinks, for example.

2. For some reason, narcojet and other chemical delivery systems are on my mind... I think the current system - where a narcojet dart is resisted the same way getting sprayed with acid or a contact poison would be - makes very little sense, since the game does have rules for being injured with a poisoned weapon, which require that weapon to first actually inflict damage. The magical armor-piercing darts need to go.

1) It stacks with smartlinks, which by current canon are reduced to -1 (out of a usual -2 bonus), so it ends up being a null advantage with a smartlink. By canon laser sights and smartgoggles don't help, so it "stacks" with them for a net -1.

2) I agree. Any suggestions for them?

~J

As far as skill groupings are concerned, it almost seems that what you guys are looking for is something that cannot be addressed by one single skill per classification. It seems what really needs to be done is combinations of skills adding together for a single die pool on a roll. I know it's not the Shadowrun way, but it seems like that it might more accurately reflect what you're aiming for.

For example, limit each of these to (Linked Attribute)/2 for purposes of increasing karma costs (ie, gets obnoxious after 3 or so on average):

Group One:
Handguns (any small arm primarily braced by the hand)
Rifles (any small arm primarily braced by the shoulder)

Group Two:
Combat Range Aiming (<=250 meters; someone more knowledgable might argue a different range delineation, which is fine -- but you get the idea)
Sniper Range Aiming (>250 meters)

Group Three:
Automatic/Burst Fire
Single Shot/Semi Automatic Fire
Buckshot Ammo

Your die pool consists of the combination of your skills in each of the three skills. For example, you have Handguns (3), Combat Range Aiming (3), Single Shot (1), and you are firing in semi-automatic mode at a target range 80 meters with a handgun -- so you roll 7 dice against the target number. Additionally, if you do not have the correct skill in the appropriate group, you can roll the next-most appropriate skill that you do have in the group as a complimentary skill (ie, 2 successes on complimentary equals 1 on regular).

I know this is more complicated, and is kind of not in harmony with the typical Shadowrun system, but it seems to me that the level of realism you guys want is just incompatible with what the Shadowrun system is capable of delivering.

Regarding shotguns and buckshot style ammo, what about reducing damage level AND power by -1 each time it spreads, -1 TN per time it spreads (to a maximum of say, -3), to a minimum of (2)L, successes only stage on primary target, and non-targets suffer effects similar to suppressive fire (with number of successes to dodge equal to remaining power/2)?

Gosh, that's complicated. But shotguns do blast an area, after all.

EDIT: Hmm, on second thought, why not make shotguns work just like supressive fire PERIOD, with the number of "bullets" in the area being power, or something like that?

Though I'm not a fan of that idea, that does bring up a question: shotguns and suppressive fire. Should it be able to be used for this, and if so how?

If we're going to allow it to be used, I'd say each shotgun blast requires three successes to dodge but can only be allocated to a one-meter area. As a result, a Semiauto shotgun would be able to effectively suppress a one-meter area while a burst-fire shotgun would be able to suppress up to a three-meter area as desired. Alternately, we could kick it down to two successes per blast and allow semiauto and burst-fire to both fire twice (obviously it would be as a part of a larger suppressive fire action).

Any thoughts?

~J

I dunno about that. The whole idea of supressive fire working like that is that you are spraying the area with bullets until the end of the turn. You can't do that with a non-full-auto weapon.

I think delaying action with a shotgun can achieve a close enough effect, and still ends up being more realistic.