To be honest, I'm inclined to just make them semi-automatic. I could be convinced away from that, though—anyone else want to voice an opinion?

~J

I like the idea of any weapon that has to be or can be manually cycled to require an extra simple action between shot.

The problem with making something SS (or the equivalent) is that after someone fires their last round and reloads you aren't forcing them to throw the bolt again after they pop the new mag in, which is less fun.

If I'm going to go ahead and commit to a bolt action weapon I want every bit of historical panache I can muster from that choice.

While I prefer Kage's idea of making these weapons SA for convenience, as an optional rule use Fortune's idea of having a free action to ready the next shot. IIRC after firing the last round in a magazine of a semi-auto pistol you have to release the slide before you can fire again. Could this be done without a free action if the gun is smartlinked?

I would strongly suggest making this an optional rule however. I know my gaming group would find it irritating.

This has got me thinking, it's a way to nerf shotguns appropriately, by making the lower-costing shotguns pump action, and therefore harder to just plug away at some-one with 10S damage, when in many situations, an SMG or even a semi-auto pistol would hold a big advantage.

*whew* finished reading the whole thread and I've made a list of issues that have come up. I'll try to list them in an easily readable format so people can vote or whatever. These aren't just issues from this thread, but the main thread. Comments and corrections are welcome.

Agreed upon rules:
Ranged combat
- Remove called shots except for style
A) Skills
- Laser weapons skill is in the Firearms category
- Bracers and gun canes use pistols skill
- Rifles and assault rifles use the same skill
- Eye-guns, cyberguns, etc. use Ranged Cyber-implant Combat
- Blowgun is under Projectile Weapons
B) Ammo
- Armor-piercing rounds are only available in HP and heavier varieties
- AV rounds are only available in rifle-class or larger weapons
C) Guns
- Remove shotgun 'choke' rules
- Grenades that decrease in power by 1/m are defensive, 1/.5m are offensive

Under dispute changes:
A)Anything less than a heavy pistol is useless
1) Increase hold-outs to 6M at minimum
2) Decrease Heavy pistols (and SMGs) to 5, 7, or 9M maximum
3) Decrease pistols & SMGs to 7M max, ass. rifles to 11M max, sport/battle rifles to 11S, increase armor values

B) Rifle penetration
1) Rifles divide non-hardened armor value in half (quarter with APDS)
i) hardened armor acts like vehicle armor, ignores bonuses from AP. APDS results in no reduction in DL against hardened armor
2) Each weapon lowers barrier and armor ratings by a flat amount (like -4/-5). Special ammo generally modifies this rating.
3) Rifles subtract a flat amount from armor ratings

C) Better chemical rules, so pepper spray isn't more debilitating than a bullet to the chest

D) Define how armor affects chemical delivery systems like narcojet
1) Narcojet must inflict damage for poison delivery to work
i) Set power to that of light pistols, damage of L

E) Fix shotguns
1) Shotguns CANNOT hit multiple opponents
2) Everyone other than the main target caught in a blast takes at most Moderate damage
3) -2 power, -1 DL per range category (8D/6S/4M/2L), allow the -1TN to stack with SL & laser
4) Choke is set at 1 (or .5)m spread. Alter range categories, including a penalty to power based on range
5) Can reduce TN by 1 by reducing power by 1, to a max of -2 to both
6) Shot uses flechette rules, flat -1TN to hit, can only hit 1 target
7) Reduce TN to hit, but greatly decrease power (opt. no power decrease vs. unarmored opponents)
+2 power vs unarmored opponents, -1DL vs armored, -1TN at medium+ ranges
9) Make all clothing or armor hardened vs. shot
10) Invert burst staging rules, every -3 to power reduces DL by 1
11) Every 3m of spread reduces DL by 1, damage never stages up
X still doesn't work for high-powered guns
12) Make them high powered holdouts (8L damage)
13) Add a third ammo type, real flechettes, combining shot and AP rules
X Can this be staged up? If yes, overpowerful, if no, not special

F) CQB rules
1) No change
2) CP is reduced by the difference between the weapon's conceal rating and the Terrain Threshold (open: 0, tight: 3, restricted: 5)
3) Reduce CP based on the type of weapon in question

G) Some rifles (and shotguns) are bolt or pump action, should they be SS or SA?
1) Action makes shot SA
2) Make manual advancement a free action
3) Action makes shot SS
4) Perhaps change the Remington rifles into non-bolt actions, then offer SS bolt and pump guns as new weapons?

H) Autofire problems
1) Recoil modifiers change how many shots in a burst hit, as opposed to TN to hit with entire burst
2) Auto (and burst) fire can be done 5 ways, at shooters option:
1. DL increased per 3 rnds, as standard
2. +1 die to your ranged attack test per round fired to a max of your base skill
3. Increase dodge TN by +1 per round
4. Reduce uncompensated recoil by -1 per 2 rnds
5. Any combination of the above
(In all but the fourth, recoil is calculated as normal. The Power is not modified in any case.)
3) Roll each shot individually



Odds & Ends (unresolved, no suggestions):
1-Remove conceal penalty on SL, laser sight, shock pad
2-SL does not require you pull the trigger to fire
3-Disallow laser sights when using a scope
4-Allow dual-wielding smartlink action!
5-Remove the current gun creation system
6-Scopes require an Aim action to use
7-SL2 reduces launched grenade scatter
8-When hit by a deadly wound, use the attackers successes to stage the power up, then roll to soak, allowing the defender to survive with only 2 successes
9-Remove flechettes, except in shotguns
10-Knock-down rules, if used at all, should be based off damage, not power (since it isn't power of the bullet that knocks you down but a reaction to the damage it causes)
11-Remove/define caseless
12-More available modifiers, especially cover
13-Armor layering needs to, at minimum, be formally defined.
14-Monocular vs. binocular vision - remove monocular penalties for ranged weapons?
15-Regroup launch weapons skills into direct and indirect fire
16-Change offensive grenade damage to -3/m?
17-Smoke grenades expand at a set number of m/turn


*whew*

All of my tabbing disappeared

To respond to my own post...

A - hold-outs - I like giving all weapons with a .22 bullet or higher an M damage code at minimum. If someone makes a bullet smaller than a .22, well then maybe L would be appropriate. Ammo capacity, those few points of power, concealability and available modification slots should be the only differences between an HP and hold-out.

B - I like 3. As raygun pointed out, the Power value currently addresses two very different statistics. By simply saying long-arms (anything using the rifle, gunnery or heavy weapons skill) reduces armor values by a flat -2 would be straight forward and easy to remember. It allows for armor penetration without going as far as Raygun's rules, and without making rifles incredibly deadly against everyone.

C - I think this needs some discussion!

D - I agree with the given suggestion, it makes sense to me.

E - 2, 4 and 10. Make them powerful and they fulfill a specific role, without making them hugely uber.

F - 1 - GM's discretion only

G - 4, minimizes rules changes while allowing for flavor

H - no opinion

1-(remove conceal modifier of some mods) Yes
2-(SL allows triggerless fire) Yes
3-(No laser/scope mix) Yes
4-(dual-wield SL) - offer a partial bonus, but not -2 to both
5-(nix gun creation) no opinion
6-(scopes require aim action) Yes
7-(SL2 reduces scatter) No opinion, but SL2 does need to offer some bonus
8-(Reorder damage/soak rolls to reduce mortality) no opinion
9-(Remove flechettes) no opinion
10-(knock-down based on damage) remove knock-down
11-(Remove/define caseless) No
12-(define cover modifiers better) Yes
13-(Define armor layering) Yes
14-(Monocular vs. binocular) no opinion
15-(launch weapons into direct and indirect fire) Yes
16-(offensive grenade damage to -3/m?) no opinion
17-(Smoke grenades expand slower) Yes

We agreed to get rid of called shots?

Herald - yeah, you suggested it around page 3.

Psycho - Kage did, and he's' the boss. I would actually suggest the following modification:

Called shots are against a particular part or component of a person or vehicle. They add a modifier of +4 to +8, at GM's discretion. In the case of vehicles, they may avoid armor, when firing against an unarmored component such as tires or an antenna. In the case of metahumans, it may cause a Wound Effect (as per M&M) (or another similar effect to simulate shooting out knees, shooting guns out of hands, etc.) That is all, they never stage up damage, they never ignore armor (except against vehicles, as stated). This keeps vehicles from being truly and totally invincible, allows for cinematic shots we all love, but isn't unbalancing and cuts down on "AVS called shot to the head!!!111!"

Some other rules changes:
You can fire as many bullets per turn as the gun has ammo, however only a maximum of 10 will hit or may be used for suppressive fire purposes - no change, just flavor so I can yell out that I empty the mag.

This one is listed already, but probably deserves a letter - "More available modifiers, especially cover"

Hard and soft cover modifiers should be listed. In addition, modifiers should be made for size and speed of the target. Size could, hypothetically, shift range modifiers. Speed adds some modifier which doubles when the attacker uses a scope. Tell me if this line of thought isn't worth investigating.

IIRC, we got rid of called shots except called shots for special effect (like what you describe). The shot would never ignore armor, period, but it might go against the tire's armor instead of the vehicle's (or the antenna's barrier rating, or whatever).

~J

Alright, "for effect" was a little poorly defined for my taste is all.

Glad to know we're on the same page though. I'll modify my notes.

Edit: I modified my choice for the shotguns. I agree with Herald. The setup based on range categories requires you know the range cut-offs for shotguns, which means referring to the range table again. That's a step we can avoid. Reducing DL every three drops in power means we don't have to remember anything, just do math, and it's internally consistent with burst fire rules, which is a plus.

Another suggestion made elsewhere...

Two SA shots in a phase against the same target should be counted as a single, two-round burst. This removes the mindset of shooting, waiting to see the result, then shooting again, and forces you to plan the entire action tactically, plus makes more sense considering it basically is exactly that, a two-round burst.

To my mind, the shoot-observe-shoot paradigm is desirable—it's what distinguishes grenadelinked grenades (which detonate at the end of the seabird, and thus are not available to have their effects observed for the second shot), and is reasonable considering the relatively slow rate of fire of SR combatants.

~J

Through some unknown crossing of the synapses in my brain, I had originally written "tern" instead of "turn". I decided to run with it.

~J

In my games, for realism, when a character performs a headshot on a character who is not wearing a helmet, it bypasses armor AND stages damage up. Although I understand the game destabilizing effects.

Disagree with making it a 2-shot burst fire. Too often I've seen people shoot 2 seperate targets with those 2 shots. We don't play a shoot-assess-shoot, we play 'declare actions' first, no changing actions in the middle of your turn.

A 2 round burst is almost always less useful than just firing one shot or taking a penalty and trying to hit a second target. However, getting a 6 round burst with that SA/BF weapon may be the difference between the twink having a light wound and a serious.

Combining shooting actions is a benefit if it increases the power and/or damage code significantly, with single shots it's just a waste of a bullet (unless you changed the burst rules somewhere that I missed).

nezumi, here are my thoughts on your list of under dispute changes:

A) 1

B) 3 the amount subtracted from armour ratings, say -3 OR damage code divided by 3 round down?

C) Yes, have to think more on this though

D) Yes i) Yes

E) Tempted to say 'RUN AWAY!'. I know nada about shotguns. I always use slug shots to avoid the problem.

F) 2

G) 2

H) 1

Odds & Ends
1- Yes, except laser sight
2- Agreed
3- Agreed
4- Logically no, but it's so cool I would allow it, at the same target only!
5- Awwwww. Flawed yes, but designing guns is cool!
6- Agreed
7- Agreed
8- Agreed
9- Agreed
10- Should be damaged based
11- Caseless should be better defined
14- The monocular penalties should be removed

Others I haven't decided/thought of an answer.

It's different for targets with armor 2 or less. I'm not sure if that's an important demographic, but it means they don't have the same effect.

~J

Yeah, there's also all that. Barriers, too.

~J

Almost sounds like what variable staging was supposed to represent. Instead of just a rule that rifles work against 3 less of the targets armor, how about introducing the possibility of other things with different default armor penetration. For nostalgia, we can toss that in like the variable staging in the damage codes.

9M would still be 9M because a Predator doesn't get a piercing bonus, but some rifles may be 6M3 to indicate the 3 point armor reduction and an experimental rail-needle may be 2L10.
My other question is, does the hardened armor have to beat the power before penetration effect or after?

I don't think the variable staging really has to do with the same sort of effect. You don't have to hit far better with a rifle to score a kill -- and if you do, that is easily simulated with Power and DL.

For hardened armor, it should definitely be armor rating modified by the penetration compared to effective Power.

I was testing out the shotgun rules where all armor counts as hardened (so if the shotgun doesn't overcome the armor rating, it does nothing, keeping mind that shot already has the -2 to power due to being flechette). It occurs to me that the problem here is the weapon either does a base of Serious damage, or none at all. So my shotgunner had 10 successes against two fellows, one with 8 points of armor, one with 7. The one with 7 had to resist 2D damage, with 8 extra successes. The fellow with 1 more point of armor didn't have to resist anything. A bit of a harsh dichotomy. Thoughts?

Do we want to do anything about the fact that Shotguns are all semi-automatic? What happened to pump action!? Did they stop making pump shotguns in 2010?

Also, while flipping through the Firearm Design rules, you cannot create an semi-automatic sniper rifle. Don't semi-automatic sniper rifles exist irl? Do we want to do anything about that?

What about the rule of no Smartgoggles/Smartlinks/Laser sights etc when dual-wielding pistols or smgs. It makes sense that you can't use a scope, but the rest don't seem unreasonable at all. Should we scrap it?

Which firearm design rules are you referring to?
Raygun's has sniper rifles start as SA, and the CC guide has sniper rifles start out as SA.

Was there some other guide mentioned that I missed?

Oops. I read those wrong when I was flipping through. It said Design Options: Firing Mode (Single Shot only).

I thought it meant you could only design them to be single shot. My bad.

What *I* think would make sniper rifles more fun would be if bolt action rifles had a small bonus to hitting targets at Extreme range.

Sorry, I don't have the book with me, but I could have sworn that you could use smartguns with dual pistols, but it would only apply to 1 of the pistols, and only if you were firing them both at the same time instead of taking turns... It's possible we just house ruled it, but our speed-character has a smartlink with 2 induction pads, and usually uses one like suppressive fire and aims with the other using the smartlink. o.O

However, if it's true that you can't use a smartlink at all while dual-wielding, that rule should be changed. Since Smartlinks were defined as adding crosshairs into your vision, obviously you should only get the bonus for 1 of the guns though per simple-action.

I say that the catalog had the wrong product name and stats for the description and image that were on the page. The wageslave responsible for the editing has been sacked and the catalog provider has spend thousands on damage control to try to get everyone to forget about that incident.

Unfortunately, due to a human resources bungle, he was hired to write the weapon descriptions for the Remingtons in the 3rd edition BBB aswell.

I think MA (manual action) should be single shot, and loading another round (whether through a sliding bolt or pump) should be another simple action. I'd be in favour of changing the Remington 990 (infact, anything with remington in the title!) to MA, and maybe even breaking from the description of the Defiance T-250 and making that pump aswell.

Shotguns as they are are totally deadly. Having some in pump evens it a little bit. But it doesn't change the fact that the SA/BF shotguns are instadeathmachines.

I think we should allow the smartlink bonus to apply to both weapons (as long as you're using two cables or induction pads). The penalty is already in that you suffer stacking recoil. On that note, fixed and folding stocks should provide no recoil compensation when dual wielding.

Then we need to change something with the difficulty of shooting. Dual wielding should be powerful, but your hit rate should be lower.

Some things we could introduce:
-Recoil on the first shot
-Double all uncompensated recoil (hell, we do it with BF shotguns)
-Range reduced. Short becomes medium, Medium becomes long etc.

IMO, the approach is to weaken Ambidexterity, then make Smartlinks the best way to compensate for the penalties. Under the "active" interpretation of Smartlink operation, which is the only one that allows the limited simsense rig and Essence cost to make sense, that's the most rational approach.

~J